Cost of Arcanes for frames vs Rivens

[Arcira]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

What does "far below" mean?

"far below" is a subjective term. Average price on wfm currently is  ~140 => 140*10 = 1400 per r3. which means the average price is about 30% lower than the one suggested by op.

6 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Real traders look at the actual trade chat daily to verify average prices. They know trade sites don't reflect real, in-game prices. The first page of almost any item have prices that are 3x to 10x+ the lowest posted price. 

I just looked at warframe.market. Prices vary from 130 to 3,000 with no arcane rank listed. Try and post "wtb" r3 energize and see the price you get. I guess if you tell people thier price is too high they will lower it for you....

Lmao.

6 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

1st time nightwave had r0 energize as reward, people posted "wtb" at 250p. I sold mine at 280p.

Soooo.....

 

That´s what the other tools like median, min-max and candles are for. If you look at the chart you can see at what prices the most amount of items are sold. Just because someone somewhere bought/sold something far below the estimated price doesn´t mean you should do the same. In fact individual outlier don´t even affect the average price that much and can be ignored for the most part.

6 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Huh? Far below 2k but never above 200/2k? Reads kinda like a contradiction.

Why is that contradictory? Far below 2k means >2000. Not above 200/arcane means >2000 as well.

 

4 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Arcane energize went for 500p apiece on xbox when it was available only in jordas verdict, and that number increased during platinum sales.  I bought around 15 at that price, and after I had my double set whenever I got another one in JV I would sell said extra for 500p without much trouble because it still is the best piece of gear in the game.  People just don't know how powerful it is or when you link it to them in chat they say 'it's no good because it only replenishes your allies energy' and I facepalm at the stupidity.  No one would be spending thousands of plat on something to be nice to your teammates.  

Rivens can and will be nerfed.  I still see people posting to buy rubico rivens despite it's dispo being almost rock bottom.  Energize nerf isn't going to happen, if they really wanted to nerf energize and other such arcanes they would have done so when they introduced them to tricaps but they buffed a lot of them like guardian used to go off your base armor value and was like +100% or something, which would be useless on say trinity prime with base armor of 15.  But then they made it a flat +600 and so basically every frame can use it now and get some benefit except for rhino with his iron skin causing him to not take damage/it won't proc.  

Most arcanes are cheap as hell due to tricaps now.  Only ones really worth anything at this point are energize, grace, guardian, and kind of barrier.  Aegis had some hype behind it when shield gating was being talked about and hildryn came out but that has died down a bit since hildryn isn't the hot new thing anymore.  

From my understanding items in general are quite a bit lower on console because of certain circumstances. But neither do I have an account there nor does the sample size provides a good picture which might be the very reason prices differ that much. The less people participating on a market the higher the divergence between what is considered average.

Also while Arcanes are definitively more consistent it doesn´t mean they can´t be nerfed. Not everything is devalued by direct number changes on the item. The introduction of energizing dash for example could be a factor why prices drop quite a bit over time.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Eluminary said:

Back when you could only get this on the jordas verdict arcane energize was 300 to 500 p each depending upon platform PC being more expensive.  Arcanes being moved to eidolons decreased the price of all of them a good bit energize still kept a lot of value though. .

That´s true I have exaggerated. Should have said something like recently or within the past few years.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Arcira

[Hyroncore]

10 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Understanding that both are not needed, why is it that complaints are seen/made about rivens being traded at 1k+ than people that complain about Arcanes being traded at 2k+? 

For me, a good riven for my favorite weapon/good weapon has more value/usage than an arcane. Even when you use a weapon in the lowest disposition category. 

Arcane Energize and Grace being the biggest, high price culprits. There are many ways to replace the boost from these two arcanes using focus schools or mods but not many ways to replace the benefit of a good riven. 

The time it takes to get a great roll riven vs r3 arcane seems to be even. Maybe slightly more time for great roll riven? I know drop chances are awful for some arcanes but you can't trade for kuva to roll a riven though you can trade for r0 arcanes to make r3 arcane.

