Red crits nerfed hard on melee(?)

[Tamatu]

Anyway guys, this melee """rework""" was a really good Halloween prank. We are turning it back after Halloween is over, right? Right?

[LeaserResael]

They destroyed melee after this update. Several builds no longer work, overall damage output against high level enemies (165 and above) is abismal compared to before.
But it's not just the damage that's been nerfed. Forcing people to use combos and use the middle button or whatever they want us to press makes the whole gameplay slower, messy and annoying. This isn't a dark souls type of game where you have slow attacks and so you have time to use combos, in Warframe you need to be fast because you have several enemies around you all the time. And let's not even mention the amount of broken stances and more.
Since the removal of the original quick melee, they've just been going backwards. This is not a fun addition, this is the complete opposite of it. 

I'm disappointed honestly, this just makes me wanna play the game less instead of more. It's just not fun.

[Phatose]

Well, if you're having trouble with level 165 enemies now, use primaries or secondaries or powers.  Cause those weren't nerfed, and if melee wasn't way out of line before, any of them should be an acceptable replacement.  Are they?

[IIDMOII]

The biggest take away from my testing so far is that melee "feels" less efficient than a primary weapon or dps frame now.

Why waste all the forma, credits and endo optimizing a melee build around this new system when you can simply rofl spam from safety with a ranged weapon or ability? 

I was always of the opinion that melee was a fair trade off. You need specific frames and specific builds to make it work (well) and you have to put yourself in harm's way to do damage and maintain your combo counter. You also have to constantly be attacking and adjusting your camera while you bounce around. It's a heck of a lot more involving playstyle than range is.

Not only that but many mission types & tilesets don't even cater to melee. Wide open spaces, sparse enemy spawns, goofy geometry etc.

Someone could argue math all day long but it wouldn't alter my opinion on how it "feels" to play.

 

[FlyingDice]

 

17 hours ago, ryu-hayabusa1 said:

And that right there, is there goal, imo. Choosing whatever weapon you like and not be afraid that it doesn't follow the current meta. 

Yep, right on the nose. The goal now is to get all of the stances polished up to actual usability, because plenty of them are still questionable.

18 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

...Well, and Blood Rush and Condition Overload. Of course, these four things were all disgustingly strong compared to other options, so it's not terribly surprising, and maybe not even a bad thing in the long term. And even though the new CO is tremendously nerfed compared to before, it's still probably the strongest single-slot mod in the entire melee pool.

I haven't done a whole lot of combo testing on various weapons or stances, but it sounds like the general feedback I'm seeing is that the process has been very hit or miss, because the new stances were largely made by just kind of mixing around existing moves to try to vaguely fit them into the new combo paradigms. Some of these work well! Some of these sound to work very poorly.

my own experience is only with redeemer so far and bullet dance feels much, much more awkward and clunky than it ever did before.

Yeah, fair, though both are still usable -- people are just crying since the multipliers aren't as insane as they used to be. Slide attack crit is basically straight up worthless now by comparison unless you run standard crit mods with it. I strongly suspect the core goal to the mod nerfs was to move away from the absolutely suffocating hybrid melee meta where CO+BR+MS+WW+Berserker was the melee build for basically everything aside from edge cases like Redeemer P. I genuinely do like the CO change, since even though the peak damage is something like 40% of what it used to be, it's actually stronger with IIRC 1-3 or 1-4 status conditions applied than old CO was. That in conjunction with the gain from 3-6 being relatively minor (compared to old CO) now means that it's much more viable to run... basically any gun you want without hurting your CO damage much.

Do agree that some of the stances need work, but transitioning the system is the first step to that. Lord knows they wouldn't get anyone to use them at all in 1.9 with how awful they were.

[OvisCaedo]

10 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

I genuinely do like the CO change, since even though the peak damage is something like 40% of what it used to be, it's actually stronger with IIRC 1-3 or 1-4 status conditions applied than old CO was. That in conjunction with the gain from 3-6 being relatively minor (compared to old CO) now means that it's much more viable to run... basically any gun you want without hurting your CO damage much.

