Augment Slot When

[(PSN)thegarada]

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Not another one...

DE already stated the reason for this. If you want to change every augment to fit in the Exilus, then you would have to change that Augment to follow the rules that dictate what is and isn't an Exilus worthy Augment.

(And before you come back with 'but the Drift mods', stop, this is the explicit rule for Augments, not other mods.)

Rebecca and Pablo did a live stream and addressed this exact point. If an Augment does not change the base ability at all and only adds a function of movement to it, then it is allowed in the Exilus. Any function that changes what the base ability actually does, in terms of range, damage, status, anything, that costs a regular mod slot.

Which is why Mesa's Waltz, which allows movement but does not affect any of the stats of the ability, is an Exilus, but Assimilate, which allows movement but also changes the size and damage absorb mechanics of the ability, is not.

It's why Escape Velocity, which adds movement speed to Warframes when using Warp, is an Exilus, but Infiltrate, which adds movement speed to Ivara but also allows her to bypass damage from laser gates, is not.

Grendel's new augment changes nothing about the base ability, it only provides a movement function. That's why it's an Exilus.

Campaign to get this ruling overturned and you might get somewhere.

Otherwise... not happening.

That said; the real problem we have with Augments is that it's almost exclusively that the base ability is not worth augmenting (either through being a bad ability, or just being worse than one of the other abilities) that makes them not worth a regular mod slot. The Augments are almost universally a straight-up buff to the abilities themselves, but that doesn't make the ability any more desirable compared the to the others in the kit. For example, Mesa's aug for her 1, never used when you could be augmenting her 2, 3 or 4. Because those abilities are all so much better than her 1, and her 1 is a base bad ability that only a completely over-powered Augment would ever save it.

So it's kind of moot anyway, the Abilities need reworks before the Augments are worth using, and the Augments aren't worth using over each other within the same Warframe.

The entire discussion just ends up circling itself, and nothing will ever get done.

Least of all an Augment slot for Warframes, specifically because DE have said that it's 'not even on the table for discussion'.

I find this argument somewhat mote, when you have something like power drift as an Exilus mod (and it is not the only). This is pure stats inflation, yet when it comes to augments, no, no, they might make one skill slightly stronger. Lets just admit that augments not being exlius is discretionary choice by DE, that has no logical basis, instead of this dance around.

[Tiltskillet]

Instead of fixing augments, abilities, and frames...

...band aid augments get band aid slots. 

I don't know, this seems a little backwards.  😛

I think Augment slots might make sense eventually, but only after augments themselves make sense overall.   Address the actual problems.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I find this argument somewhat mote, when you have something like power drift as an Exilus mod

Okay, I'm just going to repeat this, because you seem to have just skipped it:

Before you come back with 'but the Drift mods', stop, this is the explicit rule for Augments, not other mods.

Other mods are not part of the discussion, it was literally stated on the Devstream that this rule only applies to Augments. It's not some blanket rule about Exilus mods, it's a blanket rule for mods that are Augments.

1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Lets just admit that augments not being exlius is discretionary choice by DE

Admit it? I literally stated it.

It's an arbitrary rule about Augments, not about other mods that fit in the Exilus, made by DE because by their own statement; 'if an Augment changes what the ability does, in terms of stats, damage etc., it costs a mod slot.'

That's the arbitrary rule.

But it's also something that you need to just forget and move on from because Augments in the Exilus would not solve anything.

Could you honestly tell me that you would put Pool of Life in your Exilus slot when you could instead put Vampire Leech or Abating Link in there, while getting a full set of mods for your stats in the other 8 slots? What about Ballistic Bullseye when you could instead put in Waltz, Staggering Shield or Muzzle Flash? Can you say you would put in Piercing Navigator instead of Empowered Quiver, Infiltrate or Concentrated Arrow?

If you actually had the ability to put an Augment in the Exilus, you would still be faced with the same problem we already have:

The Augments are not the actual problem. The problem is that the abilities they Augment are not worth it unless the Augment is base broken levels of power. When the ability that is being Augmented is literally the weakest part of the kit, there's no point in that augment.

What if Ballistic Battery, as a base ability, instead granted you 3 seconds of buffed damage based on the charge you'd built up? This would mean that fast firing weapons, like her Regulators, would get a proper buff, instead of a measly ping of a few thousand extra damage. And weapons like Snipers, with the right build, would be able to get several boosted shots off, but their reload would mean that timing was key. Same with Shotguns, or Beam weapons. The base DPS of weapons (which is what DE balances their power around already) would balance out the ability's effectiveness.

