Can We Chill On The Instant Kill?

[Lutesque]

8 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

"Enemies", I presume. "n = en", "m = em". (Like initials: N. M. es)

I feel like everything on the Internet is starting to get away from me 😞

Anyway...

1 hour ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

how do you ask - by knowing what my nmes are, how to deal with them, what nmes can kill with 1 shot, how to stop the Acolytes dead in their tracks and to keep moving all the time.. 

You make it sound like this is something you just know.... Let like how Birds just know to fly South for the winter... 🤔.

In which case... Good For You...

I and many other Human Beans I know of aren't born with a predetermined ability to know specific things... That information needs to be Taught to us.... 

I don't just know Zombies are vulnerable to Headshots... I had to be Taught this information... 

 

[-AncientWarrior-]

20 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Assuming I'm translating right:

You're saying the OP taxied to Steel Path because they have difficulty learning an entirely new caliber of enemy encountered only in Steel Path due to a lack of information provided in-game surrounding a few specific Acolyte abilities.

I don't think that follows the way you think it does.

No what I was meaning is we need to learn this game as we play through it.. if players taxi or ride on others coat tails they dont learn about the nmes or environment and then when they do get into a situation where they find themselves lost etc.. If any player makes it to the SP (which isnt hard is it) they should have a grip on what the hell is going to happen..  And yes nme is enemy..its about the only abbreviation this old fart knows.

[-AncientWarrior-]

20 hours ago, Lutesque said:

You make it sound like this is something you just know.... Let like how Birds just know to fly South for the winter... 🤔.

In which case... Good For You...

I and many other Human Beans I know of aren't born with a predetermined ability to know specific things... That information needs to be Taught to us....

Yep its a secret.. doh your understanding of the obvious is pretty bad and really predetermined ability wtf .. lmao.. its about learning something before just going headfirst into a situation they arent prepared for.. its nothing to do with information being taught to us.. its about us learning, searching and finding answers for ourselves.... not being spoon fed like a gaming baby.

[Lutesque]

24 minutes ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

Yep its a secret.. doh your understanding of the obvious is pretty bad and really predetermined ability wtf .. lmao.. its about learning something before just going headfirst into a situation they arent prepared for.. its nothing to do with information being taught to us.. its about us learning, searching and finding answers for ourselves.... not being spoon fed like a gaming baby.

Ah I see.... You're one of those Anti-Tutorial type of people... Why didn't you just say so 😁 !!!

[Tyreaus]

15 minutes ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

No what I was meaning is we need to learn this game as we play through it.. if players taxi or ride on others coat tails they dont learn about the nmes or environment and then when they do get into a situation where they find themselves lost etc.. If any player makes it to the SP (which isnt hard is it) they should have a grip on what the hell is going to happen..

I reiterate:

It is a new caliber of enemy encountered only in Steel Path. So it's kind of like expecting someone who can ride a bike to be able to drive a car: they're similar, and some people may be able to just hop in and go, but there's enough of a difference between them that anyone who couldn't would be well excused.

In this case, the OP is saying that a major blockade to them learning Acolyte moves is that it's difficult to distinguish what happened. For most other enemies - even most Acolyte abilities - this isn't a major issue, because the game is abound with telegraphs, damage indicators, and glowing warning spots that the player would eventually clue into. (The only other case I can think of, off the top of my head, would be Leech Eximus and the like.) Not being able to gather information kind of puts the brakes on learning what happened.

And that's the key thing. This thread isn't a demand for a solution, contrary to a handful of replies. No game is under any obligation to tell you how to beat something, after all. That is for the player to learn and figure out. The OP asks for deobfuscation to be able to get all the pieces needed to progress. Imagine if this game required the player to decompile the source code to get a special letter sequence from a comment in that code in order to complete the Star Chart and unlock Steel Path. We'd probably at least ask for a good, clear hint that that's what we have to do, no? I feel like we'd be justified in that, too. And I don't think the ability to ask the community for either the hint or the answer would excuse that kind of design choice.

(On that note, the page for Malice (as of this time of writing) makes no mention of Magnetize enabling friendly fire. It says, in effect, that it makes it harder to dodge Malice's shots. This is despite people in this thread (and in the comments of that page) saying that self-damage is enabled by Magnetize and that's why they blew themselves up. I also don't see any mention of that on the Magnetize page itself. That's not intended to sway or anything, just pointing out that, even in external sources, that tidbit of info is pretty buried.)

