On the change to Venari Heal

[Tinklzs]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

The truth

Yup.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

9 hours ago, Tinklzs said:

Even though what he said was truthful, DE took offense to it calling it character assassination (basically) on twitter and said they were disappointed in him / wanted him to stop attacking them.

This is the thing that bothers me the most about the community side of this game, and in certain circles in general.  The world I come from, people speak plainly.  People that will smile and be super polite and talk a bunch of S#&$ with flowery, pleasant wording are immediately distrusted and disliked by everyone I have ever had any respect for.  What ol Train Man said was phrased bluntly, but accurately and they couldn't look past their hurt feelings to see the truth in it.  If you lie, and I call you a liar, that's not an attack.  If you put out trash content and I call it trash content because it's literally the same content you've already put out 6 times, that's not an attack.  That's the truth, and it shouldn't have to be said with a smile for anyone to understand that it's the truth.

In the industry I work in, you screw something up, people can get hurt, or die.  Millions on millions of dollars can be lost if the equipment I manufacture fails in the field.  I get tested rigorously and when I fail, I don't care about the tone of the people that tell me I failed.  I think about the failures that have happened in the field in the past where people have gotten hurt and I feel bad that I could have shipped something out that could have hurt someone and I fix it and I do better.

Also, I should have read the thread before responding to dude that tagged me.  We basically just tag teamed the same points with similar responses.

Edited April 3, 2020 by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

What ol Train Man said was phrased bluntly, but accurately and they couldn't look past their hurt feelings to see the truth in it.  If you lie, and I call you a liar, that's not an attack.  If you put out trash content and I call it trash content because it's literally the same content you've already put out 6 times, that's not an attack.  That's the truth, and it shouldn't have to be said with a smile for anyone to understand that it's the truth.

That's really the crux of it all though.  DE's staff (or at least the people we get to see the face of) are friends.  They've been through a lot with each other.  You can very clearly see their kinds of relationships on streams, tweets, and events.  They're practically a family.  There's nothing inherently wrong with being close with your coworkers at least in my opinion.  It's how it does or doesn't effect your work that becomes the issue.

DE responded the way they did to the train man because they care about each other.  But probably even more damning is they are probably aware of this favoritism and conflict of interest on some level.  No one likes being called on their crud.  It's embarassing.  it's humiliating.  And very very upsetting.  I don't believe DE wants to intentionally hurt their fanbase.  I don't believe DE to be a bunch of idiots when it comes to their game.  I just think they struggle with making the right calls.  They struggle with direction and quality management.  All of their problems are solvable though.

DE can absolutely bounce back and make Warframe an enjoyable experience again.  They just have to want to.  And they have to actually see it through rather than just bailing on it when something becomes difficult.  They need to stop with the "good enough" mentality.  We know how ambitious and talented they are.  But DE almost never attempts unless we the community push them hard about it.  We give them complacency.  And because of that they get to continue to stagnate and make the same repeated mistakes.  Because no one is there to stop them.  WF is the worst it's ever been update wise imho and yet people go on with the game as if everything is status quo.  That's incredibly painful.

DE needs to change.  And I don't think that will happen without outside help.  Or some/most of the current faces we've grown to love end up leaving.  IIRC most if not all things have to be ran by Steve at some point.  Which is probably not helping the games situation.  (not that i've anything against him.  His vision of railjack made me fall in love with the game twice over.  I really do hope he hasn't gotten too crushed over his dream stumbling so hard.)

I bare no ill will towards them.  But i've had my fill.  If DE ever really does turn the ship around and actually gets things properly going again you can bet i'll be back.  But for now I choose to just lurk the forums.  Support the few content creators I watch that still play this game.  And try to think back fondly on the good memories I had in the years i've been with the game. 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

No one likes being called on their crud. 

That doesn't change what the truth is.  No one's emotions get to effect the truth.  Be mad about something all you want, but when you are faced with truthful accusations about your actions, fix it.  Plenty of actual evidence has been provided for the things that were leveled against them.  It wasn't just some random attack on their character because someone was mad about something unrelated.  Someone was mad about a specific thing they were doing and called them out on it because trying to get them to fix it quietly wasn't getting anywhere.  It was only AFTER being publicly called out that they even paid lip service to the idea that there was an issue.  Just like they weren't going to say or do anything about this most recent snafu until one of them actually deigned to log into the forums and see the tire fire they created and realize that it was going to be unavoidable.  Their tone deaf reaction to that tire fire of complaints did not help matters.  

