Atlas MOD only PVP

[Nendos]

Put mod Rumbled in PVE, because it is currently PVP exclusive , to have more option to play with it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

It's currently a PvP exclusive because he already has Titanic Rumbler in PvE. As no other frames have yet released two Augments for the same ability, it's unlikely Atlas will be the first with this.

As a note, though, Rumbled only works in PvP because everyone has the same default health, shields and armour. This augment would require a lot of work in order make it even slightly viable for PvE, and it still would likely not be a better option than using our real guns and melee instead of the versions that Rumbled gives.

Cool idea in theory, terrible in practice.

[Renegade343]

10 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As a note, though, Rumbled only works in PvP because everyone has the same default health, shields and armour.

Well... not really. There's still some variation between different frames, and then balanced out by mobility.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Renegade343

[ShasOBorkan]

The numbers may need tweaking but it certainly would be a huge upgrade to his currently defunct 4th ability, and much more useful than the current augment. Even if it turned out to be gimmicky, he really does need a big change to his 4 to make it useful.

I like the idea.

[Stormdragon]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's currently a PvP exclusive because he already has Titanic Rumbler in PvE. As no other frames have yet released two Augments for the same ability, it's unlikely Atlas will be the first with this.

I wonder if someone would miss Titanic rumbler. At least i wouldn't since, imo, getting to be a rumbler is way more fun and engaging than just creating a new entity that acts on its own and can be forgotten.

If Rumblers got both augments available in PvE, it could also open the way for other abilities with lackluster augments to get a better one, allowing more gameplay choices in a game where customization is quite a big deal.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As a note, though, Rumbled only works in PvP because everyone has the same default health, shields and armour.

As pointed above by Renegade343, warframes in conclave have different health, shield and armor values and frames with more EHP (effective hit/health points) are balanced by being slower than those with less EHP.

Also, I'm yet to see a Nidus or an Inaros with shields in PvP which would be the case if everyone had the same health, shields and armor.

Quote

This augment would require a lot of work in order make it even slightly viable for PvE, and it still would likely not be a better option than using our real guns and melee instead of the versions that Rumbled gives.

Based on my experience with Rumbled in PvP it shouldn't be much work since it already scales with power strength (tested with Final Act), and there are no power range mods to tweak the aoe size of his exploding rock throws and ground slams, no mods to improve energy efficiency enough to let him cast other powers while rumbled, and no mods to increase how long does the rumbled armor last.

There are also no armor mods in conclave, and the rubble mechanic is disabled there, so these could also be used to make rumbled scale further without touching the PvP side of it, if the issue is the damage output, they could just make it scale with weapon mods of either primary, secondary, or melee and call it a day since there are no dmg buffing mods in pvp either (barring double/triple/final tap that trigger under specific circumstances and rumbled's attack speed isn't fast enough to do it)

However, i think they would have to work on other improvements such as allowing rumbled to bullet jump even if it's at half mobility in order to make him a bit more maneuverable while keeping him with a heavy feel without disabling parkour.

I don't think it would be too much work, specially if we keep in mind that part of Atlas' kit could use some tweaks (looking mostly at Tectonics), that DE has already made some big changes to other frames before (remember excalibur's super jump? Ember's overheat?, wukong's iron jab and his old defy?) And even tweaks to augments where the last one was kind of a missed opportunity to make Titanic Rumbler a fun augment (imo).

Edited September 29, 2019 by Stormdragon

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 hours ago, Renegade343 said:

Well... not really.

15 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

As pointed above by Renegade343, warframes in conclave have different health, shield and armor values and frames with more EHP (effective hit/health points) are balanced by being slower than those with less EHP.

So, neither of you actually denies that the frames are actually balanced against each other, just with my phrasing. Good, then my point stands.

It only works because nobody has over a certain amount of EHP and because they can clearly balance how much damage and resistance Rumbled gives the Atlas player in relation to the other players.

The entire game mode is substantially different from PvE because of the player intelligence giving it an actual difficulty that the main game has to compensate for by actual scaling. And not even the good kind of scaling, as we all know, the main game just devolves into Rocket Tag due to the enemy having auto aim, seeking fire and no tactical awareness, with its worst enemies either attempting to ignore or negate our actual abilities in order to last even seconds longer against us.

15 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

I don't think it would be too much work

Clearly, but I don't blame you for that, because you haven't actually thought through what it entails, why Titanic Rumbler 'wouldn't be missed' is part of that, and how this would seriously hinder an Atlas player when it comes to actual scaling content.

