Mach rush problems, from a gauss main perspective

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Yes, yes it's me again and yes I'm opening this topic once again because the more i use mach rush, the more i realise how much i'm wasting my time

Nowadays warframes can have access to both fun and good looking abilities while also being very effective 

Mainly i'm talking about mobility increasing abilities 

Like Wukong's cloudwalker 

 it only scales off of sprint speed

Same thing with MR 

But cloud walker is a much much useful ability because it's actually faster at base and doesn't warp the screen if you go faster 

The more i use mach rush the more i realise how slow it is...

It's not useful for navigating large areas 

And it's not really needed in close quarters 

It's not even a good meme ability 

It's literally a sandbox themed ability, exists only to have that speed fantasy 

Gauss is a good warframe 

But his first ability is not effective.

What can i expect? maybe a 0.25 increase to his base speed when his prime comes out?

An augment that increases mach rush speed?

Mach rush being affected by casting speed?

Whichever the way, having gimmick abilities for utility that do not actually do a great job as utility is unacceptable 

Please do something about this...

 

[(XBOX)Calliber]

I love speed (Nezha), and I'm liking Gauss  I know Rush has it's limitations (turning speed and visibility), it's great in straight passages and open areas (assuming you don't stub your toe), but I do find it useful in CQC: aim at wall, MR into wall, knock down everything around me (modded for range)  It's fun, effective....efficient not so much.  The biggest issue is always the visibility, the warping effect is disorienting and could stand to be toned down a little.

But you want an Augment idea: Automatically melee attack enemies hit during Mach Rush.  Essentially, the melee attack animation doesn't happen, but if they suffer the knockdown from MR they take damage equal to a melee attack roll, influenced by combo counter and increases combo counter.  

[Kareekoe]

the Irony about Mach Rush is that most people use the Dash of the ability and not the rush, because the dash is better and the Rush sucks in far too many ways in comparison to the Dash in all around general gameplay.

the only way to fix the ability in my opinion would be to increase the amount Dash customization available to players and ignore rush for now until after Dash is reworked, currently the only thing that the Dash is affected by is Ability Efficiency and nothing else, which is pretty limiting and bad for an ability.

they should also rename the ability to "Mach Dash", because the Rush is a joke and because having the ability named after the least used and worst part of the ability is embarrassing.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Kareekoe

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Calliber said:

I love speed (Nezha), and I'm liking Gauss  I know Rush has it's limitations (turning speed and visibility), it's great in straight passages and open areas (assuming you don't stub your toe), but I do find it useful in CQC: aim at wall, MR into wall, knock down everything around me (modded for range)  It's fun, effective....efficient not so much.  The biggest issue is always the visibility, the warping effect is disorienting and could stand to be toned down a little.

But you want an Augment idea: Automatically melee attack enemies hit during Mach Rush.  Essentially, the melee attack animation doesn't happen, but if they suffer the knockdown from MR they take damage equal to a melee attack roll, influenced by combo counter and increases combo counter.  

He needs better speed, better visibility 

 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 minute ago, Kareekoe said:

the Irony about Mach Rush is that most people use the Dash of the ability and not the rush, because the dash is better and the Rush sucks in far too many ways in comparison to the Dash.

the only way to fix the ability in my opinion would be to make increase the amount Dash customization available to players and ignore rush for now until after Dash is reworked, currently the only thing that the Dash is affected by is Ability Efficiency and nothing else, which is pretty limiting and bad for an ability.

they should also rename the ability to "Mach Dash", because the Rush is a joke and because having the ability named after the least used and worst part of the ability is embarrassing.

Or just increase it's base speed

[taiiat]

the strength of Mach Rush is in moving short-medium bursts of distance very quickly.

don't hold it on, use it in bursts.
use it like Biotic Charge. it's great for that.

which is fine because in most Missions you don't have any long wide open distances to cross all at once. it's usually short-medium distances with sharp turns and crates/walls around, Et Cetera.

[Kareekoe]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Or just increase it's base speed

increasing base speed won't do anything to Mach Rush's awful maneuverability... which is the reason why no one uses the Rush... Dash provides a much better maneuverability and is faster at traveling through general game play missions than Rush because you aren't constantly crashing into things to stop your rush and it's also less consuming on energy and less annoying to cast because it's tap spam rather than holding down the ability.

