The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Sahansral]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb elZach:

Roar is heavily overrated in this conversation. The instances of gameplay where too little damage is a problem for frames is extremely niche compared to the overall gameplay loop of warframe. Doesnt matter much of the time if you overkill a thing by a magnitude of 2 or 20.

Same observation, different conclusion.
Too much damage is already the problem.

Stacking damage allows a larger pool of players (in comparison to now) to achieve combinations that heavily diminish the gameplay loop for the other three teammates.
In some missions you can hardly cast for example energy vampire because the enemies get evaporated so fast. FFS, we have a frame that needs to land headshots!
With Roar you you can build combos with roughly the same damage like now but even greater range (especially for frames that don't require LOS).
Why using weapons that need aiming when you get faster results with AOE-weapons like Ignis and Roar?

* It's robs Rhino of its most prominent role.
* It's THE most optimal damage boost for most frames by large margin, making the other subsumed abilities suboptimal, taking variety away instead offering it.
We've seen countless times, whenever choice is given, raw power gets taken any day.
* Where's the content that requires a damage boost by 100%?

Where's the benefit of putting Roar into the pool that counterweighs this hassle?

[selig_fay]

Just now, linn4you said:

it´s at least available for all warframes

Not really. This is good for Wukong. This is very good for Inaros. And it's just perfect for Ash.

But if you set this to a thin frame, you'll get a dead pet instead of dead enemies, so I wouldn't say it works well for everyone.

1 minute ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

I use it! So please, refrain from posting this info too much as popular things get nerfed! But yes. It works

I don't think people will give up on smeeta. By the way, why isn't this cat nerfed yet?

[CopperBezel]

I still prefer consistent crit bonuses to randomly getting an extra argon crystal now and then.

5 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Where's the benefit of putting Roar into the pool that counterweighs this hassle?

The fact that it isn't Spectrorage or Airburst, really. Arguably it's not that unique, especially with Nourish Strike in the pool. But Charge is a really questionable ability, Iron Skin is signature, and Stomp is an ult. I think breaking the no-ults rule for Rhino (Rhino and Nezha have always been frames with two 3s) and using Stomp would have been equally acceptable and had a similar effect on variety, though. 

[IRVoidGuru]

12 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

 

I don't think people will give up on smeeta. By the way, why isn't this cat nerfed yet?

Due to it taking % away from carrier p and also to its unreliability. You sometimes get the buff you want with no control. The mark however is very consistent.

[(NSW)greyknite]

Couldnt equinox's rest & rage have gotten the same modification as quiver and air burst?

I understand chromas ward being tied to energy color (it always has been) but equinox has always been able to use either one she wants.

..Seems a little lazy to me.

[selig_fay]

Just now, (NSW)greyknite said:

I understand chromas ward being tied to energy color (it always has been) but equinox has always been able to use either one she wants.

..Seems a little lazy to me.

This is the original equinox mechanics. Equinox can not use two abilities at once, it must switch forms. But equinox also gets a form at the beginning of the mission, depending on the color of the energy. But you can't change your form if you not Equinox.

[(NSW)greyknite]

3 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

This is the original equinox mechanics. Equinox can not use two abilities at once, it must switch forms. But equinox also gets a form at the beginning of the mission, depending on the color of the energy. But you can't change your form if you not Equinox.

Equinox has to change forms to use the abilities of her other form, yes.

The other frames arent equinox and cant change form, yes.

But equinox can switch forms at any time to use any of her abilities, the energy color thing was just an extra passive to determine wich form u start missions on.

To limit this ability to only one of its sides and have us switch a warframes energy istead of adding a cycling feature or a diferent input method like the have for other abilities seems very lazy to me.

If they are afraid of people abusing both sides of this ability, then they arent noticing that lull is a better rest and roar is a better rage, meaning this ability will almost never be applied to other warframes, since there are directly better options.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)greyknite said:

Couldnt equinox's rest & rage have gotten the same modification as quiver and air burst?