Again, neither arcane or riven is mandatory but between the two, I see the riven being worth more especially a great roll ( I don't like the term g*d roll , so I say great roll).

Hey there Phantom. I want to point out 2 major issues when people complain about pricing from my experience on PC PS4 and Switch. The game has existed for the longest period of time on PC and as such there is a saturation of the market so the complaints on high pricing there should be stemming from not a case of greed but what you would know as basic supply and demand. Arcanes are for the best part reliably obtained from Tricap and now on PC with the new Arbitration arcanes there is a bigger market again because of potential meta shifts to Arcanes including that INSANE Tanker one that gives a huge armor buff on hit.

The other issue is people shifting from say PC where the market is stable at a high cost to platforms such as Switch which I believe is the youngest in terms of time existing. I personally made the grave sin of offering 500p for Omega prints on Switch and was given a huge discount by an incredibly honest trader whom I go to regularly now. I also was offering a comparable price for the full arcane set for Operator Arcanes on PC which was arund 2 and a half times the eventual 400p I paid that also included Rolling Guard Vigorous Swap and a shotgun mod.

The pricing will vary but the easiest way to avoid the complaints is to keep an eye on trade channels on your platform and do basic economics if you see a guy selling Arcanes at a stupid price and are willing to price lower be it for a quick sale or are feeling generous do so. Dont let the idiots distract from trading.

Another way to ensure trading at a consistent price would be to check out www.warframe.market which has individual markets for each platform and the Official discords trade channel.

 

I may have rambled a bit but if you want any clarifications feel free to add me Hyroncore on PC or AethericDaeva on Switch I will do what I can. Hope you get the rivens and arcanes you and your friends need just remember to be smart about how you engage traders as many will if treated well offer discounts to people who engage in reasonable discussion.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

43 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

Hey there Phantom. I want to point out 2 major issues when people complain about pricing from my experience on PC PS4 and Switch. The game has existed for the longest period of time on PC and as such there is a saturation of the market so the complaints on high pricing there should be stemming from not a case of greed but what you would know as basic supply and demand. Arcanes are for the best part reliably obtained from Tricap and now on PC with the new Arbitration arcanes there is a bigger market again because of potential meta shifts to Arcanes including that INSANE Tanker one that gives a huge armor buff on hit.

The other issue is people shifting from say PC where the market is stable at a high cost to platforms such as Switch which I believe is the youngest in terms of time existing. I personally made the grave sin of offering 500p for Omega prints on Switch and was given a huge discount by an incredibly honest trader whom I go to regularly now. I also was offering a comparable price for the full arcane set for Operator Arcanes on PC which was arund 2 and a half times the eventual 400p I paid that also included Rolling Guard Vigorous Swap and a shotgun mod.

The pricing will vary but the easiest way to avoid the complaints is to keep an eye on trade channels on your platform and do basic economics if you see a guy selling Arcanes at a stupid price and are willing to price lower be it for a quick sale or are feeling generous do so. Dont let the idiots distract from trading.

Another way to ensure trading at a consistent price would be to check out www.warframe.market which has individual markets for each platform and the Official discords trade channel.

 

I may have rambled a bit but if you want any clarifications feel free to add me Hyroncore on PC or AethericDaeva on Switch I will do what I can. Hope you get the rivens and arcanes you and your friends need just remember to be smart about how you engage traders as many will if treated well offer discounts to people who engage in reasonable discussion.

You make a good point about pricing varying between platforms and PC having higher supply due to time of existence. 

My issue does not lay with the ability to aquire items. I know players will always sell cheaper than others. Especially leeches who join matches just to get rewards. New players who sell cheap for quick plat. And veterans + similar players who sell cheap just to help others or to be kind. 

My issue is the fact that I see more players complaining about rivens than  that of arcanes.

Yet, in my opinion,  rivens are more useful than an arcane that goes on a warframe. There are many ways to replace an arcane in a frame like using operator equipment , focus schools or mods. But you really can't replace a great roll riven even on a low dispo weapon riven. 

