The HUGE Zenistar nerf

[LSG501]

Yeah another vote for... can we get the 'old' version back... not only did it get a nerf with change to 'damage through walls' that DE used to try and solve spin to win the first time (lets be honest it failed, and all we have in return is clipping issues) we now have this nerf from the latest rework...

What hurts the most is that some of us had to login for 300 days before we could even get it....

[SayikVindal]

The Glaive and Gunstar changes are not intuitive IMO, but the Zenistar change is more punative than anything else. The duration is the real problem, the other changes are rough but not impossible to adapt to.

The duration went from workable to annoying in one swing. A reduction from 45 seconds down to 7 really punished those players that used the weapon as designed. It rewards players that use the weapon as a pure melee weapon, which perhaps was it's original design intent but most certainly was NOT the best way to use it.

It was a mediocre melee weapon at best in the past. It's best feature was the AoE mine. Now it is a decent melee weapon with a mediocre AoE mine that really is only useful in specific circumstances unless it is charged first.

This was the worst change in all the changes for secondary fire melee weapons IMO.

[zoli98]

So as you probably know melle 2.9.87.69 is now out featuring heavy attacks and other "usefull" things, but zenister our favorite hold e and kill everything got "nerfed",

but here is a few ideas how we can make them good again:

1: You know if you have the disck out and do a heavy atack it will retract the disc? Well how about we dont do that anymore.
      1.1: make the disc teleport to the player posibly with added duration(you know from the combo counter you are on (do not let the duratino go over 120 sec that would be a bit op))
      1.2: launch a new disc and posibly keep the old one (i know this could be broken as well but if you are in the range of the old disc you retract it and at the remaing duration to you combo counter or something like that)

2: since it cant go trough walls anymore you cna make it the it gets stronger the closer an enemy is to the disc (exemple: normal dmg is 500 so at the edge is 500 athe helf its 750 athe the center its doubled so 1000)

 

I really hope you guys agree with me and even if you dont or just dont care upvote this so DE notices thsi and posobly probably and hopefully make some of these change
TLDR (MZGA) Make Zenister Great Again

 

Spoiler

 

Hey i see you are still reading, well thanks for that but there is nothing there for you here.
No really turn back.

i am warning you you shouldnt be here.
Oh No now you di.....................

Look at them, they come to this place when they know they are not pure. Tenno use the keys, but they are mere trespassers. Only I, Vor, know the true power of the Void. I was cut in half, destroyed, but through it's Janus Key, the Void called to me. It brought me here and here I was reborn. We cannot blame these creatures, they are being led by a false prophet, an impostor who knows not the secrets of the Void. Behold the Tenno, come to scavenge and desecrate this sacred realm. My brothers, did I not tell of this day? Did I not prophesize this moment? Now, I will stop them. Now I am changed, reborn through the energy of the Janus Key. Forever bound to the Void. Let it be known, if the Tenno want true salvation, they will lay down their arms, and wait for the baptism of my Janus key. It is time. I will teach these trespassers the redemptive power of my Janus key. They will learn it's simple truth. The Tenno are lost, and they will resist. But I, Vor, will cleanse this place of their impurity.

 

 

[George_PPS]

Nerfing is the new endgame. Fun and efficient weapons are banned. 

[Holo]

8 hours ago, SayikVindal said:

The Glaive and Gunstar changes are not intuitive IMO, but the Zenistar change is more punative than anything else. The duration is the real problem, the other changes are rough but not impossible to adapt to.

The duration went from workable to annoying in one swing. A reduction from 45 seconds down to 7 really punished those players that used the weapon as designed. It rewards players that use the weapon as a pure melee weapon, which perhaps was it's original design intent but most certainly was NOT the best way to use it.

It was a mediocre melee weapon at best in the past. It's best feature was the AoE mine. Now it is a decent melee weapon with a mediocre AoE mine that really is only useful in specific circumstances unless it is charged first.

This was the worst change in all the changes for secondary fire melee weapons IMO.

Excellent way to put it. I completely agree that the Zenistar never seemed to want to fit in as a melee weapon. The fact that DE is now pushing it to be a MELEE weapon and not the Zenistar is really quite odd. It seems like the Zeni is being changed to an entirely new beast simply because DE did not like the way it was. And even beside this, the fact that there has been no official statement from DE about the Zenistar (from what i can tell) is insulting to the massive amounts of players that loved and used that weapon religiously.