I understand chromas ward being tied to energy color (it always has been) but equinox has always been able to use either one she wants.

..Seems a little lazy to me.

Quiver have 4 modes in a mission to it that why it was limited. While rest and rage(2 options) you could only get 1 or the other. Ward is similar only 1 effect can be used in mission but gave 4 options.

[Bricks]

Just to make sure it is remembered as a feature that exists, if we replace an ability on Excalibur Umbra, his AI form will use the new ability, right?
It would be a shame if it couldn't use them at all. I really wanna try swapping abilities out for him to use with my Umbra/Spoiler Mode tag-team build.
I imagine he probably has the capability to use other abilities, assuming he just uses normal specter AI. I just hope it is remembered to set him up to work.

[Bricks]

Just to make sure it is remembered as a feature that exists, if we replace an ability on Excalibur Umbra, his AI form will use the new ability, right?
It would be a shame if it couldn't use them at all. I really wanna try swapping abilities out for him to use with my Umbra/Spoiler Mode tag-team build.
I imagine he probably has the capability to use other abilities, assuming he just uses normal specter AI. I just hope it is remembered to set him up to work.

Please excuse this double post. I think something bugged out. Feel free to delete this duplicate.

[(XBOX)Baron Kit]

7 hours ago, selig_fay said:

You omit many things.

For example, Chroma acts like a Serration. But you also forget that Serration is also affected by elemental mods and multishot and crit. Thus, Chroma simply refuses to Serration and significantly increase its damage with the help of other mods.

For example:

100 + 165% (Serration) + 550% (Chroma) = 715 * 1.9 (multishot) = 1358.5+ 90% (elemental) = 2581.5

100 + 550% (Chroma) = 650* 1.9 (multishot) = 1235+ 90% (elemental)  +90%(elemental)  = 3458

Shock Trooper acts the same way, only it is affected by Serration, multishot, and crit. And here, too, you can put less elemental damage in favor of other characteristics.

100 + 165% (Serration)  = 265* 1.9 (multishot) = 503.5 + 90% (elemental) + 200% (Shock Trooper) = 1963.65

100 + 165% (Serration)  = 265* 2.5 (multishot) = 662.5 + 200% (Shock Trooper) = 1987.5

Yes, Roar works very simply.

100 + 165% (Serration)  = 265* 1.9 (multishot) = 503.5 + 90% (elemental) = 956,65 * 2 (Roar +100%) = 1913.3

All this taking into account the fact that the all frames has 200% strength. 

 

But that means literally nothing as you just proved my point further. And truthfully I don't believe you did that math right because when  I've done everything I can roar still out does vex armor. No idea on shocktrooper though.

 

Vex armor isn't being given out Willy nilly and you also (maybe on purpose) forget roar works on abilities aswell so even if you're correct. You ommited the most important part. And roar doubles your slash procs aswell but I guess we're gonna forget that too.

[CopperBezel]

No, that should be correct for Vex Armor (Fury) at 200% power strength. 

Roar is a faction modifier and so does get the double dip on all procs, which is why Rhino mains love Hunter Munitions. I honestly think that's a bigger deal than applying to ability damage. There are some very good direct damage abilities around now, and those that are based on collecting weapon damage will effectively be double-dipping on the multiplier too, since the damage collected will be increased, and then the damage that translates into will be as well - again, this is going to play very well with Breach Surge.

I don't think anyone's questioning that it's a good ability, though.

[failedtodiet]

So... how long for this system to become stable or will it be a Riven deja vu? Because i already know that several abilities will get nerfed in the next update.

[Pizzarugi]

3 hours ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

DE stated no ulti and no theme abilities. So that is one each leaving half of a kit to work with. Now for years iv seen iron skin as his skill. That being said, would rhino users rather give up only charge? Is it that you want your weakest foot forward? Would iron skin be more acceptable than Roar?

