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Optimal usage of Steel fiber


Ymoraa

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Soo, I was thinking about which frames benefit more. Valkyr has 700 armor which gives %70 damage reduction, with full upgared umbra fiber, she has around 87.5 damage reduction. It made me realise is it really worth it ? Oberon prime has 225 armor,  42.9 Damage reduction. With normal steel fiber 473 armor and 61.2 Damage reduction. With nidus base 450 armor, %60 reduction. Normal steel fiber 780 armor 72.2 reduction.  So is low armor frames better for steel fiber?

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1 hour ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

unfortunately nidus's armour doesn't work like that:

yes, but i couldn't be bothered to take Nidus' Passive into account. OP mentioned some Armor values so i used those plus an extra to help visualize the scaling.

if you can be bothererd, go nuts.

1 hour ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

450 / 750 == 1 - 0.6 == 1 / 0.4 == 2.5
The RED number I'm certain is the damage resistance.
The GREEN number I'm certain is the damage multiplier, allowing you to multiply any damage value .
The BLUE number on the other hand seems to be an EHP multiplier?
So the final ORANGE number must be the increase to EHP resulting from the umbral fiber mod?

yes.

1 hour ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

If that is the case you can skip the extra step on each line

i'm not condensing the numbers as much as possible, i'm trying to show them in as much detail as possible. there's many other ways you could conclude this calculation, but the way i'm writing it goes step by step, nice and slow. so that others may learn to do this for themselves.

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30 minutes ago, OggerAZ said:

yeah I play him with primed Continuity overextended, stretch, streamline and the rest is utility/hp/armor.
That still doesn't make him good imo.

it doesn't, and he isn't really, but it's an accurate statement that Inaros has acceptable EHP via a big Health number, and also can offer quite respectable CC without any real cost.
still boring to play and Et Cetera, but.

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16 hours ago, taiiat said:

since the other features the Abilities offer aren't really worth considering, there's literally no reason to not have super high Range on Inaros so that your two main CC options affect very large areas and can still be spammed.

if yo're sticking on 45% and 60% Armor Mods onto Inaros, you're just doing it wrong.

yeah I play him with primed Continuity overextended, stretch, streamline and the rest is utility/hp/armor.

That still doesn't make him good imo.

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1 hour ago, OggerAZ said:

"plenty of cc" his 1 got a small aoe
his 2 allows you to actively cc a single enemy. wow.
his 3 is so slow it's not even worth mentioning.

and even if you were to go for the abilities that would make him a worse tank as you have less mods for hp,armor.
Inaros is just garbage if you want to minmax. all he can really do is to be a braindead tank.

since the other features the Abilities offer aren't really worth considering, there's literally no reason to not have super high Range on Inaros so that your two main CC options affect very large areas and can still be spammed.

if yo're sticking on 45% and 60% Armor Mods onto Inaros, you're just doing it wrong.

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17 hours ago, taiiat said:

as far as Players are concerned, Armor and DR are the same thing now, with the sole exclusion of Slash Status.

that's because other Warframes can have competitive EHP with Inaros, as long as you're not disallowing Abilities, or still within the ballpark even without.

Inaros has plenty of CC of his own, it's about being just Health with not much Armor or other protection to Multiply off of it.

"plenty of cc" his 1 got a small aoe

his 2 allows you to actively cc a single enemy. wow.

his 3 is so slow it's not even worth mentioning.

and even if you were to go for the abilities that would make him a worse tank as you have less mods for hp,armor.

Inaros is just garbage if you want to minmax. all he can really do is to be a braindead tank.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Late game armor doesnt do jack.   You need CC or true damage reduction and or shield gating.   

as far as Players are concerned, Armor and DR are the same thing now, with the sole exclusion of Slash Status.

4 hours ago, OggerAZ said:

That's why Inaros is considered bad by advanced players.

that's because other Warframes can have competitive EHP with Inaros, as long as you're not disallowing Abilities, or still within the ballpark even without.

