Why not just add a store system?

[FrostDragoon]

Just now, JuicyPop said:

If you're going to argue playtime, then my opinion is at least non-inferior to yours. 

Try again. 

I was referring to that troll right above me. It wasn't directed at you. I just happen to think you're wrong because you make the same points I've debunked for years and don't have the motivation to keep repeating to the people who can't/won't understand them.

[JuicyPop]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I was referring to that troll right above me. It wasn't directed at you. I just happen to think you're wrong because you make the same points I've debunked for years and don't have the motivation to keep repeating to the people who can't/won't understand them.

It doesn't even matter that you were directing it at another player since the principle you were trying to establish would be generalizable. You tried to use playtime and choice of platform as a measure of the credence of an argument so therefore you must necessarily consider those aspects for everyone. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by JuicyPop

[FrostDragoon]

Actually, it was just because he was trying to imply that I was somehow new or don't know how the game works. Truth is, I have PC and PS4 accounts, both in the mid 20's MR, and I've seen the same stupid arguments he's been making across several other games with nearly identical trade systems. You took the wrong meaning from my post, so no--it's not generalizable in the way you think it.

[JuicyPop]

2 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Actually, it was just because he was trying to imply that I was somehow new or don't know how the game works. Truth is, I have PC and PS4 accounts, both in the mid 20's MR, and I've seen the same stupid arguments he's been making across several other games with nearly identical trade systems. You took the wrong meaning from my post, so no--it's not generalizable in the way you think it.

And you misunderstood the context of his second paragraph. It was meant to say that these aspects of the economy should be known by practically any player that's been at it for a few days even if they don't actively acknowledge it. 

"I should only need one copy of this frame; therefore it would figure that supply within the economy should swell." It would only be later when that player learns of Baro that they would understand how that is mitigated. 

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, JuicyPop said:

"I should only need one copy of this frame; therefore it would figure that supply within the economy should swell." It would only be later when that player learns of Baro that they would understand how that is mitigated. 

It isn't that I don't understand why he thinks that. He's simply wrong to think that. It may be true for some frames, for example, that have very narrow options with how they want to build, but the more build-flexible frames could conceivable justify two copies of it if the player likes it enough--this being due to the way forma works.

Furthermore, if you only have one copy of certain mods, and you only have it maxed out, you severely limit your build options. For example, I have 3 different copies of Adaptation--r4, 46, and r8. I have no need for a maxed out one because of its mechanics. Same with the various ability mods--it's good to have some that are maxed out, and some that are lower rank.

He also confuses cause and effect here. It's primarily because slots are limited (paywalled, actually) that people take that minimalist approach. WIth a proper AH and access to plat on a more regular basis--even if it's not so much at a time--this problem goes away and the justification for multiple copies of things becomes more apparent.

These are things he would know if he truly understood the system and had been playing for more than a year.

Edited September 19, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

"Welcome to Warframe" from a console peasant when I've been playing this game for 6 1/2 years... This is why I don't take you seriously. Also, not only are you entirely wrong about what the model is, you're doubly wrong about its impact on the economy.

 

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

It isn't that I don't understand why he thinks that. He's simply wrong to think that. It may be true for some frames, for example, that have very narrow options with how they want to build, but the more build-flexible frames could conceivable justify two copies of it if the player likes it enough--this being due to the way forma works.

Furthermore, if you only have one copy of certain mods, and you only have it maxed out, you severely limit your build options. For example, I have 3 different copies of Adaptation--r4, 46, and r8. I have no need for a maxed out one because of its mechanics. Same with the various ability mods--it's good to have some that are maxed out, and some that are lower rank.

He also confuses cause and effect here. It's primarily because slots are limited (paywalled, actually) that people take that minimalist approach. WIth a proper AH and access to plat on a more regular basis--even if it's not so much at a time--this problem goes away and the justification for multiple copies of things becomes more apparent.

These are things he would know if he truly understood the system and had been playing for more than a year.

Oh Baron VonEpeen, you have been standing outside in the sun for too long, for you are obviously delusional, especially if you think that flashing your epeen by calling me a console peasant is going impress anyone outside of your middleschool. 

 

 

You think that having several copies of certain mods for your builds invalidates "buy once, own forever" as the model? But you picked a Mod that you have three unique copies of? 🙄

Look at how easy it is to dismiss your argument:

Q:"Why don't you have multiple R4 copies?" 

