Balance is not a warframe concept

[Dumcomester]

I keep seeing people saying balance is dead. with the upcoming update things will not be balanced ect...

WTF does this mean in Warframe? Things have never had to be balanced because the game is about being an overpowered space ninja, wizzard god thing. Survival is still going to take 5mins per reward. Most game modes play out the same regardless of how powerful you are. Yes... replacing (insert trash warframe ability)  with (insert useful ability) will increase your damage speed or convenience. but it's not like if I do 5million damage per hit I am rewarded with platinums.

Game has always been a broken power fantasy. on August 26th it will remain so.

[DrivaMain]

Some people don't like change. 

I gave up on this game's balance a long time ago. Might as well just embrace the power creep.

Sure some balancing is necessary, but let's not turn Warframe into "Just another MMO"

[ShogunGunshow]

Balance might not be a warframe concept, but DE has been pretty consistent with implementing changes when it's obvious that something is so strong that it effectively limits build diversity and real choices.

Some of those abilities selected for the Helminth are poster children for that and will get nerfed in the future because of it.

[Tyreaus]

There are a few points where the topic of balance becomes necessary.

One is when the Skinner Box-esque mechanisms start to become the forefront. I.e., the game turning into a "press one button and win the level" sort of deal.

Another is when one option makes most, if not all, other options obsolete. In big part because, with future releases that then have to match up to that meta option, it can turn into point 1 quite easily.

That doesn't mean fine-tuned balance is especially necessary, or that the upcoming Helminth system is going to ruin everything. A small difference in TTK isn't going to break a power fantasy system and DE seems to be playing quite cautious with abilities granted by the Helminth system. But macroscopic balancing - ensuring things don't go absolutely insane, which can happen at quite a slow pace too - tends to be required. And, unchecked, smaller points of balance can turn into big problems.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

17 minutes ago, Dumcomester said:

I keep seeing people saying balance is dead. with the upcoming update things will not be balanced ect...

WTF does this mean in Warframe? Things have never had to be balanced because the game is about being an overpowered space ninja, wizzard god thing. Survival is still going to take 5mins per reward. Most game modes play out the same regardless of how powerful you are. Yes... replacing (insert trash warframe ability)  with (insert useful ability) will increase your damage speed or convenience. but it's not like if I do 5million damage per hit I am rewarded with platinums.

Game has always been a broken power fantasy. on August 26th it will remain so.

In warframe, balance means less “everything is fair vs each other” and more so “as long as its not the only option because it outpaces literally everything else.” Examples of unbalanced things were like pre-nerf bramma, mirage+simulor, and some would argue old link/talons trinity. 

[Corvid]

19 minutes ago, Dumcomester said:

the game is about being an overpowered space ninja, wizzard god thing

It wasn't always. The Tenno used to be the underdogs of the system, whose only edges were mobility, skill, and a handful of esoteric powers, and were tasked with fighting enemies that vastly outnumbered us and often outscaled us.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

In warframe, balance means less “everything is fair vs each other” and more so “as long as its not the only option because it outpaces literally everything else.” Examples of unbalanced things were like pre-nerf bramma, mirage+simulor, and some would argue old link/talons trinity. 

Yea and that's good enough. Just tailor the extreme outliers. The stuff on the very outer edges. 

This game is just clearly not a traditional MMORPG. I know because that's all I played. 

This is an entirely different beast.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, Corvid said:

It wasn't always. The Tenno used to be the underdogs of the system, whose only edges were mobility, skill, and a handful of esoteric powers, and were tasked with fighting enemies that vastly outnumbered us and often outscaled us.

And that's awesome, but after 7 years they had no choice but to adapt or die. Life is progress in every capacity. That's why we left the Bronze Age.

[Serafim_94]

Let's put it this way - people don't get to both be hyped about modular skills AND complain how there's no challenge in frame. Because if there's no balance, there's no challenge. And we're about to get our next level of power creep.

