Railjack battle avionics cost too much energy

[PublikDomain]

52 minutes ago, mikakor said:

some frame are better fit for some content, just like a limbo will be good in a mobile defence but won't serve much purpose in a capture. you point being? it's perfectly normal to have frames that performs better. yet in railjack at least, your frame does not influence the game to the point where all the others are useless, they will still be extremely useful. 

the whole energy = flux issue is such an overblown problem. a mountain out of an anthill. 

My point being that tying Warframe and Railjack energy together does nothing positive for anyone. Either you're cheesing the system with Protea or Hildryn or Lavos and turning Railjack into an even easier snoozefest than it already was, or you're wasting your resources on energy pads for no reason, or you're forced into a Flow build even if you like efficiency, or you do none of the above and get to cast your abilities once before having to go to the Forge. None of that is good, and none of that needs to be the case.

Your Reactor could just generate ship energy over time, because it's a reactor and that's what they do. Then you don't need a specific frame to fly the ship because all frames can fly the ship equally. Then you don't need to spam energy pads and can* use something other than Flow. Then the mode can be balanced because spamming a Seeker Volley or Void Hole every other few seconds for free forever wouldn't be possible in the first place. Then Railjack could be more than just a taxi getting you from A to B, because stuff could happen that requires more gameplay than "push 3 to win".

[PublikDomain]

26 minutes ago, mikakor said:

so basically, exploiter orb, where your weapon of choice or your warframe didn't mattered in the slightest, making any choice irrelevant. 

No, you just have to choose how to build your Railjack for the Railjack content.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

My point being that tying Warframe and Railjack energy together does nothing positive for anyone. Either you're cheesing the system with Protea or Hildryn or Lavos and turning Railjack into an even easier snoozefest than it already was, or you're wasting your resources on energy pads for no reason, or you're forced into a Flow build even if you like efficiency, or you do none of the above and get to cast your abilities once before having to go to the Forge. None of that is good, and none of that needs to be the case.

Your Reactor could just generate ship energy over time, because it's a reactor and that's what they do. Then you don't need a specific frame to fly the ship because all frames can fly the ship equally. Then you don't need to spam energy pads and use something other than Flow. Then the mode can be balanced because spamming a Seeker Volley or Void Hole every other few seconds for free forever wouldn't be possible in the first place. Then Railjack could be more than just a taxi getting you from A to B, because stuff could happen that requires more gameplay than "push 3 to win".

[mikakor]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

My point being that tying Warframe and Railjack energy together does nothing positive for anyone

again, don't say that, it's false. for ME, it's positive. i prefer railjack this way, and de facto, makes this argument invalid. and if i like it, other does, and so on. 
 

 

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

Either you're cheesing the system with Protea or Hildryn or Lavos and turning Railjack into an even easier snoozefest than it already was

it makes the gameplay that much more fluid, you mean? 

 

 

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

you're forced into a Flow build even if you like efficiency, or you do none of the above and get to cast your abilities once before having to go to the Forge. None of that is good, and none of that needs to be the case.

"a forced flow build" damn, i didn't knew that putting a single mod required you to build ENTIRELY around it.  if it's that much of a problem, i think you need to diversify your warframe choices. 
 

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Then you don't need a specific frame to fly the ship because all frames can fly the ship equally.

so again, your warframe choice doens't matter for railjack then, which just sucks.  

 

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Then you don't need to spam energy pads and use something other than Flow. Then the mode can be balanced because spamming a Seeker Volley or Void Hole every other few seconds for free forever wouldn't be possible in the first place

you what mate? a fully kitted railjack even in past update could still do that. i was doing it regularly. 

[mikakor]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

No, you just have to choose how to build your Railjack for the Railjack content.

sadly for you, DE wanted to mix more warframe core gameplay and elements with railjack. and that's only by making them interact with each other that it's possible. to connect them. so that even in normal warframe mission, you can gain stuff that will affect railjack. and this IS good. 

yall complaining about content island, then when the main warframe game influence railjack, yall *@##$ing about how this should stay separated and what not? 