Well, not exactly. DE's little chart they put for the comparative multiplier in the update post was a bit misleading. The old CO, even aside from being nonsensibly exponential, was also multiplicative to pressure point. The new CO is additive to it. Which absolutely still leaves it as probably the single strongest mod in the game, but in effect this means it's weaker at all counts compared to before in a normal build, unless one takes this opportunity to OMIT pressure point entirely in favor of another mod. Which could be worth doing, now!

For comparison, previously a weapon with 100 damage and pressure point on would be at 220*1.6, or 352 damage with a single status proc. Now if one had pressure point and a single status proc, the 100 damage weapon would scale to 340 damage from the +240% base melee damage. This gap would be bigger with primed pressure point, and obviously scales extremely hard as you go up the proc counts because of how absurd the old one was.

But, again, one could be looking at a different situation entirely if you CUT pressure point now. Now there's all kinds of questions and mess coming in about what else you might use the slot for, and condition overload might hilariously make pressure point a replacable mod on many melee weapons. There might indeed be some potential combos that come out ahead for the low proc counts.

[GrimAtrament]

14 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

Well, not exactly. DE's little chart they put for the comparative multiplier in the update post was a bit misleading. The old CO, even aside from being nonsensibly exponential, was also multiplicative to pressure point. The new CO is additive to it. Which absolutely still leaves it as probably the single strongest mod in the game, but in effect this means it's weaker at all counts compared to before in a normal build, unless one takes this opportunity to OMIT pressure point entirely in favor of another mod. Which could be worth doing, now!

For comparison, previously a weapon with 100 damage and pressure point on would be at 220*1.6, or 352 damage with a single status proc. Now if one had pressure point and a single status proc, the 100 damage weapon would scale to 340 damage from the +240% base melee damage. This gap would be bigger with primed pressure point, and obviously scales extremely hard as you go up the proc counts because of how absurd the old one was.

But, again, one could be looking at a different situation entirely if you CUT pressure point now. Now there's all kinds of questions and mess coming in about what else you might use the slot for, and condition overload might hilariously make pressure point a replacable mod on many melee weapons. There might indeed be some potential combos that come out ahead for the low proc counts.

DE did say they wanted to shift away from pressure point serration etc from being mandatory mods.

[SpentCasings]

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah it goes up at a fraction of what it used to and doesn’t calculate with the other stats that boost damage. Just saying “it’s additive” doesn’t suddenly make the nerf not terrible.

Additive is the nerf

before it MULTIPLIED by your base damage

now it just adds to it. I dont need to tell you mulitplying damage yeilds exponentially higher damage than adding. 

[SpentCasings]

10 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

DE did say they wanted to shift away from pressure point serration etc from being mandatory mods.

.....Why?

 

Thats like saying you dont want Inaros to run Vitality...like...wtf is the point?

[GrimAtrament]

1 minute ago, SpentCasings said:

.....Why?

 

Thats like saying you dont want Inaros to run Vitality...like...wtf is the point?

from what i've seen in there dev streams DE doesn't like mandatory stuff in there game. they like keeping builds open to experimentation which is why they have more often destroyed meta's then enforced them.  which as some one who also dislike meta as it breed elitesm mentalities. i appreciate even if it does lead to  lot's of change. they didn't like how pure damage mod's left  out a lot of optional mods. this might also explain the base melee damage buff

 

 

[Cha0zb0rn]

19 hours ago, bibmobello said:

It's infinitely till you reach the limit, you are not forced to play survivals for 24 hours.

It should be the opposite of that statement: You should be able to if you want and if you dont want it's ok as well. Somebody who did 4-6h runs never hurt anybody. they had no effect on the causual player. They never impacted the pleasure of the game for anybody and gave the game a purpose at level 27. Now that is all gone. Once you finish the story thats it. You can try to struggle to get a 2h run to work now, great achievement. Or you just switch to another game. And guess whats more likely to happen..... 

