Railjack battle avionics cost too much energy

[-CdG-Zilchy]

12 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Did we ever run out of energy spamming tether previously? Spamming abilities really isnt an issue because it only takes care of the small fighters which should be fodder enemies anyway and definitely not what the missions are balanced around. Railjack missions have to be more than just caring about tiny fighters.

No but I also wasn't a fan of how easy Tether made the game mode. If you'd tried spamming void hole you might have had a different experience but of course it wasn't necessary. I do agree with the second point however and I think the new missions are a step in the right direction however now they need to SUPER SIZE the capital ships we're invading and introduce new game modes like they have with Volatile, keep doing that. We need missions to take down a massive capital ship's shields from the inside while others stay outside and fly the Railjack through a dogfight etc. that kind of thing. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 1 Minute schrieb -CdG-Zilchy:

No but I also wasn't a fan of how easy Tether made the game mode. If you'd tried spamming void hole you might have had a different experience but of course it wasn't necessary. I do agree with the second point however and I think the new missions are a step in the right direction however now they need to SUPER SIZE the capital ships we're invading and introduce new game modes like they have with Volatile, keep doing that. We need missions to take down a massive capital ship's shields from the inside while others stay outside and fly the Railjack through a dogfight etc. that kind of thing. 

Ground and railjack part of the mission really need to start happening at the same time and soloability needs to be sacrificed for that. IMO ground and space should have to watch out for each other aswell. For example ground squad could get an additional objective having to shut off torpedoes before they kill the ship and railjack crew could get an objective to stop crewships from reaching the capitol ship.

[Bakaguya-sama]

Just now, Drachnyn said:

Railjack missions have to be more than just caring about tiny fighters.

You keep saying this but what should Railjack be balanced around then, in your opinion?  

Balanced around being a taxi to take you into a Defense or Exterminate like DE did?  Why even have Railjack in the first place?  

Balanced around killing crew ship which revolves around 1 guy sitting in the same position all game, wait until the pilot drive up to a crewship point blank and then hold down lmb? Yeah some really fun and engaging gameplay right there.  

Or balanced around gimmick objectives like Hijack or Defection missions? Escort this slow moving thing across he map? Oh because people absolutely love playing those game modes?   

If you want more complexity that that, you will never get it. It's very clear that the original vision for railjack is severely limited by the game being hosted client side, and raising the minimum specs requirement is suicide for DE.  

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

13 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Ground and railjack part of the mission really need to start happening at the same time and soloability needs to be sacrificed for that. IMO ground and space should have to watch out for each other aswell. For example ground squad could get an additional objective having to shut off torpedoes before they kill the ship and railjack crew could get an objective to stop crewships from reaching the capitol ship.

YESSSSSS

[chaotea]

1 hour ago, vegetosayajin said:

that maybe your point, and it's a logical point, but... nerf hammer doesn't see logic, doesn't see fun, it sees only stats and nerf hammer SMASH, smash puny users 

What nerf though? If its energy instead of Flux, thats really a buff, because if you ran out of resourses you couldnt make any more, whereas now you can just do any of the 100 things to get energy.

If its lavos having timers, i dont really understand if its a nerf because i havnt tried it.

[Drachnyn]

Gerade eben schrieb Bakaguya-sama:

You keep saying this but what should Railjack be balanced around then, in your opinion?  

Balanced around being a taxi to take you into a Defense or Exterminate like DE did?  Why even have Railjack in the first place?  

Balanced around killing crew ship which revolves around 1 guy sitting in the same position all game, wait until the pilot drive up to a crewship point blank and then hold down lmb? Yeah some really fun and engaging gameplay right there.  

Or balanced around gimmick objectives like Hijack or Defection missions? Escort this slow moving thing across he map? Oh because people absolutely love playing those game modes?   

If you want more complexity that that, you will never get it. It's very clear that the original vision for railjack is severely limited by the game being hosted client side, and raising the minimum specs requirement is suicide for DE.  

 

If this is the peak of complexity then railjack has failed. In my oppinion disruption is the best regular gamemode DE has ever made because it involves moving around, doing good damage and is also accelerated by how well you are doing. Railjack has the potential to be similar just instead of keeping demos away from conduits, it could be keeping crewships away from capitol ships. Disruption managed to still let you kill as much normal enemies as you want with giant aoe abilities but it is a lot less relevant. At the same time it incentivizes not camping in the same room because the quicker you find out spawn patterns for the current room setup, the quicker you can find the approaching demos.

I agree that the forward artillery is not well designed, I spent a number of missions just sitting in that myself. IMO it should be added to the pilot seat and firing it should not be locked behind an intrinsic.

Most importantly, ground and space part need to start happening at the same time, not be entirely disconnected. I am aware that this will kill soloability but that's a sacrifice we need to make for the sake of complexity. IMO balancing can only be a concern once we have achieved some engaging complexity.

[SneakyErvin]

IMO Lavos should be the benchmark for how battle avionics work. It just currently feels the best. Hildryn is a good runner up choice aswell, it could even be combined with reintroducing Flux and just having it reg overtime at the pace hildryn's shields does.

