Loki vs. Powercreep

[Blort]

I love him, he's my main, but I have some thoughts on bringing closer to the current power level of newer frames.

Passive:  Double jump becomes a short teleport scaled with power range and a passive energy regen

Decoy: Create a specter clone of the player character, on a timer and taunts enemies until destroyed or times out.  Player Character turns invisible for duration

Invisibility Deceive: you are disguised as the last enemy you killed.  Illusion holds until you or a pet attacks an enemy in anyway and drains energy to maintain equilibrium with passive regen.  affects cameras but not lasers

Switch teleport and radial disarm stay the same

 

thoughts on this or other frames that might need a little boost?

[kapn655321]

Decoy should have a waning level of damage reduction over it's duration so it doesn't get insta-gibbed above level 50.

As for Loki looking like enemies...
TF2 Spy Check, anyone?
Hope you love getting shot in the face by Arca Plasmor all day, 'cause you will.

Edited February 5, 2020 by kapn655321

[gluih]

I don't think buffing loki is a good idea. He does what you would want him to do very well.

With loki and a few other frames, the problem isn't, that they are too weak, it's that the situations, where you need them don't come up often.

[AlphaPHENIX]

31 minutes ago, Blort said:

Illusion holds until you or a pet attacks

Aaaaaaaaaaand, you messed up.

[AlphaPHENIX]

17 minutes ago, gluih said:

I don't think buffing loki is a good idea.

Looks like a nerf to me.
Again.

35 minutes ago, Blort said:

Illusion holds until you or a pet attacks

Companions attack all the time; this will make Loki's invisibility almost as bad as Shade's. shudder 

No, just no.

[Asphyxxia]

Loki only needs a slight buff to his Decoy for it to be more useful than switch teleporting to or distracting enemies for 0.5 seconds.

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, Blort said:

Passive:  Double jump becomes a short teleport scaled with power range and a passive energy regen

This really does not sound like it would be very useful when you think about it. People double jump all the time and being teleported halfway across a map or straight into a wall on the other side of the room you wanted to stay on sounds more annoying than beneficial. Passive also means that it shouldn't be affected by mods.

Passive energy regen deosn't really make sense either, as Limbo already has that.

1 hour ago, Blort said:

Create a specter clone of the player character, on a timer and taunts enemies until destroyed or times out.  Player Character turns invisible for duration

If you remove the "until destroyed" part then this is the beginning of a decent idea. The whole problem with Loki's current Decoy is that it dies instantly when you spawn it in any mission above level 40. It's also not great at drawing enemy attention either. If there were a multitude of clones that taunt enemies while also providing you a sneak attack damage bonus, since you'd be invisble while the clones are drawing attention, then it would be great.

1 hour ago, Blort said:

Invisibility Deceive: you are disguised as the last enemy you killed.  Illusion holds until you or a pet attacks an enemy in anyway

This is a huge nerf to Loki's survivability and really does not sound useful at all. This power belongs more in a stealthy-Hitman style game than Warframe, where sneaking around is part of the game design. 90% of the time you will be shooting at enemies in Warframe and its part of the games fun.

This is just a plain bad idea through and through.

1 hour ago, Blort said:

Switch teleport and radial disarm stay the same

Radial Disarm I agree, but switch teleport is very niche and kind of unnecessary since the introduction of Parkour 2.0. At best the most it can be used for now are very certain situations like teleporting a drone a little further down its path in POE, but IMO that simply is not enough justification to keep it around.

Edited February 5, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[taiiat]

i don't think having a Passive that is affected by Ability Mods is a good idea. regardless of what the Passive does.

i'd possibly go along with Decoy being a closer match of the actual Player, but still not mainly focused on Damage. but taking your Equipped Weapons? sure. i'm open to then letting Decoy do a bit of relevant Damage, but not a lot, the purpose of it isn't to have your own personal Turret. a tiny fraction of your own Damage plus say.... has a moderate Chance to Stagger Enemies as it attacks them?

