Balance is not a warframe concept

[killerJoke66]

I for one dont advocate any forcements on how people should play in pubs , moreso i was referring to how the overall unspoken systems work regardless of whether or not i approve of how things go currently.  if there was to be no communication in public settings , which people hardly ever speak doing public tridolons ,fissure missons or sorties and etc . , the most efficent way will always overshine over the other so it boils down to the devs choice , though by lowering the aoe in other words efficency it will also slow down the mission complete timer , and that is the downside to it  , 
Personally im already saturated with warframe , i tasted most stuff out of it and i would be okay with whatever path the devs take but still im more skewd towards not killing aoe in the game 

[_12K]

Ok, ok, first, hello everyone, how ya'll going in this pandemic ?

Soo, erm...let's get to the point

I'll try to make it simple because most of what I'll say here it's from another post that I'll made...someday like, I have a full on DOCUMENT for that S#&$, don't think I'll be finishing it any time soon tho'

Soo, what exactly is the impact of "balance" in the game ? Well, quite a lot if you ask me, you see, games, in their nature, always require a level of engagement from the "players", being it a physical game or a video-game doesn't matter, what matters is that some level of "skill" comes into play, that skill being "how good can you perform x task", being "x task" the level of difficulty.

There's actually this pretty useful diagram that represents the interaction between Skill and Challenge 

      (Arousal being in the sense of "Excited for a/the challenge")

 

As you can see, there's different sorts of emotions and reactions that can come from someone in a game, all of that based on the PERSONAL skill level of the person, the part that comes from the within the "how good can you perform this task", and the NON-PERSONAL part, the challenge that the game being played presents to the person playing it

All those hues can be achieved in a game in differents parts of it, being it new-game, mid-game or end-game, a game with a healty progression should let you achiev flow by the end, in which by playing it you become better at playing it and it can keep on given you more "High skill experiences"

Right now, most of Warframe content sits confortably at the "Low challenge" portion, maybe a little bit of the medium sometimes, but mostly low Challenge, that is quite a bit problematic.

The people that defend the Power Creep aspects of the game in their biggest extreme, mostly reside in that "Relaxation" portion, in which they invested time and resources to become "powerfull", fullfiling their "Power Fantasy" of being this "god-like" being and destroying everthing in their path, they fear that the possibility of higher challenge could kill their Low Challenge gameplay, which in part, it's true, it could, Warframe right now, in the state that we're in  CAN'T CREATE TRULY ENGAGING CONTENT.

Meta will be meta, and Warframe will always have it, but we have a problem when the most optimal strategy trivializes what you're doing, anything in the game can be cancelled and turned into a walking simulator with the right build, that is VERY, VERY PROBLEMATIC, again, I can 100% understand the low challenge gameplay having it's own satisfaction, but we either relax or get bored, and goddamn it is easy to get bored in Warframe, the game's a power fantasy, how can it be soo boring sometimes...?

We'll...that's simple...

There's no point in a "power fantasy" if you have nothing to oppose all that power

METAL GEAR RISING, a game in which you're a badass cyborg with laser katanas, absurd strenght that fights giant robots and cut's them to pieces, could be considered a power fantasy, and while it is NOWHERE close to what Warframe is in gameplay, it represents a "power fantasy" a way better, you're powerfull ? Heck Yeah, no one doubt that, but enemies as powerful as you appear to fight ya'...

DEVIL MAY CRY, GOD I LOVE THIS GAME, stylishs, epic, good music, crazy plot, Swords with engines on em'...it is a power fantasy..., ya' go around doing sick flips in your robot arm while fight a three headed giant dog that controls lightining, fire and ice, the game rewards stylish and skillfull playstyles, and that gives the player a better experience, you may not be the BEST player, but giving your best is what gives you the most satisfaction

Warframe...doesn't have that, gameplay wise ? We can press 2 bottoms and delete rooms, enemies all are folder and don't really are a threat to ya' in a mechanical sense, they kinda of .... just stand there, and do damage, but nothing that really makes you go "OH LAWND, HE'S COMING ! BETTER USE THIS INSTEAD OF THAT", it's more about getting optmal to the point of automatization, and by that point, can ya' even say that you're playing a game anymore ?