[PublikDomain]

11 minutes ago, mikakor said:

so again, your warframe choice doens't matter for railjack then, which just sucks.  

Why is turning your frame into a stat-stick better than just modding your ship directly? How?

And yes, your frame would still matter for Railjack. It would matter where it should actually matter, that being the times where you actually use your Warframe like for repelling boarders or getting onto Crewships or doing the B-side mission.

11 minutes ago, mikakor said:

you what mate? a fully kitted railjack even in past update could still do that. i was doing it regularly. 

Yeah, and it was stupidly broken. Tether ruined the old Railjack experience the same way infinite energy ruins the new one.

11 minutes ago, mikakor said:

i think you need to diversify your warframe choices. 

I don't need to because I can just play Protea and turn that part of the game off! No muss, no fuss.

11 minutes ago, mikakor said:

it makes the gameplay that much more fluid, you mean? 

And no, having to stop the ship and get out of the pilot seat to place another Dispensary or Void Dash does not make the gameplay "that much more fluid". It's "that much more fluid" if you use Hildryn or Lavos, I guess, but that kind of fluidity could be gained by making the Reactor generate energy instead without any of the downsides the current energy economy presents.

[Aldain]

You know another way they could have solved the "Flux Energy" issue?

By making it PER PLAYER so we wouldn't have the "STOP WASTING MY FLUX" issue.

That's all that needed to change, but instead we get more energy spam in yet another part of Warframe further trivializing everything.

3 minutes ago, mikakor said:

yall complaining about content island, then when the main warframe game influence railjack, yall *@##$ing about how this should stay separated and what not? 

That's why the Flux Energy change has nothing at all to do with content island issues, it just trivialized already easy content further and has only added more to the "gameplay is a waste of time" landfill that Warframe has been sinking into more and more over time.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Why did DE remove Flux? If they made it so that Ordnance and Dome Charges are unique per player, they could've done the same with Flux.

[mikakor]

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Why is turning your frame into a stat-stick better than just modding your ship directly? How?

i didn't knew putting ONE different mod into your build was making your whole warframe solely dedicated to that one thing. maybe you should take out all the other mods of your build and only leave flow then, since that's what you're implying. that it's only that, a stat stick. 

turns out, no, it's actually just a part of what your warframe is used for in railjack. there's all the rest too. agian, the diversity this brings is that much more useful than just "no one is special, don't think, no choice will do anything" . this kind of logic was disgusting for exploiter where nothing that you would pick matter, and it is disgusting on what you're saying too. 

 

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And yes, your frame would still matter for Railjack. It would matter where it should actually matter, that being the times where you actually use your Warframe like for repelling boarders or getting onto Crewships or doing the B-side mission.

you can still do that now. so it matters at these things, but ALSO at fueling your railjack. again, ntohing bad with this, your warframe is just doing another role. 

 

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Yeah, and it was stupidly broken. Tether ruined the old Railjack experience the same way infinite energy ruins the new one.

i just used void hole and vortex. so for me this doens't changes anything, and so, putting energy rather than flux doesn't change anything, beside making the gameplay more fluid and having to less spend time again and again in the forge. 

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't need to because I can just play Protea and turn that part of the game off! No muss, no fuss.

you can do that, or use ALLLLLL the other ways of generating energy :) if you don't want to use them, it's your choice. but they're here.

 

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And no, having to stop to get out of the pilot seat and stop flying the ship to place another Dispensary does not make the gameplay "that much more fluid".

it does, that much better than having to constantly having to get back at your forge every 3 ability used. 

 

6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

You know another way they could have solved the "Flux Energy" issue?

By making it PER PLAYER so we wouldn't have the "STOP WASTING MY FLUX" issue.

That's all that needed to change, but instead we get more energy spam in yet another part of Warframe further trivializing everything.

That's why the Flux Energy change has nothing at all to do with content island issues, it just trivialized already easy content further and has only added more to the "gameplay is a waste of time" landfill that Warframe has been sinking into more and more over time.

nah, flux sucked as a whole. per player or for the whole group. personally i'm much more happier that way. my warframe influence my behavior in railjack, the gameplay is faste,r i don't have to go to the forge so often anymore, i'm just happy

[Seph-Aldaire]

4 minutes ago, mikakor said:

i'm not sure what you mean by that. when you forge something, it forges it for everyone. 

