Physical damage mods some love?

[Scar.brother.help.me]

How about some love to those? Let it scale from all of the base damage just as elemental mods do, not just that same physical portion.

This will make these mods useful and let us at the very least have an alternative to [Hunter Munitions] if we have weapons with decent status.

At the same time some physical damage types are better across different factions.

Right now it is all about elements and no one cares about physical unless there is very high status slash weapon.

[(XBOX)kr1sPYDonuts]

I don't know what to say, other than I agree. I hope this post gains some traction. 

[Lutesque]

People would just use The Slash mods...

Yes even against shields, since the Tick Rate would stop them from Regenerating.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

People would just use The Slash mods...

Yes even against shields, since the Tick Rate would stop them from Regenerating.

Well now Hunter Munitions is in it's place so what?

[Lutesque]

20 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Well now Hunter Munitions is in it's place so what?

Nothing. 

I like your Idea.... i just wish you would be more forward about it.

Only the S in IPS matters.

Edit:

Infact I would go one step further and ask all the Impact Mods to have the opposite effect.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

This is a great idea and should've been implemented when they removed the 4x proc chance weighting for basic IPS that previously balanced the much larger numbers produced by elemental mods. Status builds usually need to limit their elemental mods if they ever want to see their base slash damage do anything, one of many reasons they generally lag behind crit or hybrid builds. Impact and puncture still need to be made into something that's not useless garbage, like stacking a small amount of extra damage per proc against armor (puncture) or shields (impact), and this could be balanced by a slight nerf to viral to rein in power creep.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

I'm not sure how well this would work with the rest of the modding system. I could see some issues if all three were equipped and all scaled off of base damage.

Now, if they were exclusive with each other (can only have one of impact, puncture, or slash equipped at a time, but multiple of the same type are fine (e.g. primed heavy trauma + collision force)), then maybe it would work.

In fact, if they were exclusive, I would go a step further and add the conclave phys conversion mod effects to the lesser phys mods, while leaving the 120% phys mods as-is, and buffing all of the lesser phys mods to 90% like the melee mods, so as to give a reason to use one or the other instead of always using the 120% phys mods

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Only the Slash mod would be useful because even +120% Puncture scaled off base damage is weaker than +60% Corrosive against Ferrite before procs come into play because of how armor class modifiers work. 

Against 6000 Ferrite armor which is around Sortie 3 level for Heavy Gunners,

• 100 neutral deals 5,
• 100 Impact deals 4,
• 100 Puncture deals 13.5,
• 100 Slash deals 5,
• 100 Corrosive deals 29.

Then you have Slash tics that would deal 35 per tick if base damage was just 100.

In general, IPS mods are still inferior for damage to combined elementals for raw damage even if they scaled off base damage due to the disparity of bonuses against armor.

Instead, the IPS mods should have powerful effects where the IPS bonus is just a bonus except for Slash.

*Piercing Caliber*

• +120% Puncture,
• +1.2 Punch-through
• 12% of damage converted to True damage

*Crash Course*

• +120% Impact,
• +60% Impact per stack of Stagger (Impact Proc)

*Fanged Fusillade*

• +120% Slash
• +60% Status Duration

[Andele3025]

On 2020-08-06 at 11:54 AM, Lutesque said:

People would just use The Slash mods...

Yes even against shields, since the Tick Rate would stop them from Regenerating.

Just for note, currently around 3/5ths of the corpus enemies ignore dots for shield regen stop/delay (including basic and basic elite crewmen), around 1/5th have bugged shields (like mech or terra crewmen) that cant regen at all and the last 1/5th are actual regular player like shields (terra trenchers for example).

On 2020-08-06 at 2:03 PM, Lutesque said:

Nothing. 

I like your Idea.... i just wish you would be more forward about it.

Only the S in IPS matters.

Edit:

Infact I would go one step further and ask all the Impact Mods to have the opposite effect.

Objectively not, puncture would/is the most efficient as a pseudo elemental already. Slashs dot damage doesnt care about modded slash and is only slotted when youre at % proc weighting breakpoints if you want optimal damage output, which would remain the same even if it scaled off all stats (effectively just being a "i dont have a riven with I/P negative so i use this worse option instead) since physical weighting bonus got removed.

On 2020-08-06 at 4:32 PM, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Only the Slash mod would be useful because even +120% Puncture scaled off base damage is weaker than +60% Corrosive against Ferrite before procs come into play because of how armor class modifiers work. 

