Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[Teridax68]

32 minutes ago, (XB1)Chroma Prime said:

Are you trying to tell me that moving the mouse and understanding the concept of object permanence are insular skill sets? 

I would also add breathing to this list, as your retort here raises a rather interesting dilemma: you are either telling me that skill in Conclave reduces itself down to those elementary factors, which defeats the notion that it requires any skill at all, or generalizing to such an absurd degree that none of the skills you've just listed accurately describe the learning curve in Conclave at all. In either case, you've defeated your own argument.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I would also add breathing to this list, as your retort here raises a rather interesting dilemma: you are either telling me that skill in Conclave reduces itself down to those elementary factors, which defeats the notion that it requires any skill at all, or generalizing to such an absurd degree that none of the skills you've just listed accurately describe the learning curve in Conclave at all. In either case, you've defeated your own argument.

Any task can be reduced to basic functions such as breathing or moving your body in specific motions. Object permanence(for example, being aware that there are people around you outside your vision) and moving your mouse (for example aiming, or throwing it at someone that happens to enjoy conclave) are two of the most important skill sets in conclave. However, they are not the only skill sets. Conclave doesn't reduce itself down to those skill sets, it merely requires those two skill sets ( and other sets of skills) to be successful in conclave. 

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Any task can be reduced to basic functions such as breathing or moving your body in specific motions. Object permanence(for example, being aware that there are people around you outside your vision) and moving your mouse (for example aiming, or throwing it at someone that happens to enjoy conclave) are two of the most important skill sets in conclave. However, they are not the only skill sets. Conclave doesn't reduce itself down to those skill sets, it merely requires those two skill sets ( and other sets of skills) to be successful in conclave. 

So out of the two options I listed, the argument falls into the latter. Abstracting to such a ridiculous degree fails to say anything meaningful about Conclave, or any sort of activity that can be said to have an insular skillset. What was the point?

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

41 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So out of the two options I listed, the argument falls into the latter. Abstracting to such a ridiculous degree fails to say anything meaningful about Conclave, or any sort of activity that can be said to have an insular skillset. What was the point?

The point shows that conclave doesnt have as insular as a skill set that you think it has.

[Teridax68]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

The point shows that conclave doesnt have as insular as a skill set that you think it has.

... because you are including such vague and overly generalized skills as moving the mouse. By the standard you are setting, literally no skillset can ever be said to be insular, because you are abstracting to such an extreme degree that all meaningful comparison is lost. The very fact that you are insisting upon defending such a brazenly silly position speaks volumes about your stance on the subject of discussion.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

25 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... because you are including such vague and overly generalized skills as moving the mouse. By the standard you are setting, literally no skillset can ever be said to be insular, because you are abstracting to such an extreme degree that all meaningful comparison is lost. The very fact that you are insisting upon defending such a brazenly silly position speaks volumes about your stance on the subject of discussion.

No skill set is insular. Anybody can learn to do anything, if they put their mind to it.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

No skill set is insular. Anybody can learn to do anything, if they put their mind to it.

Learning through perseverance has literally nothing to do with the degree of insularity of a skillset. Moreover, when one cares to look into any level of detail beyond such banalities as motor control or object permanence, it does not take a genius to realize that some skillsets have more carry-over to other formats than others. As it stands, the skillset specifically fostered by the Conclave does not even carry over to the rest of Warframe, let alone to any other video game or activity, and so far the only objections given have hinged entirely upon self-defeatingly extreme degrees of abstraction. While stringing together vaguely inspiring platitudes may feel somewhat uplifting, it does not a cogent argument make.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Learning through perseverance has literally nothing to do with the degree of insularity of a skillset. Moreover, when one cares to look into any level of detail beyond such banalities as motor control or object permanence, it does not take a genius to realize that some skillsets have more carry-over to other formats than others. As it stands, the skillset specifically fostered by the Conclave does not even carry over to the rest of Warframe, let alone to any other video game or activity, and so far the only objections given have hinged entirely upon self-defeatingly extreme degrees of abstraction. While stringing together vaguely inspiring platitudes may feel somewhat uplifting, it does not a cogent argument make.