It doesn't seem to on my end. I tried running with a friend on the new modes and any time he or I would forge it would refill our own but not eachothers. This happened on every run over the course of 2 days.

[mikakor]

6 minutes ago, Aldeseo said:

It doesn't seem to on my end. I tried running with a friend on the new modes and any time he or I would forge it would refill our own but not eachothers. This happened on every run over the course of 2 days.

this is strange. the intended effect normally is that when a player forge something, it forges for everyone else in the cell. 

[PublikDomain]

9 minutes ago, mikakor said:

putting energy rather than flux doesn't change anything, beside making the gameplay more fluid and having to less spend time again and again in the forge. 

...

it does, that much better than having to constantly having to get back at your forge every 3 ability used. 

Which is why the Reactor should generate energy. If it generated energy on its own you wouldn't need to go back to the Forge unless you really needed more. Then the "fluid gameplay" you're on about could be the default experience and not something you only get by using a limited set of frames or strategies.

What we have now is exactly what you're saying was a bad thing: that you have to run back to the Forge every 1 ability used unless you use Flow. My Khora has 188 energy built for Efficiency, so I can cast 1 Seeker Volley before being entirely out and having to go back to the Forge. Even if I take Primed Flow, I can only cast Seeker Volley *ding ding ding* 3 times before needing more energy. That's exactly what you're saying is a bad thing, no? So why is it suddenly a good thing? Because you can cheese it? The only way to prevent having to go back to the Forge every couple of abilities is if you use one of the limited set of tools like energy pads or Dispensary or a frame that doesn't have energy to begin with, which reduces the number of viable choices you can make.

[mikakor]

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is why the Reactor should generate energy. If it generated energy on its own you wouldn't need to go back to the Forge unless you really needed more.

could be good, but knowing DE the amount generated would be negligeable. 

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

not something you only get by using a limited set of frames or strategies.

ho please stop. again, EVERY frames can be used and be effective. each and every single one of them do a very good work, with no exception. some simply does it better, and that's normal. 
 

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

My Khora has 188 energy built for Efficiency, so I can cast 1 Seeker Volley

make another build for railjack, then. problem solved. you have three build slot, 6 if you pay a bit of plat. what's the big deal? sounds like you're the one who doesn't wanna adapt your build. or more commonly called "a YOU problem" 

 

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

That's exactly what you're saying is a bad thing, no? So why is it suddenly a good thing? Because you can cheese it? The only way to prevent having to go back to the Forge every couple of abilities is if you use one of the limited set of tools like energy pads or Dispensary or a frame that doesn't have energy to begin with, which reduces the number of viable choices you can make.

having infinite energy would be better, i guess. but still, this system is better than flux, because it happens that much less often. second, your warframe choice has never bene more open to what you can chose to run RJ. even tho it's linked to energy, you have 4 different ways of building it back up, so from the get go the complains of "not enough energy" are annoying, but on top of that, PRETENDING that there isn't choices or that the choices to be effective are limited is complete and pure bullcrap. any warframe will work just well. again, some will work better, that's it. and just a tidbit better, because the others will be following closely behind. 

[Seph-Aldaire]

9 minutes ago, mikakor said:

this is strange. the intended effect normally is that when a player forge something, it forges for everyone else in the cell. 

Thanks for letting me know I met a bug at least.

[PublikDomain]

14 minutes ago, mikakor said:

make another build for railjack, then. problem solved. you have three build slot, 6 if you pay a bit of plat. what's the big deal? sounds like you're the one who doesn't wanna adapt your build. or more commonly called "a YOU problem" 

Did you miss where I told you what Primed Flow gets me? It gets me 3 casts of Seeker Volley instead of 1. Then I'd have to go back to the Forge, which is identical to what you were saying was bad in the old system.

46 minutes ago, mikakor said:

that much better than having to constantly having to get back at your forge every 3 ability used. 

