Toxic lich hunter bullies are spreading "badwill", ban them.

[IIDMOII]

No. 

You are directing your frustration at the wrong people.

The content's design failures are to blame here. 

Using the same logic in the op, avoiding your lich in a public game is just as bad.

Instead of trying to change behavior of strangers on the internet, just play solo. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by IIDMOII

[Graavarg]

4 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

We can move on now.

We are moving on. Regardless of where you stand in this, discussing it is moving it forward.

Starting Monday, expect DE to join up. Not in chat, but with creating a solution. Then all can hopefully move on and forget this.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Graavarg

[Graavarg]

1 minute ago, IIDMOII said:

You are directing your frustration at the wrong people.

The content's design failures are to blame here. 

I totally agree that all this is due to the design. And all grief could be avoided with a few small changes. Hopefully things will change asap.

But the current design is what we have, and it is NOT an excuse to behave badly or to try and force your will on other players by harassing and bullying them. That is ALWAYS wrong, regardless of design.

[SordidDreams]

1 minute ago, Graavarg said:

We are moving on. Regardless of where you stand in this, discussing it is moving it forward.

Starting Monday, expect DE to join up. Not in chat, but with creating a solution. The all can hopefully move on.

Yeah, he's just doing the same thing on the forums as in the game, demanding that you STFU and do what he wants.

As for DE fixing this mess, I'm not holding my breath. They've had two weeks to implement a simple and elegant solution that would put a stop to this (i.e. downed liches that are not stabbed despawn without ranking up) and they've done nothing. Megan said in an interview with Brozime that the lich system has been very well received and all it needs is minor tweaks. DE are apparently happy with this situation.

[Raqiya]

48 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

It's quite easy isn't it, a mission with one to three other RANDOM players, all with their own goals, playstyle and ideas.

And they are just as allowed to join a mission with RANDOM players as any lich farmer is.

By that logic do you think its okay to join a PoE Bounty and just start mining or fishing instead of helping your team because its there play style and how they want to play?

EDIT :

Or how about joining a sortie and spending the whole time just scanning things with your codex scanner. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Raqiya

[Graavarg]

6 minutes ago, IIDMOII said:

Using the same logic in the op, avoiding your lich in a public game is just as bad.

No, because currently it is completely and 100% according to design AND it can even make perfect sense for the player involved (leaving your lich alone).

All players should be allowed to play the game according to how it is designed (meant) and pursuing their own goals in their own way, without being harassed by other players.

How anyone can think and argue that that kind of bullying is ok is completely beyond me. Think about what it would be called IRL, forcing other people to do your bidding by harassing and bullying them. What scary is thinking that those supporting this behaviour in Warframe also would support it IRL. 

[ixidron92]

hace 32 minutos, Graavarg dijo:

No it is NOT against the objective of the mission, since the objective is not to kill the lich. Just farming murmurs and not leveling up your lich is perfectly, totally ok. And no grounds for abuse or pressure whatsoever.

The three players that want to cooperate can form their own, specific private squad and cooperate as much as they like, in an agreed manner.

And btw, it is deeply ironic that "cooperation" is being used as an argument to force other players to play a certain way, against their wishes. And in a way that is detrimental to their game and gaming experience, just so psychotic lich hunters won't lose a few minutes. 

The objective of the mission is both to kill the lich and to farm murmurs. Sure, BOTH ARE OPTIONAL! 

What would you say if someone went ahead and decided they don't want to farm murmurs and just do the sabotage mission? Just blow up the core and extract. You say the mission is about murmurs, but it turns out, that in reality it's not, It's not the objective, it's not a requirement to finish the mission, but hey 4 players are cooperating to hunt down thralls aren't they? and you accept that as the right thing to do, don't you? But for some reason you don't accept players should cooperate to hunt down liches as they hunt down thralls.

So, what if someone decided they don't want to hunt thralls? What if they decided they want to go and simply finish the mission because they have to finish 3 capture missions for their nightwave and they don't care about your murmurs? Wouldn't you be pissed off? Or, by your logic, you should accept that situation; accept that he has the right to screw you over and do whatever he pleases.

I am literally gonna use your argument against you because it literally applies to the other 3 people you're screwing over: "And btw, it is deeply ironic that "cooperation" is being used as an argument to force other players to play a certain way, against their wishes. And in a way that is detrimental to their game and gaming experience." This is worse, because the other 3 players cannot force you to play a certain way, but you can force the other 3 players to play the way you want.

