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"Choose your ability" yeah right !


Psycr0vv

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Im sort of disapointed here..why ?

 

I heard we could now swap warframe ability somehow.

And somewhere there was a video about it like "what will ur build be" Hype !

But then i see we can only choose 52 ability/skills and half of these dont stack with all the warframes skills anyway. ( good job devs ) b O d

Allready here we have limits within limits..so what is the point of having this useless system ? 

Is it that hard to swap warframe to use the skills/ability you like ?

Let me remind you its harder to get the warframe parts and create a new again after you sacrefise it.

 

ect i was fishing after getting vex armour from chroma or roar from rhino but "NO you cant have these cuz they are not available or stackable"  :-(

 

Pfft ! What a load of bologna sausage this update was...

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28 minutes ago, Psycr0vv said:

But then i see we can only choose 52 ability/skills and half of these dont stack with all the warframes skills anyway. ( good job devs ) b O d

'Half of'?

You are aware the only restriction on what abilities you can put on who is that you can only put one damage-boosting ability on a single frame. Every other ability is freely available to mix and match.

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there's certainly more limitations to Helminth than one would have expected based on their Marketing of it all the way up to shortly before releasing it.

Quote

Let me remind you its harder to get the warframe parts and create a new again after you sacrefise it.

no it isn't.

 

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You are aware the only restriction on what abilities you can put on who is that you can only put one damage-boosting ability on a single frame. Every other ability is freely available to mix and match.

i assume he's referring to that some Abilities you transfer over don't take into account as many facets of other Warframes as one would have imagined in their mind that they would.

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This megathread was made about 2-3 weeks before the HoD update launched.

The devs made everyone clear on how the system would function, including which of the selected abilities would be chosen, and altered for diminishing returns.

Plenty of youtubers were reporting on all the updates made to the Helminth system.

You can only blame yourself for being uniformed 

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In their defense, from the very beginning they said it would be one ability per frame and no ultimates or signature abilities, so most of us didn't even expect powers like Roar...

And as soon as they announced powers like roar, even before the "pre-nerfs" it was already a limitation that you could only have one damage buff per frame. 

That said, the system definitely feels pretty limited and barebones like a lot of stuff they release. I don't expect it to be finished for a while. The leveling feels like much ado about nothing and most are going to quickly reach level 10 and feel their xp is now wasted. There are almost no unique helminth abilities and little reason to level up beyond it giving you unlimited subsume. Expedite Suffering is locked at Rank 9, but it feels underwhelming even with the right builds. 

Most augments just... don't work when it's the subsumed version. A lot of synergies are just not available. For example, if you are using Firewalker, teleporting with Ash or Switch Teleporting with Loki will not set off the fire blast feature, because DE didn't code that kind of synergy into the game. The abilities just sort of work, mostly, and that's it for now. 

 

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Personally it works pretty much exactly how I expected except they actually gave more powerful abilities than I thought.  I thought they would have prioritised odd quirky abilities over things like roar, pillage and dispenser. 

Personally I think they would have been better of not giving these abilities and instead given a helminth version. Which would have avoided people complaining about nerfs and balance issues.  They shouldn't have gone 1 ability per frame and instead just put abilities that make sense and any which were hard just make up a helminth alternative. 

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23 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

In their defense, from the very beginning they said it would be one ability per frame and no ultimates or signature abilities, so most of us didn't even expect powers like Roar...

And as soon as they announced powers like roar, even before the "pre-nerfs" it was already a limitation that you could only have one damage buff per frame. 

That said, the system definitely feels pretty limited and barebones like a lot of stuff they release. I don't expect it to be finished for a while. The leveling feels like much ado about nothing and most are going to quickly reach level 10 and feel their xp is now wasted. There are almost no unique helminth abilities and little reason to level up beyond it giving you unlimited subsume. Expedite Suffering is locked at Rank 9, but it feels underwhelming even with the right builds. 

Most augments just... don't work when it's the subsumed version. A lot of synergies are just not available. For example, if you are using Firewalker, teleporting with Ash or Switch Teleporting with Loki will not set off the fire blast feature, because DE didn't code that kind of synergy into the game. The abilities just sort of work, mostly, and that's it for now. 

 

I know right ? Totaly goatfished here..well at least we dident pay for it but still it feels lame..its like DE has lost the masterplan for this game and now throw us cheesy bitesize things like " now you can redo all the planets on a next level" or "now you can sacrefise ur warframe to swap ability" all these thing sis just to make you play the game again from the beginning.

