On the change to Venari Heal

[Jarriaga]

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The game has seperated those things for a long time, it was just overlooked with Venari.

Even if the game separates the two, you have no way to prove that Venari was not designed to bypass said restriction as a compromise to Khora's strangledome not protecting against shooting and the low heal ammout. I on the other hand can point out that, again, the wording of the tooltip does not discriminate.

If they wanted to change that, then fine. My problem is them calling it a fix.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Jarriaga

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Even if the game separates the two, you have no way to prove that Venari was not designed to bypass said restriction as a compromise to Khora's strangledome not protecting against shooting and the low heal ammout. I on the other hand can point out that, again, the wording of the tooltip does not discriminate.

If they wanted to change that, then fine. My problem is them calling it a fix.

Yeah, this is why I imagine Venari was designed with such an ability (I mean, it makes sense!). But you know... there are plenty of frames with weird out-of-place abilities with no obvious reasoning behind them.

[TheLexiConArtist]

30 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

Why are people so upset about not being able to heal cryopods. They self heal. There is no reason to cast heal on a cryopod.  

Moving defense targets don't self heal. Those are the things you would want to heal. And guess what? You can! 

Natural healing of an inanimate defendable object (if at all, not all do self-repair): Maybe 10 hps.

Venari Heal: 50 hps at 100% power strength.

Anyone who's ever been in a tight situation in defense and legitimately needed to allow the objective to self-heal can attest that it takes an eternity for it to get anywhere. Venari heal just accelerated the process to a slightly more usable level.

 

And who exactly said that all static defendable objects were 'never intended to be healed by the player'? I'm going to give a big ^{[citation needed]} on that one. We only have a statement that OpLinks are not meant to be targetable by abilities - disregarding the fact that they still are subject to most that aren't healing - and this only makes arguable sense because of the credit-sink 'support' mechanic (which we'd all happily do without, honestly).

Edited April 1, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[nslay]

Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

Natural healing of an inanimate defendable object (if at all, not all do self-repair): Maybe 10 hps.

Venari Heal: 50 hps at 10% power strength.

Anyone who's ever been in a tight situation in defense and legitimately needed to allow the objective to self-heal can attest that it takes an eternity for it to get anywhere. Venari heal just accelerated the process to a slightly more usable level.

 

And who exactly said that all static defendable objects were 'never intended to be healed by the player'? I'm going to give a big ^{[citation needed]} on that one. We only have a statement that OpLinks are not meant to be targetable by abilities - disregarding the fact that they still are subject to most that aren't healing - and this only makes arguable sense because of the credit-sink 'support' mechanic (which we'd all happily do without, honestly).

And if we actually need this heal at all for star chart cryopods... we can further nitpick: auto-heal does not activate until after several seconds of not taking damage. I assume Venari can heal it on demand at any time and keep it going regardless of stray bullets.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Even if the game separates the two, you have no way to prove that Venari was not designed to bypass said restriction as a compromise to Khora's strangledome not protecting against shooting and the low heal ammout. I on the other hand can point out that, again, the wording of the tooltip does not discriminate.

I have no need to prove it since I simply use common sense. Complaining about it being changed is pointless since it was a thing for the star chart, where healing the objective is already pointless over just killing. In any other place where there are static objectives, the enemy damage is far higher, making it pointless to have Venari sit and watch the objective over having her rip things to pieces or CC them, the heal just wont keep up with incoming damage. On moving objectives it has been the only point of use, which is still 100% intact, because those mobs arent just standing there and eating the damage.

You are also not pointing out the wording on the tooltip, you are pointing out the wording on a tips & tricks entry.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, nslay said:

And if we actually need this heal at all for star chart cryopods... we can further nitpick: auto-heal does not activate until after several seconds of not taking damage. I assume Venari can heal it on demand at any time and keep it going regardless of stray bullets.

This was actually the case on oplinks. Rejuvenation and Venari Heal would be deferred a few seconds after it took damage. My guess is that under the hood it's programmed as 'additive health regen', so anything that prevents natural regen (such as taking damage) works against these as well, even if the 'natural regen' is zero.

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This was actually the case on oplinks. Rejuvenation and Venari Heal would be deferred a few seconds after it took damage. My guess is that under the hood it's programmed as 'additive health regen', so anything that prevents natural regen (such as taking damage) works against these as well, even if the 'natural regen' is zero.

Welp, we can know for sure by testing Venari on possibly the only stationary defense objectives that don't auto-heal (I'm pretty sure they don't. Bonus objectives are even tied to their health): Supply Vault (PoE) and Coil Drive (Orb Vallis)

EDIT: Oh yeah! Excavators don't heal either! Ah, I forgot about those!