Like I see plenty of nerf a riven because it's too strong or because other players set the price too high. Or like rivens are trash and should be nerfed because a weapon shouldn't need a riven and the prices are too high. It's a waste of plat

But where are the "arcanes cost too much at 1k -2k+plat" conversations ? Even if it's just about the most popular 2 or 3 arcanes. 

It's like people are ok paying high plat for arcanes that give a little bit of extra function. But not ok with high priced rivens that allow regular, just ok weapons to compete against high level enemies. 

Rivens are game changers but arcanes for frames don't do much that you can't already get. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[Hyroncore]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

SNIP

Rivens are game changers but arcanes for frames don't do much that you can't already get. 

Its a meta v offmeta and ease of access argument. Most people who complain about pricing ignore the difficulty in getting good rolls particularly for current meta weapons that have a 3 dot or lower dispo. Just use the means I mentioned and find steady traders. And do your best to have constructive conversations be it in region or whispers with those that raise the issue. I wager a good portion would tell you your wrong/too low MR to comment or some crap like they do to me on my switch acc at MR 10 lmao. Ignorance wilful or otherwise lends to this issue and its not easy but just trade and engage with those who arent idiots and youll find a good trade eventually. 

I definitely recommend warframe.market as a comparison tool and have at times seen people who abuse me for me asking for lower prices on switch are viewing the PC prices on that site not switch. And in one or two cases I got lucky because they realised the mistake and we made a fair trade as a result.

 

JUST MAKE SURE YOUR USING THE SECTION RELEVANT TO YOUR PLATFORM. 

That is the key to maximising the benefits of the market site.

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Hyroncore

[CephalonSkii]

y'all talking about expensive arcanes going for 1k+ plat well you do know the drop rates for these specific arcanes are atrociously low(AND YOU NEED 10 OF THEM FOR A R3) and just to get a chance at it you need to do a tridolon(which can take anywhere from 14 minutes(if you're good) to 30minutes(if you at least know what youre doing)) the grind time for these rare arcanes somewhat justify their prices they have currently this is the reason things like arcane avenger goes for 20p for a r0 and a energize goes for 140 for r0 its the drop rates coupled with pretty much painful rng supply and demand dictates all and when you look at it the demand for these arcanes outweigh the supply by quite a bit(sure you don't want it but how can you be sure that the 10 guys next to you dont want it either) not many people spend their entire day farming eidolons noone is that free really(unless they actually are then count me surprised) I've got almost a 100 hydrolysts capture and have seen arcane grace drop once and energize twice from those 100 runs so i can just say the price justifies itself

Edited October 23, 2019 by CephalonSkii

[Hyroncore]

3 minutes ago, CephalonSkii said:

y'all talking about expensive arcanes going for 1k+ plat well you do know the drop rates for these specific arcanes are atrociously low and just to get a chance at it you need to do a tridolon(which can take anywhere from 14 minutes(if you're good) to 30minutes(if you at least know what youre doing)) the grind time for these rare arcanes somewhat justify their prices they have currently this is the reason things like arcane avenger goes for 20p for a r0 and a energize goes for 140 for r0 its the drop rates coupled with pretty much painful rng supply and demand dictates all and when you look at it the demand for these arcanes outweigh the supply by quite a bit(sure you don't want it but how can you be sure that the 10 guys next to you dont want it either) not many people spend their entire day farming eidolons noone is that free really(unless they actually are then count me surprised) I've got almost a 100 hydrolysts capture and have seen arcane grace drop once and energize twice from those 100 runs so i can just say the price justifies itself

You missed the point mate and please basic grammar ouch dude 😛

The point is arcanes can be replaced far more easily by using focus or team builds then rivens which you need to attach to a weapon and have far worse RNG particularly when you roll currently low dispo rivens.

 

I know of many on PC Switch and PS4 who have tricaps down to a 2 man 13m run which is how many per night cycle including load times?