Against 6000 Ferrite armor which is around Sortie 3 level for Heavy Gunners,

• 100 neutral deals 5,
• 100 Impact deals 4,
• 100 Puncture deals 13.5,
• 100 Slash deals 5,
• 100 Corrosive deals 29.

Then you have Slash tics that would deal 35 per tick if base damage was just 100.

In general, IPS mods are still inferior for damage to combined elementals for raw damage even if they scaled off base damage due to the disparity of bonuses against armor.

Instead, the IPS mods should have powerful effects where the IPS bonus is just a bonus except for Slash.

*Piercing Caliber*

• +120% Puncture,
• +1.2 Punch-through
• 12% of damage converted to True damage

*Crash Course*

• +120% Impact,
• +60% Impact per stack of Stagger (Impact Proc)

*Fanged Fusillade*

• +120% Slash
• +60% Status Duration

You're ignoring the fact that modding for elementals impacts net dps, modding for puncture has the highest of the physical damage types effect and slash enemy resists more than offset the weighting to proc boost slash gets unless you're using melee and hitting """breakpoint""". Why youd suggest make puncture even better while leaving the rest trash instead of just making them work like actual elemental mods (which mind you, would still have no effect on how much slash procs deal damage) makes little sense, especially by making its mod a 2.5 statted riven.

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Objectively not, puncture would/is the most efficient as a pseudo elemental already. Slashs dot damage doesnt care about modded slash and is only slotted when youre at % proc weighting breakpoints if you want optimal damage output, which would remain the same even if it scaled off all stats (effectively just being a "i dont have a riven with I/P negative so i use this worse option instead) since physical weighting bonus got removed.

I have no Idea what this means...

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Just for note, currently around 3/5ths of the corpus enemies ignore dots for shield regen stop/delay (including basic and basic elite crewmen), around 1/5th have bugged shields (like mech or terra crewmen) that cant regen at all and the last 1/5th are actual regular player like shields (terra trenchers for example).

I've noticed no such behaviour....

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

7 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Just for note, currently around 3/5ths of the corpus enemies ignore dots for shield regen stop/delay (including basic and basic elite crewmen), around 1/5th have bugged shields (like mech or terra crewmen) that cant regen at all and the last 1/5th are actual regular player like shields (terra trenchers for example).

Objectively not, puncture would/is the most efficient as a pseudo elemental already. Slashs dot damage doesnt care about modded slash and is only slotted when youre at % proc weighting breakpoints if you want optimal damage output, which would remain the same even if it scaled off all stats (effectively just being a "i dont have a riven with I/P negative so i use this worse option instead) since physical weighting bonus got removed.

You're ignoring the fact that modding for elementals impacts net dps, modding for puncture has the highest of the physical damage types effect and slash enemy resists more than offset the weighting to proc boost slash gets unless you're using melee and hitting """breakpoint""". Why youd suggest make puncture even better while leaving the rest trash instead of just making them work like actual elemental mods (which mind you, would still have no effect on how much slash procs deal damage) makes little sense, especially by making its mod a 2.5 statted riven.

Puncture is the best physical damage type for raw damage due to armor class modifiers, but in the end it's simply a inferior Corrosive with essentially half the strength due to how armor class modifiers work. A 60% Toxin mod would give you more damage on a Corrosive weapon against Heavy Gunners than 120% Puncture. At best it would outperform that 60% Toxin against neutral enemies. The only value it has over Corrosive is that it can be built alongside Viral and Radiation while Corrosive cannot with the exception of certain weapons. Not to mention how Puncture procs would dilute your proc pool.

A 120% Slash mod that scales off base damage would make any weapon have Slash as proc priority #1. Throw in the 60/60s for Viral and at worst, it will be equal in priority to Viral. It would be a more generic alternative to Hunter Munitions for weapons with any decent status chance.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Just for note, currently around 3/5ths of the corpus enemies ignore dots for shield regen stop/delay (including basic and basic elite crewmen), around 1/5th have bugged shields (like mech or terra crewmen) that cant regen at all and the last 1/5th are actual regular player like shields (terra trenchers for example).

Objectively not, puncture would/is the most efficient as a pseudo elemental already. Slashs dot damage doesnt care about modded slash and is only slotted when youre at % proc weighting breakpoints if you want optimal damage output, which would remain the same even if it scaled off all stats (effectively just being a "i dont have a riven with I/P negative so i use this worse option instead) since physical weighting bonus got removed.