Some serious retooling would have to go into this, not limited to the part where we would not be able to use regular weapons and would be confined to pure abilities, which severely limits a lot of Warframes, and would remove a lot of Atlas' best combinations (especially now that his petrify actually allows new Status procs on enemies).

Again, cool in theory, just not in practice.

But I'll give you another angle on this, because I really want to put a point here that needs to be said; a PvP augment was already ported to the main game once, and you know what? I absolutely believe that we lost the possibility of a far better Augment existing in that case. Mesa's Waltz is alright as a function in PvP, but it lends literally nothing to the game play of PvE. We had people on here theory crafting dozens of Augments that would have made Peacemaker different, functionally different, in ways that would have completely changed up how you modded her, how you played her, how you made her 4 work with her 3 and 2 and even her 1 (making her 1 actually reliable to use consistently instead of people forgetting about it all of the time). And what did we get instead? The ability to walk slowly around in the exact same old Peacemaker.

Rumbled is just Atlas again, no change, just a suit he's wearing. It takes away the weapons he could be using to have far greater effect, and limits him to just being the same Atlas with a different visual and maybe a little extra EHP.

By wanting to bring it over to PvE you're just giving DE a free pass to not do something better. Something that would make a replacement for Titanic Rumbler that would actually change up how you play Atlas. Something that allowed him to use his kit in a different way.

I, especially as we're looking at Atlas Prime in the coming month, don't want to have just the same-old-same-old with him, I want something there to make him better.

And I don't think that Rumbled is it.

[TehGrief]

22 hours ago, Nendos said:

Put mod Rumbled in PVE, because it is currently PVP exclusive , to have more option to play with it.

Fully support - the more build diversity the better.

[Rhundis]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So, neither of you actually denies that the frames are actually balanced against each other, just with my phrasing. Good, then my point stands.

It only works because nobody has over a certain amount of EHP and because they can clearly balance how much damage and resistance Rumbled gives the Atlas player in relation to the other players.

The entire game mode is substantially different from PvE because of the player intelligence giving it an actual difficulty that the main game has to compensate for by actual scaling. And not even the good kind of scaling, as we all know, the main game just devolves into Rocket Tag due to the enemy having auto aim, seeking fire and no tactical awareness, with its worst enemies either attempting to ignore or negate our actual abilities in order to last even seconds longer against us.

Clearly, but I don't blame you for that, because you haven't actually thought through what it entails, why Titanic Rumbler 'wouldn't be missed' is part of that, and how this would seriously hinder an Atlas player when it comes to actual scaling content.

Some serious retooling would have to go into this, not limited to the part where we would not be able to use regular weapons and would be confined to pure abilities, which severely limits a lot of Warframes, and would remove a lot of Atlas' best combinations (especially now that his petrify actually allows new Status procs on enemies).

Again, cool in theory, just not in practice.

But I'll give you another angle on this, because I really want to put a point here that needs to be said; a PvP augment was already ported to the main game once, and you know what? I absolutely believe that we lost the possibility of a far better Augment existing in that case. Mesa's Waltz is alright as a function in PvP, but it lends literally nothing to the game play of PvE. We had people on here theory crafting dozens of Augments that would have made Peacemaker different, functionally different, in ways that would have completely changed up how you modded her, how you played her, how you made her 4 work with her 3 and 2 and even her 1 (making her 1 actually reliable to use consistently instead of people forgetting about it all of the time). And what did we get instead? The ability to walk slowly around in the exact same old Peacemaker.

Rumbled is just Atlas again, no change, just a suit he's wearing. It takes away the weapons he could be using to have far greater effect, and limits him to just being the same Atlas with a different visual and maybe a little extra EHP.

By wanting to bring it over to PvE you're just giving DE a free pass to not do something better. Something that would make a replacement for Titanic Rumbler that would actually change up how you play Atlas. Something that allowed him to use his kit in a different way.

I, especially as we're looking at Atlas Prime in the coming month, don't want to have just the same-old-same-old with him, I want something there to make him better.

And I don't think that Rumbled is it.

That's quite the well thought out response. While I agree with your comment, I still feel that the Rumbled augment could be viable in PvE on the grounds that it fits Atlas thematically.

While you could go off and come up with amazingly complex and thought out suggestions, at the end of the day, Atlas is personified as the "unmovable rock" (though there are frames that do this better) and is by far the most Earth themed Augment for him.