Last thing I'd like to leave off on is the matter of context. For better or worse, DE has implemented various measures to prevent one-hit-KOs in the game, from a brief period after invisibility abilities end where enemies can't target the player, to shield gating, to the removal of self-damage - the latter of which has seen requests for revival in a nerfed, non-OHKO form. Even with appropriate information provided to the player to let them learn and adapt (and that isn't to judge whether there is or isn't), there's precedent that this sort of thing is either undesired or unintended by the developer. And that's worthy of their attention, I think.

[Lutesque]

26 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

 

It is a new caliber of enemy encountered only in Steel Path. So it's kind of like expecting someone who can ride a bike to be able to drive a car: they're similar, and some people may be able to just hop in and go, but there's enough of a difference between them that anyone who couldn't would be well excused.

I don't think this distinction matters to him/her....

I know the type.... I think you do aswell... They believe you are to be held responsible for not  wanting to play the game on one screen while periodically glancing at another Screen that has the Wiki or Discord on it...

I mean I get it... They like to research and optimised their Experience.... I do the samething when I play Dead Or Alive or Street Fighter.... But I wouldn't blame someone else for not knowing you can Kara Cancel Balrog's Dash Straight into his V-Skill... The game doesn't tell you this so naturally players would't know.... Ofcourse... It's easy to pick on Street Fighter... Years of being the Benchmark Fighter has made them lazy and Complacent 😁...

The same applies to all those people who who keep saying "Recruit Chat Exists".... 

31 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

For most other enemies - even most Acolyte abilities - this isn't a major issue, because the game is abound with telegraphs, damage indicators, and glowing warning spots that the player would eventually clue into.

One could make the Argument that it's too abound with these Indicators.... They can overlap and conflict with each other so much that they wind up doing the exact opposite if what they were designed to do.... 😱 !!!

35 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

 

(On that note, the page for Malice (as of this time of writing) makes no mention of Magnetize enabling friendly fire. It says, in effect, that it makes it harder to dodge Malice's shots. This is despite people in this thread (and in the comments of that page) saying that self-damage is enabled by Magnetize and that's why they blew themselves up. I also don't see any mention of that on the Magnetize page itself. That's not intended to sway or anything, just pointing out that, even in external sources, that tidbit of info is pretty buried.)

I'd also like to add that when a new Update Drops you don't even have the option of turning to the Wiki for help because nobody has made entries for the new content yet....

Normally I'm to busy grinding and trying to catch up to play any update the same day it drops.... However as it turns out I managed to be mostly all caught up a week before The Deadlock Protocol Dropped.... This was my first time being an Early Adopter....

 

Never Again !!! 😭

 

[iPathos]

Paying attention to audio cues is something you should definitely be doing in the Steel Path, especially when encountering Acolytes. Magnetize has a very distinctive activation sound and is easy to pick out even in the cacophony of enemy shots.

[WillD4Pill]

On 2021-07-21 at 7:10 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

This isn't a single player game from 2002 that needs 18 prompts and pop ups on the screen. You have an entire community that already knows everything, the internet, in game chats etc.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

In this case OP is making the point that DE hasn't made any effort to lead at all. If you're going to look at a game's design, you have to look at the game in a vacuum, i.e. with the assumption that there is no pre established community. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

17 minutes ago, ZestyChieftain said:

In this case OP is making the point that DE hasn't made any effort to lead at all. If you're going to look at a game's design, you have to look at the game in a vacuum, i.e. with the assumption that there is no pre established community. 

Someone made a post on reddit asking what it meant when his mods polarity was red. So I double checked the codex, and sure enough there's way more information in there than I remember. 

There's a whole diagram with arrows pointing to every part of a mod with a description of what each part is.

So the information that's actually in the game, people are ignoring, like I said before. You don't need a community to read, right? You said we're now looking at the game in a vacuum right? 

Hasn't made any effort? Did you know there was an update just to make a second way for players to access the recent updates screen? So there's now the first one on the loading screen, and there's an option in the menu on the lower right (just like other UI information prompts that people ignore) in the hopes that people see that as well.

There have been numerous UI and description cleanups. You have to actually read the update notes.

[WillD4Pill]

On 2021-09-08 at 3:38 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Someone made a post on reddit asking what it meant when his mods polarity was red. So I double checked the codex, and sure enough there's way more information in there than I remember. 

There's a whole diagram with arrows pointing to every part of a mod with a description of what each part is.

So the information that's actually in the game, people are ignoring, like I said before. You don't need a community to read, right? You said we're now looking at the game in a vacuum right? 

Hasn't made any effort? Did you know there was an update just to make a second way for players to access the recent updates screen? So there's now the first one on the loading screen, and there's an option in the menu on the lower right (just like other UI information prompts that people ignore) in the hopes that people see that as well.