 Same thing for valk. Her warcry is just a speed buff and armor increase. Would you rather only give up ripline? Or are valkitty users willing to give up paralysis?

When frames like wisp and ash are also giving up ther best skills why should yours be treated with kitty gloves?is it your intention to keep your frame's individuality to the point that it becomes a jk to the new update.  Or do you want your best foot forward?

P.S. if they remove roar it won't matter,  rage is basically the same thing but requires recasting.

 

There's plenty of other skills that are useless gimmicks that will see little to no use such as Well of Life. The fact of the matter is that skills like Roar, Rest/Rage, Eclipse, etc will be top picks to give significant damage boosts and very few are going to bother with the others.

What's a Saryn going to take: Shuriken or Roar? What's a player using meta weapons going to get more use out of: Nidus's Larva or Eclipse?

Sure there will be a few frames that will use these gimmick abilities like a Limbo taking Nidus's Larva in order to pull enemies into Cataclysm, but these picks will be vastly smaller to the amount of people screaming "MOAR DPS".

[(XBOX)Baron Kit]

52 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

No, that should be correct for Vex Armor (Fury) at 200% power strength. 

Roar is a faction modifier and so does get the double dip on all procs, which is why Rhino mains love Hunter Munitions. I honestly think that's a bigger deal than applying to ability damage. There are some very good direct damage abilities around now, and those that are based on collecting weapon damage will effectively be double-dipping on the multiplier too, since the damage collected will be increased, and then the damage that translates into will be as well - again, this is going to play very well with Breach Surge.

I don't think anyone's questioning that it's a good ability, though.

Well I won't argue further as the math did seem right. But without self dmg how do you instantly build it up these days? Like am I missing something? 

 

Regardless I just think roar is an outlier amongst all of these abilities and think it will outshine so much regardless of how many people say it won't. Everytime something can be run of the mill easy to use and good every one over uses it. Catchmoon and Brama are proof of that. It's genuinely the only hamper to this system imo as Idk why chroma didn't give up vex armor then as elemental ward is genuinely tied to his passive harder than any of his abilities so there for should be signature. 

 

I hate that I sound like a jerk through text it's not my intention. It's just something that I think will harm an otherwise amazing system

[IRVoidGuru]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

There's plenty of other skills that are useless gimmicks that will see little to no use such as Well of Life. The fact of the matter is that skills like Roar, Rest/Rage, Eclipse, etc will be top picks to give significant damage boosts and very few are going to bother with the others.

What's a Saryn going to take: Shuriken or Roar? What's a player using meta weapons going to get more use out of: Nidus's Larva or Eclipse?

Sure there will be a few frames that will use these gimmick abilities like a Limbo taking Nidus's Larva in order to pull enemies into Cataclysm, but these picks will be vastly smaller to the amount of people screaming "MOAR DPS".

And what is wrong with that? 

When this already exists in team synergy, why would it be worse to need less players to do the same things we can already do?

And lastly,  how will other players making these "top picks" affect you personally during your game play?

[Pizzarugi]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

And what is wrong with that? 

When this already exists in team synergy, why would it be worse to need less players to do the same things we can already do?

The big difference is that you need a teammate to actually make this happen. Now you no longer need Rhino or Mirage, you can retire them to the dustbin of your inventory. Teammates bringing said frames will be of no use to you since you already have their powers.

Ergo: MOAR DPS.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

And lastly,  how will other players making these "top picks" affect you personally during your game play?

Considering I like playing public missions and DE keeps adding new content that continues to invalidate the need for teamwork such as this? A lot.

[IRVoidGuru]

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

The big difference is that you need a teammate to actually make this happen. Now you no longer need Rhino or Mirage, you can retire them to the dustbin of your inventory. Teammates bringing said frames will be of no use to you since you already have their powers.

Ergo: MOAR DPS.

