Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(PSN)OmegaXenon]

Personally I dislike pvp in every aspect.

 

-divides players

-emotional gambling

 

 

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I think more so the presence of practicality rather than the importance. I think the reason it isn't seen much is because people generally don't make an effort to gain that skill. I don't say this to criticize the average player either, because that is a lack of motivation to gain skill rather than a lack of ability to do so. They could probably do so if they wanted to.

"This build isn't picked because everyone is lazy" is a non-argument, not simply because it's a rather pretentious and unjustified claim to make, but because even if it were true, it would itself suggest that easier ways exist of achieving at worst similar results. As it stands, no evidence on paper or in practice suggests your proposed build is liable to stand out in effectiveness even when used properly.

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I even have moderate doubt that this would be average or lower accuracy for PC. Even if so, this is definitely high accuracy for PS4.

Then why isn't it seen, if it's not even that difficult to use?

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No. I actually managed to find an example. I was actually pretty surprised when I was reading this.

There's a video in there somewhere, which is actually my first Warframe video. You can judge the gameplay as harshly as you want. That would better show my point anyway. I didn't have a particularly special setup, having restricted ability use, and definitely a suboptimal build, considering my visible stats. Even then, my performance was described as something most players weren't able to do.

Your performance was described as "decent", and the only time you were marked as an exception was before the video, when you were bragging about running some high level of content with certain restrictions, and another countered with your claim having no general applicability. If this is the highest order of praise you've managed to garner...

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This was a common theme of arguments I'd have, especially in regards to prerework Oberon, so I was eventually convinced that I was much more skillful than I previously thought. That was further evidenced by how I played in comparison to other players in my squad, especially with such a supposedly bad frame.

It seems the actual common theme in the arguments you have is that you a) blockade discussion relying on generally-accepted truths by relying entirely on stated personal preference, b) divert discussion onto the subject of your self-perceived skill, with an eventual plug for your YouTube channel, and c) do not end up proving your point or credentials. It does not even matter whether you picked the worst frame in existence, a decent weapon alone should have allowed you to complete that Exterminate run much faster. In this particular case, we've effectively ceased to discuss PvP at all, as conversation has instead centered itself on all these fabulous, yet ultimately mediocre builds you've concocted.

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I'd actually rather test against lower level enemies. Level 100 armored heavies are roughly worst-case scenario for sorties and stuff. I know they can sometimes get a little higher than that, but that's a rare issue. Again, it has even become better since I recorded that clip too.

It typically happens when you do endurance runs or Arbitrations, though, and ultimately working with lower levels further slants the meta against you, as at that point Kitguns become far quicker as well. As with the above, nothing you are presenting here appears to have any general application, because easier and better builds exist.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Teridax68

[Itsmez]

11 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Have you ever tried to play conclave? On one hand, PvE and PvP balance are handled differently so no amount of PvP balance is going to kill PvE; on the other hand, PvE's lack of balance is completely out of hand, so a balance pass that shifts the focus towards rewarding skillful gameplay over mindlessly mashing E and 1234 while holding W and Left Click with 2 aoe weapons equipped would be much appreciated to bring back some semblant of challenge to warframe.

Yeah i tried it and never played again because it was boring

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

"This build isn't picked because everyone is lazy" is a non-argument, not simply because it's a rather pretentious and unjustified claim to make, but because even if it were true, it would itself suggest that easier ways exist of achieving at worst similar results. As it stands, no evidence on paper or in practice suggests your proposed build is liable to stand out in effectiveness even when used properly.

I wouldn't call it lazy. Everyone has limits to what they find personally worthwhile, and those limits tend to be perfectly reasonable.

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

"This build isn't picked because everyone is lazy" is a non-argument, not simply because it's a rather pretentious and unjustified claim to make, but because even if it were true, it would itself suggest that easier ways exist of achieving at worst similar results. As it stands, no evidence on paper or in practice suggests your proposed build is liable to stand out in effectiveness even when used properly.

I'm confused of how you interpreted what I said there.

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Your performance was described as "decent", and the only time you were marked as an exception was before the video, when you were bragging about running some high level of content with certain restrictions, and another countered with your claim having no general applicability. If this is the highest order of praise you've managed to garner...

It was also said that what I did was something that most people couldn't do, so being able to do so would put me above average. Also, this is just the first. You can imagine that it would be difficult to find threads like these, which is why found it using my first Warframe video. You can probably imagine how this escalated as I became a much better player, in all aspects, so the people who'd say this stuff eventually managed to persuade me.

39 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It seems the actual common theme in the arguments you have is that you a) blockade discussion relying on generally-accepted truths by relying entirely on stated personal preference, b) divert discussion onto the subject of your self-perceived skill, with an eventual plug for your YouTube channel, and c) do not end up proving your point or credentials. It does not even matter whether you picked the worst frame in existence, a decent weapon alone should have allowed you to complete that Exterminate run much faster. In this particular case, we've effectively ceased to discuss PvP at all, as conversation has instead centered itself on all these fabulous, yet ultimately mediocre builds you've concocted.

The conversation was lead this direction in a pretty cohesive way. Even now, with what you've said about the common themes in my arguments, just leads it away further. Either I respond to that, delving deeper into that can of worms, or I just ignore it. If you'd like to go back to a previous subject, feel free to mention one.

46 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It typically happens when you do endurance runs or Arbitrations, though, and ultimately working with lower levels further slants the meta against you, as at that point Kitguns become far quicker as well. As with the above, nothing you are presenting here appears to have any general application, because easier and better builds exist.