Because you do realize that most frames don't have their own energy generation mechanics, right? So what are your options after you take Flow, which is barely enough to reach parity with what we used to have?

• Energy Pads
• Zenurik
• Subsume Dispensary

Energy pads are wasteful, Zenurik is too slow, and if you're going to use Dispensary you might as well use the good version and just use Protea - or one of the two frames that can otherwise ignore the system.

19 minutes ago, mikakor said:

having infinite energy would be better, i guess. but still, this system is better than flux, because it happens that much less often. second, your warframe choice has never bene more open to what you can chose to run RJ. even tho it's linked to energy, you have 4 different ways of building it back up, so from the get go the complains of "not enough energy" are annoying, but on top of that, PRETENDING that there isn't choices or that the choices to be effective are limited is complete and pure bullcrap. any warframe will work just well. again, some will work better, that's it. and just a tidbit better, because the others will be following closely behind. 

You only have to craft energy less often if you're cheesing it. If you use a low-energy frame like Ash or Khora you cannot generate energy on your own without using pads or subsuming Dispensary - Flow or not. Unless you're cheesing it by using one of the few good options available you have to craft energy at the Forge more often because your energy pool is now smaller because your Reactor no longer contributes.

And because of that no, your frame choice is not the most open it's ever been in Railjack. It's the least. Previously it didn't matter what you brought, you could bring an unmodded Excalibur if you really wanted to and it wouldn't affect your ship at all. That's no longer the case.

[mikakor]

23 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Previously it didn't matter what you brought, you could bring an unmodded Excalibur if you really wanted to and it wouldn't affect your ship at all.

and so, there was no actual choice. there was no choice, ebfore, because nothing mattered. there was NO meaningful choice, now there is. 

 

25 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Energy pads are wasteful, Zenurik is too slow, and if you're going to use Dispensary you might as well use the good version and just use Protea - or one of the two frames that can otherwise ignore the system.

or you subsume, and poof, all of your frames can use it. you just don't want to adapt. you don't want to change your builds to fit the content they're in. now we have more choice, rather than no meaningful choice. 

 

26 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Then I'd have to go back to the Forge, which is identical to what you were saying was bad in the old system.

it's a you problem, because there are now other options than just the forge. stop complaining, and use them. if you don't, that's your problem, but the solutions are here, they are easy to use, and i repeat, EVERY warframes can now work in railjack. all. of. them. 

 

if you're refusing to adapt your build, then stay here whinning, i'll be playing rialjack and enjoying my time while some people just can't be bothered changing a little slot in their ho-so-precious builds that shall never be modified. 

[PublikDomain]

23 minutes ago, mikakor said:

there was NO meaningful choice, now there is.

And now the "meaningful choice" eliminates all but a few options and limits your freedom to build how you want on the frames you want.

24 minutes ago, mikakor said:

or you subsume, and poof, all of your frames can use it.

IE reducing my choices. There's no longer a meaningful choice because there's the scant few good choices and the horde of comparably bad choices. Which have I chosen? One of the scant few choices over the horde of other, more interesting options. Not because I want to, but because that choice makes all of the others look moronic in comparison.

Instead of subsuming Dispensary on every frame, why not just have the Reactor generate energy? Then poof, all my frames can be used.

27 minutes ago, mikakor said:

because there are now other options than just the forge.

Options which either burn resources for no reason, can't keep up, or reduce your actual choices. 🤦‍♀️

[mikakor]

34 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And now the "meaningful choice" eliminates all but a few options and limits your freedom to build how you want on the frames you want.

agian, this is complete and utter bull. EVERY frame works. some works better, but they all work VERY well... if you stop being a stubborn man and adapt your build. it's a YOU problem. are you going to build for a hyper tanky wukong for a capture and then complain that the other choice ( that is building for his speed with cloud ) is unfair and should be the same as you? NO. you build for the cloud, or you just stop talking. you're saying your choice of warframe is limited, but this is just a pure lie. 