Additionally, Gauss is the fastest frame on land currently on PC, because Wukong's cloud walker was nerfed to crap with it's sprint speed no longer affecting cloud walker's speed anymore, and Gauss is the fastest on land specifically, i'm pretty sure DE has no intentions on making him faster than or as fast as an Archwing or Titania through normal modding/statistical means if that is what you are suggesting, it would just be too ridiculous, not even Wukong's cloud walker with sprint speed mods affecting him was faster than Archwing/Titania before the nerf, and i'm pretty sure it's going to stay that way.

[ES-Flinter]

Did even anyone read what his Problem is? It's just about that Mach Rush is to slow. Nothing more. And I have to agree with him. Sure Mach Rush is faster than pure bulletjumping. (So faster than 90% of all player). But it's still slower if you combine bullet jumping with rolling.

With other words. Yes, mach rush needs a speed buff. (Would be funny, if DE decides to make the speed affected by ability duration.)

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

8 hours ago, Kareekoe said:

Gauss is the fastest frame on land currently

Volt is faster

[SASoHBoss]

This would be a great place for gauss critique so I'm gonna make my post about that. 

I think gauss needs some way to tune his movement. Like people should be able to equip friction down and be able to turn much faster. 

His 3 should be the opposite, like mag and nova, other duration based frames grow with time, not shrink, gauss should reflect this.

 

Gauss should have an argument for his one that increases his parkour speed for people who don't like mach rush for movement.

[SASoHBoss]

And he should add something. He was supposed to synergize with volt and grendal but all gauss does his take.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

17 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Yes, yes it's me again and yes I'm opening this topic once again because the more i use mach rush, the more i realise how much i'm wasting my time

Nowadays warframes can have access to both fun and good looking abilities while also being very effective 

Mainly i'm talking about mobility increasing abilities 

Like Wukong's cloudwalker 

 it only scales off of sprint speed

except CW was nerfed and no longer scales off speed and is a set 30m/s instead 

17 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Same thing with MR 

But cloud walker is a much much useful ability because it's actually faster at base and doesn't warp the screen if you go faster 
 

I do wish sometimes I could change the screen warp.

17 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

The more i use mach rush the more i realise how slow it is...

It's not useful for navigating large areas 

And it's not really needed in close quarters 

It's not even a good meme ability 

It's literally a sandbox themed ability, exists only to have that speed fantasy 

Gauss is a good warframe 

But his first ability is not effective.

I fail to see why it isn't effective. Its the best/easiest/fastest way to build battery, it still the fastest movement ability on land, and allows you to animation cancel a bunch of movements. 

17 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

What can i expect? maybe a 0.25 increase to his base speed when his prime comes out?

An augment that increases mach rush speed?

Mach rush being affected by casting speed?

You wanting more and more speed is foolhardy. He is already the fastest runner, it makes no sense why he would go even faster

17 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Whichever the way, having gimmick abilities for utility that do not actually do a great job as utility is unacceptable 

Please do something about this...

 

The more I see of your posts, the more I wonder if you actually enjoy gauss. It seems to be nonstop complaining about something that he is already the best in class for (running speeds). At what point did you go from actually truly enjoying gauss to being annoyed that you cant do the impossible?

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Volt is faster

This is patently false  

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

The more I see of your posts, the more I wonder if you actually enjoy gauss. It seems to be nonstop complaining about something that he is already the best in class for (running speeds). At what point did you go from actually truly enjoying gauss to being annoyed that you cant do the impossible?

i tend to complain a lot because i care so much about this warframe 

i've been longing for a warframe the relies heavily on movement, not just something that's part of it's kit...for example volt doesn't need to use speed in 90% of the content...same with zephyr

but gauss requires you to move and run which feels like a warframe tailored for me 

the screen warp for example is a bit too much..and would rather have the effects without the warping part

45 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

This is patently false  

i did a lot of tests...watched a lot of races...some ended with gauss wining and some ended with volt wining, but i don't really care who's faster anymore

volt can spam rolls and slides which  can make him faster but who cares right?

to be honest...i think gauss is faster than most volts you're going to see in missions

and the best thing about him i can make a full speed build with him while still having a lot of room for a perfect everyday build, unlike volt that requires heavy investment 

i am just mostly complaining about the heavy screen warp and the lack of speed in open areas...the one situation where the ability is really needed...