[yles9056]

On 2019-09-29 at 11:49 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's currently a PvP exclusive because he already has Titanic Rumbler in PvE. As no other frames have yet released two Augments for the same ability, it's unlikely Atlas will be the first with this.

There's no reason why DE shouldn't release second augment mods for the same ability. And there's no reason why Atlas can't be the first one to get that.

[Stormdragon]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So, neither of you actually denies that the frames are actually balanced against each other, just with my phrasing. Good, then my point stands.

Yeah balanced around 3 classes that depend on the frame's base mobility. However, every frame having "exactly the same shields, health and armor values", and frames "being balanced against each other" isn't the same.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It only works because nobody has over a certain amount of EHP and because they can clearly balance how much damage and resistance Rumbled gives the Atlas player in relation to the other players.

I'd argue the opposite, that balance with no ways to make a warframe scale into the insane amounts of EHP that we can get in PvE is exactly the reason why DE could make Rumbled work without breaking the PvP version of the augment, and this by simply making it keep the same scaling as the base ability since in PvP there are no mods to increase armor, power duration or aoe size of powers, and the ones that increase damage output require specific circumstances to trigger and still don't do enough to make it unbalanced in PvP.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Clearly, but I don't blame you for that, because you haven't actually thought through what it entails, why Titanic Rumbler 'wouldn't be missed' is part of that, and how this would seriously hinder an Atlas player when it comes to actual scaling content.

I've thought about what it entails and pointed it in the post you're quoting there, it just got conveniently lost in your cherry picking.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I absolutely believe that we lost the possibility of a far better Augment existing in that case. Mesa's Waltz is alright as a function in PvP, but it lends literally nothing to the game play of PvE.

I don't like Mesa's Waltz either (i think it should have been part of the base skill so it could have an actual augment like many other augments) but a lot of PvE players pushed for it to be her PvE augment and DE delivered.

With that out of the way, i think that allowing Rumbled into pve without removing Titanic Rumbler would open the gates for more abilities to have 2 different augments (pointed above and lost in your cherrypicking) while changing Titanic Rumbler for a different augment (like Rumbled) would open the gates for lackluster augments to be completely changed in the future.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Rumbled is just Atlas again, no change, just a suit he's wearing. It takes away the weapons he could be using to have far greater effect, and limits him to just being the same Atlas with a different visual and maybe a little extra EHP.

Atlas is just another frame that wields the same weapons as any other frame. I would stay away from the uniquess argument since rumbled enables a unique gameplay where you become a titan that throws stones and mashes the ground to get rid of his enemies while Rumblers/Titanic Rumble just summon new entities, something that other frames can already do and much better (Celestial Twin exists, for example).

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

By wanting to bring it over to PvE you're just giving DE a free pass to not do something better. Something that would make a replacement for Titanic Rumbler that would actually change up how you play Atlas. Something that allowed him to use his kit in a different way.

Titanic rumbler doesn't change how Atlas plays, and it's kinda odd to see you talkimg about how Rumbled doesn't change the way Atlas plays while disregarding that it gives him basically an exalted stone armor with access to both, ranged and melee attacks (throwing stones and slamming the ground respectively), turning Atlas into an actual stone titan instead of being just another tanky frame. 

If you're so sure that Rumbled doesn't change how Atlas plays and would prefer another augment to do that, could you at least mention your ideas? No need to be extensive about it, a link to a post in a feedback thread where it has been mentioned before would be enough, even better if the post happens to be yours.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Stormdragon
Typo

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, Rhundis said:

While you could go off and come up with amazingly complex and thought out suggestions, at the end of the day, Atlas is personified as the "unmovable rock" (though there are frames that do this better) and is by far the most Earth themed Augment for him.

The question is not 'what is the best themed', is it though?

The actual question is one raised by Tom Hanks in his role in the 1988 movie 'Big', and it's far more complex than the five word question would seem: "But what does it do?"

Warframe themes are all tempered by practicality, and by the reality that these are frames created to be 'masters of gun and blade'. Whatever you create for a Warframe, it needs to be based on the practical merits as much as the theme, and in PvP this is not only thematic, it's practical. Because you are dealing not with the scaling of PvE, but with the balance of PvP where the risk/reward is more in your favour.

Atlas can use Rumbled to gain a survivability advantage and still output decent damage, while also using Abilities. And this isn't a disadvantage because the damage output is balanced against all of the other damage outputting functions in that mode.