LORE WISE, yeah, we SHOULD be badass, but we're fighting the corpus, grinner and infested for some decades now and we're still on a stalemate, corpus made even stronger proxies, researched sentient tech (something quite dangerous to us) and captured some frames, grinners literally start the game by trying to control your mind, they have numbers, weapons, kuva and should already have conquered most of the system, the infested...are ugly, that enought should be able to kill us and our perfect sense of fashion...

Soo, yeah, we...erm... ARE having trouble fighting those faction....we're barelly winning actually, maybe not even close....

 

 

Soo, the point is, we got to a point in which we have just...TOO MUCH power, need to trim it a bit, BUT, still keep the ability for players to have that "relaxation" experience, maybe throught some expecific gamemodes just for that one sort of activity, killing S#&$ relentlessly without giving a damn about nothing, and then working the rest of the game around giving a more challenging experience, progression and STYLE

 

 

Again, I'm working on a post with all my thought and ideas for HOW we could do such a thing, to have all those different hues in the game, but with the recent hellminth..."thingy" coming, I'll need to wait and refine my ideas a tad bit more, discuss with my friends and then work on writing and editing the documment to post, those are just my opinions about the "balance/challenge" situation :T

 

also, pardon me for any grammatical error, english isn't my first language

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

While balance is not a warframe thing. It is important that the system in place is playable, and interesting to the community.

[Tiltskillet]

14 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

im trying to be not rude but i literally gave an example of a guy in this thread that thinks saryn with a kronen prime being an 'imbalance' compared to hyroid with latron prime

I just used those examples because they're tropes:  I figured people would understand what I was getting at without explanation.  I was wrong about that.  And I had the warframes say the lines rather than players in the hope that nobody would take it  personally.  Wrong again.  And because I thought it was funny.  Wro...no, it may not actually be funny, but I still think it's funny.

For what it's worth, the point was that people who proclaim in all seriousness that they don't care about balance at all, tend to be either, 1. fans of things that just so happen to be stronger than average right now (and probably will be very sad when they don't stay that way); or 2. fans of whatever is strong, rather than fans of the things themselves.  I can imagine other types--and maybe you're one--but I bet they're not usually the people making threads about how balance doesn't matter.

The point was not that Saryn is OP compared to Hydroid--I'd guess so, but don't particularly care or know enough about either frame to fight in the alleyways about it.  Or that Kronen Prime is OP compared to Latron Prime--although I most definitely believe this is the case, and actually feel a little ridiculous saying that  like it's something reasonable people could argue about. 

Sorry if that wasn't clear, and I'm really sorry if it still isn't.  

 

 

 

[Kontrollo]

On 2020-08-13 at 10:53 AM, Aldain said:

Yep, much like somebody using a /killall console command and then complaining the game is boring.

Honestly the reason for these problems are the outrageous abuse of multipliers in place of deliberate design. Why make something well when you can slap a 300% multiplier on it and call it "hard mode"?

Agreed.

However, I'm more of a glass is half-full kind of guy when it comes to The Steel Path. At least now there's something that won't keel over instantly just due to someone sneezing in the wrong direction.

[killerJoke66]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I just used those examples because they're tropes:  I figured people would understand what I was getting at without explanation.  I was wrong about that.  And I had the warframes say the lines rather than players in the hope that nobody would take it  personally.  Wrong again.  And because I thought it was funny.  Wro...no, it may not actually be funny, but I still think it's funny.

For what it's worth, the point was that people who proclaim in all seriousness that they don't care about balance at all, tend to be either, 1. fans of things that just so happen to be stronger than average right now (and probably will be very sad when they don't stay that way); or 2. fans of whatever is strong, rather than fans of the things themselves.  I can imagine other types--and maybe you're one--but I bet they're not usually the people making threads about how balance doesn't matter.

The point was not that Saryn is OP compared to Hydroid--I'd guess so, but don't particularly care or know enough about either frame to fight in the alleyways about it.  Or that Kronen Prime is OP compared to Latron Prime--although I most definitely believe this is the case, and actually feel a little ridiculous saying that  like it's something reasonable people could argue about. 