Arcanes are fairly priced its just down to the fact people do not yet fully comprehend the difficulty and changes to the rivens that make getting a god tier S rank roll that much harder for many weapons that are considered meta.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Hyroncore

[CephalonSkii]

3 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

You missed the point mate and please basic grammar ouch dude 😛

thanks dad

yeah i may have missed the point but i at least recognize the pain it is to get these specific arcanes therefore am okay with the prices(and rolls ooooh kuva thy art a chore i shall do till the end of time)

Edited October 23, 2019 by CephalonSkii

[Hyroncore]

1 minute ago, CephalonSkii said:

thanks dad

yeah i may have missed the point but i at least recognize the pain it is to get these specific arcanes therefore am okay with the prices(and rolls ooooh kuva thy art a chore i shall do till the end of time)

Seems you also missed the point wasnt specificly about arcane pricing but the difference in acceptance of the price of said rare arcanes versus the time and effort of farming kuva to roll low dispo rivens that can fetch in some cases upwards of 5k or more. 

[Hyroncore]

To summarize the thread.

OP was confused about why people are ok paying a ton for rare arcanes but not ok with a high riven cost.

I responded with options that can help alleviate that issue as well as means to engage in discussion to ensure pricing isnt just about riven v arcane but about the effort required to roll that riven to a comparable rarity of those mentioned arcanes which is purely based on RNG piled on top of farming kuva which itself takes time despite the new kuva disruption and such and still isnt gaurenteed.

You responded with Arcanes are fine missing we in essence already agreed 

[SirKnum]

30 minutes ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Rivens are game changers but arcanes for frames don't do much that you can't already get. 

Can you give me an example for such a game changer riven and how it stacks up against Madurai focus school, specifically Void Strike?

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

1 hour ago, SirKnum said:

Can you give me an example for such a game changer riven and how it stacks up against Madurai focus school, specifically Void Strike?

Yes , I could.  But that would be wayyy off point. 

I said Arcanes are not game changers. They can be replaced with things like focus schools which are consistent and have better benefits.

But a good riven can be a game changer.  Even when the riven disposition for a weapon is at the lowest, a proper riven can greatly enhance a weapon. Yes, you don't need a riven or arcane but there is no alternative for a riven like there is for an arcane.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

1 hour ago, Hyroncore said:

To summarize the thread.

OP was confused about why people are ok paying a ton for rare arcanes but not ok with a high riven cost.
 

This person gets it. 

1 hour ago, CephalonSkii said:

 i at least recognize the pain it is to get these specific arcanes therefore am okay with the prices(and rolls ooooh kuva thy art a chore i shall do till the end of time)

You get it as well, just don't want to admit it. 

You can trade for r0 arcane to make r3 arcane. I've sold many r3 arcanes but I only have like 1 tricap. The grind for rare arcane can be supplemented by trading. Yet many players don't mind the high cost of some r3 arcanes.

If you want a riven that will sale at high price, you have roll riven for good stats by grinding Kuva. You cannot supplement rolling by trading for Kuva. Now you can buy kuva from arbs and sometimes Nightwave but you still have to grind currency to buy. Then hope you are blessed by rng. Not to mention what it takes to even get a riven for certain weapons. 

Way more time and effort goes into rivens than arcanes. Plus rivens give more of a benefit to gameplay overall that can not be replaced right now.

So why players complain so much about riven prices and not arcane prices when they both are not needed but both are traded at high prices? 

[SirKnum]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Yes , I could.  But that would be wayyy off point. 

I said Arcanes are not game changers. They can be replaced with things like focus schools which are consistent and have better benefits.

But a good riven can be a game changer.  Even when the riven disposition for a weapon is at the lowest, a proper riven can greatly enhance a weapon. Yes, you don't need a riven or arcane but there is no alternative for a riven like there is for an arcane.

I just gave you an example how to replace a riven. Your claims do not become more valid by repeating them.