[YUNoJump]

29 minutes ago, Dumcomester said:

Things have never had to be balanced because the game is about being an overpowered space ninja, wizzard god thing.

There still has to be SOME balance because if we're too powerful then the game isn't fun anymore. Imagine playing a sport like golf, but you have a club that automatically aims the ball directly into the hole no matter how well you swing. After a while it's gonna get boring just constantly winning with no challenge.

That's why Steel Path was created; endgame players were annoyed that they couldn't really get a good challenge out of the game without spending hours in endless missions. The game doesn't need to be perfectly fine-tuned so that every build is exactly as powerful as everything else, but its good to have challenge, and its good to have different options available, which is why we shouldn't let super-powerful builds reign over everything else.

[lukinu_u]

Well, the reason there are complains about balance are simple :

• The game lack of challenge and people ask for it.
• Any challenge the game provide is made trivial with "meta stuff", or designed specifically for it, which make unintendedly hard with other stuff.

If the game get a balance pass that reduce the gap between all gears, it would make difficulty much easier the manage, which make challange more adapated regardless of the game and provide more diversity.
Overall, you get more diversity AND challenge, which make the game more fun to play.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

And that's awesome, but after 7 years they had no choice but to adapt or die.

Based on... what, exactly? What did DE have to adapt to, because anyone paying attention can see that we're in this situation because of apathy, not conscious adaptation. What would have killed Warframe had they not supposedly adapted?

Please regale us with your omniscient wisdom.

[Loza03]

Balance is the means by which a game delivers its intended gameplay. There's a reason why Halo stumbles with enhanced mobility whilst Titanfall flourishes with it - one is properly balanced around enhanced mobility, the other wasn't traditionally. Balance means all parts of the game - the environment, the enemies, and yes, the players.

 

Warframe, for my money, will be balanced when it starts actually providing more than lip service towards variety and high-speed gameplay whilst in reality giving the most rewards to extremely stationary, repetitive, one-size-fits-all strategies. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Based on... what, exactly? What did DE have to adapt to, because anyone paying attention can see that we're in this situation because of apathy, not conscious adaptation. What would have killed Warframe had they not supposedly adapted?

Please regale us with your omniscient wisdom.

It's just simple stagnation. It wouldn't have killed the game, but whether it was the players, investors, or the people that owned the game....someone was gonna ask for something bigger and better. 

That's just how things are sometimes. How many people already came here comparing WF to Destiny 2 (I despise that game and hated those posts)? All people do is compare and try to match each other. 

Then the Steve guy that created the game said Railjack was a part of his dream, right? What if he already had plans to grow warframe? 

I dont think what I'm saying is so far out there it's hard to understand....Look at all these people constantly buying bigger and better products like phones or computers.

I hate this part of humanity, but it's just a thing that happens.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Based on... what, exactly? What did DE have to adapt to, because anyone paying attention can see that we're in this situation because of apathy, not conscious adaptation. What would have killed Warframe had they not supposedly adapted?

Please regale us with your omniscient wisdom.

We could even go further and discuss stuff the like Industrial Revolution creating the notion of constantly growing. 

Companies making profit, to then put that back into the company to create more growth and profits etc. 

It has its pros and cons. Like we all came together and gave DE money and they ended up giving it to charity which is pretty awesome.

[DeMonkey]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's just simple stagnation. It wouldn't have killed the game, but whether it was the players, investors, or the people that owned the game....someone was gonna ask for something bigger and better. 

That's just how things are sometimes. How many people already came here comparing WF to Destiny 2 (I despise that game and hated those posts)? All people do is compare and try to match each other. 

Then the Steve guy that created the game said Railjack was a part of his dream, right? What if he already had plans to grow warframe? 

I dont think what I'm saying is so far out there it's hard to understand....Look at all these people constantly buying bigger and better products like phones or computers.

I hate this part of humanity, but it's just a thing that happens.

I feel like you're misunderstanding the posts. Based on the second response, very much so.