[iArucard]

Just now, Graavarg said:

I can live with idiots spewing abuse, doesn't bother me personally as I consider egoistical bullies the lowest of the low. Won't affect my gameplay either.

What I really don't like are lich farmers bullying lower MR to kill their lich only so the lich farmer will save a few minutes, without any care whatsoever how this affects the bullied player or if that kind of aggressive bullying is in any way even close to ok. Anyone who is currently doing lichs have seen this obnoxious behaviour time and time again. And I still think all bullies should be banned, in a perfect world DE would go through the chat stream retroactively and put these hooligans out of the game for a while.

And regarding clarity, it is already quite clear which type of player you are, by your own words.

 

Even if a low mr X spawn their lich and and he deal with it, I will be the most willing to help them deal with their lich , this whole thing is so straight forward , join lich node , X thrall for murmur , lich spawn , X your lich , extract , full stop end of mission and end of story

BUT instead you are stirring up and encourage people not to X their lich in public game and halting other people lich from spawning until people start to get really piss off with you.

You want your own play style ? sure then make your own private game and do whatever you want instead of halting other people lich and progress , you are very selfish seriously.

Stop using victim card by saying people wanna bully you this and that

A person in the right mind will not bully you or spewing abuse , more like you are the one abusing them by using your so call play style and halt their progress and time.

 

 

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

4 players are cooperating to hunt down thralls aren't they? and you accept that as the right thing to do, don't you? But for some reason you don't accept players should cooperate to hunt down liches as they hunt down thralls.

Maybe that's precisely because they want to hunt thralls, not liches. Maybe those two should be separated out, with the lich sitting on his own boss node until you're ready to confront him.

3 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

So, what if someone decided they don't want to hunt thralls? What if they decided they want to go and simply finish the mission because they have to finish 3 capture missions for their nightwave and they don't care about your murmurs?

In that case they're welcome to stand at extraction and wait for the rest of the team to finish their thrall hunting, I guess.

4 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

I am literally gonna use your argument against you because it literally applies to the other 3 people you're screwing over: "And btw, it is deeply ironic that "cooperation" is being used as an argument to force other players to play a certain way, against their wishes. And in a way that is detrimental to their game and gaming experience." This is worse, because the other 3 players cannot force you to play a certain way, but you can force the other 3 players to play the way you want.

Except that doesn't work at all, because the one player not stabbing a lich is not forcing the other players to do anything. He's leaving them alone to do what they want and simply expecting the same treatment from them.

[Graavarg]

5 minutes ago, Raqiya said:

By that logic do you think its okay to join a PoE Bounty and just start mining or fishing instead of helping your team because its there play style and how they want to play?

No, it really goes like this: by what logic is stabbing your lich mandatory, when DE has clearly indicated that it is not, it is not in the mission description and you can totally 100% finish the mission successfully without attacking your lich (hint: it isn't mandatory).

It can't be that the simple logic is that lich farmers want to save a few minutes of mission time without any regard for how that affects another player (effects that are permanent and affect all the following lich-related missions) in order to more quickly complete their PERSONAL objective? Because if that is the case, it is quite a twisted logic...

Regarding the comparison to a PoE Bounty:

• the goal of the PoE bounty is completing it (the goal of a lich mission is not killing your lich)
• you can't complete the bounty without completing the submissions (you can 100% successfully complete a lich mission without killing your lich)
• not helping with THE MISSION OBJECTIVE is leeching in either case (but the mission objective in the lich mission is NOT killing your lich, that is just the lich farmer's personal objective)
• not killing your lich is NOT leeching (and not "obstructing" either), as long as you help with the ACTUAL MISSION OBJECTIVES

If there really was an "attack your lich"-mission and players would join up and not do it, jeopardising the mission success, I have no problem calling them out as "obstructors" or "leechers". However, there is currently no such missions, and trying to force other players to fulfil YOUR OWN PERSONAL objectives by bullying and harassing them is just totally wrong.

[Test-995]

 

9 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

3 players cannot force you to play a certain way, but you can force the other 3 players to play the way you want.

It's stupidly funny but just this, and you know what's even worse? it's not something you will do just for the sake of it, but rather something that happens when you don't care about others.