 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, Conquest375 said:

This would be a great place for gauss critique so I'm gonna make my post about that. 

I think gauss needs some way to tune his movement. Like people should be able to equip friction down and be able to turn much faster. 

His 3 should be the opposite, like mag and nova, other duration based frames grow with time, not shrink, gauss should reflect this.

 

Gauss should have an argument for his one that increases his parkour speed for people who don't like mach rush for movement.

i did think about friction mods increasing turn speed

but that wouldn't make sense tbh

less friction in real life would make it hard for him to turn

if anything friction mods should increase his speed but decrease his maneuverability...again something not everybody would like to invest into  

[SASoHBoss]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

i did think about friction mods increasing turn speed

but that wouldn't make sense tbh

less friction in real life would make it hard for him to turn

if anything friction mods should increase his speed but decrease his maneuverability...again something not everybody would like to invest into  

That's not nessarly true. We are assuming that gauss runs on car physics, we have no idea how he works. He may not even be touching the surface when he runs. You can easily make it have sense just as much as.you can make it nonsense.

[X_Bo]

personally i love the dash as is. holding the rush down i agree is terrible, uses too much energy and you have other options (mods or other frames included) even though mach rush was meant to be used a lot in open worlds (both k-drive and especially archwing with the new free blink is flat out better) but it uses too much energy for really not going all that fast even with redline up.

sure you can max the zenurik energizing dash but even with that "fast travel" sucks with gauss. i have a better and faster experience using cloud walker with wu or nezha with fire walker or really any frame with a decent acrobatic mod on (such as mobilize) while  using the roll bullet jump slide repeat technique... i even got atlas (prime) to be practically as fast as gauss and atlas didn't need to use a lot of energy to go from point a to b.

sidenote titania is fastest because of her blitz augment it just takes a second to get going.

idea's to make long running better.

Spoiler

im not quite sure how de could make the rush better (obviously make it faster) because he already scales hard off of duration so maybe adding range energy scaling or having range also increase how far you go could assist while adding some more value to a range build or possibly adding a secondary passive like the longer you run the less it drains. (like valkyr's hysteria the longer its up the more it drains but in the case the opposite)

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

This is patently false  

Mach Rush is faster for short to approaching medium Distances, Volt Speed is faster for medium and long Distances.

Volt gets to scale off of both Sprint Speed and Strength, Gauss gets just Sprint Speed. it's pretty simple.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Mach Rush is faster for short to approaching medium Distances, Volt Speed is faster for medium and long Distances.

Volt gets to scale off of both Sprint Speed and Strength, Gauss gets just Sprint Speed. it's pretty simple.

Except gauss is still faster then volt when both are full on running with one exception, and thats if volt has a max charge energy conversion.  

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

Mach Rush is faster for short to approaching medium Distances, Volt Speed is faster for medium and long Distances.

Volt gets to scale off of both Sprint Speed and Strength, Gauss gets just Sprint Speed. it's pretty simple.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Except gauss is still faster then volt when both are full on running with one exception, and thats if volt has a max charge energy conversion.  

If the volt spam slide dash or rolls, he's faster which is unfair 

Edited February 18, 2020 by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk

[.A.G]

Hopper is correct, it has nothing to do with rolling or sliding or energy conversion, Volt is just roughly twice as fast as Gauss.

@CommanderC2121 There are only two reasons why you might think Gauss is faster

1) His FOV distortion gives you a false perception of his speed.

2) Gauss dashes to max speed where Volt has to accelerate to his. As Hopper pointed out, anything beyond the first few hundred meters and Volt's speed will easily catch up and leave Gauss well behind.

