Do you agree if warframe abilities require line of sight? (and another thing))

[ILOHARTA]

31 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

This is a horde shooter, not a "fictional power fantasy" shooter.

You can have your power fantasy without trivializing the game for yourself and your teammates.

let's not enter a dictionary pit fight and keep the focus on the core game mechanics: the player is supposed to be the very embodiment of "overpowered", and I must say this game -more than others- does an excellent job at that. Why somebody would want to remove the core mechanic from the game, is beyond my comprehension: aren't our modern weapons always more and more powerful as the time pass? Is being weak the only thing you guys can think of to theorize about complexity? Meh, disappointing.

[Pizzarugi]

12 minutes ago, ILOHARTA said:

let's not enter a dictionary pit fight and keep the focus on the core game mechanics: the player is supposed to be the very embodiment of "overpowered", and I must say this game -more than others- does an excellent job at that. Why somebody would want to remove the core mechanic from the game, is beyond my comprehension: aren't our modern weapons always more and more powerful as the time pass? Is being weak the only thing you guys can think of to theorize about complexity? Meh, disappointing.

The point of the game isn't to be overpowered, that's a belief you came up with simply because of how imbalanced this game is. DE never said the intention of the game was to make you feel like a god that you can make rooms of enemies fold over by sneezing. 😛

The core mechanic is a horde shooter, and it can't really be one if all it takes is one button press to make them all vanish. You're supposed to be overwhelmed. Your weapons and abilities can be super strong, but it doesn't need to be so strong that it takes away the only challenge this game has which is throwing enemies at you constantly.

And what do you suggest on how to make this game more challenging or complex that doesn't equate to "make the AI smart, but don't do anything about abilities and weapons that ignore their intelligence"? Because right now, DE keeps adding enemies that take away your power or mitigate it heavily (comba/scrambus, nullifiers, energy drain eximus, nox, etc).

[ILOHARTA]

5 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

The point of the game isn't to be overpowered, that's a belief you came up with simply because of how imbalanced this game is. DE never said the intention of the game was to make you feel like a god that you can make rooms of enemies fold over by sneezing. 😛
 

wait a minute: you didn't notice players are overpowered and need a 300 pages manual to explain that to you?
"Belief" is something useful to indecisive people, but once you have empirical proof you may very well accept that as "fact". So yup, a core mechanic of the game is to be overpowered.

The core mechanic is a horde shooter, and it can't really be one if all it takes is one button press to make them all vanish. You're supposed to be overwhelmed.

it doesn't even happen during infestation survival missions, so how did you came up with this fantasy?
You may benefit from taking a look to this very old video and listen from someone more informed than both of us what to expect.

 

Your weapons and abilities can be super strong, but it doesn't need to be so strong that it takes away the only challenge this game has which is throwing enemies at you constantly.

take out your mods, equip Skana and MK1-Braton and do Sorties that way. Who's preventing you from doing so?

And what do you suggest on how to make this game more challenging or complex that doesn't equate to "make the AI smart, but don't do anything about abilities and weapons that ignore their intelligence"? Because right now, DE keeps adding enemies that take away your power or mitigate it heavily (comba/scrambus, nullifiers, energy drain eximus, nox, etc).

on this we both agree: enemies should try to counter players with something better than "preventing us from using from using powers" because that's both not creative and a bit meh.
If a dedicated thread for constructive advices will ever be created, I'll try to contribute (like I did with the QoL improvements' one)

[Pizzarugi]

4 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

So yup, a core mechanic of the game is to be overpowered.

Do you have empirical proof that this game is designed to be a power fantasy and not just poorly balanced? Keep in mind if it was, they wouldn't have nerfed or reworked Ember, wouldn't have nerfed Mirage Spamulor, wouldn't have nerfed spin2win Atterax builds twice starting with LoS and then Melee 3.0 rework, wouldn't have nerfed Chroma's Vex Armor, etc. From what I've been told, one of the devs have even said they'll be looking at Saryn again soon, and I doubt it's going to involve buffs.

4 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

it doesn't even happen during infestation survival missions, so how did you came up with this fantasy?

Fun fact: Enemy spawns were a lot higher in the past, meaning the Infestation could swarm you in survival missions. For one reason or another, they nerfed that and now if you don't play with other people, you need to do fissures or run Nekros to sustain life support solo.

4 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

You may benefit from taking a look to this very old video and listen from someone more informed than both of us what to expect.