A: "Because you only need the one, duh". 

 

And for the record, are you limited by the number of slots available for copies of Adaptation? Doesn't seem so, right? So that part of the argument is out as well. 

Next time put your brain into gear, before putting your mouth into motion, and maybe you won't end up embarrassing yourself by making such ridiculous comments after playing for over 6 years. (Of course that would have negated the majority of your posts on this thread.) 

 

 

In your myopic greed, you think that the auction house will make selling easier, it won't. It will however drive prices of most items down, which would make purchasing easier, except for the simple fact that most people first need to earn enough plat to buy the things they want. And when everything they're able to sell is going for a tiny fraction of the current price, because some fools insisted that they wanted an easy way to flood the market, earning that plat will be so much harder. 

That's literally what someone was trying to show you about 4 pages ago but you just couldn't understand what was being presented:

 

I mean come on that's written as though they were trying to make it simple enough for a small child to grasp the concept and you some how still managed to miss the point they were making. 

 

Seriously if you have been active in threads where people have been making the same points for years and haven't been able to figure out what everyone has been telling you, maybe you really should go do at least a basic economics course so that you can get a clue. 

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And for the record, are you limited by the number of slots available for copies of Adaptation? Doesn't seem so, right? So that part of the argument is out as well. 

You just proved my point without even realizing it, because I was highlighting the difference between being limited by slots and not.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

You just proved my point without even realizing it, because I was highlighting the difference between being limited by slots and not.

No bud, I proved it invalid.

You literally pointed out that you only have one of each unique rank, despite having an unlimited number of slots. 

Do try to keep up. 

[FrostDragoon]

I have 3 of the mod--not counting the ones I sold. Are you really so stupid?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I have 3 of the mod--not counting the ones I sold. Are you really so stupid?

Three which are each unique because they are different ranks, as you were kind enough to point out. So no, not stupid at all. 

Let's repeat the part you missed, shall we?

22 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Look at how easy it is to dismiss your argument:

Q:"Why don't you have multiple R4 copies?" 

A: "Because you only need the one, duh". 

 

🙄

[FrostDragoon]

You really think that makes any kind of point in your favor? That's asinine. I have 3 copies of Adaptation, and I could conceivable have 1 or 2 more for further flexibility if I want. You are either a bad troll or terribly stupid, but in either case, it's obvious you don't have an argument to make that can stand up to basic facts.

[Grahark]

20 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Does that game's model involve 'repair' systems? Where you're required to repair or replace the items you own? 

Do you even have the first clue as to what purpose such a system originally served? Are you able to grasp how such a fundamental difference affects in game economies? 

And yet you think that you are qualified to call someone a noob? You should be embarrassed. Seriously, you lot really need to go get a basic grasp of the concepts you're trying to discuss, instead of digging yourself any deeper into the muck. 

Guild Wars 2 has an in game repair system for items. For each and every level of items you acquire as you progress. Like I stated, "Research Noob" kind of relative at this point. It is also a Popular Free to Play game whose community boasts Fashion as it's end game. 

[FrostDragoon]

His over-simplified concept is that the lack of degradation means people don't keep buying more stuff... simple fool.

[Althaline]

3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

His over-simplified concept is that the lack of degradation means people don't keep buying more stuff... simple fool.

And yet that over-simplified concept works, because Warframe's market is incredibly simple. Every item is a non-degrading luxury item, and thus there is finite demand for an infinite supply. It doesn't take a genius to see how that's going to end.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, Grahark said:

Guild Wars 2 has an in game repair system for items. For each and every level of items you acquire as you progress. Like I stated, "Research Noob" kind of relative at this point. It is also a Popular Free to Play game whose community boasts Fashion as it's end game. 

 

Jebas, you're slow.

That's literally the point I was making. Repair and replacement enforces demand. That sustains the economy in a way that is alien to Warframe where we don't have that. 

The same applies to Eve which has degradation built in to the point where in-game insurance agencies are/were a thing. 

 

Like seriously, you guys are making it look like everyone supporting auction houses isn't just a step behind, but flat out stuck at the start of the race trying to figure out which way to go. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I've been playing Online games like this, with varying systems, all having "Auction Houses" (meaning an automated method of exchanging items, not requiring the direct interaction of buyer and seller, allowing a searchable list of items to find and purchase items - not bidding against other people in a timed races to beat the clock like Ebay)

Some had item degradation, others didn't. Some allowed in-game currency for trade, others required premium. Some had limited listing times and costs associated with listing, or limited numbers of items you could post, or a combination, or none.