This would mean that Ballistic Bullseye would grant up to 100% extra Status Chance on the shots made in that time, additive on Projectiles, regular method on hitscan. This would be amazing with the current rework to Status. It would be epic. This would be one of the go-to Augments for Mesa.

And what we have done there is address the problem with the ability, not the Augment, because it's the ability that's the actual cause of Ballistic Bullseye being trash.

What if Navigator, instead of putting you into this arbitrary steer-the-projectile function that drains energy, was instead a function that made a single projectile target multiple enemies like Nezha's Chakram? You fire one arrow, or throw one knife, and it bounces back and forth between multiple enemies getting better damage the more times it hits. With this you have a far more useful ability that does not interrupt your method of play in the game, and the Augment, which adds bonus punch-through and adds Crit Chance as the ability progresses, would be a far more viable buff to the ability.

Fixed the ability, the Augment becomes a much more viable buff.

And then again, I don't personally believe that this is the way to go with Augments at all.

Augments should be a function that makes the Warframe better as a trade-off for not being able to use a base stat affecting mod. Nova's Molecular Fission is a great example. You trade off a base stat mod for the ability to maintain your 1 without having to cast and recast it. You use your 4 as normal, and it automatically tops up your 1 to its modded value.

Having Augments only affect the single ability itself is the reason we have so many Augments that aren't worth it. Because the ability they affect is not worth it.

A frame that has all four Augments equipped should legitimately function differently than the base frame, and having even one equipped should be a boost to a specific function that the frame has.

[SenorClipClop]

8 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Adding augment slots(s) would give unpopular augments have a chance to shine

The problem with that is, you and I both know that isn't how players would respond to an Aug slot. The addition of an augment slot would, in an overwhelming majority of players, make an augment "mandatory" for a maxed build, and everyone would just slot the "best" one -- Resonance for Banshee, Eternal War for Valkyr, Despoil for Nekros etc. The augment slot would push an aug there and give us another standard slot, probably for ability-stat Mods, while those unpopular augments would be still be left gathering dust. An augment slot would just make for Full-Build Nekros + Despoil instead of Despoil Nekros, and Soul Survivor would continue to be used by about 3 people.

[SenorClipClop]

4 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

Ok...lets say for instance you put EVERY augment a frame has on. Does it make the frame OP? No because they'd show up here in the complaint section, and you can do that as we speak. So what is wrong with one, ONE slot for a single augment? These Augments arent mesas Peacemaker, they arent Saryns Spores, they arent Equinox's Maim, they're just augments. I mean if you can name one augment where if it was given a free slot it'd be OP and need to be nerfed Ill back off the idea completely.

Augments themselves aren't OP, that's not the issue. The issue is that if we are given an augment slot, that augment moves there and it leaves room for one more standard slot to build with. Essentially an augment slot allows for an extra non-augment on a build that wouldn't otherwise have one, and that's where the powercreep comes in. For example, let's say my balanced (not even minmaxed) Resonance build covers the map in weakspots giving a 9x multiplier at decent range and duration. If an augment slot is added, I get to move Res there and slot more Strength in its place, so my weakspots making lava-lamps of enemies now have a 12x multiplier.

It wouldn't break the game, but it is a big chunk of unnecessary powercreep. Warframe struggles hard enough with delivering compelling gameplay against phenomenal player power, and one more Mod slot would be a step back in that respect.

[SenorClipClop]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Those side-grades we're talking about? There's Octavia's Split Mallet, Zephyr's Funnel Clouds, Atlas' Tectonic Fracture... You lose a function of the ability and gain another. I can't think of many others. Somebody will add something to the list.

How well these fit the "side-grade" category is debatable, but:

• Hallowed Eruption (you only get 1 HG, but it can nuke)
• Venari Bodyguard (unable to resummon Venari but her nine lives work for Khora now)

[rawr1254]

25 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

 

Ok lets say for instance we use this build which is what would be in my opinion maximized for the damage multiplier and survivability etc. in other words an all around build:

http://warframe-builder.com/s/0573e1b4315240f5

Please tell me if I were to place the augment in an augment slot what specific mod could I add to that to make it powercreep that isnt already in the build? The only thing I can think of worth adding to it would be augur reach or Primed Flow in which case is by no means powercreep

Edit: Actually with the drain the only thing that could go there would be the augur, any augur for that matter

Edit2: So in other words I cant put a Transient Fortitude, I can put an overextended(which would lower the multiplier anyway), I can only use something with a drain of 11 or less which would be intensify or overextended but I already have umbral intensify so that's out

Edited April 16, 2020 by rawr1254

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Instead of fixing augments, abilities, and frames...