I generally can't do that anymore. You probably heard me mention my hands hurting with overuse of Telos Akbolto, and that's just when going through exterminate missions. There are some exceptions, which seems to depend on the day, the gear I use, ect. but I can usually only play for about an hour, and I'll only know that a day is an exception after that hour has passed.

In regards to the lower levels, do you have a specific kitgun, level range and faction in mind? I could probably agree with or accept some cases, but not so much with others. Specific examples and scenarios would allow us to actually compare.

[Teridax68]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I wouldn't call it lazy. Everyone has limits to what they find personally worthwhile, and those limits tend to be perfectly reasonable.

This sounds an awful lot like backpedalling given that your exact quote was: "people generally don't make an effort to gain that skill". As it stands, you are only confirming what I've said.

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It was also said that what I did was something that most people couldn't do, so being able to do so would put me above average.

According to a single user in a sea of 40+ T4 Survival showcases using any given frame, citing no specifics given that they had not actually seen your gameplay at the time.

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 Also, this is just the first. You can imagine that it would be difficult to find threads like these, which is why found it using my first Warframe video. You can probably imagine how this escalated as I became a much better player, in all aspects, so the people who'd say this stuff eventually managed to persuade me.

It seems the near-totality of the persuasion has come entirely from yourself. This can be healthy in appropriate amounts and context, but as it stands you've chosen to turn this thread into a soapbox for how allegedly great you are, which is... a little sad?

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The conversation was lead this direction in a pretty cohesive way. Even now, with what you've said about the common themes in my arguments, just leads it away further. Either I respond to that, delving deeper into that can of worms, or I just ignore it. If you'd like to go back to a previous subject, feel free to mention one.

The only reason this conversation was lead this direction was because you deliberately stopped defending Conclave, which was your point of entry, and instead chose to focus entirely on trying to convince the viewers of this thread of how great you think you are. As I mentioned in a post even farther back, not only have you failed to successfully argue that Conclave skills bleed over significantly to PvE, you're not even attempting to continue that point any further. In the end, I came here to say what I wanted to say, and won out because my points have stood solid. Your attempts to "persuade" me of your self-professed exceptional skill, besides failing to impress, have become completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

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I generally can't do that anymore. You probably heard me mention my hands hurting with overuse of Telos Akbolto, and that's just when going through exterminate missions. There are some exceptions, which seems to depend on the day, the gear I use, ect. but I can usually only play for about an hour, and I'll only know that a day is an exception after that hour has passed.

Why would RSI prevent you from testing out higher-level enemies in the Simulacrum? That sort of excuse makes no sense, particularly if we're talking about a more general context of players doing those missions.

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In regards to the lower levels, do you have a specific kitgun, level range and faction in mind? I could probably agree with or accept some cases, but not so much with others. Specific examples and scenarios would allow us to actually compare.

The typical high-crit Catchmoon Kitgun will outperform your Ogris at the level range you listed, just as one example. Higher levels is where your bug exploit would come into play, but at that point other, better alternatives remain, notably the Tigris Prime.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Teridax68

[Thrymm]

Interesting that a topic like this paddles forward into so many pages, especially when the entire first post can be answered with one word:

No.

But we can add more words, in the interest of clarity.  No, it won't ever be successful.  In order to balance it, it's virtually a different game, with entirely different stats and abilities because the weapons, mods, and abilities we're familiar with from PvE need to be neutered down to a palatable form for PvE.  For the record, I agree with this approach and understand why it was taken.  I also don't enjoy the gameplay this creates, I prefer the markedly different gameplay of the fully modded and developed "normal" modes.

Beyond that, I'm not interested in matchmaking wait times, the PvP community in general, the progression in general, the maps, or really anything else PvP related in Warframe.  I have the financial means to play whatever game I want(this isn't much of a brag, individual games aren't exactly automobile sized investments) and as such have access to the massive number of better PvP options available in the shooter genre.  Because of this, I frankly have no idea why a person would even want to invest their valuable time into Warframe PvP rather than one of these other games that rewards the player with a consistently better PvP experience.

Now, the reason all of this boils down into why Warframe PvP will likely never be successful is because I am not a special flower.  These days, the majority of us can play whatever we want, freemium isn't our only option.  The population size of Warframe PvP makes a clear statement as to how much of the game population isn't interested in this aspect, and the raw number of PvP titles available that are successful shows that this is largely a Warframe specific phenomenon--in gaming, this PvP is not the one we're looking for. 

For their part, the developers seems to see and recognize this as well.  They show an interest in growing and developing PvP well below their contributions to the fashion of pants legs, and when they did invest in it there was more backlash than support for their efforts.

[prodi1600]

if they put the effort, but they don't care anymore

[Falseliberty]

Man there are games that exclusively PvP esports like overwatch that can't even get PvP right. And god knows they try.

You think it's a switch or an easy task for DE to do? Brah.. please.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This sounds an awful lot like backpedalling given that your exact quote was: "people generally don't make an effort to gain that skill". As it stands, you are only confirming what I've said.

It's not. People generally don't make that effort, most likely because they don't see it as personally worthwhile.

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

According to a single user in a sea of 40+ T4 Survival showcases using any given frame, citing no specifics given that they had not actually seen your gameplay at the time.

 

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It seems the near-totality of the persuasion has come entirely from yourself. This can be healthy in appropriate amounts and context, but as it stands you've chosen to turn this thread into a soapbox for how allegedly great you are, which is... a little sad?