Inaros has plenty of CC of his own, it's about being just Health with not much Armor or other protection to Multiply off of it.

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On 2020-10-11 at 10:39 AM, Ymoraa said:

Soo, I was thinking about which frames benefit more. Valkyr has 700 armor which gives %70 damage reduction, with full upgared umbra fiber, she has around 87.5 damage reduction. It made me realise is it really worth it ? Oberon prime has 225 armor,  42.9 Damage reduction. With normal steel fiber 473 armor and 61.2 Damage reduction. With nidus base 450 armor, %60 reduction. Normal steel fiber 780 armor 72.2 reduction.  So is low armor frames better for steel fiber?

That's problem of armor scaling right now.

It's only worth using a single mod as mod slots are precious and you get diminishing returns for additional mods used.

As pretty much all armor mods scale multiplicative and not additive it is only useful to use a single mod (preferrably umbra/steel fibre) on frames with a good base armor.

Armor mods can be useful if they scale onto abilities like Rhino's Iron Skin.

If you want to survive against enemies from steel path or even harder armor alone won't suffice. CC, invis, evasion, shield gating or all of them combined are needed. :)

 

That's why Inaros is considered bad by advanced players.

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18 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'm not condensing the numbers as much as possible, i'm trying to show them in as much detail as possible. there's many other ways you could conclude this calculation, but the way i'm writing it goes step by step, nice and slow. so that others may learn to do this for themselves.

understood 👍

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45 minutes ago, taiiat said:

450 / 750 == 1 - 0.6 == 1 / 0.4 == 2.5
450 * 2.925 == 1316.25 / 1616.25 == 1 - 0.8143 == 1 / 0.1856 == 5.3875
5.3875 / 2.5 == 2.155 X

I'm assuming this bit is for nidus? unfortunately nidus's armour doesn't work like that:

Armour mods work similar to health/shield mods in that they increase your armour off of the base armour. Now, for every other warframe in the game this doesn't mean anything as their armour does not increase with rank, but nidus is a special case.
So you need to multiply nidus' base 300 by 2.925 and then add the 150 from the rank bonuses, so the equation should look like:

450 / 750 == 1 - 0.6 == 1 / 0.4 == 2.5
300 * 2.925 + 150 == 1027.5 / 1327.5 == 1 - 0.7740 == 1 / 0.2260 == 4.4248
4.4248 / 2.5 == 1.7699 X

 

BTW, i just want to confirm I'm looking at your numbers correctly:
450 / 750 == 1 - 0.6 == 1 / 0.4 == 2.5
The RED number I'm certain is the damage resistance.
The GREEN number I'm certain is the damage multiplier, allowing you to multiply any damage value .
The BLUE number on the other hand seems to be an EHP multiplier?
So the final ORANGE number must be the increase to EHP resulting from the umbral fiber mod?

If that is the case you can skip the extra step on each line and instead get the same number with:
(unmodded DM) / (modded DM) = EHP INCREASE
0.4 / 0.226= 1.7699 X

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i'm assuming 3/3 Umbral Fiber here i guess

700 / 300 == 1 - 0.7 == 1 / 0.3 == 3.333r
700 * 2.925 ==  2047.5 / 2347.5 == 1 - 0.8722 == 1 / 0.1277 == 7.824999r
7.824999r / 3.333r == 2.3475r X

225 / 525 == 1 - 0.4285 == 1 / 0.4285 == 1.75
225 * 2.925 == 658.125 / 958.125 == 1 - 0.6868 == 1 / 0.3131 == 3.19375
3.19375 / 1.75 == 1.825 X

450 / 750 == 1 - 0.6 == 1 / 0.4 == 2.5
450 * 2.925 == 1316.25 / 1616.25 == 1 - 0.8143 == 1 / 0.1856 == 5.3875
5.3875 / 2.5 == 2.155 X

 

and just for fun i'll throw in a low value:
100 / 400 == 1 - 0.25 == 1 / 0.75 == 1.333r
100 * 2.925 == 292.5 / 592.5 == 1 - 0.4936 == 1 / 0.5063 == 1.975
1.975 / 1.333r == 1.4812 X

you tell me at what point the EHP gain is worth it to you. or if you'd prefer to have something else.
or don't tell me so much as tell yourself.

just compare things as a relative bonus. how much does this give you versus how much could something else give you instead. if something else gives you more, then yes perhaps use that instead.