And what exactly are the skill sets specifically fostered by conclave, in your opinion?

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Learning through perseverance has literally nothing to do with the degree of insularity of a skillset. Moreover, when one cares to look into any level of detail beyond such banalities as motor control or object permanence, it does not take a genius to realize that some skillsets have more carry-over to other formats than others. As it stands, the skillset specifically fostered by the Conclave does not even carry over to the rest of Warframe, let alone to any other video game or activity, and so far the only objections given have hinged entirely upon self-defeatingly extreme degrees of abstraction. While stringing together vaguely inspiring platitudes may feel somewhat uplifting, it does not a cogent argument make.

That's not entirely true. Most notably, the movement skills used in conclave are quite effective in PvE for obvious reasons. Not so much the dodging skills, but the precision and pathing have clear uses. Less so, there are the other mechanical skills, like accuracy. Even if you use something like Staticor or Ogris, better shot placement makes for more effective killing, but it really shows when you use some like Komorex or Vectis Prime with an Arcane Momentum set or 2, or my absolute favorite form of skill reward in PvE, Concentrated Arrow. (If you're really good, you can build almost purely for damage and range, while surviving off some passive regen.)

Conclave skills are most definitely useful in PvE. The issue is that the reward for using those skills is incredibly low in comparison to the time it takes to develop them. I feel great about the fact that while using Oberon, I can generally outdamage frames like Saryn and Mesa on Hydron, and outspeeding my allies mainly by using 2 Arcane Consequence sets is really cool too, but that helps farming to be only a smidgen more efficient, all things considered. (Granted, these are random squads, so I generally don't know how good their builds are, or how hard they may be trying.) It's no wonder why people don't develop these skills. I wouldn't dare tell anybody that it's worth it for the sake of PvE, unless they're willing to be a pretty specialized Ivara main. (Concentrated Arrow builds that don't invest much into safety are just that great.)

Still though, it does help, and if the devs eventually do make some more difficult and rewarding content, as they've been saying they would, that will improve things by quite a bit for skillful players. I've seen so many amazingly skillful tricks, which I just wish will become more practical.

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

And what exactly are the skill sets specifically fostered by conclave, in your opinion?

... I'm not the one who's meant to answer that question? You're the Conclave main, you tell me; the fact remains that whatever goes on in Conclave clearly has no bearing on the rest of Warframe.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

That's not entirely true. Most notably, the movement skills used in conclave are quite effective in PvE for obvious reasons. Not so much the dodging skills, but the precision and pathing have clear uses. Less so, there are the other mechanical skills, like accuracy. Even if you use something like Staticor or Ogris, better shot placement makes for more effective killing, but it really shows when you use some like Komorex or Vectis Prime with an Arcane Momentum set or 2, or my absolute favorite form of skill reward in PvE, Concentrated Arrow. (If you're really good, you can build almost purely for damage and range, while surviving off some passive regen.)

... but where do those skills show themselves, though? The movement in Conclave visibly does not follow the same pattern of movement as in PvE, as shown in several videos already, which makes PvE by far the better mode to practice parkour. Similarly, shooting in Conclave differs from PvE in that PvE focuses heavily on handling many, slow-moving targets, whereas Conclave has the player focus on a small number of targets, or just one target, parkouring quickly at a rapid pace. Both halves of the game have shooting and movement, but both are played in almost the opposite way from one another.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Conclave skills are most definitely useful in PvE. The issue is that the reward for using those skills is incredibly low in comparison to the time it takes to develop them. I feel great about the fact that while using Oberon, I can generally outdamage frames like Saryn and Mesa on Hydron, and outspeeding my allies mainly by using 2 Arcane Consequence sets is really cool too, but that helps farming to be only a smidgen more efficient, all things considered. (Granted, these are random squads, so I generally don't know how good their builds are, or how hard they may be trying.) It's no wonder why people don't develop these skills. I wouldn't dare tell anybody that it's worth it for the sake of PvE, unless they're willing to be a pretty specialized Ivara main. (Concentrated Arrow builds that don't invest much into safety are just that great.)