 

34 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Options which either burn resources for no reason, can't keep up, or reduce your actual choices. 🤦‍♀️

no reason? if you use pad, it's normal that is uses ressource. second, Zenurik DO keep up. you simply will not be able to use your abilities as quick as with dispenser or pizza. and lastly, dispenser reduce your choices? if anything, they allow you to select any warframe and make them work. again, you and you alone are the one who refuses to adapt. change your builds, rather than stubbornly trying to blunt your all around build. just like in any mission type, you WILL adapt your build if you want the better result. or we can just all turn into inaros with no energy at all , same gun, same melee, same pet and same focus school, cause that's what you want. there wouldn't be any choice with your view. 
 

34 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Instead of subsuming Dispensary on every frame, why not just have the Reactor generate energy? Then poof, all my frames can be used.

again, irrelevant. if we were tlaking any other developers, i might agree with this idea, but DE would make even the best reactor not sufficient enough so that it would be negligible. so it doesn't matter, and wouldn't matter either way. 

Edit : give me picture of your Khora build and tell me which mission to do on Railjack, we'll see how it goes for me, i'm curious if it's as horrible as you pretend. 

[Nichivo]

12 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I think it's less of an issue than you're making it, I use Mesa without equipping Flow and have no issues. I also used other frames other than Valkyr for my Archwing and didn't die. Yes basing it off our energy is stupid but not for this reason. It's stupid because we CAN spam abilities forever this way, not because abilities cost too much energy lol.

No you can't... The cost of the abilities ramps up the more you use them. In the case of say hildryn you can use what is it 2 volleys and then your locked out of volley till the counter comes back down and wow the shield counter for non energy frames takes forever to lower. It's bad because all frames are not designed with large base energy pools, even with unlimited pizzas, zenurik, etc etc they get locked out of battle avionics faster. At least Flux was balanced, and left everyone playing the same game, and managing the same resource. They just needed a way to prevent random pugs from spending the hosts resources as a fix for problems, and it would have been fine.

[mikakor]

4 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

No you can't... The cost of the abilities ramps up the more you use them.

only if you spam. if you wait exactly 6 seconds, the cost is back to it's original. ( yes i did count ) 

[Nichivo]

Just now, mikakor said:

only if you spam. if you wait exactly 6 seconds, the cost is back to it's original. 

That is what I just said. Read it again. It was a response to him saying you can spam.

[mikakor]

Just now, Nichivo said:

That is what I just said. Read it again. It was a response to him saying you can spam.

my bad, only read your answer. 

[Vaml77]

11 hours ago, mikakor said:

something even better for the babies here whining about energy : you can craft it in your forge. just like with flux system. here you go, no more problem. OR, OR, hear me out. 

Dispensery / Pizza / Zenurik. 

you got three VERY easy ways to get your energy, two being without any permanant ressource cost, and is way better than flux ever was. 

Craft energy or use zenurik to use railjack skills its so ......wrong and non sense.

DE just need to bring back flux energy ...problem solved. But i dont expect anything from DE about good designs....last patch says everything they are clueless -.-

 

[mikakor]

2 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

Craft energy or use zenurik to use railjack skills its so ......wrong and non sense.

De just need to bring back flux energy ...problem solved. But i dont expect anything from DE about good designs....last patch says everything they are clueless -.-

 

hell no, flux was clunky as all hell. energy warframe is a thousand time better. it still has some very small drawbacks, but it will be this over flux everyday of the week. 

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, mikakor said:

are you going to build for a hyper tanky wukong for a capture and then complain that the other choice ( that is building for his speed with cloud ) is unfair

Of course not, because building a Warframe for a Warframe-focused mission makes perfect and total sense.

What wouldn't make sense is if modding Wukong to be tanky affected a game mode which wasn't Warframe-focused, like Archwing. Then there'd be a problem: you'd be incentivized to only use tanky builds for that mode, which would limit the number of options available to you because some frames and builds can be tanky and others can't. Modding your Warframe as an EHP stat-stick for your Archwing would be a dumb idea, a dumb idea that previously existed and was patched right out of the game.