That definitely isn't the case in PvE.

What would be the best function to incorporate for Atlas? An additive one. One that doesn't take away weapons, doesn't take away his mobility options, and doesn't need to have some kind of silly tie-in to things like Primary or Melee weapon mods in order to scale up.

Earth and Rock are a heck of a broad range to draw from, and if you're already summoning stone golems... why not take a page out of another Elemental frame's book? In fact, let's take functions we know work, and use them to make the ability work better overall.

An idea below:

Spoiler

 

People don't like Titanic Rumbler because it's basically just a better regular Rumbler that's easier to maintain and harder to kill. It doesn't really do much extra. So let's make one that uses that idea and makes it better.

So instead? I give you Rumble Dome. Instead of summoning 1 giant or 2 regular Rumblers, Atlas summons up to 10 small Rumblers within a rock arena (just a visual effect that enemies can freely enter and leave to designate the radius), these aggressively charge enemies within the 'dome' and latch to them for instant CC. Hitting an enemy with a latching Rumbler with your 1 deals multiplied damage and destroys the Rumbler. Enemies with latched Rumblers take bonus damage from all other sources, killing an enemy with a weapon does not destroy the Rumbler (meaning it can re-target!).

Recasting within the previous Rumble Dome will absorb the previous (just like Snowglobe does) and refund a percentage of the energy spent based on how many mini-Rumblers are left (so if you kill off 5 mini-rumblers, 50% of your energy spent on the next cast is refunded).

So this takes from both Zephyr's Funnel Clouds, multiplying the existing instances, and from Nidus' maggots from his 4. Plus it has synergy with what you're already doing as an Atlas player, you're free to use his weapons, you're actively synergising with his 1, and if you really want to you could use this as a supplement to his 3 (for example, Rumblers won't latch to petrified enemies).

So no, it's not as Earth themed as Rumbled is, but it works with what he has and makes it better by changing what it does. Instead of a massive source of aggro and damage that's separate from you, it's a source of self-buffing beyond what Atlas can do for himself normally.

 

Again, the simple way I see it is that Rumbled does less for Atlas than another potential augment would do.

No matter how on theme it is, you always have to consider what it does for a Warframe as a whole... (which is something I think DE could stand to do more in their own existing creations)...

As a side note:

17 minutes ago, yles9056 said:

There's no reason why DE shouldn't release second augment mods for the same ability. And there's no reason why Atlas can't be the first one to get that.

Oh, that's a can of worms you don't really want to get into. There have been literal years of topics on exactly that concept.

The general consensus that I've picked up from all of those threads (ones that got way too heated... over and over...) is that second augments are absolutely fine as a concept, but that the first frames to get them should be the oldest frames, and that frames should only get a second augment once the frames older than them have received all four augments.

So, in the overall opinion of the people that have come before us on this subject; in order for Atlas to be the first to get a second, then Mirage, Limbo, Zephyr, Vauban, Saryn and Trinity would need to get theirs first.

After that, the fanbase can argue about it more, I'm just reporting the findings as I've read them so far.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Look, you're getting really defensive over this, and I'm not going to try and convince somebody that doesn't want to be convinced, but I will answer one point:

3 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Titanic rumbler doesn't change how Atlas plays

No, it doesn't. You're quite right.

And this is a failing.

Don't let DE continue to do that, don't let them take short cuts in making frames better. We've seen what happens when they do, and the missed potential of it.

Think beyond what we have and help by proposing more.

[Rhundis]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The question is not 'what is the best themed', is it though?

The actual question is one raised by Tom Hanks in his role in the 1988 movie 'Big', and it's far more complex than the five word question would seem: "But what does it do?"

Warframe themes are all tempered by practicality, and by the reality that these are frames created to be 'masters of gun and blade'. Whatever you create for a Warframe, it needs to be based on the practical merits as much as the theme, and in PvP this is not only thematic, it's practical. Because you are dealing not with the scaling of PvE, but with the balance of PvP where the risk/reward is more in your favour.

Atlas can use Rumbled to gain a survivability advantage and still output decent damage, while also using Abilities. And this isn't a disadvantage because the damage output is balanced against all of the other damage outputting functions in that mode.

That definitely isn't the case in PvE.

What would be the best function to incorporate for Atlas? An additive one. One that doesn't take away weapons, doesn't take away his mobility options, and doesn't need to have some kind of silly tie-in to things like Primary or Melee weapon mods in order to scale up.