This video was released just over 7 years ago. Is any of this still relevant, or even set in stone? In fact, around the time I started playing this game in 2013, it felt more like a tactical shooter compared to what it is now.

4 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

take out your mods, equip Skana and MK1-Braton and do Sorties that way. Who's preventing you from doing so?

Seeing as Mogamu talked about this in a recent video and explained it better than I could, I'll repeat what he said: Why would I go through all of that time and effort grinding for mods and weapons and then be told not to use them?

It's not my responsibility to be challenged by the game. It's the developers'. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have made Kuva Liches and instead expect players to gimp themselves. No other game that I know of foists that on the player. Even Path of Exile, the ARPG that's all about deleting entire screens of mobs in the blink of an eye, nerfs builds that are vastly outperforming the rest (granted they'd rather shift the meta instead of actually balancing the game).

Edited November 9, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[No1NParticular31]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Seeing as Mogamu talked about this in a recent video and explained it better than I could, I'll repeat what he said: Why would I go through all of that time and effort grinding for mods and weapons and then be told not to use them?

If you think your frame is too powerful, why build it that way? Why try to get everything nerfed to meet YOUR desire of how powerful a Frame should be? You sound like one of those vegans that think meat should be banned for everyone. It's not our fault that you (or the "ban meat" vegans) don't have the self discipline to do what you want without dragging everyone else down with you.

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

If you think your frame is too powerful, why build it that way? Why try to get everything nerfed to meet YOUR desire of how powerful a Frame should be? You sound like one of those vegans that think meat should be banned for everyone. It's not our fault that you (or the "ban meat" vegans) don't have the self discipline to do what you want without dragging everyone else down with you.

I have no idea how "it's not my responsibility to make the game challenging, but the developers'." is equivalent to "you shouldn't eat meat, because it comes from factory farm animals who are treated badly before they get butchered.", but okay.

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

It's not my responsibility to be challenged by the game. It's the developers'. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have made Kuva Liches and instead expect players to gimp themselves. No other game that I know of foists that on the player. Even Path of Exile, the ARPG that's all about deleting entire screens of mobs in the blink of an eye, nerfs builds that are vastly outperforming the rest (granted they'd rather shift the meta instead of actually balancing the game).

 

[No1NParticular31]

3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I have no idea how "it's not my responsibility to make the game challenging, but the developers'." is equivalent to "you shouldn't eat meat, because it comes from factory farm animals who are treated badly before they get butchered.", but okay.

 

You are arguing for nerfs to frames you think are too powerful, and then in the part I quoted you seem to be saying that if you have the mods you are going to use them even if it makes your frame more powerful than you think it should be, which is just dumb. I like a little challenge too, so guess how many Rivens I am using. Zero. I will use a Riven for my Rubico Prime (if I can ever get a Rubico Prime Riven) but only for Eidolons. I have the self control to not over mod my stuff. I am sorry you lack that ability but that isn't my problem.

[Pizzarugi]

26 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

You are arguing for nerfs to frames you think are too powerful

They are too powerful. No other frame is capable of nuking entire rooms quite like Saryn, Volt, Equinox and Mesa. And when you're teamed up with players who use them, you've got next to nothing to do besides walk and vacuum up resources. The average mission level you'll be engaging in is 1-60(-100 if you hunt Liches). Missions like Kuva Floods and Sorties are time gated between 1 to 24 hours. This means the average mission you'll be running can be easily trivialized by having one frame in the team press a single button to wipe out all enemies. No other frame trivializes the game like they can. Not Limbo who protects excavators with his Cataclysm, not Loki casting Radial Disarm, not Hildryn running low shields to abuse her passive.

26 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

and then in the part I quoted you seem to be saying that if you have the mods you are going to use them even if it makes your frame more powerful than you think it should be, which is just dumb.

That's correct, I am going to use them. Why would I waste my time grinding to get those mods plus the endo and credits needed to rank them up, then never use them because you think it's my responsibility to make the game challenging and not the people who develop it? Again, no other game expects this from players. Whenever something is OP, it gets nerfed. DE has done it several times in the past as well.

26 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

I like a little challenge too, so guess how many Rivens I am using. Zero. I will use a Riven for my Rubico Prime (if I can ever get a Rubico Prime Riven) but only for Eidolons.

