Balance is not a warframe concept

[Corvid]

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Corvid responds saying we weren't always overpowered, and it was also good (if not better imo).

For clarity, I think the game would be best if it were somewhere between what we had then and now. A combat system that gives you enough tools to be a badass and pull off all these stylish moves, while still having consequences if you go into the fray without a plan.

Vanquish is probably the best model I've seen for how a stylish, fast paced third-person-shooter should handle. Obviously I'm not asking for Warframe to literally become a 1:1 recreation of Vanquish (AR Mode in multiplayer would be impossible to implement, for instance), but I don't think DE would go too wrong if they decided to take a few cues from it.

5 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

Awe the lil forum warriors crying over balance when you had rivens and other cheesy nonsense to begin with.

Er, they weren't always in the game either. I specifically remember thinking Rivens were a bad idea when they were added (which was about 2 years after I started playing, mind), and I still hold that position now.

[ebrl]

This incredibly stupid and unfortunately widespread "PvE doesn't need balance" mentality is how we got to that point.

[DatDarkOne]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Balance is the means by which a game delivers its intended gameplay. There's a reason why Halo stumbles with enhanced mobility whilst Titanfall flourishes with it - one is properly balanced around enhanced mobility, the other wasn't traditionally. Balance means all parts of the game - the environment, the enemies, and yes, the players.

 

Warframe, for my money, will be balanced when it starts actually providing more than lip service towards variety and high-speed gameplay whilst in reality giving the most rewards to extremely stationary, repetitive, one-size-fits-all strategies. 

I completely agree with this^^^^

6 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

People have been crying about balance, but whenever DE even humors the idea everyone starts clutching their pearls because they don't want their ability spam taken away, the need for LoS to CC enemies, etc.  We can't ask for balance and challenge but scream bloody murder when the very tools to mitigate either are addressed.  You can't just increase enemy HP and damage and make them slightly smarter and expect anything to change, but people want to believe that's all it would take.  It's not.  It's so very not.

But then, I bring up the pointlessness of lock downs and people are quick to jump on me about how "easy it is" and telling me to equip intruder if it's so hard.  Turns out people don't really want challenge and balance (or to even understand what's being said or what they're even doing,) they just want a chance to brag about how much better they are than someone else.

[DeMonkey]

26 minutes ago, Corvid said:

For clarity, I think the game would be best if it were somewhere between what we had then and now.

Ofc, all live service games need to evolve. I just needed to explain the stark difference between Warframe then (which was good to some) and Warframe now (which is also good to some), and question certain aspects of the post.

26 minutes ago, Corvid said:

but I don't think DE would go too wrong if they decided to take a few cues from it.

Pretty sure it's illegal nowadays to compare Warframe to other games and suggest taking a leaf out of their book.

Don't worry, I'll just say you were at my place all night, the fuzz will never know it was you that said it.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 hours ago, Dumcomester said:

I keep seeing people saying balance is dead. with the upcoming update things will not be balanced ect...

WTF does this mean in Warframe? Things have never had to be balanced because the game is about being an overpowered space ninja, wizzard god thing. Survival is still going to take 5mins per reward. Most game modes play out the same regardless of how powerful you are. Yes... replacing (insert trash warframe ability)  with (insert useful ability) will increase your damage speed or convenience. but it's not like if I do 5million damage per hit I am rewarded with platinums.

Game has always been a broken power fantasy. on August 26th it will remain so.

Balance In Warframe is a myth. As long as DE controls the interactions with enemies and the way we play, doesn’t matter how strong a warframe is. 

[Kontrollo]

Personal opinion: Warframe these days is like fast food.

Your body is telling you you want this like it is, and you're enjoying it for a bit no questions. But it just doesn't quite sate you for the day.

[Aldain]

8 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

There still has to be SOME balance because if we're too powerful then the game isn't fun anymore.

Yep, much like somebody using a /killall console command and then complaining the game is boring.