There have been numerous UI and description cleanups. You have to actually read the update notes.

Maybe my wording was poor but I was just referencing your analogy and wasn't trying to personally attack you or imply DE doesn't put out tutorials. 

Your point that people are ignoring info is disingenuous. OP's original complaint was with Acolytes, and there is absolutely no place in the game that teaches you what their moves do. Codex will only give you so much info there. Simple things like modding and such are in the codex sure, but when modding you have all the time you need to slowly figure it out; I'd even argue that the base functions of modding can be easily figured out even without it. But DE's conveyance when it comes to more complicated gameplay, particularly bosses, is undoubtedly abysmal at points. If it wasn't there wouldn't be posts like this every week. I swear this is the only game where this happens. Even MHW and PoE communities are not this bad.

Again when you're looking at a game's design you have to look at it in a vacuum, where a player has no resource but the game itself. I don't agree with everything OP said, but there are things about the Acolytes that can't be figured out in the moment. Can you honestly tell me that you perfectly understood an Acolytes' moves on first glance? Or that you could clearly see a telegraph or wind up animation to indicate that you should prepare to dodge? Audio cues are poor tools for telegraphing because of how much other noise there is during gameplay. There would be no way for someone to figure out what the Magnetize bubble does on first encounter, let alone figure out that rolling solves it. This, compounded with the constant motion that game wants you to be doing, can make it very hard to understand what's happening.  Saying "just check the wiki" or "ask someone" completely ignores the problem with the game itself, and I see this constantly when complaints like this arise. Answers like this don't prove that the game is fine as it is, nor does it prove that the fault lies with the player. It just proves that people have accepted that things are the way they are and are giving DE a pass.

Your example of DE giving people another way to read updates and making UI description cleanups is a strawman. Conveyance through gameplay is the problem that this game has; an issue with game design. Clarity with updates and UI has nothing to with that. I doubt the design team even worries about how people read updates. Something like that is more a community management issue. UI and description cleanups is also less a design team issue and more to do with an art team. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 hours ago, ZestyChieftain said:

Maybe my wording was poor but I was just referencing your analogy and wasn't trying to personally attack you or imply DE doesn't put out tutorials. 

Your point that people are ignoring info is disingenuous. OP's original complaint was with Acolytes, and there is absolutely no place in the game that teaches you what their moves do. Codex will only give you so much info there. Simple things like modding and such are in the codex sure, but when modding you have all the time you need to slowly figure it out; I'd even argue that the base functions of modding can be easily figured out even without it. But DE's conveyance when it comes to more complicated gameplay, particularly bosses, is undoubtedly abysmal at points. If it wasn't there wouldn't be posts like this every week. I swear this is the only game where this happens. Even MHW and PoE communities are not this bad.

Again when you're looking at a game's design you have to look at it in a vacuum, where a player has no resource but the game itself. I don't agree with everything OP said, but there are things about the Acolytes that can't be figured out in the moment. Can you honestly tell me that you perfectly understood an Acolytes' moves on first glance? Or that you could clearly see a telegraph or wind up animation to indicate that you should prepare to dodge? Audio cues are poor tools for telegraphing because of how much other noise there is during gameplay. There would be no way for someone to figure out what the Magnetize bubble does on first encounter, let alone figure out that rolling solves it. This, compounded with the constant motion that game wants you to be doing, can make it very hard to understand what's happening.  Saying "just check the wiki" or "ask someone" completely ignores the problem with the game itself, and I see this constantly when complaints like this arise. Answers like this don't prove that the game is fine as it is, nor does it prove that the fault lies with the player. It just proves that people have accepted that things are the way they are and are giving DE a pass.

Your example of DE giving people another way to read updates and making UI description cleanups is a strawman. Conveyance through gameplay is the problem that this game has; an issue with game design. Clarity with updates and UI has nothing to with that. I doubt the design team even worries about how people read updates. Something like that is more a community management issue. UI and description cleanups is also less a design team issue and more to do with an art team. 

Some games move faster now, don't know what to tell you. Any game no matter what it is, is about reflexes and muscle memory. Everyone dies when they're new/unprepared/inexperienced. Then you see what the acolytes do after a few fights.

And you're in reality, not a vacuum. In reality people have help and guides. 

[WillD4Pill]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Some games move faster now, don't know what to tell you. Any game no matter what it is, is about reflexes and muscle memory. Everyone dies when they're new/unprepared/inexperienced. Then you see what the acolytes do after a few fights.

And you're in reality, not a vacuum. In reality people have help and guides. 