 

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The only reason this conversation was lead this direction was because you deliberately stopped defending Conclave, which was your point of entry, and instead chose to focus entirely on trying to convince the viewers of this thread of how great you think you are. As I mentioned in a post even farther back, not only have you failed to successfully argue that Conclave skills bleed over significantly to PvE, you're not even attempting to continue that point any further. In the end, I came here to say what I wanted to say, and won out because my points have stood solid. Your attempts to "persuade" me of your self-professed exceptional skill, besides failing to impress, have become completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

My level of skill is unfortunately relevant when I'm making a point about skill, unless I can use someone else as an example. I'll let it be your choice. We can either continue with this, or we can go back to the point where supposedly I deliberately stopped defending conclave.

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Why would RSI prevent you from testing out higher-level enemies in the Simulacrum? That sort of excuse makes no sense, particularly if we're talking about a more general context of players doing those missions.

It's more so about the reason to test that high. I could easily throw that in there, but I doubt it'll be useful to many. Sorties only occasionally go a little higher than 100, much less up to 150. Endurance is a good point, although such specific simulacrum testing would only be relevant if the player has a certain goal which it can show for. People would often be going for higher levels than the simulacrum can spawn.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

The typical high-crit Catchmoon Kitgun will outperform your Ogris at the level range you listed, just as one example. Higher levels is where your bug exploit would come into play, but at that point other, better alternatives remain, notably the Tigris Prime.

Assuming you mean level 100 armored enemies, you could probably show that with whatever specific parts and build you have in mind. 

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It's not. People generally don't make that effort, most likely because they don't see it as personally worthwhile.

So it is backpedalling, then. The simple truth here is that the playstyles you promote are suboptimal even when played to a theoretical degree of perfection that you haven't achieved, which is why people "generally don't make that effort".

4 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

My level of skill is unfortunately relevant when I'm making a point about skill, unless I can use someone else as an example. I'll let it be your choice. We can either continue with this, or we can go back to the point where supposedly I deliberately stopped defending conclave.

If you care to go back on-topic, by all means please do. As it stands, you're not making a point about skill, you're making a point about your skill, i.e. particular rather than general, and unsuccessfully at that.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It's more so about the reason to test that high. I could easily throw that in there, but I doubt it'll be useful to many. Sorties only occasionally go a little higher than 100, much less up to 150. Endurance is a good point, although such specific simulacrum testing would only be relevant if the player has a certain goal which it can show for. People would often be going for higher levels than the simulacrum can spawn.

Which gives all the more reason to test against high-level enemies. As it stands, it looks like you just chose to fudge the level ranges that would suit you best, and still failed to demonstrate the superiority of your build despite stacking as many factors as possible in your favor.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Assuming you mean level 100 armored enemies, you could probably show that with whatever specific parts and build you have in mind. 

It's just a really standard Kitgun build? Build one for maximum crit, then load up on crit mods, Magnum Force, and Radiation damage. Unlike your build, what I'm suggesting here really is the opposite of rare, so I question the reasons behind your doubt.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So it is backpedalling, then. The simple truth here is that the playstyles you promote are suboptimal even when played to a theoretical degree of perfection that you haven't achieved, which is why people "generally don't make that effort".

How is it backpedaling? I'm confused.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If you care to go back on-topic, by all means please do. As it stands, you're not making a point about skill, you're making a point about your skill, i.e. particular rather than general, and unsuccessfully at that.

OK. I'd still like to know what the point you mentioned was though, so I could then respond to that.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Which gives all the more reason to test against high-level enemies. As it stands, it looks like you just chose to fudge the level ranges that would suit you best, and still failed to demonstrate the superiority of your build despite stacking as many factors as possible in your favor.

Not really. That particular build makes no effort at armor mitigation, so EHP calcs would give all of the info necessary with relative ease. Also yes. I specify conditions to the degree that I do, because that's how I tend to pick my loadouts. I usually have 2 loadouts per faction, specifically for going beyond the level range where my main low level loadout starts lacking.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It's just a really standard Kitgun build? Build one for maximum crit, then load up on crit mods, Magnum Force, and Radiation damage. Unlike your build, what I'm suggesting here really is the opposite of rare, so I question the reasons behind your doubt.

So, like this? 

If so, it's probably a nice choice at lower levels, but it's still a little lacking at level 100 against armor. If it works as well as I think against armored enemies around level 60-80 though, it actually makes for a nice example of skill reward.

If not, you should link a video yourself.

[Teridax68]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

How is it backpedaling? I'm confused.

You are conspicuously trying to go much softer on your initial, condescending statement, and bending over backwards to try to rationalize it. 

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OK. I'd still like to know what the point you mentioned was though, so I could then respond to that.

It is rather strange that you would somehow forget the point you were arguing not that long ago, but sure: the point where we left off was that you claimed Conclave skills had some meaningful impact on PvE, which is patently not the case, but on top of that my broader and original point on this thread is that Conclave is too different a game relative to Warframe to possibly enjoy any great degree of success, particularly when considering the significant amount of work needed to translate anything from Warframe to Conclave.

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Not really. That particular build makes no effort at armor mitigation, so EHP calcs would give all of the info necessary with relative ease. Also yes. I specify conditions to the degree that I do, because that's how I tend to pick my loadouts. I usually have 2 loadouts per faction, specifically for going beyond the level range where my main low level loadout starts lacking.

... lack of armor mitigation would make your build suffer at higher levels just like I said, though? You're literally proving my point here.

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So, like this? 

If so, it's probably a nice choice at lower levels, but it's still a little lacking at level 100 against armor. If it works as well as I think against armored enemies around level 60-80 though, it actually makes for a nice example of skill reward.

If not, you should link a video yourself.

