Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(XBOX)Salty Ginger]

I think it needs to be completely redone. Maybe a regular mission with squad vs squad objectives

for example

2 squads load into a mode and fight each to say capture an enemy or defend a position against enemy AI, and enemy tenno

[Teridax68]

On 2019-12-09 at 2:44 AM, Kontrollo said:

However, it does work, and it's great. At least for those who are willing to pick it up.

Which is virtually no-one relative to the totality of the Warframe community. It thus cannot be accurately described as a success.

Quote

But I think I see the fundamental problem here. As a bad analogy: "how do I explain a fish the concept of a bird?"

If you can't come up with a suitable answer when attempting to sell the bird to the fish (and yes, I can confirm that's a terrible analogy), then it's not the latter's fault, it's your own. As it stands, even by your own admission Conclave is poorly accessible to players, and from the way you're framing it this is a fundamental problem that cannot simply be changed with a reworked new player experience.

Quote

In a nutshell, the difference is that "random flopping around" in Conclave won't win you any games against good players. You have to be able to move, evade, aim, shoot. That's what this Space Ninja combat is all about. Of course, PvE doesn't really prepare you for that. So again, not surprised you don't see any difference in those clips even with thousands of hours in the game. But I'd say that's a strength of this game -- it caters to a wide variety of people and playstyles.

Sure, except Conclave is a significant portion of content that ultimately doesn't cater to very many people, and that by your own admission here has very little to do with the rest of the game. The problem with the elitist attitude you're displaying here is that every attempt you make to puff yourself up at the expense of PvE players only further highlights how ill-fitting Conclave is to the game. Not only is Conclave inaccessible, you don't even seem to want it to be accessible either, which I think is damning in and of itself. 

Quote

The rest of your post looks like the usual we get from you, so again, not going to indulge that.

And this is your usual point where you give up and dismiss the bulk of the arguments made, while attempting to disguise your reasons for doing so by displacing blame. In short, you've argued so ineptly that you've in fact proven my own point and damaged yours, confirming that Conclave is inaccessible, poorly-balanced and supported, and unable to justify itself on its own merits, with your strongest defense of it apparently being "why should we remove Conclave when there's also other bad content in the game?". Really, the only reason you want Conclave to stay around is because you personally like it, which is a valid personal opinion to have, but isn't really solid in the larger context of the entire playerbase, the near-totality of which dislikes the mode. Conclave thus cannot be said to have ever been successful, nor will it ever be.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Teridax68

[Paradoxity]

On 2019-12-08 at 10:10 PM, Kontrollo said:

Yet, people clamour Content Drought! from about two weeks onward even after a big update. Meanwhile those of us who also like PvP are just going back to that.

Well, not now of course. Because with all the issues it had before, it was at least still somewhat enjoyable. Now it's just full-on cheese most of the time, and good games are few and far between.

 

Hint: It doesn't have to be popular with everybody to be successful. Also, despite all their flaws, I'd say the Solar Rail Conflicts and the few Conclave events were somewhat popular, too.

PvP is not an answer to lack of content and hasn't ever been in Warframe, let's go ahead and get that clear now. Yes, it provides a handful of players something to do between PvE content drops (Or in lieu of them) but it's not a solution for the vast majority of players and we both know it. This is part of the reason that I consistently argue against devoting any resources to PvP- DE clearly needs those bodies on deck to get PvE content out in a workable state (Or get that content out, as it may be, to patch to workable ASAP.) And I'm not saying that out of malice for DE- I'm making that assumption based on their responses to the mess the lich system is right now. They're very clearly all hands on deck for Railjack and still on the struggle bus to get it out according to their own timetables. But that's really neither here nor there for our discussion here. 

The issue there is that most people aren't interested in PvP. This isn't a case of "PvP has gotten progressively worse so fewer people play it" It's a case of "There was momentary interest when it was added, and then everyone dropped it for various reasons." PvP in Warframe has never been popular, and, given the reputation of the game as a PvE-centric one, probably never really will be. 

And no, you're correct. It doesn't have to be popular with everybody to be successful. Nightwave, for example, has it's fair share of detractors, and is still considered a successful replacement for alerts for the most part. PvP content, however, has historically been unpopular and unsuccessful- Solar Rails, like Conclave, were popular... for like a month? I think? It's kinda tough remembering, but basically once all the flaws in the system became apparent, DE removed it in favor of the dark sectors we have now. Conclave events may be relatively more popular than conclave usually is- not that that's a high bar to clear- but you'll note that, once the event is done.. we go back to the same issue of conclave being a ghost town for most players. 

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-12-09 at 10:39 PM, Teridax68 said:

Which is virtually no-one relative to the totality of the Warframe community. It thus cannot be accurately described as a success.

