Condition Overload + Pressure Point additive formula is where the nerf went too far.

[Steel_Rook]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

First, I want to clear up that this is just a misunderstanding. I'm not recommending the mod be reverted to its Pre-Update 26 state. So my formula is correct for what I'm recommending.

Fair enough. My bad.

 

14 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

What you're asking for is a lot more radical change than what I'm recommending. If I am clear on what you're saying, you want every Damage Mod type in the game to be consolidated into one Additive pool of buffs. This is basically an entirely different conversation. In fact, it's basically your own idea for Damage 3.0. Are players going to go for that? Is DE even going to entertain that idea? All of that is highly speculative.

That's a "yes" on all counts. I firmly believe we're well overdue for some kind of massive, across-the-board change sooner rather than later, but I also suspect that DE will want to phase that in rather than dumping it all at once. Making all damage buffs additive all at once would be extreme, but they seem to be doing it a few at a time and achieving the same result slower and more gradually. I'd argue that issues of buff stacking are too obvious for DE to not have noticed and brainstormed solutions, and the change to Condition Overload strikes me as tacit admission of such. This is speculative, obviously, but I speculate that what happened to Condition Overload is neither accidental nor is it going to be isolated. If they're smart, they're going to try transitioning towards additive buffs and away from multiplicative ones.

 

14 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

However, like you said "a multiplicative damage buff based on status stacks is comparable to critical damage, because critical damage itself is multiplicative with base damage."

A couple of points here. Firstly - as I covered above - I expect criticals to move closer to Condition Overload as time goes on, rather than Condition Overload moving back towards criticals. No sense repeating points, however.

Secondly, the comparison here isn't quite apt. Condition Overload is just one mod, available to just melee weapons while "critical hits" as a concept are an entire game mechanic available to practically all means of attack, from melee to guns to Warframe abilities, and probably other things that I can't think of right now. I understand wanting Status builds to be comparable to Critical builds, but hinging all of it on one mod for one weapon class is the wrong way to go about it. Yes, it does sort of get the job done in this particular corner case, but it's putting bandages on gunshot wounds. Status itself is deeply flawed, from the way Status Chance is back-calculated to the way status effects are distributed and what they do, to indeed the way status effect damage is handled.

I expect you'll respond with the same argument as above - that sweeping changes to the Status System amount to Damage 3.0 and are out of scope for this issue. You wouldn't be entirely wrong to say that, I freely admit. My point, however, is that the game's current damage buff and status system is sufficiently flawed that Condition Overload can only ever be a "dirty hack" keeping part of the system from collapsing in on itself. I'm personally in favour of radical design changes, even if they have to be delivered piecemeal, because trying to patch and prop up the existing system only creates further problems down the line. As such, I'd rather retain Condition Overload where it is and later change more mods and systems to work like it, rather than going back on a fairly significant design goal change.

 

13 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Haven't you found out that DE has been on a nerfing spree for sometime?

As they should be. Warframe where it sits right now is suffering from extreme, uncontrolled power creep to the point where the game's own systems no longer function properly and DE's ability to design encounters of any kind is becoming increasingly limited. One need look no further than the Wolf of Saturn Six for an objective example of why that's an issue. An enemy who can simultaneously be trivial to defeat for some and yet utterly impossible for others within a very narrow spectrum of veterancy tells you everything you need to know about just how volatile the game's balance is. DE are fast-approaching the point of unsustainability, and they seem to have finally realised this. The reason you're seeing sweeping nerfs is because they don't have a lot of options left if they want to be able to add to the game. Far as I'm concerned, they aren't moving nearly as fast or as aggressively as they should be, given how long they sat on very old, very fundamental issues.

I know that complaining about "bad balance" is cliche at this point, but I'd argue that this game is an objective example that sometimes... Yeah, that actually is a valid complaint. When the developers themselves struggle to design encounters without invalidating people's progression (invulnerably frames, ability immunity, removing mod functionality, gimmick boss fights, etc), that's a four-alarm fire which can only go ignored for so long until it burns down something important.

[iSolement]

This kind of formula also leads misunderstanding of panel stats. 

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

19 hours ago, iSolement said:

This kind of formula also leads misunderstanding of panel stats. 

Yeah a lot of people aren't going to realize what this means for Condition Overload. I've already demonstrated how the additive formula for CO can cut the damage by about half for a plausible scenario (vs. if it was multiplied by Pressure Point). But a lot of people who didn't read the patch notes will probably think that it applies multiplicatively, as it did before. Then I suppose they'll just be puzzled as to why the damage feels weaker now.