... did you even watch the video, though? The creator showcases their Catchmoon obliterating level 100 Corrupted Heavy Gunners, and specifically pointed out that the nerf only affected the weapon's range, not its damage, which can itself be fixed by attaching Lethal Momentum to the Exilus slot that was added with that same update. They even said that they'd be fine with more nerfs, because the Catchmoon is still the best Kitgun type, with Kitguns being notoriously among the most powerful weapons in the game. Speaking of questioning honesty, it looks like you deliberately searched for a video whose title suggested the nerf was worse than it is, all for the purpose of misleading conversation on the matter and avoiding the mountains of evidence in favor of the known dominance of Kitguns in the meta for months.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Teridax68

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

31 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You are conspicuously trying to go much softer on your initial, condescending statement, and bending over backwards to try to rationalize it.

I've been trying to clarify that I mean nothing bad towards such players when I say that. I wish I could explain better than I have, but I don't think I can.

51 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You are conspicuously trying to go much softer on your initial, condescending statement, and bending over backwards to try to rationalize it.

Well, we could compare it to arena mode and the PvP events. There are some major differences between those modes and conclave, but the main thing I see is that they're more rewarding than conclave. Conclave is more or less a combination of those 2 things, being like the PvP events, but with more PvE-like gear variety.

Also, it's hard to be sure how much work is necessary for conclave changes, or really anything. I don't think there's enough info about that to be a good point of discussion.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

... lack of armor mitigation would make your build suffer at higher levels just like I said, though? You're literally proving my point here.

Well, I wasn't saying that it would work well beyond the levels that I showed, so sure. Even in terms of gas builds, there are now better Ogris builds for that, plus there's still Kuva Ogris.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

... did you even watch the video, though? The creator showcases their Catchmoon obliterating level 100 Corrupted Heavy Gunners, and specifically pointed out that the nerf only affected the weapon's range, not its damage, which can itself be fixed by attaching Lethal Momentum to the Exilus slot that was added with that same update. They even said that they'd be fine with more nerfs, because the Catchmoon is still the best Kitgun type, with Kitguns being notoriously among the most powerful weapons in the game. Speaking of questioning honesty, it looks like you deliberately searched for a video whose title suggested the nerf was worse than it is, all for the purpose of misleading conversation on the matter and avoiding the mountains of evidence in favor of the known dominance of Kitguns in the meta for months.

If I counted correctly, he needed 35 shots to kill them in his last test, which is more than 3 magazines. That's quite a lot compared to my 3 Ogris shots.

[Teridax68]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I've been trying to clarify that I mean nothing bad towards such players when I say that. I wish I could explain better than I have, but I don't think I can.

Because no matter how much you attempt to sugarcoat it, your statement remains fundamentally insulting. Your entire attempted point here is to say players are too lazy to put effort into some higher standard of play, a statement that is as false as it is inaccurate in explaining why people don't go for your builds.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Well, we could compare it to arena mode and the PvP events. There are some major differences between those modes and conclave, but the main thing I see is that they're more rewarding than conclave. Conclave is more or less a combination of those 2 things, being like the PvP events, but with more PvE-like gear variety.

I'm guessing you were quoting the second paragraph, but the PvP events were just DE forcing people to play Conclave, which never goes down well, and the only thing tying Conclave to Arena mode is the map set. Thus, PvE modding is preserved in the latter, and Conclave continues to fail to relate to Warframe.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Also, it's hard to be sure how much work is necessary for conclave changes, or really anything. I don't think there's enough info about that to be a good point of discussion.

Conclave already demands weapons and warframes be totally rebalanced, even redesigned, in order to fit in Conclave. This is why Ember and Vauban still haven't been reinserted following their updates.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Well, I wasn't saying that it would work well beyond the levels that I showed, so sure. Even in terms of gas builds, there are now better Ogris builds for that, plus there's still Kuva Ogris.

Which builds? Also, how does that meaningfully alter the discussion?

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

If I counted correctly, he needed 35 shots to kill them in his last test, which is more than 3 magazines. That's quite a lot compared to my 3 Ogris shots.

I counted no such amount, and the comparison is doubly disingenuous considering the player deliberately fired inefficient shots from maximum range to showcase the damage falloff, and continuously despawned and respawned enemies, to say nothing of how silly it is to compare a Kitgun and Ogris on number of shots fired, as opposed to the much more obvious metric of time to kill, by which the Catchmoon visibly blew your Ogris out of the water when the content creator actually started killing those enemies for real (and this is without even mentioning how Corrupted Heavy Gunners have more than double the effective health of Corrupted Bombards at level 100). All the more reason to question your integrity in this debate here.

[ReaverKane]

On 2019-11-17 at 6:38 AM, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

So I’ve been around for dark sectors and obviously conclave . Dark sectors/Solar Rail conflicts were pretty well received by the community and people actually enjoyed participating in it back then, but with conclave it’s like 1-5% of the community even play conclave regularly, it’s truly unpopular. So I wanted to discuss so you think PVP in Warframe can ever be successful again in Warframe ? & if so how can it be fixed ? I personally feel like DE should have a team that specifically works on PVP 

It can be, the problem is the P2P hosting isn't conducive to a good pvp experience. It's barely any good for a PvE coop one.
We need proper hosting, either DE hosting or something like on Battlefield, with people hosting on dedicated servers they hire plus a few owned by DE.

 

[Mos-Eisley]

On 2019-11-16 at 10:38 PM, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

So I’ve been around for dark sectors and obviously conclave . Dark sectors/Solar Rail conflicts were pretty well received by the community and people actually enjoyed participating in it back then, but with conclave it’s like 1-5% of the community even play conclave regularly, it’s truly unpopular. So I wanted to discuss so you think PVP in Warframe can ever be successful again in Warframe ? & if so how can it be fixed ? I personally feel like DE should have a team that specifically works on PVP 

I'm sure it could be successful if DE devoted the necessary resources to ensuring its success. However a successful PvP in Warframe would not necessarily translate into financial success for DE.  