...band aid augments get band aid slots. 

I don't know, this seems a little backwards.  😛

I think Augment slots might make sense eventually, but only after augments themselves make sense overall.   Address the actual problems.

completely agree. their release of the new 4 bandaids....... why?

[ShortCat]

6 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

Ok...lets say for instance you put EVERY augment a frame has on. Does it make the frame OP?

It doesn't make you OP because they consume a slot for other mods. It is a trade-off.

6 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

So what is wrong with one, ONE slot for a single augment?

Because it frees up a slot for a Blind Rage or P. Continuity or Overextended etc. In some cases one slot can allow to reshuffle the entire build, making it more powerfull in general.

6 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

I mean if you can name one augment where if it was given a free slot it'd be OP and need to be nerfed Ill back off the idea completely.

You named a few in your OP. However, the problem is not only a free augment slot, but the freed slot for anything else. This is blatant power creep, if you do not see an issue with it, we have nothing to discuss. Now you rather explain me why you need to be even more powerfull.

 

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, rawr1254 said:

Ok lets say for instance we use this build which is what would be in my opinion maximized for the damage multiplier and survivability etc. in other words an all around build:

http://warframe-builder.com/s/0573e1b4315240f5

Please tell me if I were to place the augment in an augment slot what specific mod could I add to that to make it powercreep that isnt already in the build? The only thing I can think of worth adding to it would be augur reach or Primed Flow in which case is by no means powercreep

You remove Streamline and replace it with Fleeting, then add one more duration mod like Constitution, so that you have slightly less duration, but massivle improved energy economy as well as KD recovery.
Or you add Umbra Steel Fiber for more defense and offense.
Or you add Sonic Fracure for 100% armor removal.
Or you add Savage Silence to trigger Arcane Ultimatum and 1200 more Armor for your tank build.
Or you add Rolling Guard.
Or Primed Sure Footed.
Or Rage/Hunter Adrenalin.
Or Primed Flow with Arcane Energize to improve your enenrgy economy. And yes, it would be power creep, becasue you can cast 3 times more before you are dry.
 

[rawr1254]

12 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

You remove Streamline and replace it with Fleeting, then add one more duration mod like Constitution, so that you have slightly less duration, but massivle improved energy economy as well as KD recovery.
Or you add Umbra Steel Fiber for more defense and offense.
Or you add Sonic Fracure for 100% armor removal.
Or you add Savage Silence to trigger Arcane Ultimatum and 1200 more Armor for your tank build.
Or you add Rolling Guard.
Or Primed Sure Footed.
Or Rage/Hunter Adrenalin.
Or Primed Flow with Arcane Energize to improve your enenrgy economy. And yes, it would be power creep, becasue you can cast 3 times more before you are dry.
 

How are any of them OP?  Umbral Steel fiber on a banshee isnt gonna do anything, Also to add that mod you'd need two umbra formas which are very scarce right now and probably will always be so if I DID want to put it on it'd be a huge wait and a lot of effort to do it, in which case Id be very satisfied what all my hard work and effort got me.

100% armor removal is trivial especially with the armor rework, and besides that, many frames can do that with ease(Mag, Oberon, Vauban, etc.) and no one complains about them stripping armor.

As for the savage silence combo isnt the whole point of the game to mod to the point you can make the frame/weapon do almost whatever you want it to in terms of becoming tank or a glass cannon?

Rolling guard is very situational and doesnt turn you into a walking Hysteria Valkyr

Sure Footed...OP it is not, no matter what, same with rage etc

And youre worried about 3 casts of sonar? Even now people have builds where you can ltierally cast it almost non stop let alone 3 times. Pizzas exist. And Energize now has a cooldown so it isnt like that's going to proc me to max energy right away.

 

And after all this, this is for a Banshee, one of the least used frame out there. If this could make her want to be used by people how isnt this better than changing the whole frame itself?

Edited April 16, 2020 by rawr1254

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

How well these fit the "side-grade" category is debatable, but:

• Hallowed Eruption (you only get 1 HG, but it can nuke)
• Venari Bodyguard (unable to resummon Venari but her nine lives work for Khora now)

They're pretty good examples. Not sure about Venari because the countdown timer is then decreased by kills, which is something Khora can do very well, and from experience of trying it out I've found that I barely had time to notice the loss of the healing before the cat was back.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

Umbral Steel fiber on a banshee isnt gonna do anything

Actually... Yeah, this is kind of what DE did when they made Tenno Health, Armour and Shields not the same as the enemy versions (in the Revised update).