[(PSN)Double991]

Rivens and Eidolons have already sunk the arcane market. Arcane energize used to be 3000 at max rank and should still be worth 2000 but I see people constantly trying to buy R0s for 100p which would make the set 1000. I wonder if they actually get them for those prices. (Also note that console trade prices are lower than PC on average due to PCs plat discount inflation)

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

4 hours ago, SirKnum said:

Can you give me an example for such a game changer riven and how it stacks up against Madurai focus school, specifically Void Strike?

 

2 hours ago, SirKnum said:

I just gave you an example how to replace a riven. Your claims do not become more valid by repeating them.

Lmao. You can't be serious. Plus you never gave any explanation of how Void strike replaces a riven. You made no claim at all. I didn't know it increased attack speed , ammunition,  reload speed, status chance etc. Rivens are not only used for damage

Outside of an Eidolon hunt please tell me where are you using Void strike? 

With the time it takes to build up void strike, the average mission is over.

You don't have to manage a riven. It's always "active". 

Edited October 23, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[SirKnum]

So in your opinion replacing Arcane Energize with Zenurik is completely different from using Madurai to boost your damage. And a riven is a game changer that can't be replaced with no further explanation needed.

I can tell you what is an actual game changer: objective reasoning. You should try it someday.

[Feltal]

15 hours ago, BoneBreakerx said:

lol haters gonna hate...

 

some ppl just need to complain about something... just ignore them...

its the marked that dictates the price so its the majority of the players that sets the value...

i personally dont get the prices tho... i mean getting that stuff is easy just takes a bit of effort... currently sitting on 12 rivens i havent even unvailed yet becous i allready got for all the weapons i use...

Getting perfect stats could take hundreds or thousands of rolls and you may never find a riven with the perfect stats. That's where the price tag comes in.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Feltal
passive

[Feltal]

14 hours ago, Arcira said:

As I said the only one close is Arcane Energize which is by far the most expensive one. Also don´t look at selling (or buying) prices there is a statistic optinon for things like median or average prices. At no point ever it was above 200/arcane (2k+).

Before eidolons they were 4k+ for a set.

[Chappie]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

Rivens and Eidolons have already sunk the arcane market. Arcane energize used to be 3000 at max rank and should still be worth 2000 but I see people constantly trying to buy R0s for 100p which would make the set 1000. I wonder if they actually get them for those prices. (Also note that console trade prices are lower than PC on average due to PCs plat discount inflation)

People do because time has value to players.   Some people just want to sell fast and not waste time and some people are patient to look for deals.  

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

16 minutes ago, SirKnum said:

So in your opinion replacing Arcane Energize with Zenurik is completely different from using Madurai to boost your damage. And a riven is a game changer that can't be replaced with no further explanation needed.

I can tell you what is an actual game changer: objective reasoning. You should try it someday.

 Rotflmao. I knew you had nothing.

Zenurik is instant energy recovery, every single time. Energize is a "chance" at extra energy, if you find energy orb and if energize procs. 

Riven is instant, multiple stat boost that is always active. Madurai has to be charged, works with a few hits , works on 1 pellet or projectile, and not multishot. So it would be pointless for melee where you deal a ton of hits. You would lose dps for any weapon in which you have high fire rate , multishot and a riven with damage, critical damage, multishot. 

You could use it for snipers maybe. But not very efficiently against multiple targets like in 98% of the game. 

It obvious you have no idea what you are doing and you still haven't said anything.

You're deflecting instead of making a solid point.

[SirKnum]

Both Energizing Dash and Arcane Energize serve the same purpose (generating Energy), they just work differently. Arcane Energize has the added benefit of working while channeled abilities are active and being passive, Zenurik is more reliable and constant but requires active activation.

And both a riven and Madurai serve the same purpose, to increase your damage. Madurai does not only consist of Void Strike by the way. But you do not need that damage boost against every enemy, all fodder enemies get taken out by any halfway decent weapon instantly anyway. You need the extra damage for a few select enemies and for that you can easily charge VS for a few seconds and get a damage boost besides all the other damage boosting abilities in the Madurai school.

And I hope I do not need to explain the usefulness of an armor boost equal to 66.7% DR on health.