So, basically "YOU HAVE TO KILL THE LICH OR ELSE OTHER 3 PLAYERS WILL SUFFER"

Edited November 17, 2019 by Test-995

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, SordidDreams dijo:

Maybe that's precisely because they want to hunt thralls, not liches. Maybe those two should be separated out, with the lich sitting on his own boss node until you're ready to confront him.

In that case they're welcome to stand at extraction and wait for the rest of the team to finish their thrall hunting, I guess.

Except that doesn't work at all, because the one player not stabbing a lich is not forcing the other players to do anything. He's leaving them alone to do what they want and simply expecting the same treatment from them.

Their own lich node comes with empyrean, but until that arrives we're stuck this way.

So that's exactly what happens when the guy who doesn't want to kill the lich wants to extract and the other 3 teammates decide not to just to coerce him. That is the very same situation the OP is complaining about. Don't you see the irony?

Oh but he is forcing them to play the way he wants. He doesn't want to kill liches and thus he's forcing the other 3 players to the same path. Meanwhile if the other 3 players want to kill liches they can't force the lone guy to do so. In this case, 1 player can force other 3 to do his bidding, but not the other way around.

[Ryim_Drykeon]

Aaaaand this is why DE should have made the Lich an Opt-In/Opt-Out option.

If they had, all this BS would never be. "I don't feel like doing my Lich. *Turns OFF option*" or "I feel like doing my Lich in PUB. *Turns ON option and the 'Lich Active' icon is displayed on their game portrait for other players to see. Like seeing their MR rank or which frame/aura/weapns they are bringing PRIOR to starting the mission. Like trading, if someone changes their Lich Status, then the Mission Accepts are reset and players need to Accept again. Could be used as minor 'trolling', but people would just leave that squad and continue on if a moron did that.

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, Test-995 dijo:

 

It's stupidly funny but just this, and you know what's even worse? it's not something you will do just for the sake of it, but rather something that happens when you don't care about others.

So, basically "YOU HAVE TO KILL THE LICH OR ELSE OTHER 3 PLAYER WILL SUFFER"

Don't you see the freaking problem? The OP is complaining other people are detrimental to his game experience while at the same time he's being detrimental to other 3 people's game experience. Who the hell said suffer? Hyperbole much? Like I said, forcefully screwing over 3 players and making them lose their time for your benefit is worse than having 3 players whining at you by a long shot.

[SordidDreams]

5 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Their own lich node comes with empyrean, but until that arrives we're stuck this way.

So that's exactly what happens when the guy who doesn't want to kill the lich wants to extract and the other 3 teammates decide not to just to coerce him. That is the very same situation the OP is complaining about. Don't you see the irony?

Oh but he is forcing them to play the way he wants. He doesn't want to kill liches and thus he's forcing the other 3 players to the same path. Meanwhile if the other 3 players want to kill liches they can't force the lone guy to do so. In this case, 1 player can force other 3 to do his bidding, but not the other way around.

Eh? I've heard nothing about that, where does that info come from?

No, because it's not. The three others are not forcing him to run around and stab thralls, they're leaving him to do what he wants.

Okay, let's try an analogy. Do you drive? I hope so. You know how in some situations on some intersections you can turn right but you can't go straight until the light turns green? So if there's a guy who wants to go straight at the front, the guys behind him who want to turn right are stuck and have to wait. You're that guy at the back, demanding that the guy in front turn right and make a detour, even though that's not where he wants to go, because you're impatient and want to go right now.

Edited November 17, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Raqiya]

10 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Except that doesn't work at all, because the one player not stabbing a lich is not forcing the other players to do anything. He's leaving them alone to do what they want and simply expecting the same treatment from them.

Not stabbing your lich denies them their Lich's you're forcing 3 other players to fit your wants/needs. How can you not see this?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Raqiya

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Raqiya said:

Not stabbing your lich denies them their Lich's you're forcing 3 other players to fit your wants/needs. How can you not see this. 

I do see that. My argument is and always has been that maybe being denied a lich spawn (because it's not even guaranteed to happen) is a trivial amount of harm, whereas having to stab your lich and make your future lich missions much harder can be a severe burden. The way the system is set up, someone has to bite the bullet. It seems like common sense that it should be those people to whom it's no big deal rather than those to whom it's serious setback.