Weapons and rivens are OP, but they're still leagues behind press-4-to-win frames in regards to how fast they can destroy entire rooms. You can 1shot as many enemies as you like with your Rubico Prime, but you nor your weapon will be able to wipe the room in one click like Saryn can with her Spores or Volt with his Discharge.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[No1NParticular31]

23 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

They are too powerful. No other frame is capable of nuking entire rooms quite like [Inserts LIST].

ROFLMAO. Anyway who cares if some frames can kill faster than others? It's not a big deal.
 

23 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

And when you're teamed up with players who use them, you've got next to nothing to do besides walk and vacuum up resources. The average mission level you'll be engaging in is 1-60(-100 if you hunt Liches). Missions like Kuva Floods and Sorties are time gated between 1 to 24 hours. This means the average mission you'll be running can be easily trivialized by having one frame in the team press a single button to wipe out all enemies.

So? You do realize that if you don't like the team you get, you can abort and get a new one right? I do it all the time if I get in a group with a bad Limbo or now with a Vauban that is using Vortex to get mobs stuck in geometry. You could do this with frames you don't like too. That is the nature of PUG's. As alternatives you could put together your "dream team" in the recruiting channel, play with clan mates, do it solo for even more challenge, or just go play something else that is the correct level of challenge for you.
 

23 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

That's correct, I am going to use them. Why would I waste my time grinding to get those mods plus the endo and credits needed to rank them up, then never use them because you think it's my responsibility to make the game challenging and not the people who develop it?

That is what I mean about no self control. Just do yourself a favor and stay away from buffets. I am not sure you could refrain from eating everything. I mean it's there and you paid for it right, so you will just have to eat it all. Then you'll want the restaurant to nerf the buffet for everyone so you don't get too fat.
 

23 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Weapons and rivens are OP, but they're still leagues behind press-4-to-win frames in regards to how fast they can destroy entire rooms. You can 1shot as many enemies as you like with your Rubico Prime, but you nor your weapon will be able to wipe the room in one click like Saryn can with her Spores or Volt with his Discharge.

So what's next? Maybe you'll want to nerf invis frames because they trivialize content by becoming un-hittable and they can zip through with a powerful Zaw or polearm and obliterate everything in their path without a care in the world. Maybe you'll want to nerf speed frames after that, because they can basically do the same thing only way faster. Speaking of which, how is it fair that Mirage can have 4 copies of herself amplifying damage through the roof? How is it fair that Limbo can enter a rift plane and move through the whole map untouched? My point is that nearly every frame has something that could be considered by someone as "unfair". You are only seeing things from YOUR perspective. DE has done a great job IMHO at making sure there is something for everyone with a myriad of frames, each with special abilities that set them apart from the rest. Sure there are a few frames that I personally consider garbage frames but I would rather see those frames reworked and made better instead of taking the shine off the rest.

The ONLY way to achieve perfect balance is if they got rid of every single frame except one and everyone had to use the same frame. How many players would still be here to play it though?

Edited November 9, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[Pizzarugi]

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

ROFLMAO. Anyway who cares if some frames can kill faster than others? It's not a big deal.

It is if you want to do more than spend the entire mission hoovering up resources and walking to extraction.

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

So? You do realize that if you don't like the team you get, you can abort and get a new one right? I do it all the time if I get in a group with a bad Limbo or now with a Vauban that is using Vortex to get mobs stuck in geometry. You could do this with frames you don't like too. That is the nature of PUG's.

I've already tried this back when Plains of Eidolon was new. When the majority of players are running press-4-to-win frames, it makes the effort far more tiring than its worth.

Sure would be nice if DE let us have a matchmaking blacklist for weapons and frames, so you can team up with people who are running anything on it. Would definitely clear that problem right up.

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

As alternatives you could put together your "dream team" in the recruiting channel

Yeah, that sounds perfectly viable, asking people to run random missions nobody actually cares for that aren't radshares, Grendel missions, or Eidolons. This is an exercise in futility far worse than trying to leave and find new pub groups that doesn't have a nuke frame in it.

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

do it solo for even more challenge

Solo missions have stopped being challenging for years. Enemy spawns in solo are hot garbage, have been since DE nerfed their spawn count ages ago, so much so that you can't even sustain life support in survival unless you run Nekros/Pilfering Swarm Hydroid or fissures.

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

or just go play something else that is the correct level of challenge for you.