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Except gauss is still faster then volt when both are full on running

 

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

Mach Rush is faster for short to approaching medium Distances, Volt Speed is faster for medium and long Distances.

this follows the rules of Racing - the fastest Racer is almost always the Car that maintains the highest average Speed, not the one that can burst ahead sometimes.
Races are won and lost in the times where you slow down, if you ever have to. Gauss slows down in either Casting Mach Rush repeatedly, where in between Casts Gauss is slowing down, or if one Cast, for everything after the initial burst, where speed decreases.
Volt won't accelerate as fast but Volt Speed also makes you equally faster no matter what you're doing. Sprinting, Jumping, Wallrunning, no matter what you're doing, you're still moving the same amount faster. because it makes you fundamentally move faster.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

 

this follows the rules of Racing - the fastest Racer is almost always the Car that maintains the highest average Speed, not the one that can burst ahead sometimes.
Races are won and lost in the times where you slow down, if you ever have to. Gauss slows down in either Casting Mach Rush repeatedly, where in between Casts Gauss is slowing down, or if one Cast, for everything after the initial burst, where speed decreases.
Volt won't accelerate as fast but Volt Speed also makes you equally faster no matter what you're doing. Sprinting, Jumping, Wallrunning, no matter what you're doing, you're still moving the same amount faster. because it makes you fundamentally move faster.

 

42 minutes ago, .A.G said:

Hopper is correct, it has nothing to do with rolling or sliding or energy conversion, Volt is just roughly twice as fast as Gauss.

@CommanderC2121 There are only two reasons why you might think Gauss is faster

1) His FOV distortion gives you a false perception of his speed.

2) Gauss dashes to max speed where Volt has to accelerate to his. As Hopper pointed out, anything beyond the first few hundred meters and Volt's speed will easily catch up and leave Gauss well behind.

Ok but here where it becomes inconsistent 

I won a 300 meters race against a volt that had 337% power strength

Then he won when he dash slided

Then he won again when he rolled 

In a normal legit running contest at around 300m distance gauss is faster due to his initial instant acceleration, 

But once Volt spam slides or rolls he becomes twice as fast as he was before, and also accelerates faster 

 

[.A.G]

Yeah, that's because the slide and roll increases acceleration which is Volt's initial disadvantage. This is similar to if you're sprinting, you won't go as fast as if you hit slide in between.

Over a 500m+ race though, you'll never beat Volt, no matter what. As the distance increases, you'll only see Volt get further and further ahead, because as I mentioned, he's twice as fast as the fastest Gauss once he's at full speed.

 

[taiiat]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

In a normal legit running contest

that's an arbitrary rule. nobody ever (here either) says anything about which Warframe has a higher Sprint Speed, people question which Warframe is faster.
Volt is faster. because he gets a global Movement Speed Bonus, vs a Sprint Speed Bonus.

you could also say a midrange Sports Car is faster than an F1 Car if you limit the F1 Car to around 5000-7000RPM (instead of the usual 15,000-17,000), what the Engine in the Sports Car can do, which is an arbitrary rule when asking 'which is faster' rather than letting the F1 Car drive the way it normally drives.

 

again, Volt can scale using both Ability Strength and Sprint Speed Mods (and Parkour Speed Mods for that matter), Gauss scales with just Sprint Speed Mods.
does it matter in Gameplay? not really, because those sorts of long distances effectively never exist anyways, distances being crossed are usually within 50 Meters or so.
hence the repeated statement of Gauss is faster in short to some medium, Volt Medium to long.

Edited February 18, 2020 by taiiat

[Kareekoe]

In controlled tests you will see that volt is faster, but in actual missions and in practice there are multiple issues that Volt has that will end up screwing him over and making him worse than Gauss.

In-mission in-practice comparisons between Volt and Gauss:

Volt 1. Volt constantly gets 1 shotted by stuff that just simply looks at him angrily. (typically happens after mid-game)

Gauss 1. Gauss's ability Kit makes him a tanky beast.

Volt 2. if you have a Gauss in your game, your speed buff will buff the Gauss, there for, making you leagues slower than the Gauss.

Gauss 2. if you're the Gauss, you will use that buff volt gave you and have fun with it while you then wait at extraction for 20 seconds or more for the Volt and others to get to meet you at the extraction while playing around on your shawzin.

Volt 3. if enemies get in your way, they will block your movement, making it easier for enemies to kill you by slapping you with a melee.