[ciTiger]

The numbers were good if the formula was the same. The formula isn't the same so the numbers are bad.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

12 hours ago, ciTiger said:

The numbers were good if the formula was the same. The formula isn't the same so the numbers are bad.

 

I don't think the CO formula should be exactly as it was before. Before, every stack of the Mod multiplying times each other was more akin to Exponential than multiplicative. It's okay that the Status stacks of the Mod scale more linearly now (120%, 240%, 360%, etc.).

But now that this old broken scaling has been fixed, we should at least be able to keep this Damage on a separate multiplier slot than Pressure Point. This way we compromise between having Additive math where it makes sense, along with Multiplication where it makes sense.  As I've already demonstrated, putting the CO Damage in the same additive slot with Pressure Point makes it about half as effective. That's just a nerf too far for this particular situation. Reversing just that one decision would put CO on a similar scaling trajectory to Crit weapons. It's so close to being in a great place for the game.

I suspect we haven't heard much out of DE on the Melee front because they have so many changes and feedback posts to consider. I think we will probably get a big Melee patch in a few weeks bringing a lot of positive Melee changes like this. They usually have a post-launch revisit of big reworks, and I'm holding out faith that they will make the right decision.

[FiveN9ne]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

 

I don't think the CO formula should be exactly as it was before. Before, every stack of the Mod multiplying times each other was more akin to Exponential than multiplicative. It's okay that the Status stacks of the Mod scale more linearly now (120%, 240%, 360%, etc.).

But now that this old broken scaling has been fixed, we should at least be able to keep this Damage on a separate multiplier slot than Pressure Point. This way we compromise between having Additive math where it makes sense, along with Multiplication where it makes sense.  As I've already demonstrated, putting the CO Damage in the same additive slot with Pressure Point makes it about half as effective. That's just a nerf too far for this particular situation. Reversing just that one decision would put CO on a similar scaling trajectory to Crit weapons. It's so close to being in a great place for the game.

I suspect we haven't heard much out of DE on the Melee front because they have so many changes and feedback posts to consider. I think we will probably get a big Melee patch in a few weeks bringing a lot of positive Melee changes like this. They usually have a post-launch revisit of big reworks, and I'm holding out faith that they will make the right decision.

Imo CO should be separate from PPP like you said and also BR shouldn't scale off of base crit but modded crit. This way, it's still weaker than before but there would still be an incentive to use dmg and cc stats in melee. As it currently stands, +crit chance mods/rivens and +dmg mods/rivens are useless and nobody will use them (I think most people would agree that this makes no sense and shouldn't be the case).

It would also make a lot more melee's viable and usable. At the moment, meta will shift towards highest base cc melees, because they are the clear winners. Why use a 20% cc weapon and do yellow crits when you can use a clearly better 30+ cc weapon and do red crits. There is no comparison it's just mathematically better. I don't know about other players, but i would feel bad using a weapon i like that's clearly weaker (when it doesn't have to be). BR scaling off modded crit will make it a more even playing field without causing power spikes or breaking the game. A 20% cc weapon + sac steel will be able to compete. Vice versa, the 30+ weapon can still be similar level but can save a slot (the weaker one used sac steel to close the gap). This will also make rivens more viable and disposition would also play a role. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by FiveN9ne

[(PSN)FK2P]

They’ve done a chroma... ew

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

On 2019-11-09 at 9:22 AM, FiveN9ne said:

Imo CO should be separate from PPP like you said and also BR shouldn't scale off of base crit but modded crit. This way, it's still weaker than before but there would still be an incentive to use dmg and cc stats in melee. As it currently stands, +crit chance mods/rivens and +dmg mods/rivens are useless and nobody will use them (I think most people would agree that this makes no sense and shouldn't be the case).

It would also make a lot more melee's viable and usable. At the moment, meta will shift towards highest base cc melees, because they are the clear winners. Why use a 20% cc weapon and do yellow crits when you can use a clearly better 30+ cc weapon and do red crits. There is no comparison it's just mathematically better. I don't know about other players, but i would feel bad using a weapon i like that's clearly weaker (when it doesn't have to be). BR scaling off modded crit will make it a more even playing field without causing power spikes or breaking the game. A 20% cc weapon + sac steel will be able to compete. Vice versa, the 30+ weapon can still be similar level but can save a slot (the weaker one used sac steel to close the gap). This will also make rivens more viable and disposition would also play a role. 

