Calling it now RIP kohm rivens

[DrBorris]

Gotta love people casually ignoring every shotgun that could not reach 100% status and how this will be a massive buff to those.

All hail our new shotgun god, Vaykor Hek. Actually, there is a chance base Hek may become the best Status shotgun in the game due to its augment.

[Lion]

It's going to be a pretty huge buff from a numbers perspective. But we'll have to see it in practice, I'd refrain from any knee-jerk reaction and wait till it's actually in the game.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

47 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

If shotguns were the only weapons in the game that were able to use the double stacking effects, then there could be a conversation of this being a buff. But since they aren't and every weapon can utilize the doubled effects, its a straight up, objective nerf to any shotgun that could reach 100% status chance.

This is, however, a buff to all the shotguns that could not reach 100% status chance, because all of those just get a 3x to their status chance.

 

Just do the math with any of the viable shotguns in the game right now.

Take the Tigress prime for example, Right now it has 30% status chance (4.3% per pellet), so if you put 4 60/60 mods on you get to 100% status, which makes every pellet proc a status. With the proposed changes it will instead have a 13% status chance per pellet (factoring in the 3x chance they are giving to all shotguns), with the same build of 4 60/60 mods it goes up to 44% chance per pellet. 

That's a straight up 50% nerf to status chance.

The Kohm right now has 25% status chance. Which means you need a build of +300% status chance to get every pellet to proc. With the changes it goes from 2.37% per pellet to 7.11%. If you have the same +300% only 29% of your pellets proc.

 

If the devs "don't like nerfs" like they said on stream, they should have just changed it so that every pellet has the advertised status chance.

 

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

After these changes, only one shotgun (Exergis) will be able to exceed 100% status, while almost all shotguns will still have a lower 'damage instance/second' rate than most auto-rifles in the game.

Thus, status shotguns will be worse at applying status than a number of rifles. Which counts as a nerf compared to right now.

Now, whether or not that is a problem will largely depend on whether or not procs like slash, toxin, and heat will still stack their damage across multiple instances. If they do, then rifles are now the new status weapons. If not, then it won't matter either way, since status as a whole will be dead.

To prove this, compare a current Tigris Prime build to one built on the new system. You will, on average, get far fewer slash procs than before, which means lower damage output. That means it has been nerfed.

Now, what the Devstream did a bad job of pointing out is that they planned on this being a nerf. They explicitly said that having every pellet proc was broken. Thus, the new system prevents all but one shotgun of achieving that.

 

37 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Because the current numbers in-game are simply the aggregate chance that at least one pellet procs. This creates a form of logarithmic function that shoots to infinity when the chance approaches 100%. What they are doing is taking the current per-pellet chance to proc, which is not the number currently shown, tripling it, and making that the new number that gets modded.

Which is a nerf to any shotgun that shoots more than three pellets.

 

16 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

the way status chance for shotguns works now is you take the advertised status chance and divide it by how many pellets per shot the shotgun fires. UNLESS you raise the status chance to 100% using mods, in which case every pellet has a 100% chance to proc an effect.

 

Using the Tigress prime again:

Unmodded: 30% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 3.4% per pellet.

Modded to 100% status, the way the devs say it should work: 100% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 14.3% per pellet.

Modded to 100% status, the way it currently works in game: 100% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 100% per pellet.

 

Its basically a super old bug thats been there since day 1.

The status chance of a shotgun is supposed to represent the chance you have to get 1 single status proc per shot, which is why it gets divided by how many pellets there are in a shot. But since the game says that a 100% status chance is a guaranteed to proc a status effect, it bypasses the math of the pellet count and just makes every pellet proc.

 

So what I'm hearing from all these posts is RIP status shotguns completely, let alone rivens. If getting every pellet to proc is no longer going to be possible, it sounds like an enormous nerf.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

11 minutes ago, nslay said:

How they are doing it is the problem. Look, it's already broken for Astilla... because it's not sourced from probability theory like the current system. It's a hack.

They are permanently changing the stats in the game files, not adding a hidden 3x multiplier. Thus, whether or not they multiply the status by 3x is a per-weapon choice, as they go through each weapon to update their stats. It will be much like the changes made with Melee 3.0, except that they are also changing the display from aggregate chance to per-pellet chance.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

26 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

the way status chance for shotguns works now is you take the advertised status chance and divide it by how many pellets per shot the shotgun fires. UNLESS you raise the status chance to 100% using mods, in which case every pellet has a 100% chance to proc an effect.

 

Using the Tigress prime again:

Unmodded: 30% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 3.4% per pellet.

Modded to 100% status, the way the devs say it should work: 100% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 14.3% per pellet.