Honestly the reason for these problems are the outrageous abuse of multipliers in place of deliberate design. Why make something well when you can slap a 300% multiplier on it and call it "hard mode"?

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

9 hours ago, Dumcomester said:

I keep seeing people saying balance is dead. with the upcoming update things will not be balanced ect...

WTF does this mean in Warframe? Things have never had to be balanced because the game is about being an overpowered space ninja, wizzard god thing. Survival is still going to take 5mins per reward. Most game modes play out the same regardless of how powerful you are. Yes... replacing (insert trash warframe ability)  with (insert useful ability) will increase your damage speed or convenience. but it's not like if I do 5million damage per hit I am rewarded with platinums.

Game has always been a broken power fantasy. on August 26th it will remain so.

The past however many hours since Rebecca posted the dev workshop for Helminth system has been amusing. 

There are 3 groups of players that I can think of: 

Group A: Sees stuff that is overpowered (be it frames, weapons etc.) and request/demand for nerfs. 
Group B: Sees stuff that is overpowered (be it frames, weapons etc.) and request/demand for nerfs...so long as it is something they don't like. 
Group C : Sees stuff that is overpowered (be it frames, weapons etc.) and don't request for nerfs, regardless if it is something they like or dislike. 

I'm in group C. 
It has been funny reading posts from people embracing the power fantasy that will come with the Helminth System and stray into group C. Although, have to wonder, where was all this steadfast defense of something DE made, regardless if it is overpowered, when players were demanding the Bramma and Catchmoon get nerfed? 

People like Helminth system, so they defend it....because it is something they like. 
When it comes to something they don't like, or find too powerful, they will call for nerfs. Just how some players are. 

[VentiGlondi]

Balance isn't just players vs AI enemies.

It's gear vs other gear.

It's gear vs how much effort you need to put into acquiring said gear.

It's new player vs veteran player.

It really isn't all about "enemies die too fast".

[JmDaFuz]

I suppose my personal way of looking at the term "balance and warframe" is that balance means something different from game to game but it all boils down to the concept of a puplic playground. Everybody has to be able to coexist and have fun. If one person in warframe is hugging all the fun and kills for him or her self then theres nothing left for anyone else and thus the game dies for those people. When somethings too strong or a frame does too much it limits rather than expands the game for the player and the players around them.

[killerJoke66]

i have a serious question to some players ; 
you remember that you need to be at the end of proggression on the star chart to get saryn and almost likely same for mesa on eris , (not defending those frames particularly but here me out) .(and also i know that star chart isnt hard to begin with the base it as a proggresion status but it is regardless of what we think ) 

So Why should a beginner level player or middle level player can demand nerfs for upper proggression in the game ?

Maybe proggression even in a game like warfrmae should mean something dont you think ? or else whats the differentiation on someone thats proggressed in the game and with the one that didn't , in my opinion they shouldn't have the same power level , not just becasue of the time sink but also (gasp) its logical to say so .

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

So Why should a beginner level player or middle level player can demand nerfs for upper proggression in the game ?

Could you list some of the new/middle level players in this thread who have posted complaints about Saryn and OP playstyles in general?

6 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

Maybe proggression even in a game like warfrmae should mean something dont you think ?

Why is it okay to have the reward for progressing through the "not hard" star chat an 'I win' button?

Like you said, it's not even hard. What sort of dolally progression is that?

[killerJoke66]

'saryn with a kronen prime' or doesnt have to be in this specific thread either you know they exist , whatever the example might be , i vote for proggression meaning something .
and not nerfing a 300 days' reward just because it brings 'stationary' gameplay for some although spamming e button isnt being quite the engaging gameplay either .

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Like you said, it's not even hard. What sort of dolally progression is that?

 Its a proggression regadless , you opened up a lot of wiki pages on how to get this done or where to get that bla bla , you gave some effort into it , including the time sink .