Its like what path of exile did in the start..play 3-4 acts over on 3 different kinds of levels . But they moved away from it and made 10 acts..now DE is stealing that plan and make us redo stuff instead of giving us something completly new and surprising never seen before expansion.

I just log in warframe 3-4 times in the week to deploy harvesters and maybe do a dayli mission or two and then thats its.

Im bored !

 

They make us redo the game instead of giving us new toys to chew on

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I'm not entirely in agreement with the OP's specific complaint, as I think it's probably for the better that we don't get to stack damage steroids on top of already existing damage steroids (though even then, that can be bypassed on some frames due to certain steroids not being listed as such), but otherwise I agree with the general sentiment that the Helminth system has failed to offer the freeform, diverse frame customization that was promised. I don't think there was ever a real chance for it to succeed on diversity while offering Roar as an ability nearly every frame can equip, not without nerfing the ability even more severely than they did for just that purpose.

More generally, the problem with modular systems such as these is that, in theory, they offer an incredible number of customization options, but in practice players gravitate towards optimal, which means that the system in question needs to either have very solid balance, or else devolves into a solved problem. Given Warframe's notoriously poor hold over its own balance, and the inclusion of abilities across various different tiers of power, the Helminth system was thus doomed from the start.

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9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm not entirely in agreement with the OP's specific complaint, as I think it's probably for the better that we don't get to stack damage steroids on top of already existing damage steroids (though even then, that can be bypassed on some frames due to certain steroids not being listed as such), but otherwise I agree with the general sentiment that the Helminth system has failed to offer the freeform, diverse frame customization that was promised. I don't think there was ever a real chance for it to succeed on diversity while offering Roar as an ability nearly every frame can equip, not without nerfing the ability even more severely than they did for just that purpose.

One could say that the problem isn't so much the Helminth, but Roar (or EVERY OTHER POWER, depends on how you want to look at it).

 

On 2020-10-11 at 9:32 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Most augments just... don't work when it's the subsumed version. A lot of synergies are just not available. For example, if you are using Firewalker, teleporting with Ash or Switch Teleporting with Loki will not set off the fire blast feature, because DE didn't code that kind of synergy into the game. The abilities just sort of work, mostly, and that's it for now. 

Damn this kind of Augment synergy would be rad. Even if maybe not all that practical.

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Just now, vaarnaaarne said:

One could say that the problem isn't so much the Helminth, but Roar (or EVERY OTHER POWER, depends on how you want to look at it).

Sure, but if you take away Roar, the next best option will inevitably dominate, and so will the next after that. It's not simply that most of the other powers are also mediocre, but that the balancing of abilities in general is so inconsistent that there would likely never be a diverse metagame around Helminth without some sort of overhaul of frame abilities and the way they're balanced.

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3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but if you take away Roar, the next best option will inevitably dominate, and so will the next after that. It's not simply that most of the other powers are also mediocre, but that the balancing of abilities in general is so inconsistent that there would likely never be a diverse metagame around Helminth without some sort of overhaul of frame abilities and the way they're balanced.

Agree, it's not really something that you can really fix. Roar is just kind of universally useful. In this situation you will end up with a catch-all meta if you don't make everything useless so there can be no meta.

But I do think that there is something to be learned from Helminth and what it tells about power balance, the problem that I think Helminth really highlights is how BAD most powers that do not have some sort of scaling effect. Self-buffs like Roar, Warcry, Firewalker, and Eclipse always outperform something that has nothing but a static damage value (and a mild CC) like Ice Wave, Tempest Barrage or Thermal Sunder. As do debuff and tanking like Pillage (tanking powers are kinda limited in Helminth right now, actually, since it's only just Pillage and Null Star really, since Eclipse is unreliable for something that's all about reliability). I'd say it really just demonstrates how Warframe powers should have some sort of scaling effect (in case of CC it obviously manifests a bit differently, ie how Larva is better because it disables AND gathers, which is what you want in a game about killing everything everywhere), rather than a static effect. The purely damage click powers fail precisely because they don't have scaling, and Roar is basically pure scaling.

 

I remain overall happy with Helminth despite how it highlights poor balance due to universal utility of Roar, since I do get to do some neat things like Firewalker on Gauss or Eternal War in various places, or in general just get rid of powers I'm *never* using anyway.

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