Modded to 100% status, the way it currently works in game: 100% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 100% per pellet.

 

Its basically a super old bug thats been there since day 1.

The status chance of a shotgun is supposed to represent the chance you have to get 1 single status proc per shot, which is why it gets divided by how many pellets there are in a shot. But since the game says that a 100% status chance is a guaranteed to proc a status effect, it bypasses the math of the pellet count and just makes every pellet proc.

 

That is mostly correct, except the part about how the devs want it. The new system won't care about how many pellets there are. It will be the chance per-pellet, and that will be the stat that mods effect. The only part that pellet count is going to be involved in is when they first figure out how much status-per-pellet each shotgun should have, since they said they were going to use the current chance-per-pellet x3. In the old system, 100% meant 100% chance per-pellet. In the new system, 100% will mean 100% chance per pellet, but the status chance numbers will be so low that getting to 100% will be impossible for all multishot shotguns (so not Astilla or Arca Plasmor) other than the Exergis.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

 

 

 

So what I'm hearing from all these posts is RIP status shotguns completely, let alone rivens. If getting every pellet to proc is no longer going to be possible, it sounds like an enormous nerf.

Essentially, yes. Exergis will actually get a small buff if they do exactly what they said they will do, but all other status shotguns will get huge nerfs.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

I honestly dont see this as a huge problem, considering all status base weapons as whole are going to see more usability and more various ways to build them.

I actually see this as a whole, better for every status weapon in the game, and with that Riven values are going to change (again not a huge deal) 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Just now, (XB1)Cram Duahcim said:

I honestly dont see this as a huge problem, considering all status base weapons as whole are going to see more usability and more various ways to build them.

I actually see this as a whole, better for every status weapon in the game, and with that Riven values are going to change (again not a huge deal) 

Don't get me wrong, it's an amazingly good change for rifles, and especially for snipers (looking at you, Komorex), but it is a sizeable nerf to most shotguns, which is problematic. Ironically, it means that, aside from the Exergis, crit shotguns will be better than status shotguns, which is the opposite of what they intended to achieve everywhere else.

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

We haven't played with the changes so we really don't know how shotguns are going to be affected that rely on status.  On top of that they could make future tweaks to the system.  So it's still early to declare the sky is falling.  

This is the Internet, the sky is falling by default.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, HerpDerpy said:

the way status chance for shotguns works now is you take the advertised status chance and divide it by how many pellets per shot the shotgun fires. UNLESS you raise the status chance to 100% using mods, in which case every pellet has a 100% chance to proc an effect.

 

Using the Tigress prime again:

Unmodded: 30% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 3.4% per pellet.

Modded to 100% status, the way the devs say it should work: 100% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 14.3% per pellet.

Modded to 100% status, the way it currently works in game: 100% status chance, divided by 7 pellets = 100% per pellet.

 

Its basically a super old bug thats been there since day 1.

The status chance of a shotgun is supposed to represent the chance you have to get 1 single status proc per shot, which is why it gets divided by how many pellets there are in a shot. But since the game says that a 100% status chance is a guaranteed to proc a status effect, it bypasses the math of the pellet count and just makes every pellet proc.

 

Without watching the Devstream, this makes the most sense.  My question is, “Does each pellet check against EVERY type of status possible?”

There has to be something to compensate, because if not, Shotguns get trashed with the status-“critical mass 100%” bug going away.

Time to go watch.

Edited February 29, 2020 by (PS4)Silverback73

[DarthIronclad]

if what people say are truth and no changes happen between now and the update drop, It will just make hybrid builds the meta on shotguns...the same other weapon types...

 

Tigris prime is prob gonna get hit the hardest,due to low crit chance...using the vigilante mod set might somewhat help...but i dont think it will work as well as something like the kohm. (I used a crit build on a NORMAL kohm with HM,though only works well with a vigilante mod set with 4 out of 6 of the mods,even better if you can run the full set,which my inaros build allows(the build also allows full gladiator set too,but need to swap up sentinel stat stick and mods in the inaros build obv)

 

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

Good lord this place is going to die of salt poisoning when that next patch hits.

nah, we managed to mine through the vast Sodium Chloride mountain that was Primed Chamber's return, the salt won't be quite as bad.. but still worth bringing popcorn lol.

2 hours ago, nslay said:

Is this not right?

just throwing out that Shotgun Savvy is supposedly being buffed to 90%, so you would have to calculate that + Dual Stat mods, as people are obviously gonna use both. 

at the end of the day though, all we can do is wait and see, and take our favourite boomsticks to the simulacrum to see what the changes are. (well, you guys on PC will anyway).