It's definitely a minority who enjoy it, but the same can be said about many other parts of the game. The thread title is "can it be successful?" not "can it be described as a success". Food for thought?

But I still have to ask this, have you even read the earlier posts in this thread? With as many problems there are now, it's no wonder people don't want to play it.

 

On 2019-12-09 at 10:39 PM, Teridax68 said:

If you can't come up with a suitable answer when attempting to sell the bird to the fish (and yes, I can confirm that's a terrible analogy), then it's not the latter's fault, it's your own. As it stands, even by your own admission Conclave is poorly accessible to players, and from the way you're framing it this is a fundamental problem that cannot simply be changed with a reworked new player experience.

Sure, except Conclave is a significant portion of content that ultimately doesn't cater to very many people, and that by your own admission here has very little to do with the rest of the game. The problem with the elitist attitude you're displaying here is that every attempt you make to puff yourself up at the expense of PvE players only further highlights how ill-fitting Conclave is to the game. Not only is Conclave inaccessible, you don't even seem to want it to be accessible either, which I think is damning in and of itself.

...

This is incredibly ironic. Picking out and on the introductory analogy to my actual attempt at giving you a suitable answer.

But as expected, that wouldn't be satisfactory to someone who simply lacks the experience. So here's another one: If you want to understand, go into a game against someone who knows what they're doing. Try flopping around randomly. See if that makes you win a match. It's easy as that, actually. (Hint: it won't.)

Well, in theory, at least. In practice you won't do that, of course. Because that would mean stepping out of your comfort zone and reflecting on something written in a discussion you fundamentally don't agree with in the first place

 

Yes I admit Conclave is poorly accessible to new people. But you got the other part wrong. It's because the devs refuse to invest the time to improve that. E.g. New players only starting with a melee instead of a full loadout, anyone?

That it is this separated from the main game is by request of the community (people like you). As an example, very early on there were potato blueprints as rare rewards in there, which got removed because people didn't like that. And by the way, things like mining are much more separated from the core gameplay than Conclave is, and yet it was put into Nightwave and is part of the grind for Railjack already. I fully admit to that (hah!).

Elitist attitude? Feel free to elaborate in what ways I'm displaying an elitist attitude. Maybe it's because I'm saying it's good that the game caters to a wide variety of playstyles? 😄

 

The rest is your usual, so not going to indulge that again. (See a pattern there?)

Edited December 11, 2019 by Kontrollo
typo

[Miledude]

I think Pvp could be possible in Warframe, the matter of fact it would bring more people to play warframe, but not if is stay as it is right now, conclave is fun for some people, just becouse its pvp, but its still arena, TBH there is much better pvp arena games out there so there is no reason to play unfinnised game mod, but, so lets say we get open world pvp with railjack, invading other people in mission, or perhaps hunt them down like a stalker, joining grineer or corpus ranks, be a renegade tenno, possibilities, possibilities... DE just need a will to do it...otherwise we can just dream whit a Ozzy :P 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Miledude
correction

[Teridax68]

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

It's definitely a minority who enjoy it, but the same can be said about many other parts of the game.

Many others, such as... ? For sure, different parts of the game are differently successful, but as said already above, if the feature is unsuccessful to a degree that even remotely approaches Conclave, it usually gets heavily criticized by the community, to the point of spurring change from DE.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

The thread title is "can it be successful?" not "can it be subscribed as a success". Food for thought?

Or perhaps food for reading posts properly, as I already pointed out that Conclave is not only unsuccessful, but is unlikely to ever be in the future by its very core design. I asked you to explain why or how this would change, and am still waiting for an answer.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

But I still have to ask this, have you even read the earlier posts in this thread? With as many problems there are now, it's no wonder people don't want to play it.

I did, and in fact listed those same problems, as you would have known if you had read my own posts. That does not prevent the fact that Conclave has some fundamental, irreparable problems, beyond just its current implementational problems.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

This is incredibly ironic. Picking out and on the introductory analogy to my actual attempt at giving you a suitable answer.

Well no, I didn't simply pick apart your analogy, I pointed out that your argument is wrong because you're effectively saying that the Warframe community is innately ill-disposed to understand how Conclave works. That's not a good thing. That doesn't help Conclave. But you still said it, because you couldn't stop yourself from putting down the broader community just to raise up Conclave's far smaller group. That's how wrong-headed your approach to this topic is.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

But as expected, that wouldn't be satisfactory to someone who simply lacks the experience. So here's another one: If you want to understand, go into a game against someone who knows what they're doing. Try flopping around randomly. See if that makes you win a match. It's easy as that, actually. (Hint: it won't.)