[Yamazuki]

35 minutes ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

If you want more complexity that that, you will never get it. It's very clear that the original vision for railjack is severely limited by the game being hosted client side, and raising the minimum specs requirement is suicide for DE.  

 

Railjack is limited more by the fact it "needs" to be soloed, rather than hardware or network limitations. There's a reason why even content before Railjack is all highly simplistic. People complained when DE announced Railjack was a co-op experience, which was a lie, but regardless, they made Railjack even easier and then still released npcs that solo the Railjack part.

DE just needs to stop trying to appease both opposite groups. 

[Vaml77]

Totally clueless guy^^

 

 

[Vaml77]

6 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

Totally clueless guy^^

But was DE idea and we warned many times ! 

 

 

[vegetosayajin]

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

What nerf though?

Do I have to spell it - every item that gets overused for an activity(becomes the one and only meta) at some time in the future(days, months or even years) will get nerfed, or "adjusted", or "balanced". Sometimes it's a panic nerf(like with limbo during the ss event), sometimes it gradual(like with kuva bramma), or sometimes it lingers around for a year or more without being touched(catchmoon, exodia etc). And because the eyes are on railjack at the moment if the things are left in it's current state sooner or later you will see only lavoses in the mode(actually yesterday I loaded into 5 random missions and all of them had from 1 to 3 lavoses in). I am sure someone will come with the stupid excuse "you don't work for de, you don't know how they work" and bla bla, but this is what I think will happen.Will it be tomorrow - probably not, but maybe after a month or two it will happen if things are left the way they are with the energy economy.
edit: gian point for example is the latest I could remember

[JackHargreav]

1 hour ago, Numerikuu said:

^This. It's literally stat stick 2.0. Why they tied warframe energy to your railjack seems silly imo.

Good question. Even tho I'm not hating the change I didn't hate how it worked previously either.

The energy I had was more than enough and now it's easier to get energy due to Lavos not using any while zenurik restores energy supper fast and Dispensary also gives a decent amount. 

Imo it's fine either way.

[mikakor]

something even better for the babies here whining about energy : you can craft it in your forge. just like with flux system. here you go, no more problem. OR, OR, hear me out. 

Dispensery / Pizza / Zenurik. 

you got three VERY easy ways to get your energy, two being without any permanant ressource cost, and is way better than flux ever was. 

[Seph-Aldaire]

39 minutes ago, mikakor said:

something even better for the babies here whining about energy : you can craft it in your forge. just like with flux system. here you go, no more problem. OR, OR, hear me out. 

Dispensery / Pizza / Zenurik. 

you got three VERY easy ways to get your energy, two being without any permanant ressource cost, and is way better than flux ever was. 

Crafting it was nice... When it was a community resource and you could have a dedicated engineer. The current system just feels jarring as if no real thought was put into the change and they just panic nerfed ship abilities. Telling people they can just energy pizza/ dispensary / zenurik is just putting a bandaid over an already trash energy economy.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

7 hours ago, Aldain said:

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA.

If someone can inject CinemaSins laugh into this part, much appreciation.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 2 heures, Tsukinoki a dit :

So you're telling me that:
A) You enjoyed the stat-stick melee weapons for exalted melee use
B) You enjoyed archwing back when it was "Play valkyr...or just don't have a chance at surviving since its health/armor are based on the frame you have equipped!"

Because this is literally no different.

This is just "Choose a frame to stat-stick your railjack!" and I was hoping that DE was done with stat-sticking considering how against it they are in other modes.

 

And heres a thing: Maybe, just maybe we should be building the railjack a specific way instead of the frame.
After all right now its "Have a good ground based frame that might not have room for energy and have a sucky railjack; or have a super high energy frame that might not be optimized for ground play"
Why not have it just be "Build your railjack properly so that you can do the railjack portions; and at the same time build your frame how you like it so that you can enjoy the ground missions?"

Your A/B comparison is ridiculous. Some frames/builds are better at defense, some are better at spy, some are better at exterminate, and now some are better at RJ, ain't no problem here.

And for having played a bunch of corpus RJ with low energy frames, it's BARELY any trouble. You can still use a bunch of avionics, borderline spam them if you keep energizing dash up.

Stat sticks force you to have a gimped melee for your frame to be at all functionnal, new flux system makes you pick any of the many fully functionnal ground frames in order to have the ability to spam your avionics with 0 brain... do you really not see how much of a stretch it is to compare those two ?

[mikakor]

19 minutes ago, Aldeseo said:

Crafting it was nice... When it was a community resource and you could have a dedicated engineer. The current system just feels jarring as if no real thought was put into the change and they just panic nerfed ship abilities. Telling people they can just energy pizza/ dispensary / zenurik is just putting a bandaid over an already trash energy economy.

the energy system tho is a thousand time better than the flux system. you have many more ways of generating it and you don't have to ALWAYS go back to the forge again, which is a plus

[(XBOX)Rez090]

The only thing I see going on in this thread is that railjack battle abilities are your crutches.