[George_PPS]

2 minutes ago, HoloWheatenTail said:

Excellent way to put it. I completely agree that the Zenistar never seemed to want to fit in as a melee weapon. The fact that DE is now pushing it to be a MELEE weapon and not the Zenistar is really quite odd. It seems like the Zeni is being changed to an entirely new beast simply because DE did not like the way it was. And even beside this, the fact that there has been no official statement from DE about the Zenistar (from what i can tell) is insulting to the massive amounts of players that loved and used that weapon religiously.

I am turned off that now DE dedicates and us to use what they want us to use after nerfing our favorite weapons and play styles. terrible. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Zenistar hasn’t been good since they stopped melee going through walls.

[zoli98]

I dont know man feels good to me.

[Xzorn]

15 hours ago, George_PPS said:

I am turned off that now DE dedicates and us to use what they want us to use after nerfing our favorite weapons and play styles. terrible. 

 

I think what might be worse is they generally revert the overly savage nerfs over time. Simulor / Tonkor are great examples. They now function more like they should have after being nerfed (if at all) personally Simulor scaled like dooky but I get it. They just wanted people to stop using those weapons. Then they bring them back into the light with more reasonable changes but the community has moved on so we end up with one in hundreds of underused weapons which is esp sad when they have unique mechanics.

Most conversations I had about Zenistar. People thought it wasn't good and in the "typical" game it's not. So I'm confused what the aim for this change was. It's still not a good melee weapon and the Disc is certainly not enough to sell it as such so it's still Zenistar as we know it (A disc thrower) but made useless.

[Zelmen]

Normally I can adjust to the changes but this is more than a tweak. This is like removing the bubble from frost but keeping the knockback / stun. Removing a main component that attracted players is going to hurt. I have unequipped my Zenistar because I used to use it as a CC tool. That tool is now dead because the micro management of combos to keep it going hurts the game play with other weapons.

DE, please increase the base timer again. I expect this weapon to lose popularity.

Selfish moment: I only wish I knew this before buying the skin for it only weeks before this update. It will get dusty now.

[Xzorn]

On 2019-10-31 at 9:33 PM, Aldain said:

...That's...the entire point?

So you can't throw a disk and stop playing the game every few minutes.

 

Wouldn't be able to do that if DE had fixed stealth multiplier damage on the disc which is obviously not a melee source of damage. Then later making it work with Condition Overload, again bad idea. Even lowing it's base damage is an option over demolishing the weapons unique feature and utility.

Some know by now I don't even try when it comes to enemies under lvl 100. Spin in circles with Ignis, run some generic AoE spam frame. Jumpspin with Mesa. Doesn't matter, enemies aren't worth effort at those levels for me nor do they require any thought to vaporize in 0.2s.

200k Iron Skin against lvl 100's hold on, gunna go make a sandwich...  Zenistar's greatest value has always been it's utility, just like Pox or Zakti. They don't do "real" damage on their own but they have features to mix into other aspects of the game to create, well simply put a more diverse and interesting game.

Viral + Heat Zenistar, Corrosive Pox and Nidus is still one of my favorite synergy combos and it's not fake synergy like DE tries to pull. It's real synergy.

[Xzorn]

On 2019-11-02 at 10:55 AM, Manzah said:

We never wanted this, we are expecting changes, we know we have to adapt to a brand new system, but not to denaturate entirely what we got.

 

I mean technically we didn't even get much for changes. We got a directional Slam Attack and we can now do combos with Melee Quick Attack.

The rest is just a global nerf to melee and 1 new mechanic that few players will likely use. I'm not gunna use Lift. I need to be mobile, dodge, get in quick slashes and move not play juggle the Moa. Don't need to CC an enemy you're hitting in melee. They stagger. It's the ones at your flanks you have to worry about.

[(XBOX)poodlebingo 65]

DE, in Dev Stream 266 at 29 mins you were almost 'selling' the change to Zenistar as an improvement. This was dishonest and an attempt to divert the possible furore as a consequence of your undisclosed (at the time) nerf. The only reason to use the Zenistar is because, as others have stated, of its utility i.e. the spinning disc and the respite that it affords. Please revert your nerf as it's now a pig with lipstick.