They've been doing that a LOT lately too.  Refusing to listen until the dissent in the community is spilling over into toxicity and attacks on them, then responding by barely doing enough to fix the issue followed by pouring gas on the embers they almost put out.  Look at self-damage.  We complained and argued and moaned about how unbalanced it was until they got rid of it.  Then they tacked on a huge AOE nerf to every single AOE weapon in the game to coincide with the removal of self-damage which just traded one issue for another.  I'm honestly starting to wonder how many fingers this Monkey's Paw has.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

That doesn't change what the truth is.  No one's emotions get to effect the truth.  Be mad about something all you want, but when you are faced with truthful accusations about your actions, fix it.  Plenty of actual evidence has been provided for the things that were leveled against them.  It wasn't just some random attack on their character because someone was mad about something unrelated.  Someone was mad about a specific thing they were doing and called them out on it because trying to get them to fix it quietly wasn't getting anywhere.  It was only AFTER being publicly called out that they even paid lip service to the idea that there was an issue.  Just like they weren't going to say or do anything about this most recent snafu until one of them actually deigned to log into the forums and see the tire fire they created and realize that it was going to be unavoidable.  Their tone deaf reaction to that tire fire of complaints did not help matters.

I 100% agree.

4 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

They've been doing that a LOT lately too.  Refusing to listen until the dissent in the community is spilling over into toxicity and attacks on them, then responding by barely doing enough to fix the issue followed by pouring gas on the embers they almost put out.  Look at self-damage.  We complained and argued and moaned about how unbalanced it was until they got rid of it.  Then they tacked on a huge AOE nerf to every single AOE weapon in the game to coincide with the removal of self-damage which just traded one issue for another.  I'm honestly starting to wonder how many fingers this Monkey's Paw has.

Unfortunately yes.  It seems the only way we can get the developers to actually really listen and respond is with threatening their income.  If we don't then they pretty much stick to the same old same old not deviating from whatever they think is the best at the time.  I found that change to be particularly interesting.  I get nerfing the AoE damage on some weapons.  But why literally every AoE weapon?  To "avoid more exploits?"  I get balancing has to be taken into account and all.  But it feels like DE falls in the same pit many devs do where they can't hand out straight buffs/benefits without tacking on downsides preemptively to try and avoid having to make a future balance change on the item again.

[rodzzila]

On 2020-04-02 at 9:26 AM, SneakyErvin said:

How does any of that say the opposite of what you quoted?

On 2020-04-01 at 6:08 PM, Jarriaga said:

Well, there it is:

So Venari's original function of healing stationary targets was intentional.

On 2020-04-02 at 9:10 AM, Jarriaga said:

On 2020-04-02 at 8:37 AM, SneakyErvin said:

And I never implied it wasnt.

Right.....

On 2020-04-01 at 10:10 AM, SneakyErvin said:

But the change IS a fix, since stationary targets have never been intended to be able to be healed with frame abilities.

The dude point out very clear the how in that example. Don't know how you didn't get that with your perfect reading comprehension.

 

On 2020-04-02 at 9:26 AM, SneakyErvin said:

If the intended behavior was for it to work on all static targets in all mission types, then they should have made that clearer in the tip, since Defense is a very specific mode and the wording of the tip puts focus on that mode.

The majority of people here had no problem understanding the tip. Even DE said it was an error. You are the only one that was and still is having a difficult time understanding what the tip meant. 

 

On 2020-04-02 at 9:10 AM, Jarriaga said:

Take this is a lesson in humility.

I would take his advice instead of being a child trying to be right.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, rodzzila said:

The dude point out very clear the how in that example. Don't know how you didn't get that with your perfect reading comprehension.

 

The majority of people here had no problem understanding the tip. Even DE said it was an error. You are the only one that was and still is having a difficult time understanding what the tip meant. 

 

I would take his advice instead of being a child trying to be right.

You went through all that and missed that I had already adressed that specific thing in my post and even said I went out of line?

I also never had a problem understanding it, I was just stating that the tip is very much up for interpretation given the specific grammar and structure of it along with how all other healing works in the game. And it still is because DE have yet to adress what they actual mean, all they've clarified is that yes it was intended for Defense targets so their "fix" was a poor way to describe it. Which I also said earlier, that it was possible that Venari's heal was an exception for static Defense targets. We still dont know if they lump up mobile defense, kuva siphons or excavators in that group or if the intent was just for those found in Defense. If those 3 things arent intended to be included among Defense objectives, then they fixed part of it and nerfed another. If the 3 were intended to be classed the same as Defense objectives then it is a nerf across the board and no fix aswell as having chosen a very poor wording in their tip. Not only because those things arent part of Defense, but because it only applies to parts of the Defense objectives since the "living" objectives are healed no matter if you mark them or not, so the tip does not apply there or it is simply redundant.