Considering I like playing public missions and DE keeps adding new content that continues to invalidate the need for teamwork such as this? A lot.

Indeed it removes the need for me to force another player to use a frame that they do not want to, with a build that they can't stand just so i can have a buff. 

As for "A lot". can you elaborate?

[(XBOX)Th3BelovedSaint]

will we still be able to remove the cysts? Do we have to go in the room with the frame we want to update? Or could we let Nidus be King of the Lab?

[Pizzarugi]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Indeed it removes the need for me to force another player to use a frame that they do not want to, with a build that they can't stand just so i can have a buff.

You're also forgetting the people who want to bring the frames because they like being helpful or feeling needed. I have spoken with people, both friends of mine and comments I've seen on the forum, who say they exist to act as a buffer for their teammates since they're not all that skilled at the game (or they simply enjoy the passive playstyle). Can't be either of those if you took the power they could've helped you with.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

As for "A lot". can you elaborate?

I like to play any frame that doesn't boil down to "press one button to win the game" which tends to be CC, support, or tank. In this scenario, I play Rhino so I can Roar to apply a multiplicative strength modifier to my teammates. If I wanted to play a tank, Revenant and Nidus are far more superior. By taking away the one big thing I offered to the team and letting everyone have it, I have no reason to play Rhino.

A similar problem arises with Mirage. Why would I bother taking her and building around her Eclipse augment to buff my teammates when they can also use it (and probably ignore the augment)? I'd be better off defaulting to playing her selfishly and foregoing the augment in favor of MOAR DPS.

[Pizzarugi]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Th3BelovedSaint said:

will we still be able to remove the cysts? Do we have to go in the room with the frame we want to update? Or could we let Nidus be King of the Lab?

Considering the large amount of complaints I've seen since its inception, DE will probably keep a way to clear the cysts so it doesn't ruin your fashionframe. I assume this, and not outright remove the whole thing altogether, because cysts are needed for creating Helminth Chargers.

[(XBOX)Th3BelovedSaint]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

And what is wrong with that? 

When this already exists in team synergy, why would it be worse to need less players to do the same things we can already do?

And lastly,  how will other players making these "top picks" affect you personally during your game play?

No point in wasting the effort. This guy has a severe hatred for DPS frames and apparently anything that DE changes that would cause him to "Change" his play style. The only player types I typically hear howl this loudly about "nuke frames" are people that only want to run Nidus. Cannot tell you the number of times I have had a Nidus  complain that I was "stealing his stacks" and that was with me running Ivara! He posts non stop in the forums and all of them I have seen are complaints about the evil ultimates. I tried suggesting playing the Steel Path, guaranteed no one button nuke. His response? "Nobody plays that unless they want the cosmetics!" So, he is a self licking icecream cone. Nothing is a good answer unless it is his answer. If everyone would ignore him, maybe he would go away. I want to see how it plays. Looks fun.

[Pizzarugi]

34 minutes ago, (XB1)Th3BelovedSaint said:

No point in wasting the effort. This guy has a severe hatred for DPS frames and apparently anything that DE changes that would cause him to "Change" his play style. The only player types I typically hear howl this loudly about "nuke frames" are people that only want to run Nidus. Cannot tell you the number of times I have had a Nidus  complain that I was "stealing his stacks" and that was with me running Ivara! He posts non stop in the forums and all of them I have seen are complaints about the evil ultimates. I tried suggesting playing the Steel Path, guaranteed no one button nuke. His response? "Nobody plays that unless they want the cosmetics!" So, he is a self licking icecream cone. Nothing is a good answer unless it is his answer. If everyone would ignore him, maybe he would go away. I want to see how it plays. Looks fun.

You've provided no arguments except baseless accusations against my character and have constantly dismissed any criticisms about the prevalence of nuke frames invalidating the need for teamwork, both from myself and other commenters here on this very thread, by handwaving them away with "#*!% off to solo" or "Go waste time looking for people in recruit chat" which is not a valid response.