None of the games with Auction Houses were ruined by them. For example, I played FFXI online for over a decade, and it had an in-game auction house that RMT tried (and failed) to ruin. They limited the number of items you could have on auction at any given time. It cost in-game currency as a tax to list items if you used the automated searchable AH. If you didn't want to pay a tax, you could set up a bazaar (like Maroo's place, except your shop had buy-out prices, and people could buy while you were out to dinner or whatever... they just had to find you. People congregated in certain areas to make that easier.) I never used the personal markets, I used the AH for everything. In my entire time there, I easily made in-game currency, and while it took effort, I was able to acquire all the really high-end items that I needed.

Warframe has several factors going for it that make it even better for a market, such as (but not limited to) the transaction currency being a premium, limited currency, that cannot be created infinitely in-game. Limited trades per day. Steady in-flux of new desired things (frames and primes and weapons and cosmetics and tennogen). Vaulted items that new players cannot access without trading with players that acquired the items before they were taken out of circulation unless they're willing to wait for an unvaulting. Currency sinks that drain the premium currency out of the player market by way of cosmetics, slots, direct warframe and weapon purchases, boosters, etc. AND MORE (I'm just tired of listing).

There is no argument that will compel me to change my mind and see doom and gloom with the introduction of an AH into this system. The 3rd party marketplace ALMOST fills the entire functionality of an in-game marketplace, with the additional step of having to use an outside-of-game interface, and having to be online at the same time as the other trader, and being willing to stop playing to make the transaction. Making it an official part of the game's interface will polish the game as a finished product, rather than leaving it in the hands of players to fill such a gaping hole. It's a lazy way out, and if the market place ever crashed or was no longer hosted by those players, DE would be in trouble.

There is no argument I can make that will convince doomsayers that the AH will not ruin the game for them (because many doomsayers are exploiting the system's lack of clarity and ease of haggling and scamming by buying at super low prices because people don't know better, and selling higher because people don't know better - otherwise known as flipping and defended as a perfectly fine thing to do, and not really playing the game - acquiring their own goods through their own effort, and then selling what they personally don't need.) and it certainly would ruin the game for them...

Others simply don't want to risk the loss of value of their stockpile that currently holds an inflated value due to false scarcity artificially inflating values.

I don't want to even touch the stupid topic of Rivens.

And so, I'd rather not get into debates with people, taking far too much effort for no results. (it's honestly infuriating to try to reason with some of these people, and I don't need that sort of frustration in my head.)

Edited September 19, 2019 by (PS4)AyinDygra
typo

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

And yet that over-simplified concept works, because Warframe's market is incredibly simple. Every item is a non-degrading luxury item, and thus there is finite demand for an infinite supply. It doesn't take a genius to see how that's going to end.

That's where people are wrong, though. I already pointed out how demand could be expanded, but it too is already infinite, because people join/quit the game all the time. This is why his simple model doesn't work.

Edit:

I should add that there's an infinite demand for plat as well, because there are so many things to buy with it, and some things are basically infinitely sellable if you know what to look for--they too have infinite demand.

Edited September 19, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[(PSN)thegarada]

6 hours ago, Grahark said:

Guild Wars 2 has an in game repair system for items. For each and every level of items you acquire as you progress. Like I stated, "Research Noob" kind of relative at this point. It is also a Popular Free to Play game whose community boasts Fashion as it's end game. 

Guild Wars 2 indeed is very similar to WF. It too has limited gearing, it has F2P (though it is not full F2P) and end game is mostly fashion. It also has the most robust market system, and unsurprisingly, most stable game economy. DE could learn a thing or two.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

I've been playing Online games like this, with varying systems, all having "Auction Houses" (meaning an automated method of exchanging items, not requiring the direct interaction of buyer and seller, allowing a searchable list of items to find and purchase items - not bidding against other people in a timed races to beat the clock like Ebay)

Some had item degradation, others didn't. Some allowed in-game currency for trade, others required premium. Some had limited listing times and costs associated with listing, or limited numbers of items you could post, or a combination, or none.