Personally, I would not want it to succeed. I also personally hope that they devote no company resources towards PvP, I just wouldn't want it in the game. There are a number of games out there that focus on PvP, and/or are built for nothing but PvP. If I wanted PvP, I would play something other than Warframe for my PvP "fix".

 

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Because no matter how much you attempt to sugarcoat it, your statement remains fundamentally insulting. Your entire attempted point here is to say players are too lazy to put effort into some higher standard of play, a statement that is as false as it is inaccurate in explaining why people don't go for your builds.

There isn't much more I cab say about that. I may have explained it poorly, missed some implications, or something. I'm reluctant to take one person's word for it so, that's that.

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm guessing you were quoting the second paragraph, but the PvP events were just DE forcing people to play Conclave, which never goes down well, and the only thing tying Conclave to Arena mode is the map set. Thus, PvE modding is preserved in the latter, and Conclave continues to fail to relate to Warframe.

They're the closest things to conclave in Warframe. I wish there were better points of comparison, but there aren't. Even if only for the rewards, people found both of those modes worth playing. I know that doesn't say much about enjoyment factor, but I could say similar about most things in Warframe, since people seem to play content proportionally to how much it rewards them.

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Conclave already demands weapons and warframes be totally rebalanced, even redesigned, in order to fit in Conclave. This is why Ember and Vauban still haven't been reinserted following their updates.

Only partly. There are mostly changes in numerical values, which is definitely rebalancing, but there's very little redesigning. In that case, it's mainly a matter of how difficult it is to change some number, which probably isn't very hard, if there's already a separate modifier for that value. For values without their own modifiers, a modifier would have to be added, which would add some degree of difficulty. Of course, this is just my guess, and more so applies to what's currently available in conclave, like Staticor.

33 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Conclave already demands weapons and warframes be totally rebalanced, even redesigned, in order to fit in Conclave. This is why Ember and Vauban still haven't been reinserted following their updates.

Particularly ones with Nightwatch Napalm, which I think I put in place of Firestorm on the build I showed. Also, I was wondering that from when you started mentioning higher levels, especially after giving my reasoning as to not doing so. I understand the point to building for higher levels, but it seems as if you think there's some importance to my Ogris being able to be used for that. If you do, I'd like to know why, and if you don't, why question my choice of level range?

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I counted no such amount, and the comparison is doubly disingenuous considering the player deliberately fired inefficient shots from maximum range to showcase the damage falloff, and continuously despawned and respawned enemies, to say nothing of how silly it is to compare a Kitgun and Ogris on number of shots fired, as opposed to the much more obvious metric of time to kill, by which the Catchmoon visibly blew your Ogris out of the water when the content creator actually started killing those enemies for real (and this is without even mentioning how Corrupted Heavy Gunners have more than double the effective health of Corrupted Bombards at level 100). All the more reason to question your integrity in this debate here.

4:02-4:30 I think this is the best example he shows against armored enemies, which is where I counted the 35 shots. (Actually seems like 34 this time, but still.) Of course, the important part is how that translates to kill time, but there's just no way that 3 Catchmoon mags with that build can be used faster than 3 Ogris shots with my build.

I did overlook the fact that they're corrupted though, so I guess I should show my Ogris against those.

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

There isn't much more I cab say about that. I may have explained it poorly, missed some implications, or something. I'm reluctant to take one person's word for it so, that's that.

This isn't about taking people on their word, though, this is about something you've said in text format, and the point you are trying to make through it. As pointed out above, the problem with your point is that it relies upon belittling the Warframe playerbase, and so without real justification.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

They're the closest things to conclave in Warframe. I wish there were better points of comparison, but there aren't. Even if only for the rewards, people found both of those modes worth playing. I know that doesn't say much about enjoyment factor, but I could say similar about most things in Warframe, since people seem to play content proportionally to how much it rewards them.

So, by your own admission, the "closest things to conclave in Warframe" have scant to do with Conclave, and only vaguely relate in terms of... rewards? What?

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Only partly. There are mostly changes in numerical values, which is definitely rebalancing, but there's very little redesigning.

This is patently untrue, and this point has already been argued at length with numerous examples given on this very thread.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

In that case, it's mainly a matter of how difficult it is to change some number, which probably isn't very hard, if there's already a separate modifier for that value. For values without their own modifiers, a modifier would have to be added, which would add some degree of difficulty. Of course, this is just my guess, and more so applies to what's currently available in conclave, like Staticor.

The very fact that only a portion of weapons are available in Conclave should itself be an indicator that translating weapons to the format is not quite as easy as you're imagining here.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Particularly ones with Nightwatch Napalm, which I think I put in place of Firestorm on the build I showed. Also, I was wondering that from when you started mentioning higher levels, especially after giving my reasoning as to not doing so. I understand the point to building for higher levels, but it seems as if you think there's some importance to my Ogris being able to be used for that. If you do, I'd like to know why, and if you don't, why question my choice of level range?