This is a rather bizarre argument to make, because nobody here is saying that flopping around randomly is the be-all and end-all to winning in Conclave, which is the straw man you've chosen to build here. Conclave obviously has its own skillset... except that skillset is worthless outside of Conclave, and ultimately only serves to make the mode even more inaccessible to newcomers, especially if the net result looks clownish and even literally nauseating to some. I don't even know what you're trying to argue here, because I myself have stated that Conclave has an issue of being unfriendly to newcomers, who have no real or reliable tools to progress, particularly since Recruit Conditioning at this point is only a button one presses to be guaranteed to never enter a Conclave match, due to lack of players.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, in theory, at least. In practice you won't do that, of course. Because that would mean stepping out of your comfort zone and reflecting on something written in a discussion you fundamentally don't agree with in the first place

Or, alternatively, doing something I know I dislike, for no discernible purpose other than to make myself suffer, when I could just play pretty much any other part of Warframe and have a good time instead. If you're trying to sell Conclave to people by telling them that it's necessary for them to endure an unpleasant experience for who knows how long, it is no surprise that the Warframe community isn't sold.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Yes I admit Conclave is poorly accessible to new people. But you got the other part wrong. It's because the devs refuse to invest the time to improve that. E.g. New players only starting with a melee instead of a full loadout, anyone?

And how would the latter meaningfully improve Conclave, pray tell? How exactly is it going to help players to dump a whole lot of options onto them when they lack the necessary information to use them? It could certainly bridge the power gap between newer and more experienced Conclave players (which never should've existed in the first place), but itself does a fundamentally poor job of easing players into an entirely separate customization system they have no knowledge of.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

That it is this separated from the main game is by request of the community (people like you). As an example, very early on there were potato blueprints as rare rewards in there, which got removed because people didn't like that.

I can confirm that I made no such request, and would be absolutely fine with potato BPs and the like existing through Conclave progression, a fact you well know because we had a debate on this when UMs rolled out. I am glad that Conclave is not mandatory to progression in Warframe, though, because it's a horribly-designed piece of content, and you should be thankful too, as the community would almost certainly be out for blood if that ever changed.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

And by the way, things like mining are much more separated from the core gameplay than Conclave is, and yet it was put into Nightwave and is part of the grind for Railjack already. I fully admit to that (hah!).

But it's not, though, because it's as simple as taking a weapon with its own special mechanics, just like the Synthesis Scanner before it, and engaging in its own gameplay within the world. I can agree that it's definitely not part of the core loop of combat or movement or the like, and I'd honestly be fine with removing those minigames, but then players also have the option to completely avoid mining and fishing now thanks to Thumpers and Exploiter. If you really want to make this comparison, perhaps PvE players should be able to access Conclave-exclusive cosmetics through PvE, so that nobody would have a reason to complain when making themselves play through PvP for them.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Elitist attitude? Feel free to elaborate in what ways I'm displaying an elitist attitude. Maybe it's because I'm saying it's good that the game caters to a wide variety of playstyles? 😄

Within this very post, you: a) tried to pretend that Conclave players were more skilled than PvE players, b) heavily implied PvE players were innately lazy and unwilling to challenge themselves, and c) perpetuated the persecution complex of the PvE community supposedly being the reason why PvP has been largely forgotten in Warframe. I'm absolutely all for a wide variety of playstyles, and if you bothered to venture out of your own little comfort zone of sneering at people on Conclave-related threads, you would've almost certainly stumbled on one of the many threads where I posted a desire for Warframe to open itself up to more playstyles than just horde-mode heavy combat, including playstyles based on stealth, speed, or precision. If Conclave really offers something the rest of Warframe doesn't in terms of encouraging these skills, I'd like those to be integrated into Warframe proper. As it stands, though, no Conclave player has ever demonstrated any exceptional ability in PvE, despite virtually every single one who posts on these forums insisting they're above everyone else, so I'd say it's less about a variety of playstyles here, and more about a small number of people accumulating within the game who just so happen to have very little to do with the rest of Warframe or its community at all.

56 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

The rest is your usual, so not going to indulge that again. (See a pattern there?)

I do, actually, as pointed out above. You are obviously free to ignore whichever parts of my post you cannot even attempt to respond to convincingly, but pretending those points don't exist at all doesn't quite work, either. If nothing else, I would at least encourage you to read posts past the first few paragraphs, as the one you chose to ignore answers questions you raised in your subsequent reply. I'd rather not have to repeat myself in a textual conversation, as being forced to do so out of sheer deliberate ignorance on the part of my interlocutor tends to reflect poorly upon the latter, and the integrity of the discussion overall.