Sorry if that wasn't clear, and I'm really sorry if it still isn't.  

 

I guess i own an apology for taking your post the wrong way , and for the over-reaction . 
This being said , i play both of those frames , yes we need balance but who are we to listen to ? people that scream their top of their lungs that demand nerfs whenever someone does 80% of the damage in a mission or the ones that are never okay with frames getting nerfed for some elements that absolutely trivializes the game ..  
 

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

I guess i own an apology for taking your post the wrong way , and for the over-reaction . 

No problem. 🙂

 

4 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

yes we need balance but who are we to listen to ? people that scream their top of their lungs that demand nerfs whenever someone does 80% of the damage in a mission or the ones that are never okay with frames getting nerfed for some elements that absolutely trivializes the game ..  

We've got some common ground, I think.  I'd say we need some balance too.  Not PvP balance, not perfect balance or anything like it, but rather "squint real hard and it kinda sorta looks like" balance.

And I  agree that people who make shrill demands based on  things like the summary screen should have those  demands made fun of  met with a degree of skepticism.

[Loza03]

13 hours ago, _12K said:

Ok, ok, first, hello everyone, how ya'll going in this pandemic ?

Soo, erm...let's get to the point

I'll try to make it simple because most of what I'll say here it's from another post that I'll made...someday like, I have a full on DOCUMENT for that S#&$, don't think I'll be finishing it any time soon tho'

Soo, what exactly is the impact of "balance" in the game ? Well, quite a lot if you ask me, you see, games, in their nature, always require a level of engagement from the "players", being it a physical game or a video-game doesn't matter, what matters is that some level of "skill" comes into play, that skill being "how good can you perform x task", being "x task" the level of difficulty.

There's actually this pretty useful diagram that represents the interaction between Skill and Challenge (Arousal being in the sense of "Excited for a/the challenge")

As you can see, there's different sorts of emotions and reactions that can come from someone in a game, all of that based on the PERSONAL skill level of the person, the part that comes from the within the "how good can you perform this task", and the NON-PERSONAL part, the challenge that the game being played presents to the person playing it

All those hues can be achieved in a game in differents parts of it, being it new-game, mid-game or end-game, a game with a healty progression should let you achiev flow by the end, in which by playing it you become better at playing it and it can keep on given you more "High skill experiences"

Right now, most of Warframe content sits confortably at the "Low challenge" portion, maybe a little bit of the medium sometimes, but mostly low Challenge, that is quite a bit problematic.

The people that defend the Power Creep aspects of the game in their biggest extreme, mostly reside in that "Relaxation" portion, in which they invested time and resources to become "powerfull", fullfiling their "Power Fantasy" of being this "god-like" being and destroying everthing in their path, they fear that the possibility of higher challenge could kill their Low Challenge gameplay, which in part, it's true, it could, Warframe right now, in the state that we're in  CAN'T CREATE TRULY ENGAGING CONTENT.

Meta will be meta, and Warframe will always have it, but we have a problem when the most optimal strategy trivializes what you're doing, anything in the game can be cancelled and turned into a walking simulator with the right build, that is VERY, VERY PROBLEMATIC, again, I can 100% understand the low challenge gameplay having it's own satisfaction, but we either relax or get bored, and goddamn it is easy to get bored in Warframe, the game's a power fantasy, how can it be soo boring sometimes...?

We'll...that's simple...

There's no point in a "power fantasy" if you have nothing to oppose all that power

METAL GEAR RISING, a game in which you're a badass cyborg with laser katanas, absurd strenght that fights giant robots and cut's them to pieces, could be considered a power fantasy, and while it is NOWHERE close to what Warframe is in gameplay, it represents a "power fantasy" a way better, you're powerfull ? Heck Yeah, no one doubt that, but enemies as powerful as you appear to fight ya'...