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

The average mission level you'll be engaging in is 1-60(-100 if you hunt Liches). Missions like Kuva Floods and Sorties are time gated between 1 to 24 hours. This means the average mission you'll be running can be easily trivialized by having one frame in the team press a single button to wipe out all enemies.

Even in Lich controlled missions, I still see these broken frames nuking enemies. There is no "correct level of challenge" that isn't officially recognized by DE. Level 100 is officially the highest this game goes, and the only time they acknowledge endurance runs is 1 hour in the Index for a meme decoration.

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

That is what I mean about no self control. Just do yourself a favor and stay away from buffets. I am not sure you could refrain from eating everything. I mean it's there and you paid for it right, so you will just have to eat it all.

And now you're trying to equate game balance with real-life. These two scenarios are not equivalent, and you're just doing it to throw insults at me. How much lower are you willing to go just to try and come out like you're winning this argument?

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

So what's next? Maybe you'll want to nerf invis frames because they trivialize content by becoming un-hittable and they can zip through with a powerful Zaw or polearm and obliterate everything in their path without a care in the world. Maybe you'll want to nerf speed frames after that, because they can basically do the same thing only way faster. Speaking of which, how is it fair that Mirage can have 4 copies of herself amplifying damage through the roof? How is it fair that Limbo can enter a rift plane and move through the whole map untouched?

Now you're strawmanning.

Let me know when invis frames, immortal tanks, speed demons, and nerfed Mirage mirrors (spamulor nerf) can clear entire rooms full of enemies, then you'll have a point.

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

My point is that nearly every frame has something that could be considered by someone as "unfair". You are only seeing things from YOUR perspective.

There's a huge difference between the frames you tried to strawman me with, and nuke frames. Immortal frames will never be able to trivialize the game for teams they match up with. Speed running frames like Gauss, Zephyr, and Wormhole spamming Nova only rush the game for themselves which is pointless since friendship doors exist. Invisibility frames trivialize the game for themselves and not the rest of the team.

You know what nuke frames do? Trivialize the game not only for themselves, but the players they team up with. Why play a horde shooter and kill enemies when you can just clean up after someone's mess and follow them to extraction? Roomba Simulator, absolutely riveting gameplay!

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

DE has done a great job IMHO at making sure there is something for everyone with a myriad of frames, each with special abilities that set them apart from the rest.

Yes, that's correct. However, even though there's a wide variety of frames to suit your playstyle, they all rotate around a core feature of the game which is to fight hordes of enemies. Nuke frames ignore that dynamic by deleting enemies as quickly as they spawn. What's the point of tanking if there's nothing alive to shoot you? What's the point of being a healing support if teammates never get hurt because everything else is dead? What's the point of utilizing stealth if everything is dead? There's nothing to detect you if there's nothing to detect you.

45 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Sure there are a few frames that I personally consider garbage frames but I would rather see those frames reworked and made better instead of taking the shine off the rest.

And how would you propose this happens without it equating to making all frames into nukes, or still rendering their existence pointless when all you need is to nuke the room and move on?

All of this sounds like a great deal more effort than just slapping on LoS on the problem frames so they can't just kill everyone with 1-2 pressed of a button like the OP suggested.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[No1NParticular31]

7 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

{a bunch of stuff}

I guess it is true: You can't use logic and reasoning to talk someone out of a position they didn't use logic and reasoning to arrive at.

Goodnight.

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, No1NParticular31 said:

I guess it is true: You can't use logic and reasoning to talk someone out of a position they didn't use logic and reasoning to arrive at.

Goodnight.

The only "logic and reasoning" I saw you use were strawman arguments along with personal insults.

But go ahead and use that as an excuse to duck out.

[Teridax68]

I don't really agree: while I will be the first to say our abilities are out of control and frequently uninteractive, I think pinning it all down to ignoring LoS is, if you'll pardon the pun, a tad short-sighted: on one hand, some abilities are specifically designed to ignore LoS and are fine, like Banshee's Sonar, but on the other, many abilities would still be uninteractive even if they were restricted to LoS. Mesa's Peacemaker and Ember's new Inferno are prime examples of this, as they're both LoS-based abilities, yet are also spammy nukes that eliminate interaction with enemies just as much as any LoS-indifferent ability.