[TheLexiConArtist]

19 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

i have a serious question to some players ; 
you remember that you need to be at the end of proggression on the star chart to get saryn and almost likely same for mesa on eris , (not defending those frames particularly but here me out) .(and also i know that star chart isnt hard to begin with the base it as a proggresion status but it is regardless of what we think ) 

So Why should a beginner level player or middle level player can demand nerfs for upper proggression in the game ?

Maybe proggression even in a game like warfrmae should mean something dont you think ? or else whats the differentiation on someone thats proggressed in the game and with the one that didn't , in my opinion they shouldn't have the same power level , not just becasue of the time sink but also (gasp) its logical to say so .

A new player can still just buy Saryn and Mesa. A player who cannot compete with Saryn and Mesa with what they want to use, or even whatever they have at their current level of what you call 'progression', are not prevented from being matched with other players who use those frames.

Progression isn't "Item A -> Item B" in this game, it's "how many options do I have to choose between, and how much versatility do I have in modding them". For example, Condition Overload still has its limitations with status immune enemies, terrible-status weapons, and enemies which would die before reaching the break-even status quantity to make CO better than Primed Pressure Point. It's not just better.

 

The problem with those two frames especially is that they scale absurdly effectively.
Remember that Ember's World On Fire was called 'problematic' for too easily killing low-level enemies, but it scaled awfully by itself (not counting Accelerant buffing). Its damage was relatively mediocre. Its type was poor. It had a limited number of targets it could be hitting at any given time, so as soon as they start not dying in one tick, the ability fell off more dramatically than abilities which just hit 'everything' in their effect area at once.

Meanwhile, Saryn and especially Mesa take all the 'barely even playing' factor of old Ember WoF and scale it up to the point it's still intrusive past Sortie/Arbitration levels. So when someone wants to explore the entire rest of the roster or use weapons which actually need the player to find and aim at enemies... they don't get the chance.

 

Balance is the area between "mission still possible even if some people aren't as good as the others (or AFK, or just an undersized squad)" and "one person can almost entirely prevent others from playing".

[DeMonkey]

16 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

doesnt have to be in this specific thread either you know they exist

So that's a no on an example then.

Hot air man, it's just hot air. You can't gripe about newbs trying to get a frame nerfed in a thread full of long time players. Looks ridiculous.

17 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

Its a proggression regadless , you opened up a lot of wiki pages on how to get this done

You're joking right?

I refuse to believe anyone would actually argue that point, and so I can only conclude that you're trolling.

Please, please be trolling.

[Corvid]

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Don't worry, I'll just say you were at my place all night, the fuzz will never know it was you that said it.

I'm pretty sure it's a matter of public record now, but I appreciate the sentiment.

[killerJoke66]

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

 

You're joking right?

I refuse to believe anyone would actually argue that point, and so I can only conclude that you're trolling.

 

yes , opening up multiple wiki pages and youtube videos just to learn the nitty gritty stuff that game doesnt tell you , is factual  , whether you like it or not , it is something other than simply buying a frame with plat , you can also do that yes , as is pay for proggress model of the game which is fine , yet to say it nullifies the concept of 'earned' grind is unlikely and a false statement. So farming for a frame is still a legitimate proggress , again whether you like it or not.
 

 

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

So that's a no on an example then.

Hot air man, it's just hot air. You can't gripe about newbs trying to get a frame nerfed in a thread full of long time players. Looks ridiculous.

 

im trying to be not rude but i literally gave an example of a guy in this thread that thinks saryn with a kronen prime being an 'imbalance' compared to hyroid with latron prime , that was case in case example that i just gave and you can look at previous comments for it . it is indeed in this very specific thread and i find it hilarous 

[killerJoke66]

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

A new player can still just buy Saryn and Mesa. A player who cannot compete with Saryn and Mesa with what they want to use, or even whatever they have at their current level of what you call 'progression', are not prevented from being matched with other players who use those frames.