Edited October 23, 2019 by SirKnum

[(PSN)Double991]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Zenurik is instant energy recovery, every single time. Energize is a "chance" at extra energy, if you find energy orb and if energize procs. 

Just to clarify, Energize does a lot more than its description which when paired with it's rarity is what gives it value.

A single R3 Energize has a 40% to give you AND any nearby teammates (can't remember the range)100 energy on an energy orb pickup. This energy is gained even with toggle abilities on which is something Zenurik can't do. A 2nd R3 Energize gives you a 64% of energy gain.

[S0V3REiGN]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

Just to clarify, Energize does a lot more than its description which when paired with it's rarity is what gives it value.

A single R3 Energize has a 40% to give you AND any nearby teammates (can't remember the range)100 energy on an energy orb pickup. This energy is gained even with toggle abilities on which is something Zenurik can't do. A 2nd R3 Energize gives you a 64% of energy gain.

Should also be noted that it gives you an extra revive at rank 3. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by S0V3REiGN

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

Just to clarify, Energize does a lot more than its description which when paired with it's rarity is what gives it value.

A single R3 Energize has a 40% to give you AND any nearby teammates (can't remember the range)100 energy on an energy orb pickup. This energy is gained even with toggle abilities on which is something Zenurik can't do. A 2nd R3 Energize gives you a 64% of energy gain.

Yea, I know.

I have an arcane Energize r3 equipped on frames. But 2k plat for r3? You really need 2. Sooo.... 4k plat? Im glad I got mine cheap. 

1. Not many frames need to channel non stop

2. I find myself needing better energy recovery or higher energy pool if I choose to really use abilities while having energize equipped. You really need at least 1 other player in close proximity using energize (or you need 2 yourself).

3. You have to kill many enemies to get energy orbs to drop at a rate that will proc energize , even with 2. Or use something like loot ability. 

4. I can remove flow and equip rage or hunter adrenaline and never worry about energy. Plus you recover energy while channeling abilities.  If fact, quick thinking + hunter adrenaline + vazarin heal is all I need. Unlimited health and unlimited energy plus DR from QT. 

I guess if you recruit a squad and ask them to bring arc energize it would be nice for endless defense type missions. 

I'm not disagreeing. Just saying overall,  I'm not seeing how an arcane's rarity + usage justify the "no complaints" high prices. A good/great roll riven is way more rare and way harder to find. Yet rivens make alot of people verbalize thier distaste of riven prices. 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[Tinklzs]

16 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

You say you saved 600p. From what total cost? I paid 80p each for 10 r0 energize just so I could have 1 r3. Still have no use for it. 

Cost for energize last year was in the 2200-2800p range, before DE started giving them away. 

14 hours ago, Yuri_Doujinshi said:

They are so desirable because they are either a flat improvement for almost any frame (see: guardian), or allow you cover an important part of your build and open up a slot for something else (see: Energize, Grace). The reason why Energize is so powerful is that it makes energy regen trivial on most frames in the game, which in turn means you no longer need to run Zenurik or Hunter Adrenaline, and can run something like Vazarin for survivablity or Naramon for melee, or possibly free up a mod slot for something else. Guardian is stupidly good, to the point that I can't think of a reason not to put it on a frame. You know what's better than running Guardian or Adaptation? Running Guardian AND Adaptation, since they don't compete for a mod slot. Guardian is essentially a free 600 armor (1200 if you have 2) to your frame at all times, which works amazingly well on both squishy and tanky frames alike.

Exactly. Seems Phantom doesn't get it. *shrug*

 

13 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

The usage for arcanes just don't justify the price tag as much as rivens do. 

.. in your opinion.   See, we don't have the burden of proof here, everyone else follows the 'system' that supply/demand has dictated.  You're fighting the tsunami of thousands of other players that have decided that rivens deserve to be X price and arcane's Y.    Whether you acknowledge the power of arcanes or not or the relevance (or irrelevance) of rivens is moot. Nothing will change.