You're ignoring the fact that modding for elementals impacts net dps, modding for puncture has the highest of the physical damage types effect and slash enemy resists more than offset the weighting to proc boost slash gets unless you're using melee and hitting """breakpoint""". Why youd suggest make puncture even better while leaving the rest trash instead of just making them work like actual elemental mods (which mind you, would still have no effect on how much slash procs deal damage) makes little sense, especially by making its mod a 2.5 statted riven.

Puncture is the best physical damage type for raw damage due to armor class modifiers, but in the end it's simply a inferior Corrosive with essentially half the strength due to how armor class modifiers work. A 60% Toxin mod would give you more damage on a Corrosive weapon against Heavy Gunners than 120% Puncture. At best it would outperform that 60% Toxin against neutral enemies. The only value it has over Corrosive is that it can be built alongside Viral and Radiation while Corrosive cannot with the exception of certain weapons. Not to mention how Puncture procs would dilute your proc pool.

A 120% Slash mod that scales off base damage would make any weapon have Slash as proc priority #1. Throw in the 60/60s for Viral and at worst, it will be equal in priority to Viral. It would be a more generic alternative to Hunter Munitions for weapons with any decent status chance. Brian

[Aldain]

Can we actually just get Impact and Puncture to actually not be something you want in the negatives?

[Andele3025]

44 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Puncture is the best physical damage type for raw damage due to armor class modifiers, but in the end it's simply a inferior Corrosive with essentially half the strength due to how armor class modifiers work. A 60% Toxin mod would give you more damage on a Corrosive weapon against Heavy Gunners than 120% Puncture. At best it would outperform that 60% Toxin against neutral enemies. The only value it has over Corrosive is that it can be built alongside Viral and Radiation while Corrosive cannot with the exception of certain weapons. Not to mention how Puncture procs would dilute your proc pool.

Except thats not true because resists/weaknesses on shield armor and hp types are effectively efficiency multipliers and stripping the DR is up to the last point a near exponential damage increase (much like how each % of dr when we are stacking it is worth more effective survivability). For a target like heavy gunner you would require a circa 180% status chance gun for 60% toxin to be worth more than 120% puncture assuming the weapon has no of either element already.

44 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

A 120% Slash mod that scales off base damage would make any weapon have Slash as proc priority #1. Throw in the 60/60s for Viral and at worst, it will be equal in priority to Viral. It would be a more generic alternative to Hunter Munitions for weapons with any decent status chance.

Yes and? It would still be scaling off base damage thus no different than doing what -impact or -puncture rivens are doing (aka something p2w gacha exclusive S#&$ effectively) and wouldnt increase the slash proc damage so of proportionally very little concern. And it wouldnt alt to HM since HM lets you ignore status chance as a stat while since status rework it no longer prevents status from proccing slash when it triggers, it would merely add a 3-4 mod requirement with it and status mods.

33 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Can we actually just get Impact and Puncture to actually not be something you want in the negatives?

This, impact procs are best when alone and not tied to impact on melee for safety (tho thats just because its compensating for DE first removing hyper armor completely and then innate staggers from a lot of melee) while on a gun you're likely to kill a target before it triggers the parazon opening at the health threshold. Making first or last/10th proc increase hp % for trigger to 25% up from 5% might actually give a build path for parazon kills how machetes could on heavy attack if their heavy on its own werent better than the finisher in most cases (same for daggers but using either aint that good compared to just normal attacks in their case).
Puncture procs meanwhile need a offensive factor like reducing enemy puncthrough cost/meatyness/thicc value by 10% per stack.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Except thats not true because resists/weaknesses on shield armor and hp types are effectively efficiency multipliers and stripping the DR is up to the last point a near exponential damage increase (much like how each % of dr when we are stacking it is worth more effective survivability). For a target like heavy gunner you would require a circa 180% status chance gun for 60% toxin to be worth more than 120% puncture assuming the weapon has no of either element already.

Yes and? It would still be scaling off base damage thus no different than doing what -impact or -puncture rivens are doing (aka something p2w gacha exclusive S#&$ effectively) and wouldnt increase the slash proc damage so of proportionally very little concern. And it wouldnt alt to HM since HM lets you ignore status chance as a stat while since status rework it no longer prevents status from proccing slash when it triggers, it would merely add a 3-4 mod requirement with it and status mods.