Thus, if we want abilities to be healthy, we need to make them interactive, which is unfortunately a much more abstract and wide-ranging term than simply restricting abilities to LoS, but also less likely to lead to overly restrictive changes. To give examples, I think crowd control should be freely usable, whether or not it's based on LoS, and could even be made to last indefinitely on most enemies, but should be designed in such a way that it cannot be applied to everyone at once: if casting a CC ability cleansed previously affected enemies of that same ability, for example, you'd only be able to affect a limited group at once, which would prevent frames being able to lock down the whole map. Damage, on the other hand, needs to have some sort of mechanic in-between us pressing the button and the enemy dying, whether it's the damage being based on a projectile, or it requiring some condition for maximum effectiveness, or simply it requiring us to aim directly at the enemy, instead of being able to kill everyone in some general direction. Effectively, we need to start thinking about the enemies we're killing, which doesn't necessarily means restricting everything to LoS, but does mean preventing us from simply clearing a room at the press of a button.

As for bullet jumping, I can agree that it's not great for it to override our regular movement, though I very much appreciate how it lets us traverse vertically. Thus, rather than nerf it, I'd rather merge bullet jumping with our double jump, so that holding the jump button on a double jump lets us perform a bullet jump for maximum vertical traversal. Bullet-jumping would not longer be its own dedicated move, and with this we should also have either our base running speed or our sprint speed dramatically increased, so that we don't feel hobbled by the transition.

[ILOHARTA]

12 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Do you have empirical proof that this game is designed to be a power fantasy and not just poorly balanced?

assuming that you are asking a real question and not merely attempting to troll, I would humbly point out at the video trailer 'recently' released, which incarnates perfectly the view of DE on what players should expect from the game: a glorified display of immense power. And you know what? it makes perfect sense. Why? easy: the galaxy is full of baddies and in complete disarray and you, the player, are the solution. 

Keep in mind if it was, they wouldn't have nerfed or reworked

this is complete nonsense, you are mistaking game mechanics with business model, it's a company and not a group of students, therefore they need to tweak their service (the software, the game) based on the analysis of big data and if the data shows something is a potential threat to their profit it's absolutely normal to take action.

Is any of this still relevant, or even set in stone?

not set in stone, but still relevant judging from the consequent content over the year pivoting around the same core concept

Why would I go through all of that time and effort grinding for mods and weapons and then be told not to use them?

because you are the one who wants to diverge from what the product is designed to offer, and therefore it's entirely upon you to either A) correct you attitude and benefit from the product "as is" or B) circumvent the standing system within the limits provided by itself and adapt it to your own 'vision'.

It's not my responsibility to be challenged by the game. It's the developers'.

this makes even less sense than what you said above: it's like you ordering a beef in a restaurant and saying "it's cook's responsibility to turn this beef into a pizza", just because you changed your mind after the initial order. You downloaded Warframe, Warframe is conceived to function in a certain way, you have a in incredibly easy binary option that's A) play it as it is or B) uninstall and play something else.
Of course DE benefits from listening to the playerbase, because if they want to continue making money, it's a good idea to give the players what they want to play, but it must happen within reasonable boundaries (keep in mind, again, it's a big company, and investors may not be happy to have put money into something that then ends up being completely different: I mean, if I give you money to craft an airplane and you craft a boat... that may raise some eyebrows).

If it wasn't, they wouldn't have made Kuva Liches and instead expect players to gimp themselves. No other game that I know of foists that on the player. Even Path of Exile, the ARPG that's all about deleting entire screens of mobs in the blink of an eye, nerfs builds that are vastly outperforming the rest (granted they'd rather shift the meta instead of actually balancing the game).

I have played games before the Internet was created, and nerfs -or balance patches, if you prefer- have always existed. They are necessary, as it is a strict control over the market...
When it impacts my own playstyle, I don't like it of course, but I understand it's really necessary.

[844448]

On 2019-11-08 at 12:40 AM, ShichiseitenYasha said:

Destiny 2, for example, has better enemy AI and doesn't require every ability to be LoS for no reason. They don't stand and slowly walk towards you as they shoot, nor do they just sit there while being shot. They don't do moderate jogs away to get to cover, they actually have good animations and do real tactical dodges. Fallen, for example, actually lower their head to the floor and scuttle away at a quick pace to make it far more difficult to headshot them. 

Here's a question, can you spam all abilities as you wish or is there an ability that can wipe an area no matter if enemies are behind cover or not with no cooldown at all?

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

On 2019-11-07 at 12:37 PM, Aldain said:

Would you prefer more people spamming "PUNISH LICH AVOIDERS" threads?