[SpentCasings]

1 minute ago, hazerddex said:

from what i've seen in there dev streams DE doesn't like mandatory stuff in there game. they like keeping builds open to experimentation which is why they have more often destroyed meta's then enforced them.  which as some one who also dislike meta as it breed elitesm mentalities. i appreciate even if it does lead to  lot's of change. they didn't like how pure damage mod's left  out a lot of optional mods. this might also explain the base melee damage buff

 

 

Ok lets just remove elements while you are at it. ....lol 

 

If they wanted build diversity they could have simply comboed the 60/60 mods, so adding ONE mod would allow you to run corrosive for example. Then I would have room for silly experimentation. and i can assure you most of my builds arent meta and this update is still very MEH to me. 

 

I COULD run the BR+CC combo but i like having utility mods on my weapons such as Primed reach..(Or I used to, they nerfed range) so for everything except probably ONE polearm i cannot run that build unless i get a Riven with a very specific set of bonuses that would allow me to replace one of my mods. TO date haven't gotten it yet. 

[GrimAtrament]

2 minutes ago, SpentCasings said:

Ok lets just remove elements while you are at it. ....lol 

 

If they wanted build diversity they could have simply comboed the 60/60 mods, so adding ONE mod would allow you to run corrosive for example. Then I would have room for silly experimentation. and i can assure you most of my builds arent meta and this update is still very MEH to me. 

 

I COULD run the BR+CC combo but i like having utility mods on my weapons such as Primed reach..(Or I used to, they nerfed range) so for everything except probably ONE polearm i cannot run that build unless i get a Riven with a very specific set of bonuses that would allow me to replace one of my mods. TO date haven't gotten it yet. 

that's a false equivalency.

elemental mods don't just buff damage they add elements which have status procs

PP only adds to base damage nothing else.

 

 

but then what about the people that just want the fire 60/60 mod 

 

or the toxic 60/60 mod

Edited November 1, 2019 by hazerddex

[SpentCasings]

Just now, hazerddex said:

elemental mods don't just buff damage they add elements

But they take up mod space. and technically they DO add damage. My point was if they wanted more diversity or more oddball mods being used in melee builds free up mod space. That's one place to start. 

[GrimAtrament]

2 minutes ago, SpentCasings said:

But they take up mod space. and technically they DO add damage. My point was if they wanted more diversity or more oddball mods being used in melee builds free up mod space. That's one place to start. 

they also add status procs and 60/60 mods add status chance not just elements. 

and not everyone runs corrosive some of us run viral or toxic. cold, fire or radation etc.

so again false equivalency 

pp only adds to base damage which could be removed and just placed in the weapons as it's max rank damage instead which would also free up mod space would it not?

Edited November 1, 2019 by hazerddex

[Kaiser_Suoh]

I hate stealth nerfs.

[Yamazuki]

5 hours ago, Phatose said:

Well, if you're having trouble with level 165 enemies now, use primaries or secondaries or powers.  Cause those weren't nerfed, and if melee wasn't way out of line before, any of them should be an acceptable replacement.  Are they?

The point is having melee weapons being able to compete with primary/secondaries at a minimum when it comes to damage output, because well, they're melee and can't 1 shot enemies from accross the room like guns and abilities do. Melee also loses damage anytime you die or stay out of combat long, which is again something most guns or abilities never have to deal with either. The changes kept all the drawbacks of being melee while reducing damage; and it's not as if primary/secondary weapons and abilities are going to have their damage drastically reduced too.

[Nuhauskis]

The gladiator mod set bonus is bugged and doesn't even apply any crit chance right now.

[lmpossibIe]

I feel like people just need to try new weapons rather than focus on the old. DE knew that there would be old weapons that are bad but there are also new weapons that are good. This is some of the damage that I've been doing with the reaper prime of all things lol...

[Odeusus.exe]

On 2019-11-02 at 3:04 AM, lmpossibIe said:

I feel like people just need to try new weapons rather than focus on the old. DE knew that there would be old weapons that are bad but there are also new weapons that are good. This is some of the damage that I've been doing with the reaper prime of all things lol...