[Kontrollo]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Many others, such as... ? For sure, different parts of the game are differently successful, but as said already above, if the feature is unsuccessful to a degree that even remotely approaches Conclave, it usually gets heavily criticized by the community, to the point of spurring change from DE.

Such as Archwing, Mining, Fishing, for example? Oh wait, what's that? Archwing is getting some major dev investment yet again despite how unpopular it is? Food for thought, again.

 

Quote

Or perhaps food for reading posts properly, as I already pointed out that Conclave is not only unsuccessful, but is unlikely to ever be in the future by its very core design. I asked you to explain why or how this would change, and am still waiting for an answer.

Maybe you're not playing the same game as me, or maybe you weren't around for Solar Rail Conflicts and the PvP events? Conclave was more popular in 2015 and 2016, too, when it had some amount of dev investment. Besides, as pointed out in my previous posts here, I've seen one guy playing Destiny 2 PvP having more Twitch viewers than the entirety of Warframe on two occasions now. PvP is popular with people, that's just how it is.

 

Quote

Well no, I didn't simply pick apart your analogy, I pointed out that your argument is wrong because you're effectively saying that the Warframe community is innately ill-disposed to understand how Conclave works. That's not a good thing. That doesn't help Conclave. But you still said it, because you couldn't stop yourself from putting down the broader community just to raise up Conclave's far smaller group. That's how wrong-headed your approach to this topic is.

Slander/Strawman. This was very specifically about you, not the Warframe community as a whole.

 

Quote

This is a rather bizarre argument to make, because nobody here is saying that flopping around randomly is the be-all and end-all to winning in Conclave, which is the straw man you've chosen to build here.

Wrong. Fallacy fallacy, by the way. What I wrote was in response to you calling the movement in both clips the same "random flopping aound". And I followed it up with what actually matters. Also, your earlier words:

On 2019-11-27 at 11:18 PM, Teridax68 said:

Except when it comes to actual combat, at which point the best strategy is visibly to just flop around and shoot at random, as can be seen here.

 

Quote

...

... and on it goes, but let's just look at this one:

Quote

particularly since Recruit Conditioning at this point is only a button one presses to be guaranteed to never enter a Conclave match, due to lack of players.

Provably wrong. I myself have been hosting for the RC folks from time to time, and they play their games. I have retained logs to prove that even. Edit: Actually, I decided to host some RC games right after writing this. Note the 8 players, a full lobby:

 

Quote

Within this very post, you: a) tried to pretend that Conclave players were more skilled than PvE players, b) heavily implied PvE players were innately lazy and unwilling to challenge themselves, and c) perpetuated the persecution complex of the PvE community supposedly being the reason why PvP has been largely forgotten in Warframe. I'm absolutely all for a wide variety of playstyles, and if you bothered to venture out of your own little comfort zone of sneering at people on Conclave-related threads, you would've almost certainly stumbled on one of the many threads where I posted a desire for Warframe to open itself up to more playstyles than just horde-mode heavy combat, including playstyles based on stealth, speed, or precision. If Conclave really offers something the rest of Warframe doesn't in terms of encouraging these skills, I'd like those to be integrated into Warframe proper. As it stands, though, no Conclave player has ever demonstrated any exceptional ability in PvE, despite virtually every single one who posts on these forums insisting they're above everyone else, so I'd say it's less about a variety of playstyles here, and more about a small number of people accumulating within the game who just so happen to have very little to do with the rest of Warframe or its community at all.

• a) Baseless accusation/False dichotomy. As most things in life, it's a matter of practice. PvE just becomes really easy when you reach a certain power level that you don't have to rely on basics like aiming, moving and evading. But that's cool for those who enjoy it, I don't judge. I am a PvE player, too. Mainly so, actually. I will never even be able to spend as much time in PvP as I already did in PvE before this game shuts down, I'd wager.
   
• b) Baseless accusation. That's just you reading things into my posts that aren't there. This was specifically about you not going to investigate why the movement seen in the two videos aren't the same. This is about you. And it's not even that I think that you're too lazy, but that it would put a dent into your narrative if proven wrong on that one, right?
   
• c) That's elitist now? 😄
  Also, maybe look around the forums and maybe reddit in a while. Have you seen all the people calling for the removal of this side of the game? Or is this just your selective perception at work?
   
• [missing char]) The game doesn't emphasise being good at aiming and moving in PvE as soon as you get AoE weapons/past going through the start chart, that's a fact. And how would you know if there aren't Conclave players who have demonstrated exceptional ability in PvE, anyway? Red herring. They actually tried to emphasise movement & parkour with the Gas City update this year, by the way. But mostly, I see people just Void Dashing through it all.
   