[PublikDomain]

28 minutes ago, mikakor said:

the energy system tho is a thousand time better than the flux system. you have many more ways of generating it and you don't have to ALWAYS go back to the forge again, which is a plus

So why not improve that part about Flux Energy and not tie it to Warframe energy? Make the Reactor generate a reasonable amount of Flux energy over time and balance ability energy cost to that rate, problem solved. Don't need a Warframe stat-stick, don't need to worry about players cheesing the system for infinite energy/ability use, don't need the stupid energy cost scaling bandaid that tries and fails to counter it while only forcing the energy meta even harder.

[Seph-Aldaire]

40 minutes ago, mikakor said:

the energy system tho is a thousand time better than the flux system. you have many more ways of generating it and you don't have to ALWAYS go back to the forge again, which is a plus

I agree that is a plus but that's an issue made by DE themselves, as they removed the ability to play engineer.

[chaotea]

2 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

Do I have to spell it

It might help to use full sentances, yes.

2 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

every item that gets overused for an activity(becomes the one and only meta) at some time in the future(days, months or even years) will get nerfed, or "adjusted", or "balanced".

Yes thats true. And not just for warframe. This happens with virtually every game.

2 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

And because the eyes are on railjack at the moment if the things are left in it's current state sooner or later you will see only lavoses in the mode(actually yesterday I loaded into 5 random missions and all of them had from 1 to 3 lavoses in).

See this was my point, you were just saying about 'nerfs', but didnt specify it was about lavos. Also, its weird because i havnt seen a single Lavos in RJ yet, but ive only been doing Veil so maybe its not there as much. As energy management is so easy, i thought you ment that using a Lavos in RJ is in of itself a nerf.

2 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

I am sure someone will come with the stupid excuse "you don't work for de, you don't know how they work" and bla bla, but this is what I think will happen.

Well, those people would be wrong because thats exactly how they work because they are intelegent game developers. If, in a game where one of the main focus's is player choice, there becomes a situation where players feel the need to use a particular thing to do well, then it needs brought down to the level of everything else. Thats just logic really.

2 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

Will it be tomorrow - probably not, but maybe after a month or two it will happen if things are left the way they are with the energy economy.

Lavos having timers has nothing to do with the energy economy though. Also I have to stress, I havnt played Lavos yet, but i dont have a clue what people are talking about with issues with energy in railjack. Maybe im an outlire here, and no one else ever equips energy cap boosting mods or even considers energy restoring methods for games.

 

I cant help but feel that if its that much of a problem for people, they should mod accordingly.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

Lavos having timers has nothing to do with the energy economy though. Also I have to stress, I havnt played Lavos yet, but i dont have a clue what people are talking about with issues with energy in railjack. Maybe im an outlire here, and no one else ever equips energy cap boosting mods or even considers energy restoring methods for games.

 

I cant help but feel that if its that much of a problem for people, they should mod accordingly.

The problem is that you must use flow or primed flow on every frame you wanna play RJ with, even if it is a frame that normaly relies on just efficiency instead or neither. Lavos and Hildryn circumvent having to build for a stat you dont actually need on the frame itself. And with the lack of difficulty in RJ, both Hildryn and Lavos surpass energy frames, because you only need to use 1 rotation of battle avionics to wipe out what needs to get wiped out, then the rotation is either cooled down or your shields are full again for the next wave of enemies. This in addition to battle avionics costing waaaaay more than a WF skill, and they arent impacted by efficiency either. Certain frames cannot cast the 200 cost skills unless they use flow or primed flow since their basepool is lower than the cost of the avionic.

It is all really poorly balanced. It is extremely mindboggling why they went with this system over simply just going with the hildryn or lavos option. Both work fantastically well and either could be a RJ mechanic. With Hildryns' they could have just kept the flux avionic, while with Lavos' it wouldnt be needed.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

5 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Except all that's being asked here is 'maybe equip flow on one of the main slots of your frame" and not "sacrifice this entire weapon slot to an ability". No frame will have just no room for energy at all (unless it's lavos or hildryn but those cases dont matter for the discussion at hand)

Yes you can work around it, but why should you in the first place? Stat sticking is conceptually and mechanically stupid, and it makes even less sense in the context of railjack. It just forces unnecessary metas and makes the whole system much more fragile in terms of balance and future additions, since it has a bajillion more variables. There is no reasonable explanation from moving away from flux and no real benefit, except "haha seeker volley go brr lolz" and "let's make engineer even more useless". 

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

Nothing to see here, double post. Have a cookie. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)ShonFr0st:

Yes you can work around it, but why should you in the first place? Stat sticking is conceptually and mechanically stupid, and it makes even less sense in the context of railjack. It just forces unnecessary metas and makes the whole system much more fragile in terms of balance and future additions, since it has a bajillion more variables. There is no reasonable explanation from moving away from flux and no real benefit, except "haha seeker volley go brr lolz" and "let's make engineer even more useless". 

Because warframe is a very build focused game. The game is made in a way that a majority of things are solved in the modding screen. You can still play whatever frame you want to play, you just gotta adjust a little bit.