And then you proceed to accuse me of being a Nidus main who accuses others of stealing stacks. On what grounds? Nothing. You're just looking for whatever excuses you can find to write me off as someone who has an irrational hatred to DPS frames like a certain forum user who has an irrational hatred to Revenant.

Nothing you've said has been in good faith, you just don't want to hear people talk about how much of an impact DPS frames have on team play, specifically invalidating them to the point the only thing you need in a team comp is more damage.

34 minutes ago, (XB1)Th3BelovedSaint said:

I tried suggesting playing the Steel Path, guaranteed no one button nuke. His response? "Nobody plays that unless they want the cosmetics!"

And I gave you an answer which you continued to dismiss anyway, because it's not the answer YOU wanted.

Yes, Steel Path is pointless beyond MR fodder or you want to farm Kuva. I like playing public matchmaking, because I enjoy team play. Nobody's playing Steel Path, meaning I'm stuck playing it on solo. This is in no way a valid response to how broken nuke frames are to the rest of the game.

And nothing you've said takes away from the fact that giving frames like Mesa or Saryn the Roar ability is going to make them even more busted.

Because you've done nothing except attack me and make false claims about my character, I'm just going to be the bigger man and put you on ignore.

[IRVoidGuru]

13 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You're also forgetting the people who want to bring the frames because they like being helpful or feeling needed. I have spoken with people, both friends of mine and comments I've seen on the forum, who say they exist to act as a buffer for their teammates since they're not all that skilled at the game (or they simply enjoy the passive playstyle). Can't be either of those if you took the power they could've helped you with.

These  Players will be able to find new support methods using this system if they are willing to put in the effort.

Nothing in this system stops support play, it changes it .  To quote my friend alad V "market forces dictate that you must evolve or die".

Quote

I like to play any frame that doesn't boil down to "press one button to win the game" which tends to be CC, support, or tank. In this scenario, I play Rhino so I can Roar to apply a multiplicative strength modifier to my teammates. If I wanted to play a tank, Revenant and Nidus are far more superior. By taking away the one big thing I offered to the team and letting everyone have it, I have no reason to play Rhino.

So don't play Rhino. Or make your roar better by adding "empower" and laughing at lower roar users 

Quote

A similar problem arises with Mirage. Why would I bother taking her and building around her Eclipse augment to buff my teammates when they can also use it (and probably ignore the augment)? I'd be better off defaulting to playing her selfishly and foregoing the augment in favor of MOAR DPS.

Well, her 1, her 2 , her 2 augment. All good reasons to play her.

As for total Eclipse Mirage. I can't argue this point without statistics but I wonder,  In the last year how many Mirage's entered a mission compared to mirages that entered a mission with total eclipse. If the number is under 10% usage then perhaps its not worth playing a camp mentality buff augment that forces me to waste a mod slot.

[IRVoidGuru]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Th3BelovedSaint said:

No point in wasting the effort. This guy has a severe hatred for DPS frames and apparently anything that DE changes that would cause him to "Change" his play style. The only player types I typically hear howl this loudly about "nuke frames" are people that only want to run Nidus. Cannot tell you the number of times I have had a Nidus  complain that I was "stealing his stacks" and that was with me running Ivara! He posts non stop in the forums and all of them I have seen are complaints about the evil ultimates. I tried suggesting playing the Steel Path, guaranteed no one button nuke. His response? "Nobody plays that unless they want the cosmetics!" So, he is a self licking icecream cone. Nothing is a good answer unless it is his answer. If everyone would ignore him, maybe he would go away. I want to see how it plays. Looks fun.

Perhaps you're right. I'll have to look into that. 

My main goal in responding here is to hopefully  Change the narrow minded mentality that a lot of players seem to be having about "what 1 power my frame as giving up" . Rather then the broad minded mentality of the 40+ possibilities that they can gain.