Since Tenno Armour now has no weakness against things like Puncture, Toxin and Corrosive, our Armour now actually functions as straight Damage Reduction. Banshee now has a base of 100 Armour (which is now the minimum in the game, giving all Warframes a minimum of 25% DR on their health).

Umbral Fibre on the build that they're talking about would give her nearly 50% DR on her health at base, so basically enough to allow her to take a hit or two and exploit her Shield Gating in order to do things like trigger Arcanes or make use of Adaptation for even more survivability. Banshee Prime has 125 base Armour, too, meaning the build they're actually talking about would have just shy of 55% DR. 

11 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

100% armor removal is trivial especially with the armor rework,

Unfortunately true, however not to be overlooked when you consider the changes to Viral. Stripping armour and using Viral status means that every bit of damage you do to that un-armoured Health is now multiplied. You don't have to exploit Bleed procs, you can just hit 1 and use anything + Viral.

11 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

As for the savage silence combo isnt the whole point of the game to mod to the point you can make the frame/weapon do almost whatever you want it to in terms of becoming tank or a glass cannon?

Nooo... the point is to complete objectives for the rewards. How you do that is up to you. Base survivability is one thing, but being able to exploit things like the Savage Silence combo to buff yourself up is one of the ways that you can forego a bit of base survivability and compensate by game play.

11 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

Sure Footed...OP it is not

Please say that after you experience not getting any self-knockdown from things like the Kuva Bramma. It's literally the ability to walk into your own fire now and not be interrupted, which is exactly what DE put in to annoy us. It doesn't kill us anymore, it slows us down, prevents us from doing our jobs, and so on. Having a function to simply ignore that (just like frames like Rhino, Nezha and so on) is absolute bliss.

11 hours ago, rawr1254 said:

And after all this, this is for a Banshee, one of the least used frame out there. If this could make her want to be used by people how isnt this better than changing the whole frame itself?

Very, very simple my friend.

Because changing the whole frame needs to be done by DE. At their pace. Sometime in the future.

We are trying to play the game now, and use frames that are more interesting than 'Hee, spin the mouse over enemies to aim-bot' or 'I held down my 4 at the start of the mission, I can now literally never die to enemies, and if I'm starting to I can throw pocket sand at them'.

By using mods and specific game play styles, we can use all 42 of the Warframes that we have, or at least attempt to accomplish the same goals.

But...

that's not really the point here is it?

The point here is that Augments change what the ability does. And the decision to not have extra slots on Warframes is specifically so that Augments that do change the ability are a trade-off of getting less modded power in favour of a new function for that ability.

Augments are currently not in a good place because they almost exclusively only affect a single ability, and improvements to the Warframe are based on whether the ability itself was even worth it in the first place. Does the Augmented Ability affect any of the game play with that frame, or does it just make a bad ability a little better?

Augments will be worth a regular modding slot if they get reworked so that they improve a function, rather than an ability, on a Warframe. Whether that's by giving ability Synergy (like Nova's Molecular Fission, which allows her to maintain survivability by casting her 4 instead of by repeatedly casting her 1) or because they add a function that the frame doesn't already have (like reliable damage on a Zephyr, or reliable team buffs on a Mirage).

Arguing the toss of whether an Augment Slot is power creep or not, that's not actually something that you should be wasting your time with.

You want Augments to be worth it? Start pitching how Augments could work to improve a Warframe, breathe new life into it or make it do something it doesn't do usually, instead of trying to nit-pick the decision to not allow us to have more than the base number of Slots.

[Sasuda]

So it seems like the biggest reason someone would want augment slots is so they can use more of a frame's augments. The main problem everyone sees with augment slots is the power creep. I do see the merit in it, so it'd be nice if there was a way to make it work.

Power creep valid. But also I think in adding augments with the exception of a very select few, usually comes as an overall loss. So the more you add the worse it is. So the, "Would it be that big of a deal," also seems pretty valid to me.

So I kinda wonder if this augment slot worked very different from other slots in that:
- it can't be polarized, adding any augment takes 6-9 mod points (Even this change to the slot alone accounts for a lot of the powercreep potential)
- It can only be used if another augment is already equipped

Because the main trouble seems to be the balance of it all.
As much as I'd like for every augment to work as a frame changing total retooling of a frame, not only is that actually huge in terms of workload, it's also not really sensible as ability augments. But fixing obvious bad abilities would fix a lot of useless augments. And being able to equip more than one augment could really help their use case and have some more interesting build choices.