[Test-995]

Just now, ixidron92 said:

Don't you see the freaking problem? The OP is complaining other people are detrimental to his game experience while at the same time he's being detrimental to other 3 people's game experience. Who the hell said suffer? Hyperbole much? Like I said, forcefully screwing over 3 players and making them lose their time for your benefit is worse than having 3 players whining at you by a long shot.

Not really, OP is just complaining about someone being aggressive against someone else, people can ask politely, or just report them, choosing violent way is the problem and not the act itself.

It's not really hyperbole, this is just how DE made the system.

 

[ixidron92]

hace 6 minutos, SordidDreams dijo:

Eh? I've heard nothing about that, where does that info come from?

No, because it's not. The three others are not forcing him to run around and stab thralls, they're leaving him to do what he wants.

Okay, let's try an analogy. Do you drive? I hope so. You know how in some situations on some intersections you can turn right but you can't go straight? So if there's a guy who wants to go straight, the guys behind him who want to turn right are stuck and have to wait. You're that guy, demanding that the guy in front turn right and make a detour because you're too impatient and want to go right now.

A devstream. They showed a lich assassination mission. Basically you start in your railjack and board the lich galleon to kill them.

And neither are they forcing you to stab the lich. They are asking you to do so, so you don't screw over their experience. They can't force you, same way as they can't force you to kill the thralls, but ignoring what you're supposed to do is just a $&*^ move.

Funny you mention that, because here there is a freaking regulation that yes, forces you to do exactly that. If you can't go forwards because there's a red light, but you can turn right, you're supposed to turn right. If you block other people from going right because you want to go forwards, that can incur in a sanction.

Edited November 17, 2019 by ixidron92

[Graavarg]

6 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

What would you say if someone went ahead and decided they don't want to farm murmurs and just do the sabotage mission? Just blow up the core and extract. You say the mission is about murmurs, but it turns out, that in reality it's not, It's not the objective, it's not a requirement to finish the mission, but hey 4 players are cooperating to hunt down thralls aren't they? and you accept that as the right thing to do, don't you? But for some reason you don't accept players should cooperate to hunt down liches as they hunt down thralls.

This happens quite often, unfortunately. Mostly with capture missions (in my opinion), the capture target is dropped in 30 sec after which most players start running for extraction (Pavlovian conditioned reflex, maybe). The smart thing would be to chill a bit and max the amount of murmurs. But it would never cross my mind to start bullying or harassing players doing this, as it is totally according to the design/rules and I joined a random's mission of my own free will.

The same applies to liches, I've had all three requiems figured out and a full aggro bar, but a player getting a lich before mine doesn't want to kill it. And not just once either. But the same logic applies, it is totally ok according to the design/rules and I joined a random's mission of my free will. It sucks, since even the murmurs are meaningless at that point, but that is how the game works. Starting harassing and bullying another player for doing something that is both allowed and ok so that I can benefit more doesn't really enter into it. For me, anyway.

And we are just talking about a few minutes, a lich mission rarely goes beyond 5 minutes. If I am in a hurry I can quit. And currently I am just dropping them solo, for this very reason. So I totally get the irritation, but totally not the abuse & harassment or even the idea that other players should conform to my wants. Personally I think that is sick.

Cooperation is not only fine but preferable. "Forced cooperation" (where you bully someone to do something they do not want to do) is something else entirely.

[Olfind]

Joining to a kuva lich hunting mission node and not trying to stab your lich when it's spawn is the same thing like joining a public Tridolon hunt in cetus and then not puting in your shard after the first boss "because I don't want to fight a harder boss".

 

It's stupid.

 

I am not joining a kuva lich mission node for the 300 plastid and 4k credit reward at the end of it. I join it to KILL my lich the OBJECTIVE of the mission node is to KILL your lich the "murmur farming" isn't even needed you can brute force the combination ,the murmur is there to "speed up" the time to find the correct combination ,the hole point for the mission node is to KILL your lich by finding the combination on pure luck or (having the bad luck) getting all the murmurs to find the words but you WILL kill your lich the only thing differs is the amount of time you need for it (and the people ho don't try to stab there lich is prolonging the amount of time needed for them .AND .THER .CURRENT .TEAM .MATES .TOO).

 

Since we don't have any way to switch spawned in liches (at the moment) we are at the mercy of other players COMPASION for doing the right thing and try to kill there lich in the mission so the current lich can go away and the other 3 players can have a chance to have THERE lich spawn so THEY can do the OBJECTIVE of the node they all yoined for in the first place.