None of the games with Auction Houses were ruined by them. For example, I played FFXI online for over a decade, and it had an in-game auction house that RMT tried (and failed) to ruin. They limited the number of items you could have on auction at any given time. It cost in-game currency as a tax to list items if you used the automated searchable AH. If you didn't want to pay a tax, you could set up a bazaar (like Maroo's place, except your shop had buy-out prices, and people could buy while you were out to dinner or whatever... they just had to find you. People congregated in certain areas to make that easier.) I never used the personal markets, I used the AH for everything. In my entire time there, I easily made in-game currency, and while it took effort, I was able to acquire all the really high-end items that I needed.

Warframe has several factors going for it that make it even better for a market, such as (but not limited to) the transaction currency being a premium, limited currency, that cannot be created infinitely in-game. Limited trades per day. Steady in-flux of new desired things (frames and primes and weapons and cosmetics and tennogen). Vaulted items that new players cannot access without trading with players that acquired the items before they were taken out of circulation unless they're willing to wait for an unvaulting. Currency sinks that drain the premium currency out of the player market by way of cosmetics, slots, direct warframe and weapon purchases, boosters, etc. AND MORE (I'm just tired of listing).

There is no argument that will compel me to change my mind and see doom and gloom with the introduction of an AH into this system. The 3rd party marketplace ALMOST fills the entire functionality of an in-game marketplace, with the additional step of having to use an outside-of-game interface, and having to be online at the same time as the other trader, and being willing to stop playing to make the q1qtransaction. Making it an official part of the game's interface will polish the game as a finished product, rather than leaving it in the hands of players to fill such a gaping hole. It's a lazy way out, and if the market place ever crashed or was no longer hosted by those players, DE would be in trouble.

There is no argument I can make that will convince doomsayers that the AH will not ruin the game for them (because many doomsayers are exploiting the system's lack of clarity and ease of haggling and scamming by buying at super low prices because people don't know better, and selling higher because people don't know better - otherwise known as flipping and defended as a perfectly fine thing to do, and not really playing the game - acquiring their own goods through their own effort, and then selling what they personally don't need.) and it certainly would ruin the game for them...

Others simply don't want to risk the loss of value of their stockpile that currently holds an inflated value due to false scarcity artificially inflating values.

I don't want to even touch the stupid topic of Rivens.

And so, I'd rather not get into debates with people, taking far too much effort for no results. (it's honestly infuriating to try to reason with some of these people, and I don't need that sort of frustration in my head.)

How about if I mention that the advent of the 3rd party website that's apparently only used by a fraction of the players, had an effect on the price of items in the game. People still complain occasionally, blaming warframe market for not being able to charge ridiculous prices. 

Now, imagine the effect that a universal system will produce. Will it crash overnight? I can't say, but the fact that it will crash isn't a question. 

 

BTW, while poisoning a well is easy, it doesn't really work when I point out that I hardly ever sell items, but I still oppose an auction house as proposed. 

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

That's where people are wrong, though. I already pointed out how demand could be expanded, but it too is already infinite, because people join/quit the game all the time. This is why his simple model doesn't work.

Edit:

I should add that there's an infinite demand for plat as well, because there are so many things to buy with it, and some things are basically infinitely sellable if you know what to look for--they too have infinite demand.

Again you prove that you have no frigging clue what you are on about. Go educate yourself and stop being an embarrassment to your country's school system. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Now, imagine the effect that a universal system will produce. Will it crash overnight? I can't say, but the fact that it will crash isn't a question. 

I didn't argue that the prices wouldn't crash... in fact, that's almost a given, due to their current values being based on false scarcity. However, I think it will end up being better for the game in the long run. More people will be engaged in trading, more people who are "F2P" will have access to slots and have reason to play the game and make stuff to fill those slots, and then have things that they want to customize with fashionframe, and a percentage higher than we see currently, will buy plat to do just that. I think this will be more than we see currently buying plat to buy the overpriced items in the current market, and more of the plat will be going directly back to DE in the form of plat sinks like cosmetics and slots, reducing the amount of plat in circulation between players, and potentially bringing the stupid riven market down into reasonable levels.

So, I think it's good thing. Others think it's a bad thing... I'm just bringing up my point of view, and hoping DE sees the same conclusions I come to.

 

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

However, I think it will end up being better for the game in the long run. More people will be engaged in trading, more people who are "F2P" will have access to slots and have reason to play the game and make stuff to fill those slots, and then have things that they want to customize with fashionframe, and a percentage higher than we see currently, will buy plat to do just that.