In other words, the skills you supposedly carry over to PvE have no real bearing on your PvE success, particularly when other skills exist that would let you become far more successful, e.g. Operator switching. If we're scraping this far down the barrel for carry-over, at this point we might as well relegate Conclave to the same level as any video game that teaches basic hand-eye coordination and shooter mechanics, for how much it prepares the player for Warframe proper.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Still though, it does help, and if the devs eventually do make some more difficult and rewarding content, as they've been saying they would, that will improve things by quite a bit for skillful players. I've seen so many amazingly skillful tricks, which I just wish will become more practical.

This is where I can agree with you more: I do believe PvE often has the player rely on overwhelming force rather than any sort of precision, and that's a shame given how the game has the potential to test the player on how agile, stealthy, or accurate they can be. I don't believe Conclave is going to help this, because ultimately it plays too much like a different game to offer any valuable lesson, but I do think DE ought to try incorporating some preexisting elements more, such as the obstacle courses they released for the Dojo, or those shooting challenges in the Kela de Thaym mission. There's been some amount of progress in this respect with the new Corpus Gas City tileset, which has multiple levels of movement mastery that reward the player for using parkour, then Void Dashing in the right spaces. With that kind of design, plus more diverse enemies, perhaps more diverse weak spots, and so on, there would already be greater diversity to play. Perhaps DE at some point could also experiment with some faster-moving/parkouring enemies, at which point Conclave would in fact have some proper carry-over, but beyond that PvE's development will have to come from itself, not from borrowing the design of its failed PvP mode.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... I'm not the one who's meant to answer that question? You're the Conclave main, you tell me; the fact remains that whatever goes on in Conclave clearly has no bearing on the rest of Warframe.

Well, what did you mean by insular skill sets? 

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Well, what did you mean by insular skill sets? 

Exactly what was said above? Whichever skillset Conclave develops, it clearly has not carried over to the rest of Warframe. I could list specifics, like the movement and the shooting, with ample evidence on this thread to support those already, but the reality is that it does not even matter what the skillset for Conclave is: the very fact that PvE has so far had absolutely nothing to learn from Conclave, nor any distinguished PvE players emerge from that environment, is itself evidence enough, regardless of specific skills being discussed. Conclave's skillset, just like Conclave itself, is insular, by dint of having no notable presence outside of Conclave.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

Exactly what was said above? Whichever skillset Conclave develops, it clearly has not carried over to the rest of Warframe. I could list specifics, like the movement and the shooting, with ample evidence on this thread to support those already, but the reality is that it does not even matter what the skillset for Conclave is: the very fact that PvE has so far had absolutely nothing to learn from Conclave, nor any distinguished PvE players emerge from that environment, is itself evidence enough, regardless of specific skills being discussed. Conclave's skillset, just like Conclave itself, is insular, by dint of having no notable presence outside of Conclave.

So you are saying that being accurate and skillful with movement does not carry over into pve? In any way, shape, or form?

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

So you are saying that being accurate and skillful with movement does not carry over into pve? In any way, shape, or form?

Not in the manner that is specifically demanded by Conclave play, no. Once again, you are abstracting here in such a manner that what you said could apply to literally any video game, not just Warframe.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Not in the manner that is specifically demanded by Conclave play, no. Once again, you are abstracting here in such a manner that what you said could apply to literally any video game, not just Warframe.

Just learning to handle your aim better from conclave carries over into so many games that it would be impossible for me to list them all here,

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Just learning to handle your aim better from conclave carries over into so many games that it would be impossible for me to list them all here,

By all means, please demonstrate how your experience in Conclave, and Conclave specifically, meaningfully improved your play in any game. Perhaps Warframe could be a start.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

By all means, please demonstrate how your experience in Conclave, and Conclave specifically, meaningfully improved your play in any game. Perhaps Warframe could be a start.

Just off the top of my head? The mobility skills I have gained have drastically improved my survivability in PvE. The aim that I've acquired through years of playing conclave have improved my gameplay in other games like halo reach and Destiny 2. Heck, even the mobility of other players improved my reaction time to the point where I could parry most light attacks on reaction in For Honor. I could probably come up with more but I don't want to spend a warframe thread talking about other games.