Just like how it'd be a problem if your Warframe abilities affected your Railjack's damage. Then you'd be incentivized to use only frames with damage buffing abilities like Rhino, which would similarly limit the number of options available to you because some frames can buff damage a whole bunch and most cannot. Modding your Warframe to be an ability stat-stick for your Railjack would be another dumb idea, a dumb idea that previously existed and was patched right out of the game.

Which brings us to having your Warframe as an energy stat-stick for your Railjack. It incentivizes using a small number of energy tools, because these tools allow you to quickly and cheaply produce a lot of energy that isn't available if you choose other things. Modding your Warframe to be an energy stat-stick for your Railjack is yet another dumb idea that should be patched right out of the game, like the similar dumb mechanics before it.

We've been over this same issue many times in the past and the answer is always crystal clear: giving players a small number of good choices and a boatload of comparably bad choices results in less variety and freedom of choice. Players choose the better tools, in your own words "you WILL adapt your build if you want the better result". Your choice doesn't matter because there is no choice when all of the other options are worse in every way.

1 hour ago, mikakor said:

no reason? if you use pad, it's normal that is uses ressource. second, Zenurik DO keep up. you simply will not be able to use your abilities as quick as with dispenser or pizza. and lastly, dispenser reduce your choices? if anything, they allow you to select any warframe and make them work.

Compared to using Dispensary, yes. Pads spend resources you don't need to be spending; you could do better not spending them at all. There is no reason to flush those resources down the toilet like that when you could do better using other tools for free.

And no, Zenurik cannot keep up with spamming abilities that cost hundreds of energy per cast, not compared to other alternatives like Dispensary or even pads. It takes ~30 seconds to generate enough energy through Zenurik for one cast of Seeker Volley. Meanwhile using Dispensary I can belt of 5-6 in the same timespan and Dispensary lasts twice as long so I have to get out of the seat half as often. This is hardly comparable.

Just to drive this nail home, here's a comparison of your "options" over 30 seconds (at 2x speed so they'll fit):

Like you say, "you will not be able to use your abilities as quick" which is exactly what I'm saying is the problem. You're less than 1/5th as effective using Zenurik as you are using Dispensary on Protea. And since Dispensary has a Duration penalty when subsumed on other frames it does much worse in that context and you're better off skipping the extra work and just using Protea instead.

If Railjacks carried over a Warframe's energy efficiency, then maybe it wouldn't be as much of an issue. You'd still be pigeonholed into a smaller number of options than if it were just on Reactors where it makes so much more sense, but at least you'd have one more choice. Though still, having to get out of the pilot seat and stop flying the ship every 30 seconds to re-up Energizing Dash or Dispensary doesn't sound very much like the "fluid gameplay" you're talking about. It sounds the opposite of "fluid", it sounds janky AF.

1 hour ago, mikakor said:

i might agree with this idea, but DE would make even the best reactor not sufficient enough so that it would be negligible.

And why would they intentionally create under-performing Reactors? Because they're evil and hate kittens? Because they're stupid? Maybe I have a little more faith in them than you do, idk.

1 hour ago, mikakor said:

if anything, they allow you to select any warframe and make them work. again, you and you alone are the one who refuses to adapt. change your builds, rather than stubbornly trying to blunt your all around build. just like in any mission type, you WILL adapt your build if you want the better result. or we can just all turn into inaros with no energy at all , same gun, same melee, same pet and same focus school, cause that's what you want. there wouldn't be any choice with your view. 

He says, ignoring that I've already said I've changed my build. I didn't just change the build either, it's a whole new frame! I've already changed, my point is that in this case I shouldn't have to.

And no, if they put energy on Reactors where it belongs I'll use whatever frame and build I feel like playing that day because I'll actually be able to.

1 hour ago, mikakor said:

Edit : give me picture of your Khora build and tell me which mission to do on Railjack, we'll see how it goes for me, i'm curious if it's as horrible as you pretend. 

Spoiler

Have fun getting out of the pilot seat every Seeker Volley, I know I don't. 188 Energy doesn't go a very long way in Railjack.

ETA: Doesn't really matter where you go.