• [missing char]) "insisting they're above everyone else"^{[citation needed]}  As said before, in the Conclave you have to be able to move, evade, aim and shoot. Manage all the things the game allows you to do. You get better at that through practice. There isn't some fundamental thing standing between "PvE" and "PvP" players that makes one better than the other, as you like to portray it.

 

Quote

I do, actually, as pointed out above. You are obviously free to ignore whichever parts of my post ...

Let me complete that for you: I am obviously free to ignore whichever parts of your posts I don't feel like addressing. Be it due to exaggerations, false accusations (like you just did above with the "elitist attitude"), and other things I feel like aren't conducive to a proper discussion. You're of course free to accuse me of wrongdoing again, but note that I couldn't care less about that, to be honest.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Kontrollo
typos / RC hosting screenshot

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

On 2019-11-27 at 4:18 PM, Teridax68 said:

Except when it comes to actual combat, at which point the best strategy is visibly to just flop around and shoot at random

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a rather bizarre argument to make, because nobody here is saying that flopping around randomly is the be-all and end-all to winning in Conclave, which is the straw man you've chosen to build here. Conclave obviously has its own skillset.

Oh, no!

[Teridax68]

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Such as Archwing, Mining, Fishing, for example? Oh wait, what's that? Archwing is getting some major dev investment yet again despite how unpopular it is? Food for thought, again.

It just did, yes, and to a fair degree of success, because unlike Conclave, Archwing isn't fundamentally irreparable, it's just been poorly implemented, and has proven to be successful when done right. Meanwhile, mining and fishing, whose mechanics are well-designed for the most part but not related to Warframe's core gameplay, have been made truly optional with Thumpers and Exploiter offering those same rewards through combat. This would be food for thought, if this hadn't already been said, so really, this is turning into who can repeat themselves more.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Maybe you're not playing the same game as me, or maybe you weren't around for Solar Rail Conflicts and the PvP events? Conclave was more popular in 2015 and 2016, too, when it had some amount of dev investment.

It was a tremendously popular fad, for sure, which also generated massive amounts of player toxicity and complaints as larger clans dominated through sheer size, rather than player skill. Even then it wasn't successful, which is why DE scrapped the whole thing and created the Conclave as an attempt to still cater to the PvP crowd.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

 Besides, as pointed out in my previous posts here, I've seen one guy playing Destiny 2 PvP having more Twitch viewers than the entirety of Warframe on two occasions now. PvP is popular with people, that's just how it is.

How are viewer counts relevant to the discussion here, again? Where exactly is your evidence that PvP is popular in Warframe? Because the mode is, among other things, infamous for being a ghost town when people attempt to join a random match.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Slander/Strawman. This was very specifically about you, not the Warframe community as a whole.

Putting aside how it's not very smart to explicitly state you've made personal attacks in your forum posts, you are clearly attempting to change the narrative here, as your post in question carried no such direction, and was set within a larger context of you denouncing the larger community's lack of interest in the mode. You really did pick the absolute worst way to try to contradict me here.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Wrong. Fallacy fallacy, by the way. What I wrote was in response to you calling the movement in both clips the same "random flopping aound". And I followed it up with what actually matters. Also, your earlier words:

Grouping these two together:

17 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Oh, no!

This is a nice attempt to quote mine me, but the very post you are both quoting itself does not have me reduce the literal entirety of Conclave to combat, and leaves room for the supposed kind of movement you are claiming to be different. I still stand by my statement that the movement in Conclave is haphazard and unpleasant to anyone unfamiliar with it, and I think your attempt to dress it up as anything more still leaves the emperor with no clothes. That does not prevent the fact that there is obviously a learning curve to Conclave, as there is to any sort of game, even if that learning curve ultimately offers no value outside of the mode. Similarly, that too does not prevent the fact that certain strategies exist that make Conclave much easier at the cost of being abusive, like spamming the Ignis without much need for precision.

Oh, and side note, but a fallacy fallacy is when someone specifically dismisses an argument purely because it contains a fallacy. By contrast, I not only pointed out the fallacy in your point, but also went on to explain why the point was wrong outside of that, namely by explaining how bragging about how skilled one supposedly needs to be to be good at Conclave carries no relevance as to the mode's worth, because the skills Conclave fosters themselves have no application outside of the mode. You even wrote this pointless quote where you cited how I go on in the paragraph, yet suspiciously omitted its remaining contents:

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

... and on it goes, but let's just look at this one:

 One has to ask: were you asking to be corrected?