Edited April 1, 2020 by nslay

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I have no need to prove it since I simply use common sense.

Common sense, the ultimate defense against any other argument, document, statement, or action. Might as well say "my way or the high way".

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 Complaining about it being changed is pointless since it was a thing for the star chart, where healing the objective is already pointless over just killing. In any other place where there are static objectives, the enemy damage is far higher, making it pointless to have Venari sit and watch the objective over having her rip things to pieces or CC them, the heal just wont keep up with incoming damage. On moving objectives it has been the only point of use, which is still 100% intact, because those mobs arent just standing there and eating the damage.

This has nothing to do with the usefulness or purpose of the ability. As I pointed out in the section you willingly decided to leave out of what you quoted: If they wanted to change that, then fine. My problem is them calling it a fix.

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are also not pointing out the wording on the tooltip, you are pointing out the wording on a tips & tricks entry.

What is this then?

So that's a "tips and tricks entry" (Implying wiki) rather than in-game text in her dedicated tips section, which pops-up as a tooltip? That's my own screenshot by the way.

See, that's the problem of arguing from a "common sense" high horse: You need to be factually correct in order to hold that position. Thank you for showing you have never even bothered to review her official ability use description in-game yet somehow having the balls to argue it's not intended.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Jarriaga

[ShaperOfForm]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

So that's a "tips and tricks entry" (Implying wiki) rather than in-game text in her dedicated tips section?

See, that's the problem of arguing from a "common sense" high horse: You need to be factually correct in order to hold that position.

You do realize that tip is still true after the fix? If something is marked it heals. 

The change is what can be marked. And what can be marked is inline with other warframe healing abilities. 

What is not factual about any of that? 

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, ShaperOfForm a dit :

 that tip is still true after the fix? If something is marked it heals. 

The change is what can be marked. And what can be marked is inline with other warframe healing abilities.

So the tip state "You can heal Marked defense target" ; but you can't mark defense target ?

[Jarriaga]

6 minutes ago, ShaperOfForm said:

You do realize that tip is still true after the fix? If something is marked it heals. 

The change is what can be marked. And what can be marked is inline with other warframe healing abilities. 

What is not factual about any of that? 

So now you're moving the goalpost from "You can't mark cryopods" (Implying she could not do so before) to "What has changed is what you can mark"?

How does that address the fact that the previous function, now deemed "a bug", did exactly what it did it said but it's now suddenly a bug? Again, since the point is flying over your head, circling around the planet, and flying over your head 50 times more, I don't care about the actual ability being changed. If DE had a change of heart on what the ability is allowed to do then fine. My problem is them calling it a bug despite having direct in-game evidence from in-game text to in-game functions contradicting that label, which either shows a blatant lie on their end, or a terrible lack of communications with debuggers that don't actually play the game yet assigned to change it.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Slaytanic93]

1 hour ago, ShaperOfForm said:

Nslay, I have no idea what you are trying to say. You didn't bother typing anything. 

I am assuming you are pointing to me saying it works and others saying it doesn't. 

I personally tested it and confirmed it works. Anyone that says it doesn't, must not know what they are doing. 

Being marked means having the heal icon above the NPC. Point at an NPC and press 3 when using Khora and the heal stance is active. 

 

 

45 minutes ago, nslay said:

Why say what was already said on page 1 of this thread. That poster tested it and claims it doesn't work.

 

To clarify, since I am the one being quoted, I've tested it with Cryopod and Excavators (the latter don't self heal) and it doesn't work. I have not tested operatives. That is what my original post claiming it doesn't work implies.

[SneakyErvin]

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Common sense, the ultimate defense against any other argument, document, statement, or action. Might as well say "my way or the high way".

This has nothing to do with the usefulness or purpose of the ability. As I pointed out in the section you willingly decided to leave out of what you quoted: If they wanted to change that, then fine. My problem is them calling it a fix.

What is this then?

So that's a "tips and tricks entry" (Implying wiki) rather than in-game text in her dedicated tips section, which pops-up as a tooltip? That's my own screenshot by the way.

See, that's the problem of arguing from a "common sense" high horse: You need to be factually correct in order to hold that position. Thank you for showing you have never even bothered to review her official ability use description in-game yet somehow having the balls to argue it's not intended.

It is a tip. Lots of things are stated in the tips, none of them are 100% descriptive of every minor thing. The tip still holds true and is as true as most other tips in the game. 