Progression isn't "Item A -> Item B" in this game, it's "how many options do I have to choose between, and how much versatility do I have in modding them". For example, Condition Overload still has its limitations with status immune enemies, terrible-status weapons, and enemies which would die before reaching the break-even status quantity to make CO better than Primed Pressure Point. It's not just better.

 

The problem with those two frames especially is that they scale absurdly effectively.
Remember that Ember's World On Fire was called 'problematic' for too easily killing low-level enemies, but it scaled awfully by itself (not counting Accelerant buffing). Its damage was relatively mediocre. Its type was poor. It had a limited number of targets it could be hitting at any given time, so as soon as they start not dying in one tick, the ability fell off more dramatically than abilities which just hit 'everything' in their effect area at once.

Meanwhile, Saryn and especially Mesa take all the 'barely even playing' factor of old Ember WoF and scale it up to the point it's still intrusive past Sortie/Arbitration levels. So when someone wants to explore the entire rest of the roster or use weapons which actually need the player to find and aim at enemies... they don't get the chance.

 

Balance is the area between "mission still possible even if some people aren't as good as the others (or AFK, or just an undersized squad)" and "one person can almost entirely prevent others from playing".

i get the points of  - something overshining in a specific area too effectively thus narrowing down the options for efficency 
                             - the game not having a linear proggression but horizontally so that players arent forced to proggress in the area they want to play 

Though , there are still linear proggression elements in the game as MR required for prime frames , weapons , rivens , daily syndicate capacities , extra mod slots for gear(thats mehh dont mention) , im trying to say we still are rewarded for expanding our arsenal and essentially exploring the game.(that being said im not trying to pose an mr argument as it doesnt show actual skill or whatever ) 

So in my opinion the individual  player should feel rewarded for doing whatever content island(whoops buzz word) they are into , it would be not so incentivizing if they were to heavily nerf frames like nidus , saryn or mesa when in reality for a completely fresh  player (especially solo)  they gone through proggression walls to reach that point , which we all forgot after mr9 test or so .

[DeMonkey]

16 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

~snip~

Okay, so confirmed a troll then. 

Could have just said, would have saved you an awful lot of typing.

[killerJoke66]

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

and "one person can almost entirely prevent others from playing".

on  a not so proffessional note , im kind of tired to see that statement when it only occurs in public missions , where people race for efficency to complete a mission , its on their side if they get offended or for not even touching an enemy just because someone has more aoe , by that logic remove aoe from the game because it will never end until the end of times . 

[killerJoke66]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Okay, so confirmed a troll then. 

Could have just said, would have saved you an awful lot of typing.

you do you my dude , moving on *rolls eyes*

[akrid45]

lol and people think DE will be able to add any challenging content with this S#&$storm they are adding. Might aswell add a "press 1 to instantly delete all enemies on screen power"

RIP raids 

[TheLexiConArtist]

30 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

i get the points of  - something overshining in a specific area too effectively thus narrowing down the options for efficency 
                             - the game not having a linear proggression but horizontally so that players arent forced to proggress in the area they want to play 

Though , there are still linear proggression elements in the game as MR required for prime frames , weapons , rivens , daily syndicate capacities , extra mod slots for gear(thats mehh dont mention) , im trying to say we still are rewarded for expanding our arsenal and essentially exploring the game.(that being said im not trying to pose an mr argument as it doesnt show actual skill or whatever ) 

So in my opinion the individual  player should feel rewarded for doing whatever content island(whoops buzz word) they are into , it would be not so incentivizing if they were to heavily nerf frames like nidus , saryn or mesa when in reality for a completely fresh  player (especially solo)  they gone through proggression walls to reach that point , which we all forgot after mr9 test or so .

As far as Warframes are concerned, they should be on reasonably comparable footing right from the starters to the endgame-locked - the progression system for Warframe power is all in the mod variety and strength, and mods are transferable.

Prime Frames have fairly low or even zero MR lock. Even then, Saryn is 0 and Mesa is only 2. Frames are therefore off the table for judging 'progression' by MR lock.