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Provably wrong. I myself have been hosting for the RC folks from time to time, and they play their games. I have retained logs to prove that even. Edit: Actually, I decided to host some RC games right after writing this. Note the 8 players, a full lobby:

Hold on: so you specifically organizing and hosting RC games for a grand total of eight players across the whole Warframe community is somehow meant to convince me that it's not a ghost town? I'm sorry, but when I want a full squad in a PvE mission, I just select the mission I want to join and get matched with three more instantly. You've just put the nail in the coffin for RC here.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

 

• a) Baseless accusation/False dichotomy. As most things in life, it's a matter of practice. PvE just becomes really easy when you reach a certain power level that you don't have to rely on basics like aiming, moving and evading. But that's cool for those who enjoy it, I don't judge. I am a PvE player, too. Mainly so, actually. I will never even be able to spend as much time in PvP as I already did in PvE before this game shuts down, I'd wager.

You literally just proved me right with your response, though, and showed your dismissal of my point is utterly worthless, to say nothing of the improper citing of fallacies in strange revenge for me calling out yours (a false dichotomy is when only two alternatives are presented when more exist, which does not even begin to relate to this point).

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

• b) Baseless accusation. That's just you reading things into my posts that aren't there. This was specifically about you not going to investigate why the movement seen in the two videos aren't the same. This is about you. And it's not even that I think that you're too lazy, but that it would put a dent into your narrative if proven wrong on that one, right?

Outright lie, and a clear ad hominem:

On 2019-12-09 at 2:44 AM, Kontrollo said:

However, it does work, and it's great. At least for those who are willing to pick it up.

Also worth mentioning I'm not the only one criticizing the movement of PvE even on this very thread, so your attempt to pin the blame solely on me here is as unsuccessful as it is indicative of your dishonest approach to debate.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

• c) That's elitist now? 😄

Yes, it is elitist to believe the masses are conspiring to personally ruin the day for you and your tiny club, who are somehow above it all. I don't really see how you expect to win anyone over, besides the minuscule choir you're preaching to, by otherizing the PvE community in this manner.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

• Also, maybe look around the forums and maybe reddit in a while. Have you seen all the people calling for the removal of this side of the game? Or is this just your selective perception at work?

Oh, I'm well aware, and I fully support them, because the mode is crap. That you feel personally victimized by this speaks to your own biases and misplaced sense of identity, and is your own problem entirely, not that of a far larger number of people sane enough to see what's wrong with a piece of game content that has proven not to contribute positively to the game.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

• [missing char]) The game doesn't emphasise being good at aiming and moving in PvE as soon as you get AoE weapons/past going through the start chart, that's a fact.

PvE may not emphasize aiming, but has plenty more mechanics PvP doesn't include at all, namely the use of abilities at an extremely high rate, proper use of Operator mode, much deeper warframe modding, and even the use of gear in select circumstances. It also absolutely emphasize movement, as using it right is key to completing missions quickly, in an environment where completion speed is highly valued in multiplayer.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

• And how would you know if there aren't Conclave players who have demonstrated exceptional ability in PvE, anyway? Red herring.

I don't think you know what a red herring is: my simple point is that the Conclave skillset you so champion doesn't translate to anything outside of Conclave. If it had, there would be evidence for it, which you would have jumped to provide. My claim is therefore relevant to the point and leads into it, the opposite of a red herring.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

• They actually tried to emphasise movement & parkour with the Gas City update this year, by the way. But mostly, I see people just Void Dashing through it all.

And this is somehow unskilled, because... ?

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

• [missing char]) "insisting they're above everyone else"^{[citation needed]}  As said before, in the Conclave you have to be able to move, evade, aim and shoot. Manage all the things the game allows you to do. You get better at that through practice. There isn't some fundamental thing standing between "PvE" and "PvP" players that makes one better than the other, as you like to portray it.

As pointed out above, you certainly have things to do, it's just not really the same subset of things Warframe proper makes you do, and not in the same way. I myself have made no claim that PvE players are in any way better than PvP players or anything to that effect, so that's another lie, my point here though, same as the above, is that you have thus far been creating this distinction between PvE and PvP players to raise the latter at the expense of the former, all while trying to pretend that Conclave is somehow no different to the rest of Warframe, a narrative that is as false as it is inconsistent with itself.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Let me complete that for you: I am obviously free to ignore whichever parts of your posts I don't feel like addressing. Be it due to exaggerations, false accusations (like you just did above with the "elitist attitude"), and other things I feel like aren't conducive to a proper discussion. You're of course free to accuse me of wrongdoing again, but note that I couldn't care less about that, to be honest.

But you clearly do care, otherwise you wouldn't be responding to me. You just seem to believe you can dismiss valid arguments out of hand, under the unsupported pretext of "exaggerations" or "false accusations" or whatever, and that doing so somehow creates this special kind of magic where the argument exits reality, and can never be used again. As shown by this discussion, it stands to reason that this hasn't quite worked out for you thus far, and is unlikely to ever work in the future. Much like Conclave itself, it would be beneficial to you and this conversation if you faced reality, and accepted that some things you cling to fundamentally don't work.