OP says the game is about being overpowered, and this is good.

Corvid responds saying we weren't always overpowered, and it was also good (if not better imo).

You respond to Corvid that DE had to adapt or die.

So no, this isn't a case of bigger and better products, additions like Railjack and so on.

How was the game's journey from underdog to destroyer of worlds a case of willful adaptation? What would have killed the game had DE not adopted the philosophy of turning us into nukes? 

[Tyreaus]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's just simple stagnation.

The thing is, and kind of looping back to the initial point, avoiding stagnation doesn't mean going the route of the power fantasy. If Warframe had to advance in some direction, then ditching the traditional MMO architecture from where it (presumably) started makes sense. But that doesn't entail necessarily going the route that it has. See, for example, the entire Soulsborne concept as one potential alternative.

Plus, perhaps some people are worried about stagnation creeping up again, because the game is brushing into the ceiling. After all, once you're able to clear rooms with a few button presses, how do you get "bigger and better" along the player power route? It might not be possible.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I feel like you're misunderstanding the posts. Based on the second response, very much so.

OP says the game is about being overpowered, and this is good.

Corvid responds saying we weren't always overpowered, and it was also good (if not better imo).

You respond to Corvid that DE had to adapt or die.

So no, this isn't a case of bigger and better products, additions like Railjack and so on.

How was the game's journey from underdog to destroyer of worlds a case of willful adaptation? What would have killed the game had DE not adopted the philosophy of turning us into nukes? 

Yea I understand, it was probably the addition of the extra mods.

So I come to warframe a little over a year ago and it's like "Huh....I can increase my range to 280%? That seems a bit much but I guess this is just how the game is, man they sure do give people a lot of freedom." 

And then I got on the forums and everyones like "This isn't the game I played this is getting out of hand."

But since I'm newer I had no idea. 

I wouldn't be devastated if our range and Primed mods were brought in line. I'd be a little upset but I'd get over it. 

They already fixed BloodRush and CO. Who knows maybe theres plans to bring more stuff in line? I can't be the only one that found it odd that you could use rivens for stat sticks.....I used a Tekko riven with 300 damage and crit chance forever....so I'm guilty too.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

14 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

The thing is, and kind of looping back to the initial point, avoiding stagnation doesn't mean going the route of the power fantasy. If Warframe had to advance in some direction, then ditching the traditional MMO architecture from where it (presumably) started makes sense. But that doesn't entail necessarily going the route that it has. See, for example, the entire Soulsborne concept as one potential alternative.

Plus, perhaps some people are worried about stagnation creeping up again, because the game is brushing into the ceiling. After all, once you're able to clear rooms with a few button presses, how do you get "bigger and better" along the player power route? It might not be possible.

I totally get your point sorry about that. Basically where are they gonna go in 3 more years if the game is already this wild.

Yea so I just typed a long response to the Wukong Master guy lol. But I get it. 

I actually came here from a game I'd been playing for 7 years already. 

They managed their powercreep, but instead started adding incredible microtransactions and loot boxes, like every update there was a new loot box. 

I think DE kind of managed their loot box stuff better since they are Free to play. Kinda why I like them better 

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

Some people don't like change. 

I gave up on this game's balance a long time ago. Might as well just embrace the power creep.

Sure some balancing is necessary, but let's not turn Warframe into "Just another MMO"

Hate to break it to you man, but this game wasn’t at all relying on you for balance.

[Tiltskillet]

Saryn wielding Kronen Prime says, "Balance is an obsolete concept and can be safely ignored.  Next question!"

Hydroid wielding Latron Prime whispers, "I don't know, a little might be nice."

[Lost_Cartographer]

The only balancing this game really can and should afford is making sure no frame is obsolete, and no one build/item is the be all, end all.