This, impact procs are best when alone and not tied to impact on melee for safety (tho thats just because its compensating for DE first removing hyper armor completely and then innate staggers from a lot of melee) while on a gun you're likely to kill a target before it triggers the parazon opening at the health threshold. Making first or last/10th proc increase hp % for trigger to 25% up from 5% might actually give a build path for parazon kills how machetes could on heavy attack if their heavy on its own werent better than the finisher in most cases (same for daggers but using either aint that good compared to just normal attacks in their case).
Puncture procs meanwhile need a offensive factor like reducing enemy puncthrough cost/meatyness/thicc value by 10% per stack.

When I mean 60% Toxin mod, I mean an extra 60% Corrosive on a weapon where you have already built Corrosive. +120% Puncture is marginally inferior to +60% Corrosive in the case of a Sortie level Heavy Gunners with 6000 Ferrite armor. 

[Andele3025]

56 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

When I mean 60% Toxin mod, I mean an extra 60% Corrosive on a weapon where you have already built Corrosive. +120% Puncture is marginally inferior to +60% Corrosive in the case of a Sortie level Heavy Gunners with 6000 Ferrite armor. 

Thats not relevant in the same way that a unmodded weapon aint relevant since if you already put on 2 elemental mods, the 3rd one needs to (currently) be heat to be relatively efficient (or possibly if we account just the survival value, cold or electric) and thats entirely because heat on its own breaks trend of stacks having independent duration.
Mods need to be effective on its own in a neutral context, which is why a e.g. argument if a melee weapon is better by putting on quickening with prime fury is better than one that has berserker and spoiled strike wouldnt be relevant if the berserk spoiled strike weapon has a unique passive where it gets 30% attack speed.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Thats not relevant in the same way that a unmodded weapon aint relevant since if you already put on 2 elemental mods, the 3rd one needs to (currently) be heat to be relatively efficient (or possibly if we account just the survival value, cold or electric) and thats entirely because heat on its own breaks trend of stacks having independent duration.
Mods need to be effective on its own in a neutral context, which is why a e.g. argument if a melee weapon is better by putting on quickening with prime fury is better than one that has berserker and spoiled strike wouldnt be relevant if the berserk spoiled strike weapon has a unique passive where it gets 30% attack speed.

Right now, the hypothetical 120 % IPS mods that scale off Base Damage compete for the 3rd elemental slot, or the only elemental slot. If 2 slots are available for elements, you would never choose to use an IPS mod + base element. You would always go for a combined element or double down on Toxin if you are facing Corpus. 

[Andele3025]

32 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Right now, the hypothetical 120 % IPS mods that scale off Base Damage compete for the 3rd elemental slot, or the only elemental slot. If 2 slots are available for elements, you would never choose to use an IPS mod + base element. You would always go for a combined element or double down on Toxin if you are facing Corpus. 

You already dont have a 3rd elemental slot most of the time (for primary vigilante and/or pshred/vile/spazz use depends on guns fire rate so id average it up to 2 slot choice, ammo pool and kill reliability, secondaries actually can have 3 slots if you hit shield gate with BR/run with key, melee barely even has 1.5 slots where its a player preference of arcane efficiency/if youd wanna lost a slot for arcane strike over pfury to have 2 elementals), you need only look at low crit+crit damage non-headshot bonus primaries or for secondaries get rid of Prime Heated Charge for the hypothetical elemental mods to actually be better instead of merely ok enough rivals to proper elemental setups.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

On 2020-08-06 at 3:03 PM, Lutesque said:

Nothing. 

I like your Idea.... i just wish you would be more forward about it.

Only the S in IPS matters.

Well, it will just be similar to Elemental damage types and procs: we use ~1/3 of all the elements 🙂

[Twilight-Knight]

Physical mods does need attention. I've tried to modify a lots of weapon that have it's main physical element and equal physical element and all physical mods workout not well. Although I do have to say it's a complicate matter to revise the physical element and mods but they do really need buffs.

[ArcKnight9202]

This is probably a bad idea, but maybe they could create special combined physical statuses only when those mods are equipped? The mods already scale poorly so the effects could be decent to compensate. Especially if you have weapons that are heavily weighted around one stat and not the other two.

I can't really come up with good thematic statuses. Feel free to add some if the idea appeals to you.

As things are, and the way statuses are now weighted(as in not at all), there's no hope for these things. I used to use a Slash mod on my Tigris Prime before the update. Now? I can't find anything that makes that gun satisfying to use. That was already an extremely niche circumstance and it's even less justifiable now.