[--UMBRA--Silverdk]

Conclave can be great. 

It has a lot of issues, but with a few small changes it could be amazing.

The freedom of movement warframe gives makes for a crazy high skill ceiling that feels rewarding to master. I understand that it might be too much for some and it's in stark contrast to the PvE portion where there is little to no difficulty. 

[uxx0]

PvP in Warframes current state isn't gonna work, no matter what you say. The only reason it hasn't been axed yet is because of Conclave being completely separate from the rest of the game, thus not breaking horribly with every update. It helps that there are not nearly enough players to get DEs attention when complaining about said bugs. Which was part of the reason why raids got removed, actually enough players complaining giving feedback about their favorite game mode breaking with every update. 3k+ users in the Conclave Discord (I just checked) are good and all, but can you beat the 10k+ from the former Raid School Bus? And the latter server is pretty much dead. So... evidently a big community isn't something Conclave has and for good reason.

My gripes with WF PvP aren't just balance, it's also mechanics (movement, why-the-#*!%-is-your-frame-always-in-the-middle-of-the-screen, ...) which I've seen done way better by other games. Those small things matter.a lot if you want to draw the right crowd. You can tell right away that WF wasn't made with PvP in mind, just by the way it plays. I tried playing it, but even finding good players to challenge yourself with is hard. Healthy competition is usually a good way to gauge a games PvP community. And Conclave doesn't seem to have any competition.

I'm all for PvP getting more popular. Maybe then it'll finally be temporarily removed to get reworked.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

54 minutes ago, uxx0 said:

PvP in Warframes current state isn't gonna work, no matter what you say. The only reason it hasn't been axed yet is because of Conclave being completely separate from the rest of the game, thus not breaking horribly with every update. It helps that there are not nearly enough players to get DEs attention when complaining about said bugs. Which was part of the reason why raids got removed, actually enough players complaining giving feedback about their favorite game mode breaking with every update. 3k+ users in the Conclave Discord (I just checked) are good and all, but can you beat the 10k+ from the former Raid School Bus? And the latter server is pretty much dead. So... evidently a big community isn't something Conclave has and for good reason.

My gripes with WF PvP aren't just balance, it's also mechanics (movement, why-the-#*!%-is-your-frame-always-in-the-middle-of-the-screen, ...) which I've seen done way better by other games. Those small things matter.a lot if you want to draw the right crowd. You can tell right away that WF wasn't made with PvP in mind, just by the way it plays. I tried playing it, but even finding good players to challenge yourself with is hard. Healthy competition is usually a good way to gauge a games PvP community. And Conclave doesn't seem to have any competition.

I'm all for PvP getting more popular. Maybe then it'll finally be temporarily removed to get reworked.

In terms of skill and competitiveness, I only know the PC community from a spectator's perspective, but conclave is highly competitive on PS4 and XB1.

Also, the difference between the player based of conclave and raids was probably caused by rewards, at least partly. I'd be interested in knowing how active raids would be if rather than being removed, they were made roughly as rewarding as conclave, and given the same of dev attention or lack thereof.

I think raids are an interesting point of comparison, because people had a lot of major issues with those too. They just mattered more, because of exclusive, highly useful, and tradable rewards. I'd estimate that conclave's success in comparison to how raids were would most strongly correlate with relative reward value. Giving conclave the same level of rewards would put in in a very similar state as raids though, which isn't too bad, but it would be many times better if it became balanced enough to better justify whatever rewards it could later give.

I know there are major fundamental differences between them, but it's hard to compare conclave to other PvP in Warframe. We currently have duels, and while I started p;aying just a little bit too late for the solar rail stuff, it doesn't seem to be that much of a better comparison than raids are, besides the fact that it had PvP. (I guess I could also mention how Destiny has success in its modes like some others have already.)

[zoffmode]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

highly competitive on PS4 and XB1

That's already a huge oxymoron.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

Just now, zoffmode said:

That's already a huge oxymoron.

How so?

[uxx0]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I'd be interested in knowing how active raids would be if rather than being removed, they were made roughly as rewarding as conclave, and given the same of dev attention or lack thereof.

I'm biased on that topic, since me and my clan were speedrunning raids. Only two or three other teams might've been able to catch up to us. It wasn't about the rewards, but rather about how far we could push the game. If you want stats, here you go. Teralyst was introduced on 12.10.2017, Guantalyst and Hydrolyst were introduced on 09.02.2018. Arcanes dropped from Tridolons starting 16.02.2018 and Trials were available until 01.03.2018. You can see a pretty sharp decline of raids completed as soon as news of Arcanes dropping from Tridolons came up. I'll leave interpreting the data up to you.