If you want the tip to be 100% true the ability would only work on "Defense objectives", not on rescuees, defectors or anything else, because they arent defense targets. It obviously also was faulty according to the tip since it worked on extractors, kuva survival siphons and other things that arent "Defense objectives".

So your own proof proved you wrong since it is a matter of interpretation in both cases due to an as usual vague skill tip.

edit: I also never said anything about the wiki, nor did I even think of it. I simply said "tips & tricks" cos I couldnt remember what they called it in game.

Edited April 1, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, Slaytanic93 said:

To clarify, since I am the one being quoted, I've tested it with Cryopod and Excavators (the latter don't self heal) and it doesn't work. I have not tested operatives. That is what my original post claiming it doesn't work implies.

Well, those are types of Defense Objectives, so it doesn't work as the in-game tip suggests.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

It is a tip. Lots of things are stated in the tips, none of them are 100% descriptive of every minor thing. The tip still holds true and is as true as most other tips in the game. 

If you want the tip to be 100% true the ability would only work on "Defense objectives", not on rescuees, defectors or anything else, because they arent defense targets. It abviously also was faulty according to the tip since it worked on extractors, kuva survival siphons and other things that arent "Defense objectives".

So your own proof proved you wrong since it is a matter of interpretation in both cases due to an as usual vague skil tip.

False dichotomy. Stating that it works on a defense target doesn't state it won't work on anything else.

Besides, you ostensibly have to 'defend' everything else it works on - rescue targets are to be defended, as are defectors, while escorting to extraction - the only exceptions are Clem and Syndicate buddies, who are irrelevant.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

Well, those are types of Defense Objectives, so it doesn't work as the in-game tip suggests.

That isnt what the tip says. It says "... Defense objectives" which is different from "... Defense Objectives". It emphazises on the game mode Defense.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

False dichotomy. Stating that it works on a defense target doesn't state it won't work on anything else.

Besides, you ostensibly have to 'defend' everything else it works on - rescue targets are to be defended, as are defectors, while escorting to extraction - the only exceptions are Clem and Syndicate buddies, who are irrelevant.

Read how it is written. It doesnt say "defense objective" or "Defense Objective", it says "Defense objective". Refering to the game mode itself by using a capital letter to signify the name of the mode.

Edited April 1, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[nslay]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt what the tip says. It says "... Defense objectives" which is different from "... Defense Objectives". It emphazises on the game mode Defense.

It doesn't work there either according to @Slaytanic93. It doesn't work.

[Slaytanic93]

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

Well, those are types of Defense Objectives, so it doesn't work as the in-game tip suggests.

Yeah, I agree, I'm just clarifying as that other person tested it on operatives and said I hadn't tested it properly or didn't know what I'm talking about. Me and him were testing different things.

Also, on a side note, my thread got merged with god knows how many others, keeping my OP but the sensationalist title of another, losing some context, and flooding it with weird replies that were directed at another thread. wow nice

I've edited the title back to something neutral

Edited April 1, 2020 by Slaytanic93

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, nslay said:

It doesn't work there either according to @Slaytanic93. It doesn't work.

Yes it does, just not on static versions of it. So it is still true to the tip and how all other warframe heals work in the game.

[nslay]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes it does, just not on static versions of it. So it is still true to the tip and how all other warframe heals work in the game.

A stationary version of a Defense objective is still a Defense objective. No matter how silly it is!

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes it does, just not on static versions of it. So it is still true to the tip and how all other warframe heals work in the game.

So, 'it does except it doesn't'. Moving the goalposts. You should probably brush up on logical fallacies.

[Sovyul]

SneakyErvin is right in this case, even though it's anti-fun, "Defense objectives" means objectives in Defense missions, funny wording DE

But it must be an isolated case, imagine if such funny wordings slipped onto mods too that are sold by Baro haha, that would be unfortunate

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

A stationary version of a Defense objective is still a Defense objective. No matter how silly it is!

 

5 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

So, 'it does except it doesn't'. Moving the goalposts. You should probably brush up on logical fallacies.

And again, tips are not 100% accurate descriptions of a skill and how it interacts, they are just tips.

And if you want it to be 100% accurate then it was never intended to work on anything besides static Defense objective aswell as sortie/arbi Defense objectives. Excavators are Excavation objectives, Kuva survival siphons are Kuva Survival objectives and so on.

The whole 100% accuracy in a tip doesnt just go one way. So make up your minds about what you really claim they nerfed that was intended.

[ilnex]

So just did a fast test, Gara can still use her 2 on the Oplinks but Nezha can't use safeguard on them. not looking to get it removed just wish that they would put the Venari heal back.

Edited April 1, 2020 by ilnex