DEVIL MAY CRY, GOD I LOVE THIS GAME, stylishs, epic, good music, crazy plot, Swords with engines on em'...it is a power fantasy..., ya' go around doing sick flips in your robot arm while fight a three headed giant dog that controls lightining, fire and ice, the game rewards stylish and skillfull playstyles, and that gives the player a better experience, you may not be the BEST player, but giving your best is what gives you the most satisfaction

Warframe...doesn't have that, gameplay wise ? We can press 2 bottoms and delete rooms, enemies all are folder and don't really are a threat to ya' in a mechanical sense, they kinda of .... just stand there, and do damage, but nothing that really makes you go "OH LAWND, HE'S COMING ! BETTER USE THIS INSTEAD OF THAT", it's more about getting optmal to the point of automatization, and by that point, can ya' even say that you're playing a game anymore ?

LORE WISE, yeah, we SHOULD be badass, but we're fighting the corpus, grinner and infested for some decades now and we're still on a stalemate, corpus made even stronger proxies, researched sentient tech (something quite dangerous to us) and captured some frames, grinners literally start the game by trying to control your mind, they have numbers, weapons, kuva and should already have conquered most of the system, the infested...are ugly, that enought should be able to kill us and our perfect sense of fashion...

Soo, yeah, we...erm... ARE having trouble fighting those faction....we're barelly winning actually, maybe not even close....

 

 

Soo, the point is, we got to a point in which we have just...TOO MUCH power, need to trim it a bit, BUT, still keep the ability for players to have that "relaxation" experience, maybe throught some expecific gamemodes just for that one sort of activity, killing S#&$ relentlessly without giving a damn about nothing, and then working the rest of the game around giving a more challenging experience, progression and STYLE

 

 

Again, I'm working on a post with all my thought and ideas for HOW we could do such a thing, to have all those different hues in the game, but with the recent hellminth..."thingy" coming, I'll need to wait and refine my ideas a tad bit more, discuss with my friends and then work on writing and editing the documment to post, those are just my opinions about the "balance/challenge" situation :T

 

also, pardon me for any grammatical error, english isn't my first language

Agreed on this substantially. There's even a term in psychology to further support this: 'Anchoring Heuristic'.

In layman's terms, when presented with an abstract concept that we can't physically interact with, we make estimates based on context clues. Hence the classic 'that's like 34 football fields across' - most people don't have experience with truly massive sizes like that from the abstracts of numbers.

The same applies to video game levels of strength, because relative strength is such an abstract concept. To call on DMC look at how Vergil is introduced properly in DMC3. Ignoring the intro, we first see Vergil immediately after a boss fight with the Hell Vanguard - a not-so-subtle depiction of death itself. A powerhouse at this point in the game and sporting its very own boss health bar, you need to expend quite a bit of effort to overcome it. Once you beat it, it flees up to Vergil, who achieves the same feat in all of one attack. This establishes a hierarchy - you are stronger than the Lesser Demons, but Vergil is stronger than you. This is reinforced by the fact you don't beat Vergil later on and makes the point when you do beat him at the end of the game vastly more satisfying, because you overcame a great hurdle. But moreover, it's reinforced because the game is hard. Defeating the Hell Vanguard has to be a struggle to establish Vergil - if we can't accept the Vanguard as powerful, than we can't accept Vergil as powerful.

 

The same needs to be true for Warframe. We need the game to push back so we can feel like the Grineer, the Corpus, the Infested and the Sentients are a credible threat, because that's how tensions in Warframe are set.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

The same needs to be true for Warframe. We need the game to push back so we can feel like the Grineer, the Corpus, the Infested and the Sentients are a credible threat, because that's how tensions in Warframe are set.

Agreed, and preferably not in the Kuva Lich "LOL DIE IN A CUTSCENE SCRUB" way.

And also not the Wolf of Saturn Six "I'm immune to everything but getting shot in the torso and have 90% un-removable DR" way either (Yes I know you could strip WoSS' armor, he had DR on top of that is what I'm talking about).

...Sadly our current position of player power those seem to be the only two options and trying to get us down to a reasonable level is like pulling teeth.

[_12K]

Looking at my reply, I probably should extract it and post it as a separate entity to see what others people think about that point of view, I'll only be able to finish the entire post after Deimos anyways :T