I've already made myself clear on the matter, though, that high levels act as proper stress tests for these builds with regards to Arbitrations and similar runs that incur armored enemies above level 100. Beyond that, I see no reason why one would not simply choose whichever highest range your MR allows, as the choice of level 100 is arbitrary, and makes even less sense given that your Ogris build becomes even more inefficient at lower levels due to its slowness. In either case, though, no amount of rebuilding is going to change the fact that your choice of weapon is patently suboptimal.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

4:02-4:30 I think this is the best example he shows against armored enemies, which is where I counted the 35 shots. (Actually seems like 34 this time, but still.) Of course, the important part is how that translates to kill time, but there's just no way that 3 Catchmoon mags with that build can be used faster than 3 Ogris shots with my build.

... there is, as shown by the video? They managed to shred through as many enemies as you did in the same amount of time, except as established before, Corrupted Heavy Gunners have more than double the EHP of the enemies you showcased in your own video at those same level ranges. Your build is several times too slow, to say nothing of how ammo-hungry the Ogris itself is when kitguns have no such issue.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I did overlook the fact that they're corrupted though, so I guess I should show my Ogris against those.

Yes, you should. The problem here is that you really did try to bring every condition in your favor to make your pet build look good, and so in an incredibly artificial setting (i.e. a group of high-level enemies perfectly clumped up together, the literal best-case scenario to demonstrate it), yet still failed to kill enemies in sufficiently good time for your build to be considered at all good. At this point this isn't even skill we're talking about, so much as just your theorycrafting, and that too has not proven exceptional.

[Sir-Swerving]

Warframe just doesn't work as an arena game, The pvp would much be better suited to modes where the objective isn't just to kill the other players the most but accomplish another objective with the players being an obstacle, An example being like the assault gamemode in the unreal tournament games, Add a mix of pve styled objectives to pvp modes, Maybe even competitive pve modes where players compete in a grineer killing competition, Competitive index where the players collect points from the mooks and each-other.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Sir-Swerving

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This isn't about taking people on their word, though, this is about something you've said in text format, and the point you are trying to make through it. As pointed out above, the problem with your point is that it relies upon belittling the Warframe playerbase, and so without real justification.

It is, because this is the only indication I've had of that being insulting. It's best to not continue with this here, but I will try to figure it out with other people.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

This isn't about taking people on their word, though, this is about something you've said in text format, and the point you are trying to make through it. As pointed out above, the problem with your point is that it relies upon belittling the Warframe playerbase, and so without real justification.

The rewards are the most notable way they differ, in my opinion on. Their gameplay is pretty similar with arena having more gear choices and AI enemies, which are more individually threatening. The conclave events were basically light versions of conclave.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is patently untrue, and this point has already been argued at length with numerous examples given on this very thread.

I think 12/31 warframes in conclave have functional changes to their abilities from PvE. It'd take a while for me to check all of those abilities and passives, so there's probably a slight correction to be made. All of remaining ones woukd just be numerical changes though, and there are probably less changes for weapons.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The very fact that only a portion of weapons are available in Conclave should itself be an indicator that translating weapons to the format is not quite as easy as you're imagining here.

As I said, it was just a guess. There's always the whole spaghetti code thing, but it's hard to imagine anything else being in the way.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I've already made myself clear on the matter, though, that high levels act as proper stress tests for these builds with regards to Arbitrations and similar runs that incur armored enemies above level 100. Beyond that, I see no reason why one would not simply choose whichever highest range your MR allows, as the choice of level 100 is arbitrary, and makes even less sense given that your Ogris build becomes even more inefficient at lower levels due to its slowness. In either case, though, no amount of rebuilding is going to change the fact that your choice of weapon is patently suboptimal.

My choice of level 100 was to test with the highest leveled content that I planned to use Ogris against that faction. As levels get higher, armor mitigation becomes more important in comparison to raw DPS. Level 100 armored enemies was roughly worst-case scenario of scenarios I planned to put myself in.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... there is, as shown by the video? They managed to shred through as many enemies as you did in the same amount of time, except as established before, Corrupted Heavy Gunners have more than double the EHP of the enemies you showcased in your own video at those same level ranges. Your build is several times too slow, to say nothing of how ammo-hungry the Ogris itself is when kitguns have no such issue.

Looks like 25 seconds on the Catchmoon video, and 11 seconds on the Ogris video. 4:02-4:27 and 0:22-0:33, respectively. Also, I don't know the stats on ammo drop rates, but...

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, you should. The problem here is that you really did try to bring every condition in your favor to make your pet build look good, and so in an incredibly artificial setting (i.e. a group of high-level enemies perfectly clumped up together, the literal best-case scenario to demonstrate it), yet still failed to kill enemies in sufficiently good time for your build to be considered at all good. At this point this isn't even skill we're talking about, so much as just your theorycrafting, and that too has not proven exceptional.

My ammo does keep refilling here, except at the end, where there is a visible special ammo to the left.

I was actually too lazy to make my build look as good as it could. I used an old video, where it was weaker. Now with a new video, the extra killing power offsets the increased enemy EHP. It would look even better too if I was using it in a sortie, since almost every enemy would be weaker. Let's also not forget that the Catchmoon in the video is constantly hitting headshots against paused enemies to activate Pax Seeker. It would look worse in any situation with moving enemies, unless the user had the skill to mitigate that.

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It is, because this is the only indication I've had of that being insulting. It's best to not continue with this here, but I will try to figure it out with other people.

I am the literal only person you are conversing with on this thread. Again, this is a question of the point you are making, rather than one of subjective interpretation of wording or whatnot, yet even so there is a 100% consensus rate on the matter.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

The rewards are the most notable way they differ, in my opinion on. Their gameplay is pretty similar with arena having more gear choices and AI enemies, which are more individually threatening. The conclave events were basically light versions of conclave.