People have been crying about balance, but whenever DE even humors the idea everyone starts clutching their pearls because they don't want their ability spam taken away, the need for LoS to CC enemies, etc.  We can't ask for balance and challenge but scream bloody murder when the very tools to mitigate either are addressed.  You can't just increase enemy HP and damage and make them slightly smarter and expect anything to change, but people want to believe that's all it would take.  It's not.  It's so very not.

But then, I bring up the pointlessness of lock downs and people are quick to jump on me about how "easy it is" and telling me to equip intruder if it's so hard.  Turns out people don't really want challenge and balance (or to even understand what's being said or what they're even doing,) they just want a chance to brag about how much better they are than someone else.

[trst]

It was not always a broken mess, years of unchecked powercreep with a complete lack of content to even attempt justifying it lead the game to the rut it's been stuck in now.

Yet besides that balancing, while not much, does still in fact exist. Specifically anything that completely removes interaction from the game or that completely removes it from others all with zero effort get changed. It's entirely why Ember got reworked and weapons like the Brama/Xoris got nerfed. As well balancing goes in both directions as in buffing under performing gear/frames which is also something that happens semi regularly.

And while concerns over the Helminth system being more powercreep really don't matter as we can only get so much more efficient it's adding onto the issue of "hard/challenging" content is becoming more of an impossibility thanks to it.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

The only balancing this game really can and should afford is making sure no frame is obsolete, and no one build/item is the be all, end all.

People have been crying about balance, but whenever DE even humors the idea everyone starts clutching their pearls because they don't want their ability spam taken away, the need for LoS to CC enemies, etc.  We can't ask for balance and challenge but scream bloody murder when the very tools to mitigate either are addressed.  You can't just increase enemy HP and damage and make them slightly smarter and expect anything to change, but people want to believe that's all it would take.  It's not.  It's so very not.

But then, I bring up the pointlessness of lock downs and people are quick to jump on me about how "easy it is" and telling me to equip intruder if it's so hard.  Turns out people don't really want challenge and balance (or to even understand what's being said or what they're even doing,) they just want a chance to brag about how much better they are than someone else.

The enemy design isn't exactly helping. A lot of them were designed back when stealth was supposed to be a major part of gameplay, and thus getting into big fights was supposed to be a bad idea. And many of the current enemies inexplicably follow this same philosophy.

In a game, you want the enemies to be good at stopping 'bad' gameplay (i.e. gameplay that goes against what's most fun for that game) and bad at stopping good gameplay. That way the player is rewarded for playing well by success, and punished for playing badly by failure. In a game like Warframe which is supposedly putting a lot of emphasis on its movement mechanics, and variety of playstyles, that means enemies which reward effective counterplay, likely with a somewhat broad spread of enemy types that can be chopped and changed between to emphasise or demphasise specific styles of play from moment to moment. For example, clearly defined snipers which actively take up sniper spots (rather than blending with the crowd) and which are made vulnerable when you close the gap or sneak up on them, or stationary targets that guard areas with cover fire but which can be outmaneuvered. Plains of Eidolon's use of Mortar Bombards and slow-turning machine gun turrets are good examples, at least on that broad-strokes design level.

Instead, with our most recent example of new enemies, we got high damage full auto. Lanes and lanes of full auto fire filling the corridors of the new ship. Projectiles, yes, which is better than hitscan (easier to intuit where it's coming from, important in a horde game where your attention is spread thin), but still lanes of firepower. As history attests, the best way to counter sustained covering fire is to either be immune to bullets or to hide. Not dodging it or outspeeding it, because you can't do that if literally hundreds of projectiles are flying at you from three different angles. Not with any consistency. So the game is pretty much encouraging you to spend as little time as possible actively engaging in combat (just long enough to drop your win button). Which ain't great if 90% of the gameplay is, in fact, combat.

 

I'm not saying that player stubbornness isn't also a major factor, but it'd be a lot easier to overcome if everything would slot into place if our abilities were to be brought in line. 

[Nailclipper]

OP things are fun but they make the game boring real quick.

Bored players equals to the game getting dead fast.