Earth and Rock are a heck of a broad range to draw from, and if you're already summoning stone golems... why not take a page out of another Elemental frame's book? In fact, let's take functions we know work, and use them to make the ability work better overall.

An idea below:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

People don't like Titanic Rumbler because it's basically just a better regular Rumbler that's easier to maintain and harder to kill. It doesn't really do much extra. So let's make one that uses that idea and makes it better.

So instead? I give you Rumble Dome. Instead of summoning 1 giant or 2 regular Rumblers, Atlas summons up to 10 small Rumblers within a rock arena (just a visual effect that enemies can freely enter and leave to designate the radius), these aggressively charge enemies within the 'dome' and latch to them for instant CC. Hitting an enemy with a latching Rumbler with your 1 deals multiplied damage and destroys the Rumbler. Enemies with latched Rumblers take bonus damage from all other sources, killing an enemy with a weapon does not destroy the Rumbler (meaning it can re-target!).

Recasting within the previous Rumble Dome will absorb the previous (just like Snowglobe does) and refund a percentage of the energy spent based on how many mini-Rumblers are left (so if you kill off 5 mini-rumblers, 50% of your energy spent on the next cast is refunded).

So this takes from both Zephyr's Funnel Clouds, multiplying the existing instances, and from Nidus' maggots from his 4. Plus it has synergy with what you're already doing as an Atlas player, you're free to use his weapons, you're actively synergising with his 1, and if you really want to you could use this as a supplement to his 3 (for example, Rumblers won't latch to petrified enemies).

So no, it's not as Earth themed as Rumbled is, but it works with what he has and makes it better by changing what it does. Instead of a massive source of aggro and damage that's separate from you, it's a source of self-buffing beyond what Atlas can do for himself normally.

 

Again, the simple way I see it is that Rumbled does less for Atlas than another potential augment would do.

No matter how on theme it is, you always have to consider what it does for a Warframe as a whole... (which is something I think DE could stand to do more in their own existing creations)...

As a side note:

Oh, that's a can of worms you don't really want to get into. There have been literal years of topics on exactly that concept.

The general consensus that I've picked up from all of those threads (ones that got way too heated... over and over...) is that second augments are absolutely fine as a concept, but that the first frames to get them should be the oldest frames, and that frames should only get a second augment once the frames older than them have received all four augments.

So, in the overall opinion of the people that have come before us on this subject; in order for Atlas to be the first to get a second, then Mirage, Limbo, Zephyr, Vauban, Saryn and Trinity would need to get theirs first.

After that, the fanbase can argue about it more, I'm just reporting the findings as I've read them so far.

Well put, I admit some of my love for the frame and my imagination running overboard has swayed my opinion, but what I'm understanding is that you would like to see what's best physically for Atlas, not what could be best with the community and it's interactions with Atlas. 

For example, your idea of a rumble dome, although interesting, would be a bit of an eyesore to other players. Remember how people complained (and still complain) about Frost's snow globe taking up too much room and impeeding other players? Well I'm sure that would also get picked as annoying by others.

The fact of the matter is, the ability needs to be synergistic to the frame in question without hindering both itself and others, and if it's an augment, provide some form of different playstyle which gives trade-offs that are equal or greater than the demerits it applies.

Otherwise, from what your saying, it sounds as if Atlas's Rumblers were a bit more aggressive you would be fairly happy with the ability.

In terms of Rumbled, Ive played a lot of games which have abilities that provide negatives with beneficial positives. So for example, if Atlas uses Rumbled as it is, (not being able to parkour, use guns, etc) he should gain positive effects that would outweigh this detriment. Examples being heavily increased armor, access to an area CC, access to a ranged AoE, immunity to CC, the list could go on.

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Rhundis

[Arcira]

On 2019-09-29 at 5:49 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's currently a PvP exclusive because he already has Titanic Rumbler in PvE. As no other frames have yet released two Augments for the same ability, it's unlikely Atlas will be the first with this.

Why is any other warframe more likely to introduce this change? And does it really matter who is the first one?

On 2019-09-29 at 5:49 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

As a note, though, Rumbled only works in PvP because everyone has the same default health, shields and armour. This augment would require a lot of work in order make it even slightly viable for PvE, and it still would likely not be a better option than using our real guns and melee instead of the versions that Rumbled gives.