[Teridax68]

Just now, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Just off the top of my head? The mobility skills I have gained have drastically improved my survivability in PvE. The aim that I've acquired through years of playing conclave have improved my gameplay in other games like halo reach and Destiny 2. Heck, even the mobility of other players improved my reaction time to the point where I could parry most light attacks on reaction in For Honor. I could probably come up with more but I don't want to spend a warframe thread talking about other games.

Okay, but where is any supporting evidence for this? You were asked to demonstrate the carry-over in question, not write some pretty little narrative where the Conclave player talks about how great Conclave is. Given the obvious degree of bias in this exchange, you should know better than to expect anyone to take your word for these sorts of specious claims.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but where is any supporting evidence for this? You were asked to demonstrate the carry-over in question, not write some pretty little narrative where the Conclave player talks about how great Conclave is. Given the obvious degree of bias in this exchange, you should know better than to expect anyone to take your word for these sorts of specious claims.

Ive listed those examples. Would you like me to make a dozen recordings where I show my gameplay for each game that I have listed, and then see if I miraculously have clips of me playing said games before I had started to play conclave?

[Teridax68]

Just now, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Ive listed those examples. Would you like me to make a dozen recordings where I show my gameplay for each game that I have listed, and then see if I miraculously have clips of me playing said games before I had started to play conclave?

Not only that, I'd like you to point out the parallels between your play in Conclave and your play in those other games, because carry-over is the argument you are defending here. Telling pretty little stories on an internet forum isn't quite an adequate substitute for actual evidence.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

Not only that, I'd like you to point out the parallels between your play in Conclave and your play in those other games, because carry-over is the argument you are defending here. Telling pretty little stories on an internet forum isn't quite an adequate substitute for actual evidence.

I aim in conclave and I aim in Halo Reach and Destiny 2. Thats the carry over. I've honed my reaction time over the years playing conclave because it fast paced, so fast paced that it makes other "fast paced" games like For Honor feel sluggish to me. That's the carry over.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

I aim in conclave and I aim in Halo Reach and Destiny 2. Thats the carry over. I've honed my reaction time over the years playing conclave because it fast paced, so fast paced that it makes other "fast paced" games like For Honor feel sluggish to me. That's the carry over.

Then congratulations, you have successfully managed to prove my point again by resorting to such an absurd degree of abstraction that you cannot say anything meaningful about skill carry-over from Conclave to any other game, let alone Warframe. How exactly are you expecting to convince anyone here otherwise by invoking such generic gameplay concepts as aim and reaction time?

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Then congratulations, you have successfully managed to prove my point again by resorting to such an absurd degree of abstraction that you cannot say anything meaningful about skill carry-over from Conclave to any other game, let alone Warframe. How exactly are you expecting to convince anyone here otherwise by invoking such generic gameplay concepts as aim and reaction time?

So what you are saying is that being good at a game mode that demands skill in aim, reaction time, and understanding of a 3d space can not carry over into any other game in a way that is immediately obvious to anyone?

[Teridax68]

Just now, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

So what you are saying is that being good at a game mode that demands skill in aim, reaction time, and understanding of a 3d space can not carry over into any other game in a way that is immediately obvious to anyone?

No more than any other game that has the same demands, which is virtually any 3D shooter. Your job here was to make the case for Conclave's specific skillset having carry-over to Warframe or other games: so far, not only have you failed to do so in comedic fashion, your lack of even the slightest amount of detail in describing the skills fostered by Conclave leads me to believe you may not even know what the Conclave skillset even entails.

[(XBOX)Chroma Prime]

42 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Just off the top of my head? The mobility skills I have gained have drastically improved my survivability in PvE. The aim that I've acquired through years of playing conclave have improved my gameplay in other games like halo reach and Destiny 2. Heck, even the mobility of other players improved my reaction time to the point where I could parry most light attacks on reaction in For Honor. I could probably come up with more but I don't want to spend a warframe thread talking about other games.

Didn't you get placed in masters during one season on For Honor?