Strong disagree. You see the F2P Tenno will have a significantly harder time earning slots. Recall that a drop in trade value doesn't mean a drop in slot/cosmetic prices. 

It's why we have a tougher time progressing on consoles vs PC Tenno. 

I agree that a higher percentage will need to buy plat, but that's because they're not going to get it any other way. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

And this is why we are at an impass.

Currently, people who don't trade at all due to 3rd party website or not wanting to use Trade Chat, see 0 plat from ANYTHING they have (as I said earlier). Only prime parts are worth ducats to them. That's important because...

With an in-game Market, they can at least get 1 plat per prime piece, 20 relics for a warframe slot, 12 for a couple weapon slots... I'd be willing to grind for that. And I wouldn't be willing to sell a prime part for less than 1 plat. I'd rather have the ducats. There are other things to sell as well, like Invasion weapon pieces, Ayatan statues (though much less value recently), and mods.

One of the things that almost turned me off from the game was not having enough slots, and that made the entire game not "worth it to me" to buy any plat whatsoever. As I stated in a thread about that, I got a give-away of 100 plat on the forums, which let me buy slots, and I finally started to have more fun with the game. Once it became "worth it", I actually bought plat myself through Renown packs and the Tennocon pack. There's a breaking-point of "worth it", that I think most F2P players who have money, need to break through before they'll part with money on a F2P game. Other spenders will only spend once they "have to have" something... and if they don't even have the frame to make use of a "must have" cosmetic, they'll never spring for the plat to buy the cosmetic that they don't even have the frame for...

There's a multitude of variables that this touches, and I've given a lot of thought to them. I don't expect you to change your mind, but I'm just explaining my point of view for those reading (and hopefully DE).

 

[JuicyPop]

8 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

You really think that makes any kind of point in your favor? That's asinine. I have 3 copies of Adaptation, and I could conceivable have 1 or 2 more for further flexibility if I want. You are either a bad troll or terribly stupid, but in either case, it's obvious you don't have an argument to make that can stand up to basic facts.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's 1, 4, 8 or 100; if there is a fixed number that you can conceivably use then there is an inherent point of exhaustion in the market. Your premise only really follows if we're talking about one-time use consumables. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Currently, people who don't trade at all due to 3rd party website or not wanting to use Trade Chat, see 0 plat from ANYTHING they have (as I said earlier). Only prime parts are worth ducats to them. That's important because...

Then it's clear that they either don't need or, don't want, the plat that they could earn from trading. 

Trade chat isn't difficult to use with an appropriate filter for people who aren't greedy. Items can be sold quickly if prices are set reasonably. 

14 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

With an in-game Market, they can at least get 1 plat per prime piece, 20 relics for a warframe slot, 12 for a couple weapon slots... I'd be willing to grind for that. And I wouldn't be willing to sell a prime part for less than 1 plat. I'd rather have the ducats. There are other things to sell as well, like Invasion weapon pieces, Ayatan statues (though much less value recently), and mods.

For the first part you just described what many F2P Tenno do on consoles. "WTS prime junk 6 parts, 6plat". For the second, well what you're not willing to do and what you prefer, is nice but stops being an issue the instant any other Tenno is just a little more desperate. And believe me there are always desperate people who are willing to drop their price just a little. So you would keep your items for Baro, and go right back to making 0 plat for anything. 

18 minutes ago, JuicyPop said:

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's 1, 4, 8 or 100; if there is a fixed number that you can conceivably use then there is an inherent point of exhaustion in the market. Your premise only really follows if we're talking about one-time use consumables. 

For most mods the number would be a maximum of around 2x(number of ranks+1). 

And those only apply to the ones that also fit on our companions. You'd only need one of each rank for all of the possible simultaneous uses. 

But again each of those is essentially unique. Nobody needs to have 3+ copies of the same mod at the same rank, and that Tenno knows this very well, they're just desperate to save face at this point. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

To the point about prices dropping below 1 plat...

In an automated market (AH) system, the minimum price would be 1plat per item transaction for a buy-out. If you want to haggle for cheaper with people over trade chat, or the 3rd party website, be my guest to save the plat. Want a fast trade, hassle-free, no meeting in a dojo to slowly fill a menu with prime pieces, then pay for the convenience. That's what this sort of system does.