[AlphaPHENIX]

@Blort , let's say we do go with your idea of merging Decoy and Invisibility, then end up with a free slot for a new second ability.

First off, and I am sorry for sounding rude, but your ''Deceive'' idea is pointless. Practically an invisibility, except it breaks when you or your pet attacks, a worse invisibility. What's more is that since casting Decoy makes you invisible now too, you end up with 2 ''make yourself invisible'' abilities. We can do far better.

How about something which gives you an AI assisst when hacking consoles?
Picture it salvation, you need to hack a console fast but forgot your ciphers or just don't feel like using them, you activate your 2nd ability and start hacking:

• It's the Grineer? - A second ''lock-pick'' (I honestly don't know what to call that thing) appears and hacks one half for you, while you get the other half.
• No, the Corpus, definitely the Corpus. - Same thing, game starts solving the puzzle along with you.

As a bonus, if a grineer ''pin'' or corpus hexagon are already in the right position, you can not screw them up with this ability active.

[AlphaPHENIX]

11 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

switch teleport is very niche and kind of unnecessary since the introduction of Parkour 2.0. At best the most it can be used for now are very certain situations like teleporting a drone a little further down its path in POE, but IMO that simply is not enough justification to keep it around.

Safeguard Switching a Savior Decoy is a thing I do with this frame, because any other playstyle doesn't feel exciting enough.
Thus, I dissagree, unless you replace it with something more...fun, or at least unique.

Also, it isn't made unnecessary by Parkour 2.0 and just because people don't like getting Switch Teleported, doesn't mean it can only be used to troll them. (R.I.P. Stasis)

[gluih]

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Looks like a nerf to me.
Again.

?

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Safeguard Switching a Savior Decoy is a thing I do with this frame, because any other playstyle doesn't feel exciting enough.
Thus, I dissagree, unless you replace it with something more...fun, or at least unique.

Like I said; it has a very niche use. Savior Decoy is a niche augment that not many people use since it requires both a mod slot and the need to consistently find a hidden place every sixty seconds for your decoy so it does not get targeted by enemies and killed instantly.

Safeguard Switch also is not used very often as Loki is always invisible anyway and there are better frames out there for that kind of survivability.

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

it isn't made unnecessary by Parkour 2.0

The best use before Parkour was that it could be used to reach places that you normally would never be able to reach with other frames, or at least were not very easy to reach. Like for example some of the Void secret rooms like the one in that massive hall that previously required you to do backflip wall-runs between two pillars to originally get up there, unless you used Loki. Its usefullness was heavily downgraded when Parkour 2.0 was introduced and the old stamina bar was removed.

So yea it basically was made obsolete by Parkour 2.0.

Edited February 5, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[NinjaZeku]

2 hours ago, gluih said:

?

No more decently-long invisibility during which you're free to do whatever.

If that's not a nerf (that goes completely against what Loki is supposed to be), then I'm a Kuaka.

 

Also I don't quite get why you'd want to keep Switch Teleport, when you already have the Double Jump -> Teleport thing.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

6 hours ago, Blort said:

thoughts on other frames that might need a little boost?

To answer the question, Ash needs a revisit. The 1st ability is only good with its augment. Augments should be used as an option and not coz the ability on its own is bad, the 2nd ability could benefit by having better cc and even through ppl say that his invisible is too short I have no issue with it, the 3rd ability has potential to be so much better just of the concept of teleportation alone and the 4th ability is terrible when it comes to activation speed, it`s too slow and other ppl can take your kills (even in low levels) and even more things that make it bad.

Overall Ash is a contradiction to what DE wants ppl to do in this game.... PLAY AS A TEAM, that's why he needs to be looked at again Here is a post I put up on how to improve Ash`s abilities, tell me what you think.

Also since Ash is similar to Loki, what do you think of Ash?

Edited February 5, 2020 by (PS4)Vexx757

[AlphaPHENIX]

7 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Like I said; it has a very niche use. Savior Decoy is a niche augment that not many people use since it requires both a mod slot and the need to consistently find a hidden place every sixty seconds for your decoy so it does not get targeted by enemies and killed instantly.