Yeah I think DE is trying to be reasonable. Some of their changes make sense (like making CO procs stack 120% additively with each other). But I just don't think they've been detail oriented enough to realize how taking the Additive calculation all the way (by making it all Additive with Pressure Point also) actually makes the damage a lot worse unnecessarily. And that's making players omit either CO or PPP from builds. And I don't think DE's goal for CO was to make people stop using it. And making people stop using the Melee Base damage mods like Primed Pressure Point is even crazier.

And yeah, the Blood Rush & Riven CC situation is similar. I don't think the way Crit mods worked before was a perfect formula (just like CO wasn't perfect before either). But there has to be some sort of reasonable compromise position for that situation too. CC on Rivens doesn't deserve to be obsolete any more than CO or PPP does. Hopefully continuing to provide feedback like this will help them figure it out.

[GruntBlender]

It might be part of armor scaling rework I'm sure they're quietly working on. Improving damage level control by removing exponential increases tightens the damage range and removes to 10-100x times disparity even on similar builds. Then they can adjust the armor mechanics so the EHP has a tighter range too, without some bulids being extremely overpowered while making others nonviable. Having a tighter range would allow greater freedom in making builds, more customization to your play style, removing the need for 'mandatory' mods.

[RedDirtTrooper]

48 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

It might be part of armor scaling rework I'm sure they're quietly working on. Improving damage level control by removing exponential increases tightens the damage range and removes to 10-100x times disparity even on similar builds. Then they can adjust the armor mechanics so the EHP has a tighter range too, without some bulids being extremely overpowered while making others nonviable. Having a tighter range would allow greater freedom in making builds, more customization to your play style, removing the need for 'mandatory' mods.

How sure of that are you? I'd like to believe it's true, but I've also heard a lot of hollow talk about reworking armor since back before they implemented damage 2.0, when everyone was using toxin and puncture damage to bypass it. Folks these days just rank up the Acrid for mastery and throw it away without realizing that it used to be more busted than the catchmoon or tonkor ever hoped to be. Here we are years later with the armor rework supposedly around the corner the entire time. So excuse me if I take any comment they make about working on armor a little skeptically. 

[ciTiger]

5 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

How sure of that are you? I'd like to believe it's true, but I've also heard a lot of hollow talk about reworking armor since back before they implemented damage 2.0, when everyone was using toxin and puncture damage to bypass it. Folks these days just rank up the Acrid for mastery and throw it away without realizing that it used to be more busted than the catchmoon or tonkor ever hoped to be. Here we are years later with the armor rework supposedly around the corner the entire time. So excuse me if I take any comment they make about working on armor a little skeptically. 

Oh the acrid (and soma for that matter) eh x)

Waiting for news.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

On 2019-11-10 at 9:54 PM, GruntBlender said:

It might be part of armor scaling rework I'm sure they're quietly working on. Improving damage level control by removing exponential increases tightens the damage range and removes to 10-100x times disparity even on similar builds. Then they can adjust the armor mechanics so the EHP has a tighter range too, without some bulids being extremely overpowered while making others nonviable. Having a tighter range would allow greater freedom in making builds, more customization to your play style, removing the need for 'mandatory' mods.

I would love it if they are actually intending to fix Armor scaling in the near future. But I'm not super confident in that. When they mentioned it on the Devstream, it seemed very passive. Like it was just something they wanted to do eventually.

But even if they are going to finally fix that glaring hole in the game, I feel like they still need to do something about CO. As it stands right now, I just don't think its calculation makes sense regardless of what Armor is doing. The reasoning behind a Status Build is just weird right now. Players have to decide if they want to omit CO (which is essentially a failure in reworking the mod), or omit Pressure Point instead (which is an even weirder failure). Or they just have to eat the diminishing returns and use them at the same time. Or they could just forget about all of this mess, and just use a good Crit weapon instead so that there are no additive diminishing returns.

But yeah, I will agree that if they finally did something about armor, that would help decrease the demand for everything to have some sort of Armor bypass or counter that feels "mandatory". And things that currently don't have such an Armor solution (Baruuk's Serene Storm has been my personal biggest example) would finally be more viable.

[GruntBlender]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

The reasoning behind a Status Build is just weird right now. Players have to decide if they want to omit CO (which is essentially a failure in reworking the mod), or omit Pressure Point instead (which is an even weirder failure).

Or omit an element and aim for Slash procs with the highest damage, bypassing armor all together.

[AlphaIIOmega]

On 2019-11-03 at 10:47 PM, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Actually, Mods multiplying by Mods is the basis of most weapon builds in Warframe. Unless you want to fundamentally change how damage generally works ...