So using that wording when only 1/4th of the objectives intended for healing are actually found inside Defense it becomes as inaccurate as it can get. This mostly because they decided to capitalise on the D. They should have likely used something like defendable objectives in such a case.

[CopperBezel]

16 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

The world I come from, people speak plainly.

It's probably not on Earth then. 

In what's DE's real world they have to actually operate in, communicating damn near anything is an invitation to accusations and rage from some proportion of their customer base who feel they're being cheated out of something they're entitled to. The viciousness of this response is just absurd. Like, I was upset by the Wukong Cloudwalker nerf, and repeatedly said so, and that was also presented as a "fix" as if the several months in which it had been used in the interim were an overlooked accident or exploit. I probably overreacted, but it still pretty much killed the frame for me. He really had the one gimmick for my use. 

Khora is in my top 5 frames overall, the most powerful frame I have outright, one of my two most heavily used recently, etc., and it's simply beyond me how it's possible to be concerned about not having the ability to heal excavators and kuva capsules. With one of the two or three best frames for defending those in the first place, no less. There was early and somewhat deliberate misunderstanding in the thread when people started insisting that Venari could no longer heal human targets without testing it or listening to people who had, there was a semantic argument about what qualifies as a "defense target" and whether the tool tip mentioning them was an unconditional promise, and now there's an argument about how DE is so awful for referring to a feature they overlooked as a bug, and what dire implications this holds for their character as human beings.

But like ... I don't think it's possible for there to be any reasonable concern about the change itself, and I honestly think that if you (general you the reader) do, it's a result of any or all of those other factors, because Trinity and Oberon are fine and always have been, y'all....

[Tinklzs]

This is why we make a stand and push back in the hope of change. Looks like DE looked and came up with a conclusion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/fugurk/dev_workshop_healing_defendable_targets/

While I think some numbers need moved around (like some HpS are kind of low, like harrow at 50 per kill vs oberon at a passive 50 for no additional effort) I like the direction this step is going.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Tinklzs

[TheLexiConArtist]

41 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

This is why we make a stand and push back in the hope of change. Looks like DE looked and came up with a conclusion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/fugurk/dev_workshop_healing_defendable_targets/

While I think some numbers need moved around (like some HpS are kind of low, like harrow at 50 per kill vs oberon at a passive 50 for no additional effort) I like the direction this step is going.

It's 'nice' for the ones going from 'did nothing' to 'does something, albeit insignificant'.

It's absolutely horrendous for everything that did something significant and now is going to basically dry out the wet paper bag that defense targets inevitably become, so they're theoretically less easily torn but in practice, paper is still paper and it makes no difference.

 

Vazarin Dash was the most perfect fallback tool for scaling into oppressive/endurance content without having to rely on the same few perfect-guard frames that embody "the only winning move is not to play". It took consistent upkeep - skill and engagement - to weave the defending aspect with playing your frame for whatever you brought it to do.

100 hps is nothing when the enemies are each shooting for 1000 dps and there's 20 of them. 50% damage reduction is practically nothing in the Warframe damage curve. 75% is bare minimum to where you can feel it doing its job. 90% is the common comfort level.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

50 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

This is why we make a stand and push back in the hope of change. Looks like DE looked and came up with a conclusion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/fugurk/dev_workshop_healing_defendable_targets/

While I think some numbers need moved around (like some HpS are kind of low, like harrow at 50 per kill vs oberon at a passive 50 for no additional effort) I like the direction this step is going.

I want to know if warframe ability heals are still going to be affected by power strength when it comes to healing defense targets.  If so, that's a solid buff to Wisp and she honestly didn't even need it.  Most of those things are pretty solid buffs.

I can fully concede that Protective dash is pretty OP right now, for use on anything (not asking for nerfs.  Still super tired of nerfs.) not just defense targets, but knocking it down from where it is to a super meager 100h/s is a pretty huge nerf.  I feel like most of those 100h/s should be 10% max heath per second for 5 seconds instead, and for defense targets where the invulnerability no longer applies, the heal should just be interruptible if it takes damage.  50% of max health healing over 5 seconds if the target takes no damage during, feels like a lot less of a nerf and a lot more like a proper balance pass. 