Safeguard Switch also is not used very often as Loki is always invisible anyway and there are better frames out there for that kind of survivability.

And that's why I use them together, because Safegua- wait.
''Safeguard Switch also is not used very often as Loki is always invisible anyway and there are better frames out there for that kind of survivability.''
Are you under the impression that the augment makes Loki invulnerable when teleporting? Incorrect, it only makes the target invulnerable (if said target is an ally [that includes decoy]).

7 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The best use before Parkour was that it could be used to reach places that you normally would never be able to reach with other frames, or at least were not very easy to reach. Like for example some of the Void secret rooms like the one in that massive hall that previously required you to do backflip wall-runs between two pillars to originally get up there, unless you used Loki. Its usefullness was heavily downgraded when Parkour 2.0 was introduced and the old stamina bar was removed.

So yea it basically was made obsolete by Parkour 2.0.

Let me guess, you also think that every other movement type ability is obsolete now? Ok, let me get the list:

Spoiler

Ash - Teleport
Atlas - Landslide
Exclaibur - Slash Dash
Garuda - Dread Mirror
Gauss - Mach Rush (I am not counting Redline because it's a buff)
Grendel - Pul- Ok ya, no.
Hydroid - Tidal Surge
Loki - Switch Teleport
Nezha - Blazing Chakram
Nova - Worm Hole
Revenant - Reave
Rhino - Charge
Titania - Razorwing
Valkyr - Swing Line and Hysterical Assault Hysteria
Vauban - Bounce 0.5
Wisp - Will O Wisp and Breach Surge (the teleportation part)
Wukonk - Cloud Walker
Zephyr - Tail Wind

Honourable mentions: Nezha and Mirage's passives
Bonus: That teleportation augment for Ivara's Navigator that we never got...

Those^ are all obsolete to you?

[AlphaPHENIX]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

2nd ability could benefit by having better cc and even through ppl say that his invisible is too short I have no issue with it

As a pearson who builds for less duration on purpose, because Smoke Screen is not recastable, I support this message.

Speaking of giving it better cc cough cough

Give me one good reason why this^ and many others are not usable in PvE._{(being only aquirable in Conclave isn't a good reason)}

[gluih]

8 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

No more decently-long invisibility during which you're free to do whatever.

If that's not a nerf (that goes completely against what Loki is supposed to be), then I'm a Kuaka.

 

Also I don't quite get why you'd want to keep Switch Teleport, when you already have the Double Jump -> Teleport thing.

No, I don't think, that you need to touch Loki at all. At least for now, there are other frames and issues to look at.

[Lone_Dude]

Hmmm, are you sharing this amazing idea here because Brozime said that Loki is not top tier, or is it just a coincidence?

Passive. Double-jump teleport is a horrible idea. Replacing a roll with it would make more sense, but still wouldn't work unless tweaked to the point where it's a whole new ability packed as a passive. Both double jumps and rolls are used to build up momentum and for avoiding damage. Replacing any of these 2 with a weird gimmick is a bad idea.

Decoy. So, if the decoy gets bottom texted I'll lose invisibility? Should I always have the Safeguard augment in my build just for that? Lmfao Or will it keep going meaning the whole synergy stuff is nullified?

Shpee. Replacing a perfectly working invisibility with a shade-like rip off of spy kit from TF2 doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Especially when a damn pet can mess it up. It drains energy too, oh gawd. It's the "sacrificial lamb" of your rework, huh, aka "LOOK I  ADDED SOME BAD STUFF LIKE ENERGY DRAIN I CAN BALANCE". Nice.

"Switch teleport is fine" - I've played as Loki for over 400 hours, it's not. Unless you slap the augment on it, it's pretty much useless.

Loki needs some tweaks here and there but not something like this mess.

[NinjaZeku]

11 hours ago, gluih said:

No, I don't think, that you need to touch Loki at all. At least for now, there are other frames and issues to look at.

I'm confused why you quoted me for that response, I didn't say anything about being in favor of changing Loki.