844448's topics are like grand philosophy compared to those.

Agreed

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

On 2019-11-09 at 12:38 AM, No1NParticular31 said:

The ONLY way to achieve perfect balance is if they got rid of every single frame except one and everyone had to use the same frame. How many players would still be here to play it though?

Not true at all. The game can be balanced without taking away alot. But due to the amount of power we have major nerfs (Not saying Los on all powers is a great idea)  but you all don't want that. To be frank not to many people do.

[Chicken-Biryani]

On 2019-11-07 at 10:58 PM, HugintheCrow said:

Do you agree if 844448 stopped spamming pointless drama-bait threads?

100% agree! He sure likes to keep tabs on all the negative criticism (or not criticism etc). When you pop in forums, within 5 minutes you are guaranteed to run into him reminding about people who wanted "endgame" "sustainable content" "balance" "difficulty" etc etc. 

[MysticDragonMage]

nuking has made random co-op rather boring to say the least.

there is hardly any more good moments where a player meets a random person or group to have unpredictable, unique, and satisfying experiences.

however, even as i say this, somehow introducing LoS sounds too simple. while nuking will always be a problem in my eyes, introducing LoS just does not seem like the best solution IMO.

why not just have enemies who are in cover (as in the stance and animation) resist warframe damaging AoE abilities to an extent? enemies are ALWAYS taking cover. they have equipment that makes them cover. update their AI to take the nearest cover when they see a warframe cast its nuke.

 

[844448]

53 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said:

100% agree! He sure likes to keep tabs on all the negative criticism (or not criticism etc). When you pop in forums, within 5 minutes you are guaranteed to run into him reminding about people who wanted "endgame" "sustainable content" "balance" "difficulty" etc etc. 

 

On 2019-10-03 at 1:18 PM, --C--Nehra said:

Anything to make me consider playing for more than 5 mins at a time is welcome. To be truthful I would like some challenge along the lines of a new game doing rounds in the WF community. 

You can be considered as one of them

[Chicken-Biryani]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

 

You can be considered as one of them

Wow! I feel sorry for you as well as amazement, to keep something I said in your mind for so long. I salute you! Seriously, I would never take trouble to remember old comments by you. 

[844448]

51 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said:

Wow! I feel sorry for you as well as amazement, to keep something I said in your mind for so long. I salute you! Seriously, I would never take trouble to remember old comments by you. 

Not everyone has memory that short

[Raqiya]

Nuking is 100% a problem and Los may help lessen the problem but it won't make it go away.

Look at the current Ember and Mesa. Despite both having their room clears use Los it doesn't hamper their ability to nuke a room in the slightest if used correctly. DE would have to redesign the frames in a way which at the very least prevents them from being spammed such as some form of ramp up meter or internal cool down much like the baruuk's restraint mechanic, for example.

Having Mesa Peacemakers expend a special ammo resource which can only be obtained by using her other abilities. 

Or

Giving equinox 2 meters, Day & Night both being tied to each of her respective forms. Using a ability in day fills up the night and vice versa. Only when their corrosponding meter is filled will they be able to use their 4. 

Other than nerfing them to the ground I see no other way. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Raqiya

[Tyreaus]

44 minutes ago, Raqiya said:

DE would have to redesign the frames in a way which at the very least prevents them from being spammed

They also need to look at each nuke frame's kit to figure out what kind of problem each nuke ability has, because it isn't always just vanilla spammability. Saryn's spores don't really have a recast problem, as far as I can see, as much as they just spread very, very, very well, especially with Miasma. I see her clearing rooms but the amount of times she has to cast to clear rooms is quite low, all things considered. Compared to Ember, a meter doesn't seem like it'd make as much of a difference on Saryn. _{But my observations might be inaccurate, too.}

Equinox, on the other hand, already effectively has a meter in her 4 with the kills it needs to charge. It's just that the meter maxes out very easily. That could still be leveraged, e.g. by ramping up  the percentage of enemy health and shields stored for every kill she makes, from 1% to 50%, so there's more of a ramp-up in her meter that requires her to contribute directly.

One important consideration is that we wouldn't want to have the Gauss problem of "spam ability just to get charge". I don't think many people liked that. There should be some kind of enemy interaction in there, like how Nidus does it.

[seprent]

This is basically the reading equivalent of saturday morning cartoons 

well atleast 844448 is consistent with bringing some people entertainment