Cool idea in theory, terrible in practice.

I don´t really get that point. After reading the discription it looks like a simple ehp buff including custom visuals (Rhino) coupled with some kind mobility drawback (Wisp) which sounds like an interesting combination. Nothing that would tell me this doesn´t work in pve and needs to be fundamentally changed. That beeing said I never used this augment and maybe there is something I´m missing here.

If you are talking about the actual numbers and there scaling though I´m pretty sure it´s comon sense those need to be adjusted but that doesn´t sound like an impossible task to me. For example as far as I know his 1st ability Landslide already scales with melee mods. Alternatively they could give his 4th an exalted weapon like status when you equip the augment.

There are a lot of possibilities already in the game which don´t need need the implementation of new features. Eventhough I´d prefer if DE would finally implement some kind of equivalent system for ability damage scaling. But that´s another topic I guess.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Arcira

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Arcira said:

Why is any other warframe more likely to introduce this change? And does it really matter who is the first one?

Again, rabbit hole. I've been burned by that topic before.

But, if any frame were going to get a second augment for an ability first, you can bet your absolute last Plat that it's going to be Excal. Poster boi is going to be poster boi forever.

1 hour ago, Arcira said:

I don´t really get that point.

Alrighty, let me explain.

That 'some kind of mobility drawback' is the inability to run or jump. At all. Try playing PvE Warframe without running or jumping and the closest you get to it is walking off an edge and aim-gliding. That, for one, is not ever going to be fun. Even Grendel, the Meatball, can jump while in his roller-ball form.

So the first thing you'd have to do is turn it from a Duration ability into a Toggle or a cast-to-deactivate function, so that you can navigate when you need to, not when the ability ends. That's either nerfing the economy of the ability itself by having it as a full-duration cast that you have to turn off early if you want to navigate, or nerfing the overall economy of the frame (which is usually quite energy hungry if you're actively building Rubble with his 3 and 1) by making it a toggle drain that prevents most forms of energy regen.

What you could compare Rumbled to, in PvE, is imagine you're playing Valkyr's Hysteria, but can't jump, can't run, have only the extra damage reduction from your abilities (no invincibility), and your method of attack is reduced to Ripline, a ground slam, and a thrown projectile. It's not actually a very appealing play style when you think about it.

And when Abilities, at least traditionally, take that much away from you, it has to actually be worth that trade. Valkyr gets both invulnerability and life steal, Excal gets projectile attacks, Wukong gets one of the best range melees and it equips on his Clone as well for potentially double damage to enemies, Baruuk gets wide area projectiles that also have CC functions (although those really need to be looked at...), Mesa has one of the best quick-scaling damage functions and auto-aim, Ivara has the de-facto best Bow in the game plus it only drains energy when you shoot, not constantly, and she can fire her 1 from the alt-fire button... There is always a benefit to it that makes it arguably as good as using the other options you have available.

That's the specific kind of changes that this means, something that Rumbled doesn't have right now because it only needs to deal a balanced amount of damage to Players who are all balanced for their EHP and mobility. I mean, it's DE, they do like making something OP at first and then nerfing it later, and I don't want that to happen wherever possible.

What you'd have to work on is making that rock throw actually deal enough damage, be reliable enough to replace weapons, and his area slam be again reliable and deal enough damage to replace melee, and you'd have to either introduce completely new functions for his damage reduction or you'd just be creating a clone of Iron Skin, which is already good enough to be an ability on its own.

The practicality of all these changes would mean that it's basically not even the same ability anymore anyway, in which case, why not make a better one?

See, that's why in my more recent comment, I actually proposed a concept that uses existing features in the game, but ties them to what Atlas does and changes up how you would play him. It would make Rumblers work as targeted enemy CC and debuffs instead of as sources of aggro and damage themselves, which makes you treat the ability and how you cast it as completely different from how you use Rumblers or Titanic Rumbler.

That's really the more pressing point of my discussion here, though; that while Rumbled would make Atlas act differently in game and make us play him differently, is it the kind of differently that we want, when compared to the possibilities of other Augments?

Oh, and before I go;

4 hours ago, Rhundis said:

For example, your idea of a rumble dome, although interesting, would be a bit of an eyesore to other players.

Oh, nononono ^^ I only mentioned Snowglobe as a way to illustrate how it takes on the old cast and incorporates it into the new one. The actual visuals would probably be something like a knee-high ring of rock, maybe with an Energy colour to it, so it's clear that enemies can't hide behind it, that we can just step over it, but that the Rumblers that the ability generates won't go past that point.