They should fundamentally change how mods interacting with mods work. 

It should be [damage source] * damage multiplier (all damage multipliers from all sources add together here) * critical damage if appropriate.

This should then be calculated independently for each damage source (slash, toxin, magnetic, etc.). 

And I'd like to see impact/slash/puncture mods buffed by making elemental damage calculated from your weapons base damage + any additional impact/slash/puncture damage from those mods. So if your base damage is 100, and a mod gives you +50 puncture damage, elemental damage should be calculated from an effective 150 base damage. This would only work for ISP damage, and not elemental damage increasing elemental damage. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by AlphaIIOmega

[GruntBlender]

5 hours ago, AlphaIIOmega said:

They should fundamentally change how mods interacting with mods work. 

It should be [damage source] * damage multiplier (all damage multipliers from all sources add together here) * critical damage if appropriate.

This should then be calculated independently for each damage source (slash, toxin, magnetic, etc.). 

And I'd like to see impact/slash/puncture mods buffed by making elemental damage calculated from your weapons base damage + any additional impact/slash/puncture damage from those mods. So if your base damage is 100, and a mod gives you +50 puncture damage, elemental damage should be calculated from an effective 150 base damage. This would only work for ISP damage, and not elemental damage increasing elemental damage. 

I disagree with IPS mods increasing elemental damage. As it is, they provide about as much bonus damage as elemental mods. They do need a little buff in numbers, and I think slash mods should count towards the slash proc bleed damage like toxin mods count towards toxin proc damage. But that's about it. The current damage system works the way you say it should with that equation.

[(PSN)Glitschig]

"Not a penny more,".  ...A lot of people I know

 

I read every word in this thread and thanks for some great explanations on how this works, numbers-wise.  This is a bad look for this game.  I started playing about 10 months ago asking with some other people and, to date, I have probably financially supported this game more than I have some of my favorite games that I think are amazing.  But now, after seeing how this is going, myself and some others I have spoken to are taping the brakes.  

I think we can all understand seeing a problem in the game but the fixes employed are, at best, not good, and , at worst, thinly veiled and calculated  attempts to increase revenue and ignore the time players have put into this game.  Nevermind the fact that so many things feel broken in the way I can approach the game right now, I just get I'll when I think of the amount of time I put into researching and understanding how to build effective weapons and then the time and resources it took to build them.  And they are all gone.

I have seen those in games over the years.  Back in the day we would say the devs are singing a Nerf bat and the only thing they are knocking out of the park are the paying customers.

 People cried for balance and instead what they got was they got nuked back to equivalent of having to right with stone age technology.  Instead of fixing their issues with scaling, they took everyone's guns and handed them toilet paper rolls.  I know it is the nature of this game to be grind and lot but not everyone wants to grind excessively ALL the time.  Certainly, people who have already put in their literal hundreds of hours of work want their rugs  pulled from beneath them. We don't always want to be thinking out five melee combo button combinations in advance. Sometimes we simply want to real the rewards of all that grinding and just may some buttons, slide and spin into a pack of bad guys, and slice them up.  

This fix reminds me a lot of the basic flaw I see in this game in regards to how the devs think they are creating something good but aren't-it's like this missions that you log into and it takes you 2 minutes to get to the Emmy and then another minute to get to extraction... But only about 15 seconds to defeat them.  The devs have misplaced their focus on what is important.  I have played some MMORPGs where it may take 30 minutes to take down a bad guy...and somehow that feels more rewarding.   

I think the game may be on a slippery slope of the devs don't aknowledge they cant disregard the effort and time their fanbase has put into the game.most people that are upset are upset because of wasted time and the game missing the mark on what players come to the game to enjoy.  

 

[GruntBlender]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Glitschig said:

People cried for balance and instead what they got was they got nuked back to equivalent of having to right with stone age technology.  Instead of fixing their issues with scaling, they took everyone's guns and handed them toilet paper rolls.

What are you talking about? Like, really, what? Guns weren't touched beyond the hilariously broken catchmoon, which is now a little less broken. Melee is still good; maybe less DPS from meta builds, but more fun and varied.

Yeah, enemy scaling has been broken forever, and narrowing the range of our damage outputs actually goes towards fixing that a little and allows for future fixes that won't break the game. The only ones really suffering are the 2+ hours endurance runners, and the game was never meant for that.

[Eljureo]

This is great now, pressure point, drifting contact, condition overload,  blood rush are nolonger default mods. That is now 2-3 mods you do not need and can replace with something fun. 

[ciTiger]

Still waiting for an improvement over the nerfs.