But how are they in any way similar? The enemies are nothing like Tenno, nor do they parkour or encourage parkour or aiming in the same manner. The balance and design is entirely PvE, which is why you have special comps like Larva Nidus for Rathuum or Fatal Teleport Ash for Index. You are quite simply making stuff up here.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I think 12/31 warframes in conclave have functional changes to their abilities from PvE. It'd take a while for me to check all of those abilities and passives, so there's probably a slight correction to be made. All of remaining ones woukd just be numerical changes though, and there are probably less changes for weapons.

That's still over 38% of warframes requiring a redesign just to fit in Conclave, and I suspect even that is a deliberate underestimation on your part, given the amount of long-duration hard CC in warframe kits. The very existence of such is itself a simple way of demonstrating how PvE and PvP design are fundamentally different.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

As I said, it was just a guess. There's always the whole spaghetti code thing, but it's hard to imagine anything else being in the way.

That doesn't matter, though, in the end you are still trying to downplay the difficulty of a task that is clearly more difficult than you are attempting to frame it. It therefore stands to reason that your mental model of how Conclave is designed in relation to Warframe is incorrect, much like your modelization of the game's overall balance and implementation.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

My choice of level 100 was to test with the highest leveled content that I planned to use Ogris against that faction. As levels get higher, armor mitigation becomes more important in comparison to raw DPS. Level 100 armored enemies was roughly worst-case scenario of scenarios I planned to put myself in.

So, in effect, your choice was entirely subjective, and based on personal preference. Why should I buy your excuses, then, when your motivation could just as easily be to try to make your build look better than it actually is?

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Looks like 25 seconds on the Catchmoon video, and 11 seconds on the Ogris video. 4:02-4:27 and 0:22-0:33, respectively.

You conveniently forgot to mention that the content creator spawned far more enemies, and that they killed an equivalent number to yours in approximately 10 seconds. At this point, the honesty here isn't even questionable, it's just not there.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Also, I don't know the stats on ammo drop rates, but...

My ammo does keep refilling here, except at the end, where there is a visible special ammo to the left.

You had to expend nearly 20% of your total ammo pool for that one encounter, and still took more time than with the kitgun shown. At this point, you are repeatedly proving to substitute red herring statistics instead of the actual appropriate metrics for the situation at hand.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I was actually too lazy to make my build look as good as it could. I used an old video, where it was weaker. Now with a new video, the extra killing power offsets the increased enemy EHP.

It visibly doesn't, your build is still horribly inefficient even when all the conditions are united in its favor.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It would look even better too if I was using it in a sortie, since almost every enemy would be weaker.

And also spread out. Again, that is a situation where kitguns perform far better, to say nothing of actually good primaries like the Tigris Prime, Ignis Wraith, and so on.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Let's also not forget that the Catchmoon in the video is constantly hitting headshots against paused enemies to activate Pax Seeker. It would look worse in any situation with moving enemies, unless the user had the skill to mitigate that.

Have you actually used the Catchmoon? It is notoriously very easy to get headshots with it. This isn't me bragging, by the way; one only needs to aim in the general direction of the head for it to work. The video itself should have been an indicator, with the projectile's generous hitbox.

[xBloodySin]

In theory? Sure. Warframe could be anything it wants, in theory. Forza Warframe? Of course. Pro Evolution Warframe? Go for it. Civiliframe? Just waiting to be made.

In practice? It would be a waste of resources, requiring pretty much a whole extra game to be made for the sake of few people. Warframe doesn't need PvP in any shape or form.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I am the literal only person you are conversing with on this thread. Again, this is a question of the point you are making, rather than one of subjective interpretation of wording or whatnot, yet even so there is a 100% consensus rate on the matter.

You're telling me that I'm being insulting when I don't think I am, and you seem to be doing so to point it out as a flaw in my argument. Given the fact that it's both relevant to your point and that this is a personal issue for me, the chances of you being right here are high enough for me to take seriously.

I can understand that you probably really do believe that what I said was insulting to most of the community, but your claim alone isn't enough to convince me that it actually is insulting, so this won't go anywhere between just the 2 of us. That's why I don't think we should talk about it here anymore. If I do find that you seem to be right, I will apologize.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

But how are they in any way similar? The enemies are nothing like Tenno, nor do they parkour or encourage parkour or aiming in the same manner. The balance and design is entirely PvE, which is why you have special comps like Larva Nidus for Rathuum or Fatal Teleport Ash for Index. You are quite simply making stuff up here.

 

I partly mentioned those differences already. Not as specifically, but you could probably guess that, for example. there are more potent setups as a result of increased gear choices. Partly because of that, abilities are less potent in conclave. The similarities are everything else though, which can be showed with many abilities. For example, with Teleport, they're generally used to close in on enemies for a melee attack. In arena, it's a finisher, which people usually augment to perform automatically, while in conclave you use a normal melee attack, which in conclave is probably preferable, although it takes more skill. You also get much more targeting freedom in conclave, not being limited to teleporting to a enemies, allies, ect., which means you generally need to be more mindful if where you aim, but you can do more with it.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

That's still over 38% of warframes requiring a redesign just to fit in Conclave, and I suspect even that is a deliberate underestimation on your part, given the amount of long-duration hard CC in warframe kits. The very existence of such is itself a simple way of demonstrating how PvE and PvP design are fundamentally different.

 

If I've underestimated, I'm open to correction. Otherwise, it shows that most warframes still only need changes in scale.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I am the literal only person you are conversing with on this thread. Again, this is a question of the point you are making, rather than one of subjective interpretation of wording or whatnot, yet even so there is a 100% consensus rate on the matter.