I feel like you're just accepting something bad as fact because game designers refuse to change. I've played action shooters before and have never felt that something was grossly unfair or ineffectively conveyed until Warframe. There is a line that can be crossed into unfair territory. If the pace of the game is fast, then just make the dangers clearer and more noticeable. A lot of classically "hard" games in any genre follow this very basic design mantra and has been repeated time and time again from arcade days to now. What's funny is that DE is capable of doing this. The new Jackal is a good example of this. Every move and weakness of the Jackal is immediately identifiable so if I get hit, then it's on me. 

It's true that many people die when first experiencing a boss in any game, but it's also true that it's possible not too. As long as a designer gives the player some of sort of telegraph, and make it possible to dodge or solve the problem then its fine. Difficulty in action games like Warframe comes from identifying a danger and then reacting to it. The problem that Warframe has is that many bosses (and some enemies) don't let you identify the dangers, making reacting to them impossible. Again fighting bosses like this while playing another game mode entirely or dealing with mobs really makes this hard. So you don't ever really see what acolytes do as you're implying players can do. Even after thousands of hours of gameplay I can't recall a unique animation or telegraph that any Acolyte has. This leads to most players just brute forcing the issue by just staying away and shooting or just CO --> Melee combos. 

Again when you're examining a games design, or anything's design, you look at it in a vacuum. Yes we have player funded guides and info, but that doesn't take away from the fact that there are design flaws in this game. My point is that whenever people bring this up, people just point to the wiki and give DE a pass.

[Gemoroda]

On 2021-07-21 at 2:10 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

This isn't a single player game from 2002 that needs 18 prompts and pop ups on the screen. You have an entire community that already knows everything, the internet, in game chats etc.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

I know this is an old post buy man you are not helping here at all. I'm back into warframe as well after some times, playing steel path with certain frames (because i like meleeing but due to DE ridiculous ranged weapons damage and aoes and stuff being so op in this game and people flying everywhere with bullet jump makes melee/team play USELESS) in solo mode. I put all armor and shields and health on me as much as possible in various ways and went to fight an acolyte. I dont remember its name but even so it is redundant as this happened with multiple of them to like either hit me once (no bubble around me or anything and i melee, not shoot) and either oneshot trough all defenses, or hit once and shield goes bye-bye and then the health goes away gradually in about max 3 seconds. Not even speaking of being lifted and then literally not having how to counter this. So the q is not how to deal with them... (ffs take an invisible frame and hit him until the keys on the keyboard pops out) its about what do you need in order to not get onshoted by them to actually be able to melee them? And yes.of your answer is you are not playing the game right you literally took away my freedom of how to play and INDEED that is a major game issue.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Gemoroda said:

I know this is an old post buy man you are not helping here at all. I'm back into warframe as well after some times, playing steel path with certain frames (because i like meleeing but due to DE ridiculous ranged weapons damage and aoes and stuff being so op in this game and people flying everywhere with bullet jump makes melee/team play USELESS) in solo mode. I put all armor and shields and health on me as much as possible in various ways and went to fight an acolyte. I dont remember its name but even so it is redundant as this happened with multiple of them to like either hit me once (no bubble around me or anything and i melee, not shoot) and either oneshot trough all defenses, or hit once and shield goes bye-bye and then the health goes away gradually in about max 3 seconds. Not even speaking of being lifted and then literally not having how to counter this. So the q is not how to deal with them... (ffs take an invisible frame and hit him until the keys on the keyboard pops out) its about what do you need in order to not get onshoted by them to actually be able to melee them? And yes.of your answer is you are not playing the game right you literally took away my freedom of how to play and INDEED that is a major game issue.

Why'd you let the acolyte get close to you? 

It's not fodder enemy, it's a miniboss and is meant to be taken seriously. 

If you want to get close to an acolyte, properly time your rolling guard or Vazarin dash or use Nezha or Rhino or Revenant.

[cute_moth.npc]

I usually do not have very much sympathy for people dying to things but this is actually an exception ^^

D.E. has been learning lately (since New War) how to do better telegraphs, at least somewhat? They kinda overdid if with Zariman I feel like yelling "okay grandpa that's great let's get you to bed" after watching some of the exaggerated slow animations of Void Angels and Thrax, Eximus units really improved and the archons I feel were paced pretty well though! 

Acolytes are from the before times when D.E. was thinking that invisible energy drains on Eximus where your only clue is at the bottom right of your screen and silent, vague swirls at your feet where the player is naturally not actually looking and things with no windup were good telegraphs, which they aren't.