Edited November 9, 2019 by (XB1)poodlebingo 65

[SayikVindal]

 Well, I do think it's actually a better melee weapon than it was though it's certainly not great. It does seem to be boosted a bit in direct melee damage and a bit in range.

The disk duration nerf is brutal however.

[GrimSinner]

What was the point of this?  DE takes the Zenistar that is unique, useful, and fun and totally destroys it.  I disagree with this nerf/punishment system DE uses against players having too much fun with their favorite weapons.   

All the biased Warframe partners about to lecture me on balancing can save your breath.  The reality is you better not have too much fun with anything in the game, DE will take it away from you.

 

[GrimSinner]

Zenistar is dead. 

It's your fault, you had too much fun with it, so DE is taking it away from you.  Now, go play with your Heat Sword, but not too much fun, you'll lose that too.

[krimit]

bump revert the disk 45 seconds please.

[goodwyn3]

RIP Zenistar 😥

[GrimSinner]

On 2019-10-31 at 8:33 PM, Aldain said:

...That's...the entire point?

So you can't throw a disk and stop playing the game every few minutes.

I was one of those who had to wait 300 login days to finally get my Zenistar.  After working to forma and mod the Zenistar, it became so fun to play and served it's purpose well as a extra layer of protection over defense points, CC'ing high level enemies in longer runs, holding an interception point when going solo, strategically locking down a hallway or choke point, etc.  It helped on teams but it was especially helpful when playing solo missions that would require an extra player otherwise.  It was the one weapon with a unique, fun mechanic that was a delight to play and find useful tactics for deploying the disk.  Not anymore, it's broken, in a bad way.

By the time I build up enough combo to get decent disk time, the mission or wave is over.  If I have enough combo, it freaking resets before the next wave starts, forcing me to use Naramon/Drifting Contact when I need a different focus school.  If I throw the disk in a bad spot, my combo is gone so recalling it to reposition is worthless.  While the disk is out, my Zenistar does not build combo counter when I'm using the weapon as melee which is just dumb.  But ultimately, the mechanic that made the Zenistar a great login milestone weapon is ruined.

A login weapon you wait 300 days to get should be an EXCEPTIONAL weapon and not this nerfed into the ground garbage it is today.  Had I known DE was going to do this, I would have chosen the Zenith instead because it's about the only useful login weapon left now, but nowhere near as useful as the pre-nerf Zenistar.

The "Nerf" and "Cancel Fun" culture in the name of balancing (or destroying in the case of Zenistar) is getting ridiculous.  Just stop already.  Some things should just be left alone.

[SayikVindal]

The reward part is what irritates me the most. The second most irritating part of this change is the lack of comment from the devs.

At least demonstrate you hear us and explain your thoughts here...its your game, your rules.

[Holo]

On 2019-11-08 at 1:47 AM, krimit said:

bump revert the disk 45 seconds please.

This really needs to happen. The zenistar is in a spot right now it should not be in for being a reward of 100 or more days of logging in. At this point the once beloved weapon is nearly MR fodder. It shouldn't be a weapon that falls into the ever expanding category of MR fodder.

[Biotic_Prototype_6]

They quite literally killed a gameplay and several loadouts (Like Mag Magnetize Combo, Arcane Chargers, etc...)  with this change.

This weapon is not and has never been used as a meele weapon, it was an option for frames and loadouts that simply can't/does not use a meele weapon.

Think about Mesa, or Mag, or Zephyr even. Do you picture them using a meele weapon?

Zenistar has never been broken specially after the disc impact has been erased, now is just another Azima-like weapon. Please listen to your player base and revert it prior to this update.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Biotic_Prototype_6

[LazyBlissIV]

That base 10sec timer is honestly pretty insulting, It might as well be 0, duration at base.

[GrimSinner]

Does DE read this stuff, or should it be moved to the Melee feedback thread?

[SayikVindal]

13 minutes ago, GrimSinner said:

Does DE read this stuff, or should it be moved to the Melee feedback thread?

I don't know. I haven't seen any mention of this issue, one way or another from the Devs...so it is either not worth thier time, WAI and they want to avoid the drama or they simply have no idea this is a problem.