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1 hour ago, Ymoraa said:

Soo, I was thinking about which frames benefit more. Valkyr has 700 armor which gives %70 damage reduction, with full upgared umbra fiber, she has around 87.5 damage reduction. It made me realise is it really worth it ?

Think it this way: with steel fiber, you are taking 30% of the total damage and with fully upgraded umbral fiber, you are taking 12.5% of the damage. With umbral fiber you are taking less than half the damage you were taking with steel fiber. If you get shot for 100 damage, the damage reduction would make that 30 and 12.5 damage respectively, making the umbral setup over twice the EHP even without considering the health from umbral vitality.

Too bad Valkyr is total poo regardless of how tanky she is.

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1 hour ago, Ymoraa said:

Soo, I was thinking about which frames benefit more. Valkyr has 700 armor which gives %70 damage reduction, with full upgared umbra fiber, she has around 87.5 damage reduction. It made me realise is it really worth it ? Oberon prime has 225 armor,  42.9 Damage reduction. With normal steel fiber 473 armor and 61.2 Damage reduction. With nidus base 450 armor, %60 reduction. Normal steel fiber 780 armor 72.2 reduction.  So is low armor frames better for steel fiber?

Well lets say Valkyr Prime gets hit with 100 damage, with no armour mods she receives 30 damage. With a full powered umral forma (max rank, full set) she recieves 12.8 damage.
That's basically a 57.4% reduction in damage with one mod (not to mention the umbral fiber also boosts the power of umbral vitality and intensify).

If we do the same check on Oberon Prime we end up with 57.1 damage without UF and 31.3 damage with UF (45.2% reduction)

Nidus: 40 dmg without, 22.6 dmg with (43.5% reduction)

The lowest armour available is 100, so lets look at that: 75 dmg without, 50.6 with (32.5% reduction)

Ignoring nidus' unique armour scaling, generally you will get better results from higher base armour ratings. That is not to say the damage reduction from fiber mods is insignificant on low armour frames, but you should instead seek alternative means of damage reduction (abilities, flat armour boosts like health conversion, ect)

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It depends on what you expect from your warframes, gaining 17.5% damage reduction with a mod is a great choice. Since steel fiber is multiplicativly applied with your armor and growing your armor is less and less effective in terms of additional damage reduction, yes, you should be aware that it may be mostly unnecessary. Also if you already use things like the arcane guardian it can be useless too. In addition to armored warframes, those with low armor stats will not benefit as much from steel fiber due to its multiplicative application. So no, using steel fiber on them will still be rather useless.

The major factor in that choice is in what missions and at which level are you bringing your warframes. If you take your Valkyr with steel fiber (and maybe more armor mods) in a long survival in steel path, it won't be enough to fill the gap between enemies' leveling, their damage increase and your resistances. For that kind of stuff, you have to find other ways to be resistant. But in more classical mission you will be practicly unkillable which is nice and brings a lot of confort.

Also as it was said take in consideration that some warframe abilities scale with armor mods.

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no, you use steel fiber on tanky frames. nidus / inaros makes sense since they are all HP, and armor only effects HP. for rest, with the introduction of shield gating. most players focus on that for survival. casual gameplay where you dont need much endurance, using armor mods wont be beneficial. some abilities like Rhino's iron skin or frost globe gets effected by armor mods. 

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Well for valkyr would you rather take 30% damage or 12.5% damage

OberonP 57.1% damage or 38.8% Damage taken

There are diminishing returns on armor damage reduction, but for frames with higher armor it's easier to reach that point.

You'd need to weigh the benefits and what you prefer to survive with

Be it higher armor/health, adaptation, shield gating, shield restoring.

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