Yep seems like people can't accept their meta weapons & slide to win builds got nerfed.
Instead of being open to this wonderfull rework which makes pretty much any melee a viable weapon now.

- Many melee's got stat buffs to make them more inline with eachother, giving players alot more options without feeling gimped.

- Stances aren't useless anymore, before you were glued to the ground while doing a 5 second long combo while you're getting torn to shreds by enemies just unloading on you.

- It's alot easier to build up your combo & then spend it with lifestrike to heal yourself, aka less mandatory mods when going for melee builds thus resulting in alot more variety & fun.

Only downside is that this destroyed the meta, however I personally never cared for it I was always happy using my Krohkur, Ripkas and Jat Kittag :)

[(NSW)draugath]

I've read a lot of these various posts and of course there are a lot I haven't read.  The one thing I haven't seen talked about is understanding the change.  I get the impression that they're trying to rebalance the game.  This obviously necessitates some, on the surface, hard changes.  A straight apples-to-apples comparison will show a net loss of power.  It's not that power is neccesarily being taken away but that the scope is changing.  This requires a paradigm shift that is obviously difficult for those who like sitting in front of the game for 8+ hours on a single endless run. 

I obviously can't speak to long term plans, but I hope there are plans to balance other parts of the game to bring it all within this new scope.

[Tamatu]

15 hours ago, (NSW)draugath said:

I've read a lot of these various posts and of course there are a lot I haven't read.  The one thing I haven't seen talked about is understanding the change.  I get the impression that they're trying to rebalance the game.  This obviously necessitates some, on the surface, hard changes.  A straight apples-to-apples comparison will show a net loss of power.  It's not that power is neccesarily being taken away but that the scope is changing.  This requires a paradigm shift that is obviously difficult for those who like sitting in front of the game for 8+ hours on a single endless run. 

I obviously can't speak to long term plans, but I hope there are plans to balance other parts of the game to bring it all within this new scope.

An overall rebalance is 100% of what they are doing, and it's much needed.

What I find a huge issue with is that we have been promised melee 3.0 for 2+ years now and it's only 2/3rds of the way here. Other aspects like guns, warframe powers, survivability (or lack there of), armor scaling, infinite enemy scaling, nullies, feast or famine energy playstyles (thanks to how taking away energy works), will all need to be addressed to have a coherent system.

Given the pace of things, what we will have for the next 5-10 years is probably going to be a huge mixed bag of few but larger content drops and old stuff being made worse before addressing the other side of things.

What I mentioned above about build flexibility is still a huge issue one way or another, and not even being to reach above 1st tier of redcrits with the very best of crit melees just makes me question why have multipel red tiers exist in the first place.
Also, before if something wasn't a good crit weapon for blood rush (20's or below) you could make it perform well enough, now you can't. Now CO is an even bigger must pick, while also being worse. I don't see any value given, just flexibility taken.

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by ToaTamatu

[(PSN)Eluminary]

Since this was originally posted (10/31) there have been changes... When melee 3.0 originally went in the gladiator mod set wasn't working at all.   Since they fixed that getting to red crits is quite easy again using bloodrush and the Helios weapon as a gladiator mod holder... There are some setups now that exceed the DPS of the old system... not that I want to popularize some of the ones I'm using because I'm expecting some of them to be Nerfed...

[PhoenixFury]

Looks like we might actually use guns in a third person shooter again.

[Tamatu]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Eluminary said:

Since this was originally posted (10/31) there have been changes... When melee 3.0 originally went in the gladiator mod set wasn't working at all.   Since they fixed that getting to red crits is quite easy again using bloodrush and the Helios weapon as a gladiator mod holder... There are some setups now that exceed the DPS of the old system... not that I want to popularize some of the ones I'm using because I'm expecting some of them to be Nerfed...

Since that gladiator bugfix i have been using nikana prime, it's quite alright for lower end stuff.