Gauss 3. I CAME IN LIKE A WRECKING BALL, lol, zoom! out of my way XD, in other words, enemies can't block you as Gauss if you use either the dash or the rush, you physically move enemies out of your way, it becomes impossible for enemies to hit you with cheap melee's after trapping you with their bodies because they simply can't.

Volt 4. Volt is prone to being knocked down, you can get knock down immunity with primed sure footed but that would be at the extent of removing one of the mods you need to have equipped to be faster than Gauss.

Gauss 4. Gauss can just dash through the knockdowns with the dash part of his ability and i think the rush too, he has knockdown immunity while his dash is being used and casted, so knockdowns will be very limited as the only time it can happen will be the limited time windows between each casting.

Volt 5. Volt has no damage resistance ability.

Gauss. 5 Kinetic plating + Red Line Synergy.

Volt 6. 6+ forma minmaxing non-sense, constant polarity conflicts which will force you to build another volt if you want to make other builds in a way that won't suck, Example: the inability to make good Discharge/Eidolon hunt builds

Gauss 6. 1 forma and you're basically good, not a minmaxing dump, will work with other builds easily.

Volt 7. Volt's ability duration might actually be at or close to base duration due to getting almost max strength and you will likely also have negative efficiency due to blind rage being practically required on volt speed build, meaning that it ends up being more energy intensive.

Gauss 7. Gauss loves ability duration and efficiency, does not use strength to make him faster, only sprint speed alone makes him faster, due to being able to comfortably equip both duration and efficiency with literally 0 problems at all, his energy demands are very tiny and limited in comparison, that and having Red Line up will half the energy consumption of Mach Rush and it's dash, meaning that your energy demands are even lower.

Volt 8. As stated in "Volt 1." he is extremely squishy, making him unplayable in most missions after mid game, especially sorties, and don't even try on rail jack, he dies on early rail jack pretty hilariously due to how hard hitting the enemies in rail jack are by default.

Gauss 8. Can basically play anything, as stated in "Gauss 1." he is a tanky beast, meaning that he can play pretty much everything late and end game, Sorties and Rail jack Veil are no problem for Gauss.

Volt 9. Energy reduction missions are a big fat pain for volt.

Gauss 9. Energy reduction missions are not a problem what so ever.

Volt 10. Nullifiers are scary for volt, you can more often find times where you are too low on energy to cast it back up immediately due to how much energy each cast will take (with 45% ability efficiency due to having blind rage on)

Gauss 10. Nullifiers are a minor inconvenience bulk majority of the time it goes like this,"oops, i accidentally touched a Nullifier, well it's a good thing i still have like 100+ energy from how little i'm consuming"  *shrugs* (175% ability efficiency)

Volt 11. lack of kit use flexibility, he is full on reliant on his speed ability, the rest of his kit is basically useless to him.

Gauss 11. great flexibility, can and will actively cast and use his 1, 2, and 4, only his 3 is not useful to his speed build.

Volt 12. Volt Suffers from not only from Acceleration but some pretty annoying momentum that is hard to combat and control.

Gauss 12. Gauss is full speed almost instantly and can easily combat and deal with the momentum he has through use of the Dash part of his Mach Rush, instantly changing direction and canceling out his previously gained momentum and his Dash adds a very limited amount of momentum making it very easy to control after coming out of his dash.

In my conclusions:

Speed Volt is faster and better at early game up to mid game where stuff has trouble killing squishy things, but doesn't scale past mid game, it can do Void Capture Hepit Faster than Gauss, but takes lots of practice, you need to know how to get up to speed as fast and efficiently as possible while knowing how to combat it's ridiculous momentum.

Gauss is faster and better in later mid game and up to end game, he scales greatly due to his damage resistance ability in his kit and the synergies between abilities in his kit, it takes a bit of practice to master how to use the Dash and the Rush to the best of it's ability while you don't have to worry much at all about momentum as learning about momentum is not a big part of learning how to Gauss right.

Both have their their own advantages.

Which frame wins overall?

Gauss wins due to his ability to play General Well Rounded Content much smoother and cleaner than Volt can, and the fact that Gauss is much easier and much more casual to set up, pick up, and play.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Kareekoe