... mind you, I am :P

Loki could definitely stand to get a boost or two, e.g. Decoy needs to be made immortal or something already
and Switch Teleport is not really all that grand anymore what with the default level of mobility we have nowadays.

[TheGodofWiFi]

15 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Are you under the impression that the augment makes Loki invulnerable when teleporting? Incorrect

My mistake I misremembered the augment. However, my point about how there are better frames for that kind of survivability still stands in the context of making others invulnerable. Limbo for instance can just cast an immortal AOE or single taret immortal. Much better option for getting people out of tight spots. Loki isn't the kind of frame that can really focus on a Safeguard Switch build as a viable endgame build when compared to his other builds. And people generally do not like being teleported either.

15 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Let me guess, you also think that every other movement type ability is obsolete now?

No. Just Loki's and certain others because they aren't useful when compared to other abilties and/or Parkour 2.0. Hasty generalisation is a fallacy you know. Don't use this kind of lazy question in defence of an ability you like, but isn't actually that good.

15 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Ash - Teleport
Atlas - Landslide
Exclaibur - Slash Dash
Garuda - Dread Mirror

Hydroid - Tidal Surge
Loki - Switch Teleport
Nezha - Blazing Chakram

Revenant - Reave
Rhino - Charge

Valkyr - Swing Line and Hysterical Assault Hysteria
Vauban - Bounce 0.5
Wisp - Will O Wisp and Breach Surge (the teleportation part)

All of the above are obsolete in terms of using the ability to traverse places because of Parkour 2.0 yes. You know exactly how useless some of these abilities are so you're being dishonest. No one is going to say abilities like Slash Dash or Land Slide are viable methods of general traversal. Difference is that some of them still come with in-built benefits that make them worth using still.

Things like Mach Rush, Wormhole, Cloud Walker, Razorwing and Tail Wind offer different benefits that give them a massive edge, such as distance, energy cost, mechanically superior in terms of time, versatility and ease of use, and finally distance.

Comparing something like Loki's teleport to Wukong's Cloud Walker is a completely hollow defence/argument for obvious reasons (Wukong can fly in any direction instantly at the speed of Mach Rush and it does not require a target to work).

Saying I must think all movement abilities are useless, is far-reaching and doesn't give off the impression of a good counter-argument.

Edited February 6, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[TheGodofWiFi]

11 hours ago, gluih said:

No, I don't think, that you need to touch Loki at all. At least for now, there are other frames and issues to look at.

I agree. Two of Loki's abilities could do with a looking at, but he still functions really well in the game content thanks to Invisibility and Radial Disarm. Other frames definitely need more attention before he does, such as Hydroid.

[TheGodofWiFi]

48 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Loki could definitely stand to get a boost or two, e.g. Decoy needs to be made immortal or something already
and Switch Teleport is not really all that grand anymore what with the default level of mobility we have nowadays.

I honestly think Loki's Decoy should be reworked. Looking at Mirage and Wukong's clones, Loki's is just awful. It could be made into something decent like perhaps it could spawn a number of spectre-like clones that run around and taunt enemies absorbing damage while on a duration. They could then explode at the end of the duration, inflicting the damage in an AOE attack. Perhaps that might be overpowered, something like that would be nice.

Switch Teleport definitely needs a change, but according to some people if you think it isn't useful for mobility anymore thanks to Parkour 2.0, then you must think every other mobility power is useless.

Edited February 6, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[gluih]

1 minute ago, NinjaZeku said:

I'm confused why you quoted me for that response, I didn't say anything about being in favor of changing Loki.

... mind you, I am 😛

Loki could definitely stand to get a boost or two, e.g. Decoy needs to be made immortal or something already
and Switch Teleport is not really all that grand anymore what with the default level of mobility we have nowadays.

You quoted me for some reason and I responded. Maybe you meant to quote someone else originally.

I sometimes use switch teleport in certain spy vaults.
I think the issue with switch teleport is mostly, that any target you would in theory want to use this ability on is better taken care of by just shooting it.
Maybe decoy could be changed, but again, there are more important things imo.