 

Not killing your lich for reasons like "don't have the words" "don't want to level it up" or 95% of the time not even responding when ASKED by the team is pure selfish behavior and don't cry when you get flak by the "toxic players" for not doing the objective of the mission YOU yoined in the first place and actively hindering for others.

And the nerve some people have to make the suggestion that people ho want to do the OBJECTIVE of the mission should be the one go SOLO instead the ones ho don't want to stab ther lich is mind boggling on a hole new level. If you want to chose the time sinking way by farming all the murmurs before trying your lich go and do it solo or recruit friends clan mates whatever DON'T yoin public mission in order to hinder 3 other peoples progress for your comfort.

[Raqiya]

10 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

No, it really goes like this: by what logic is stabbing your lich mandatory, when DE has clearly indicated that it is not, it is not in the mission description and you can totally 100% finish the mission successfully without attacking your lich (hint: it isn't mandatory).

It can't be that the simple logic is that lich farmers want to save a few minutes of mission time without any regard for how that affects another player (effects that are permanent and affect all the following lich-related missions) in order to more quickly complete their PERSONAL objective? Because if that is the case, it is quite a twisted logic...

Regarding the comparison to a PoE Bounty:

• the goal of the PoE bounty is completing it (the goal of a lich mission is not killing your lich)
• you can't complete the bounty without completing the submissions (you can 100% successfully complete a lich mission without killing your lich)
• not helping with THE MISSION OBJECTIVE is leeching in either case (but the mission objective in the lich mission is NOT killing your lich, that is just the lich farmer's personal objective)
• not killing your lich is NOT leeching (and not "obstructing" either), as long as you help with the ACTUAL MISSION OBJECTIVES

If there really was an "attack your lich"-mission and players would join up and not do it, jeopardising the mission success, I have no problem calling them out as "obstructors" or "leechers". However, there is currently no such missions, and trying to force other players to fulfil YOUR OWN PERSONAL objectives by bullying and harassing them is just totally wrong.

The whole reason for the liches existence is to kill it. They don't exist for you to farm murmurs if that was so then why put a cap  on thrall Spawn and why does stabbing your lich also provide murmurs? 

By not stabbing your Lich your denying others the right to do the objective of the entire update. 

[SordidDreams]

3 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

A devstream. They showed a lich assassination mission. Basically you start in your railjack and board the lich galleon to kill them.

And neither are they forcing you to stab the lich. They are asking you to do so, so you don't screw over their experience. They can't force you, same way as they can't force you to kill the thralls, but ignoring what you're supposed to do is just a $&*^ move.

Funny you mention that, because here there is a freaking regulation that yes, forces you to do exactly that. If you can't go forwards because there's a red light, but you can't turn right, you're supposed to turn right. If you block other people from going right because you want to go forwards, that can incur in a sanction.

Oh, so that's just BS hearsay, then. A lot of what they said about the lich system on dev streams turned out to have just been lies falsehoods.

Verbal bullying is a form of coercion.

Lol, no. That is BS, I don't believe that for a second. You just torpedoed your credibility in this discussion.

Edited November 17, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Test-995]

  

1 minute ago, Koknoob said:

Joining to a kuva lich hunting mission node and not trying to stab your lich when it's spawn is the same thing like joining a public Tridolon hunt in cetus and then not puting in your shard after the first boss "because I don't want to fight a harder boss".

Hey, just do it solo and try finishing mission without killing none of thralls/liches, wow strange you can finish it just fine!

DE didn't made liches or thralls as main objective of those missions, sadly(?).

[Raqiya]

10 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I do see that. My argument is and always has been that maybe being denied a lich spawn (because it's not even guaranteed to happen) is a trivial amount of harm, whereas having to stab your lich and make your future lich missions much harder can be a severe burden. The way the system is set up, someone has to bite the bullet. It seems like common sense that it should be those people to whom it's no big deal rather than those to whom it's serious setback.

The stystem was poorly designed I agree. 

but let's not forget the lich system was meant for high level players. People who aren't able to kill the Lich's just aren't ready for the content and shouldn't be creating a lich in the first place and for the people who did should just go public and get carried through or request outside aid to remove the Lich and not touch it again till their strong enough. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Raqiya