If it's so clear, can't you explain it? I don't believe that anyone who hasn't worked on the game would know, so all we both can do is guess, but if you can be so sure, then there has to be some common knowledge that I'm not accounting for. Right? If so, what is it?

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So, in effect, your choice was entirely subjective, and based on personal preference. Why should I buy your excuses, then, when your motivation could just as easily be to try to make your build look better than it actually is?

It's based on the purpose of the build. How about this? I'm MR23, so I think the highest level enemies I can spawn in the simulacrum is 145. What point do you think I'll be unable to prove against enemies at that level?

Quoting has stopped working for me, so...

I think we both spawned 8 enemies. I'd like to know where you see otherwise.

My total ammo pool is 25. I used 3 ammo for each test, with 1 exception where I used 4, so it's 12-16%. Regardless of that, it just kept on getting replenished fully anyway, which us exactly what ammo efficiency is all about. It seems more efficient in every way. We'll have to settle the point about enemies being spread put when there's a good sortie to show it in, and when I have time to do so.

Also, I have used it, but I wouldn't try to determine overall ease based on that. I never tested it in a way where I could probably compare the ease of headshots to other weapons, so all I really know is how easy it is for me.

[Teridax68]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

You're telling me that I'm being insulting when I don't think I am, and you seem to be doing so to point it out as a flaw in my argument. Given the fact that it's both relevant to your point and that this is a personal issue for me, the chances of you being right here are high enough for me to take seriously.

This is a false accusation, given that I pointed out your argument was insulting in addition to being wrong. You can claim not to think you've being disparaging, but given that disparagement is at the very heart of the argument you attempted to make, your feelings on the matter would not be relevant even if they were true.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I can understand that you probably really do believe that what I said was insulting to most of the community, but your claim alone isn't enough to convince me that it actually is insulting, so this won't go anywhere between just the 2 of us. That's why I don't think we should talk about it here anymore. If I do find that you seem to be right, I will apologize.

That's a rather strange standard to set, given that your stance in this argument so far has been to concede nothing, even when literally proven wrong. The veracity of what is said in this debate does not hinge upon your subjective assessment, particularly when you are making a conspicuous effort to try to save face at the expense of the integrity of this discussion. This is demonstrated here, where your central point is that players are either incapable or unwilling to make an effort to play to some optimal standard of play, despite you failing to substantiate your point and ample evidence to the contrary.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I partly mentioned those differences already. Not as specifically, but you could probably guess that, for example. there are more potent setups as a result of increased gear choices. Partly because of that, abilities are less potent in conclave. The similarities are everything else though, which can be showed with many abilities. For example, with Teleport, they're generally used to close in on enemies for a melee attack. In arena, it's a finisher, which people usually augment to perform automatically, while in conclave you use a normal melee attack, which in conclave is probably preferable, although it takes more skill. You also get much more targeting freedom in conclave, not being limited to teleporting to a enemies, allies, ect., which means you generally need to be more mindful if where you aim, but you can do more with it.

So, in effect, the very example you picked plays completely differently from PvE to Conclave. How exactly do you expect to convince anyone of the similarities then?

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

If I've underestimated, I'm open to correction. Otherwise, it shows that most warframes still only need changes in scale.

But you did underestimate, and still did not open yourself to correction. The very fact that Conclave needs its own status effect as a substitute to most hard CC, which you did not even bring up, is more evidence of this.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

If it's so clear, can't you explain it? I don't believe that anyone who hasn't worked on the game would know, so all we both can do is guess, but if you can be so sure, then there has to be some common knowledge that I'm not accounting for. Right? If so, what is it?

This is a rather interesting bunch of nonsense, because I never stated the clarity of situation, nor did I make any arguments dependent upon it. My point is simply that, whatever the reason, it is clearly more difficult to translate stuff to Conclave than you are making it out to be. Asking for me to feign expertise in the game's coding or internal design just to produce some bogus explanation is therefore as irrelevant as it is misleading. I'd much rather accept ignorance on the matter than try to formulate some bogus "explanation" that fails to adequately explain anything, particularly when it leads to trivializing what is clearly a larger amount of work than you are assuming.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It's based on the purpose of the build. How about this? I'm MR23, so I think the highest level enemies I can spawn in the simulacrum is 145. What point do you think I'll be unable to prove against enemies at that level?

You wouldn't be able to showcase your build at levels higher than that, but at least you would have tried at the highest level available to you, which is pointedly less arbitrary than just selecting the level range that makes your build look nicest.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Quoting has stopped working for me, so...

I think we both spawned 8 enemies. I'd like to know where you see otherwise.

My total ammo pool is 25. I used 3 ammo for each test, with 1 exception where I used 4, so it's 12-16%. Regardless of that, it just kept on getting replenished fully anyway, which us exactly what ammo efficiency is all about. It seems more efficient in every way. We'll have to settle the point about enemies being spread put when there's a good sortie to show it in, and when I have time to do so.

16% is still a massive portion of your ammo pool, and your ammo did not refill consistently. This is, again, in a best-case scenario where all of your enemies are clumped up and largely immobile. The fact that you refuse to pop into any Sortie just to show your build here is itself damning enough, as it is clear you yourself know your build doesn't hold up to practice unless you specifically force a highly specific, favorable situation.

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Also, I have used it, but I wouldn't try to determine overall ease based on that. I never tested it in a way where I could probably compare the ease of headshots to other weapons, so all I really know is how easy it is for me.

The content creator themself mentions how easy it is to headshot with it. Your doubt here is itself dubious, and of questionable good faith.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

On 2019-12-21 at 12:07 AM, (PS4)OmegaXenon said:

-emotional gambling

What do you mean by this?