You combine that simple enemy debuff function with a more balanced form of area denial by making it have a limited range. The Rumblers can't just run off wherever and be doing something else, while you'd far rather they be where you are helping you do things you're doing.

Just a range line, not even as much visual clutter as Strangledome.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Birdframe_Prime

[yles9056]

@Birdframe_Prime

I don't know how you get the idea that oldest warframes should get new stuff first especially poster boy, Excalibur. A lot of things in WF are not done in that way. Excalibur is not the first warframe to get a passive. He's not the first warframe to get signature weapons and still doesn't have any. Trinity, who was introduced in update 4 according to wiki, is still waiting for the forth augment mod while many newer frames already have four.

We probably should drop this argument and focus on other.

[Scruffel]

Can anyone answer me this question, is the mod even good for it be used *in* PvE?

Because to me, it just seems like a weak Rhino Skin copy that replaces your weapons with some slow and inconvenient attacks, while also impairing your movement. That seems somewhat capable within a Conclave setting, but outside of it, I don't see the point. Not to say there's anything wrong with giving players more options, but as someone who uses Atlas a lot, I wouldn't touch this Augment with a ten-foot pole.

I know you could make the Augment better by simply buffing the mod and removing all those restrictions, but then, why not make a new mod at that point? I mean, has there ever been a PvP mod before, that works different in PvE (not situationally, but functionally)?

Edited October 1, 2019 by Scruffel

[yles9056]

14 minutes ago, Scruffel said:

I know you could make the Augment better by simply buffing the mod and removing all those restrictions, but then, why not make a new mod at that point? I mean, has there ever been a PvP mod before, that works different in PvE (not situationally, but functionally)?

People want the feature of that PvP mod(wear stone armor and throw rocks). But its stats is indeed not good. I agree making a new PvE mod with similar feature would be a better idea.

[Rhundis]

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oh, nononono ^^ I only mentioned Snowglobe as a way to illustrate how it takes on the old cast and incorporates it into the new one. The actual visuals would probably be something like a knee-high ring of rock, maybe with an Energy colour to it, so it's clear that enemies can't hide behind it, that we can just step over it, but that the Rumblers that the ability generates won't go past that point.

You combine that simple enemy debuff function with a more balanced form of area denial by making it have a limited range. The Rumblers can't just run off wherever and be doing something else, while you'd far rather they be where you are helping you do things you're doing.

Just a range line, not even as much visual clutter as Strangledome.

Ah ok, I misunderstood your comment.

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Alrighty, let me explain.

That 'some kind of mobility drawback' is the inability to run or jump. At all. Try playing PvE Warframe without running or jumping and the closest you get to it is walking off an edge and aim-gliding. That, for one, is not ever going to be fun. Even Grendel, the Meatball, can jump while in his roller-ball form.

Isn't Mesa already like this with her Waltz?

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, yles9056 said:

We probably should drop this argument and focus on other.

Yes. I said it’s a can of worms, a rabbit hole I didn’t want to go down. There are hundreds of Mod-locked threads full of arguments about it. That’s where I got those views from.

17 minutes ago, Rhundis said:

Isn't Mesa already like this with her Waltz?

Yes, but with a scaling, auto-aiming function and the base ability doesn’t move at all so any movement is an improvement... Far from taking something away from the frame, Mesa’s Waltz actually adds back in a function the ability already removed.

But I’ve said it before in this and dozens of other threads; Waltz is not a good PvE augment either. I feel we lost out on a far better augment by giving DE the freedom to be lazy.

Expect better, ask for better, and you may be very surprised by what comes out of it.

Look at Garuda’s 4; what we were going to get was just a copy-paste of Revanent’s 4, with lower range and a different base damage. By asking for better, we got one of the most impressive scaling abilities in the game, one that can even be modded to make her 1 able to kill any enemy up to level 3000 when you combo them correctly.

There are better things out there than what we’re seeing now, even just new ways to use old functions.

And I, for one, will always push for that.

[(XBOX)LZonut]

We can make Rumbled form deal weapon damage and stats for different attacks, such as melee for punches (obviously) and maybe primary for rock throws. Using other abilities could give you added effects. Landslide could deal more damage, tectonics could give you a boulder you can throw and petrify would have a bigger angle. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by (XB1)LordZonut