Grendel is way beyond any of those content locks (starchart full-clear PLUS arbitration grind PLUS completing a set of no-mod challenge missions) and yet, that big chonker isn't as overpowered as you seem to think is justified.

 

Weapons do have some progressive power to them, but for the most part a weapon's unique features shouldn't be able to completely remove another player's agency - it must be an AOE, and both potent and reliable to approach this. Case studies: Original Tonkor without self-damage, Mirage-Simulor, Kuva Bramma. Meme Strike with whips and other very wide-reaching spin-to-win melees.

Otherwise, it doesn't really matter how hard your Rubico Prime shoots when it's only overkilling a handful of targets at best, at any given time, does it?

26 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

on not a so proffessional note , im kind of tired to see that statement when it only occurs in public missions , where people race for efficency to complete a mission , its on their side if they get offended or not for even touching an enemy just because someone has more aoe , by that logic remove aoe from the game because it will never end until the end of times . 

It's a valid statement. What agency did a player have when Limbo CataStasis froze allied gunfire? They had to play completely subservient to the Limbo's influence. Melee only in HIS area, or you're just not allowed to play in HIS area. It's a mismatch of the influence and agency between theoretically-equal players. Thus, Stasis was changed.

Not everyone is 'end of mission' oriented in their playstyle. One player does not have the right to tell other people how they can play because public matchmaking is available. You can be going steadily in a mission and suddenly, in pops a Saryn and you no longer have the ability to find a satisfying number of enemies to fight. You can play solo, but that's not something you should be forced into.

Things like the Extraction timer stop exploring players being too slow (or griefers refusing to exit), but it's not "two people hit extraction, everybody immediately out" which would give that player no chance to at least try to finish whatever little detail that was delaying them. So both "I want out" and "I want a minute to look around" get to have some sort of compromise.
The same sort of result should come from the state of Warframe/weapon balance. Frames still differ, nukers gonna nuke, but not so much that there's not a reasonable amount of combat opportunity to go around if others actually want it without having to brute-force contest the other player's nuke with their own. Sometimes you might just want to shoot a guy with a gun, but you can't if Saryn's wiping three tiles' radius or Mesa is aimbotting them down before you can even humanly react.

 

Also, never forget that toxicity goes both ways. I was once trying out an alt account during the Mirage/Simulor epidemic, and during a defense politely mentioned that it'd be nice if I got to shoot some things too (seemingly an MR2 newbie). The intrusive Mirage player in question promptly told me to kill myself. All for wanting to maybe play the game as well as finish the mission.

[killerJoke66]

On 2020-08-13 at 7:40 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Things like the Extraction timer stop exploring players being too slow (or griefers refusing to exit), but it's not "two people hit extraction, everybody immediately out" which would give that player no chance to at least try to finish whatever little detail that was delaying them. So both "I want out" and "I want a minute to look around" get to have some sort of compromise.

I completely and wholeheartedly agree on this one .

[(PSN)TheWanderer17]

17 hours ago, Dumcomester said:

I keep seeing people saying balance is dead. with the upcoming update things will not be balanced ect...

WTF does this mean in Warframe? Things have never had to be balanced because the game is about being an overpowered space ninja, wizzard god thing. Survival is still going to take 5mins per reward. Most game modes play out the same regardless of how powerful you are. Yes... replacing (insert trash warframe ability)  with (insert useful ability) will increase your damage speed or convenience. but it's not like if I do 5million damage per hit I am rewarded with platinums.

Game has always been a broken power fantasy. on August 26th it will remain so.

Agree with you warframe has always been like this.

Once upon a time, 2 hr survival was an achievement.  Game continued and the 2 hr turned to 4 hr to endless. 

balance... Game has never had 'balance' just a point were enemies scaled to a point where it became difficult to continue.

I think the underlying issue is not balance, just that there isnt that point within reasonable time where you feel overwhelmed, so there is no risk decision to make in whether one continues to push for the next 20 waves milestone or not.

 

Just my sense of it.