Interesting side note: Just counting fixes from patch notes from either game mode makes Conclave come out on top. There was an chart on this, too. If I find it again I'll edit it into this post. Judging by that Conclave received way more developer attention than raids. Yet raids were also way more popular.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 minutes ago, uxx0 said:

I'm biased on that topic, since me and my clan were speedrunning raids. Only two or three other teams might've been able to catch up to us. It wasn't about the rewards, but rather about how far we could push the game. If you want stats, here you go. Teralyst was introduced on 12.10.2017, Guantalyst and Hydrolyst were introduced on 09.02.2018. Arcanes dropped from Tridolons starting 16.02.2018 and Trials were available until 01.03.2018. You can see a pretty sharp decline of raids completed as soon as news of Arcanes dropping from Tridolons came up. I'll leave interpreting the data up to you.

Interesting side note: Just counting fixes from patch notes from either game mode makes Conclave come out on top. There was an chart on this, too. If I find it again I'll edit it into this post. Judging by that Conclave received way more developer attention than raids. Yet raids were also way more popular.

At most, there were 2-3 people working on conclave as a side-project and most of that work was just enabling/disabling certain variables and switching numbers around (unless you count lunaro as part of conclave, which I do not) It is pointless to argue about which one gets more dev attention because they BOTH got so little. I, for one, think raids should have stayed in the game until fixes could be added. It was a mistake to take them out and it harmed a number of warframe communities. Raids were fun to do with friends because we could fit more than 4 people together in a squad (same reason we do annihilation conclave lobbies, really) and we could mess around while trying out different strategies. DE for some reason doesn't recognize the value of raids or conclave. 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

On 2019-12-12 at 9:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

This is a nice attempt to quote mine me, but the very post you are both quoting itself does not have me reduce the literal entirety of Conclave

Yes. It does.

Edited December 14, 2019 by (XB1)The Repo Man151

[(XBOX)Chroma Prime]

On 2019-12-12 at 10:15 AM, --RV--Silverdk said:

Conclave can be great. 

It has a lot of issues, but with a few small changes it could be amazing.

The freedom of movement warframe gives makes for a crazy high skill ceiling that feels rewarding to master. I understand that it might be too much for some and it's in stark contrast to the PvE portion where there is little to no difficulty. 

I agree, Conclave is just too difficult for most players of warframe to get into.

[Hypernaut1]

I believe a Warframe Moba would work as PvP. 4 players and their mobs vs another 4 players and their mobs. It could be like a PvP interception or something. Warframes would have diminishing strength against each other, but full strength against mobs. Could work. I think certain Warframe abilities would have to be reigned in so they don't become the instant meta. 

And races.  AW races, K-drive races. Parkour races (no abilities). 

I would also like to see operator shootouts. Seem like it would be less spastic than regular conclave, but who knows. Players always break things and figure out unnatural ways to gain the advantage.

[Mavor]

This gets mused over every so often. Its pretty simple, PVP in Warframe is the way it is because most folks don't care about PVP in Warframe. Thats really the bottom line.

[Egonieser]

I don't think PvP has a place in looter shooter unless they isolate it entirely from the main game and make it instanced with separate PvP-Only frames and weapons which have had significant balance adjustments specifically for PvP.

The game is designed to make yourself as godlike as possible, that sort of approach doesn't fit in a competitive sector and makes for a very unfair and unbalanced gameplay.

[Teridax68]

21 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Yes. It does.

It doesn't, though, and you know this, which is why you deliberately truncated the part of the quote that explains why. No matter how you slice it, at the end of the day Conclave's movement is in no way elegant or even pleasant to most people, nor is its combat recognized as exceptionally skilful among PvP games despite the insular skillset it demands. Attacking anyone who says otherwise just loses the people you are trying to convince.

[(XBOX)Chroma Prime]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It doesn't, though, and you know this, which is why you deliberately truncated the part of the quote that explains why. No matter how you slice it, at the end of the day Conclave's movement is in no way elegant or even pleasant to most people, nor is its combat recognized as exceptionally skilful among PvP games despite the insular skillset it demands. Attacking anyone who says otherwise just loses the people you are trying to convince.

Are you trying to tell me that moving the mouse and understanding the concept of object permanence are insular skill sets? 

Edited December 15, 2019 by (XB1)Chroma Prime

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Chroma Prime said:

Are you trying to tell me that moving the mouse and understanding the concept of object permanence are insular skill sets? 

yeah, I would say that object permanence is an insular skillset. Insular to most life on earth!

[Aldain]

The only PvP that DE has made successful is people screaming at each others on the forums.