Even if I don't agree with how hard they went on Vazarin (especially because they shouldn't be nerfing anything in the focus trees when there is so much useless trash in those trees.) their plan moving forward at least feels more like an attempt at balance than it does a spiteful Monkey's Paw wish coming true.  Because it's been feeling like that a lot lately.
 

 

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

snip

Your whole post reads "I can't fathom anyone not feeling, thinking or acting the way that I do, so I can't believe that those people exist." to me.  I was equally as mad about the change as much as I was the dishonesty.  So yes, there was actual concern for the change because I flat out didn't agree with it.  Thankfully, they listened to the majority of us, and not the handful of people who were glad we had less options.

[Tinklzs]

35 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Vazarin Dash was the most perfect fallback tool for scaling into oppressive/endurance content without having to rely on the same few perfect-guard frames that embody "the only winning move is not to play". It took consistent upkeep - skill and engagement - to weave the defending aspect with playing your frame for whatever you brought it to do.

100 hps is nothing when the enemies are each shooting for 1000 dps and there's 20 of them. 50% damage reduction is practically nothing in the Warframe damage curve. 75% is bare minimum to where you can feel it doing its job. 90% is the common comfort level.

I agree, I said I like the direction this step is going towards, but am not behind the numbers they're showing. 

 

[rodzzila]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I also never had a problem understanding it, I was just stating that the tip is very much up for interpretation

I don't think there is much to interpret. The tip says the same as one of Gara ones (an leas you want to call a terminal or Excavator an ally....) yet Gara Splinter Storm still works on this. DE didn't like Venari healing the Oplinks and instead of only change this, they change the whole ability. Don't think DE had this evil intent of doing secret nerf when no one is watch like some looneys are claiming, they most like forgot about they own tip, end of story.

At the end of the day DE already apologies for the misunderstanding and the ability is change so no point in keep arguing dumb semantics.

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, rodzzila said:

I don't think there is much to interpret. The tip says the same as one of Gara ones (an leas you want to call a terminal or Excavator an ally....) yet Gara Splinter Storm still works on this. DE didn't like Venari healing the Oplinks and instead of only change this, they change the whole ability. Don't think DE had this evil intent of doing secret nerf when no one is watch like some looneys are claiming, they most like forgot about they own tip, end of story.

At the end of the day DE already apologies for the misunderstanding and the ability is change so no point in keep arguing dumb semantics.

My point is just that the venari tip refers to a specific mode by name due to the specific capitalisation of the first letter. An ally can be alot of things, and it is highly different throughout the game what skills effect which thing when they are described as interacting with allies.

[(NSW)Riophilip]

On 2020-04-01 at 12:01 AM, Slaytanic93 said:

Following the recent Hotfix, Venari was changed to no longer be able to heal OpLinks, under the justification that OpLinks aren't meant to be affected by any abilities.

So far, so good. It's an event, and supposed to bring some challenge, I guess... No big deal.

But then apparently the possibility of healing defense targets was also removed, any and all defense targets. Why?

This has been a feature since Khora was released, and it was just that, a feature. You guys have listed it as a "fix" to Venari. I am sorry if I come off as rude but it is just ridiculous, I've played this game since 2013 and this is the first time I have been significantly disappointed about a nerf, especially one that comes labeled as a "fix". Please notice this Tip included on the Khora abilities screen. Healing defense objectives has been an intended feature.

There is even less reason to change Venari's stance now. Please reconsider this change. As I said, I have no issues with OpLinks, but removing a long time feature from a Warframe that affects the entire gameplay and not just this particular mission is completely unreasonable. This sort of rationale reminds me of Viver... and what happened to poor trinity... but I'd rather not discuss that.

In the meantime, some other frames remain mostly broken, the general "meta" unchanged, and somehow Venari is the edge that needed to be cut off the equation.

Please, reconsider.

EDIT: It appears my topic in Feedback was merged to another (or many) that was located in general discussion. If you see disconnected discussions or repeating posts, that is the reason.

I expect they just decided it was too broken. Or, the guys who do the coding are not in collaboration with the guys who write the tips - it's possible that they just made a bug and the tip guys thought it was intentional. Heck, it could have just been they gave the fix lister guy a list and it said "venari can no longer heal targets" so he assumed it was a bug. There are a bunch of explanations, and I honestly don't think this was done with some kind of malicious intent. (Just... why?) Though good eye for spotting it, I guess.

 

There are some pretty stupid people here, whining about you bringing it up, but honestly, you even said you didn't mean to sound rude. So I recommend just ignoring those saltbags.

Edited April 4, 2020 by (NSW)Riophilip