The magnetic effect is definitely a bit too vague considering that it's effectively the deadliest thing that acolyte has and it's sort of like an ultimate?  I am all for giving the enemy scary skills, but there also has to be good game language used to convey to the player that it's time to react or die. I don't think the Acolytes display that very well and could use some Eximus treatment in clearing up the language.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

14 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I usually do not have very much sympathy for people dying to things but this is actually an exception ^^

D.E. has been learning lately (since New War) how to do better telegraphs, at least somewhat? They kinda overdid if with Zariman I feel like yelling "okay grandpa that's great let's get you to bed" after watching some of the exaggerated slow animations of Void Angels and Thrax, Eximus units really improved and the archons I feel were paced pretty well though! 

Acolytes are from the before times when D.E. was thinking that invisible energy drains on Eximus where your only clue is at the bottom right of your screen and silent, vague swirls at your feet where the player is naturally not actually looking and things with no windup were good telegraphs, which they aren't.

The magnetic effect is definitely a bit too vague considering that it's effectively the deadliest thing that acolyte has and it's sort of like an ultimate?  I am all for giving the enemy scary skills, but there also has to be good game language used to convey to the player that it's time to react or die. I don't think the Acolytes display that very well and could use some Eximus treatment in clearing up the language.

The issue is players that aren't ready doing steel path.

The devs and Teshin already said it's a place to test your mettle.

Tests involve failing and coming back stronger after learning.

We've said 100 times we aren't balancing the game around steel path, and definitely not Acolytes.

New players should stop trying to face tank Acolytes and work on their camera control.

They can adjust the camera sensitivity in the options menu, increase their volume and pay attention to the super obvious prompts on their screen when an Acolyte appears. 

The slightest bit of experience will tell them...the acolyte spawns at their location at a specific point.

If they actually move around....they can create distance between them and the acolyte before it spawns, which gives them some breathing room to react.

[Nira]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The issue is players that aren't ready doing steel path.

The devs and Teshin already said it's a place to test your mettle.

Tests involve failing and coming back stronger after learning.

We've said 100 times we aren't balancing the game around steel path, and definitely not Acolytes.

New players should stop trying to face tank Acolytes and work on their camera control.

They can adjust the camera sensitivity in the options menu, increase their volume and pay attention to the super obvious prompts on their screen when an Acolyte appears. 

The slightest bit of experience will tell them...the acolyte spawns at their location at a specific point.

If they actually move around....they can create distance between them and the acolyte before it spawns, which gives them some breathing room to react.

I'm 100% with you on this one.

I for one enjoy how the acolytes can and do annihilate players, if they're not paying or attention or don't know what they're doing.

That being said Malice and Violence are the only ones I really watch for these days. Oh and Misery (the Nekros one), there's a recent undocumented change where he can now summon up to two additonal shadow acolytes that are immune to status effects. Argaubly the hardest one right now in fact, gives a good fight if you get both.

[Tyreaus]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The issue is players that aren't ready doing steel path.

The devs and Teshin already said it's a place to test your mettle.

Tests involve failing and coming back stronger after learning.

We've said 100 times we aren't balancing the game around steel path, and definitely not Acolytes.

New players should stop trying to face tank Acolytes and work on their camera control.

They can adjust the camera sensitivity in the options menu, increase their volume and pay attention to the super obvious prompts on their screen when an Acolyte appears. 

The slightest bit of experience will tell them...the acolyte spawns at their location at a specific point.

If they actually move around....they can create distance between them and the acolyte before it spawns, which gives them some breathing room to react.

And that's a good indicator for when they're spawning. And there's a number of Acolyte abilities that have decent telegraphs in their casting animations. I don't remember which Acolyte it is but one spawns shades ala Nekros, and the whole animation tells you what's going on. Same for the one that has Zephyr's Turbulance. For the most part, it's tricky, but fair. But I think the Magnetize one slips through the cracks: it really stands out as having big impact with minimal tell.

Just because we aren't balancing for Steel Path doesn't mean it's the wild west, either. If there's a design issue, we ought to still look at it. It's just unpolished otherwise. Even Dark Souls is still clean.

14 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

They kinda overdid if with Zariman I feel like yelling "okay grandpa that's great let's get you to bed" after watching some of the exaggerated slow animations of Void Angels and Thrax, Eximus units really improved and the archons I feel were paced pretty well though! 

I have a major nitpick with the Thrax units: their telegraphing is deceptive. It's a fixed distance dash, twice, and stuck to a horizontal plane. Then the third dash is whatever distance and angle is required to get to your location. It gives the impression you can back out of their range, or leap into the sky to avoid them, then surprise they're hitting you anyway because their third dash can take them out to Pluto. It would literally be improved to just have them hover up and dash at the player immediately after a short delay.

The lasers have a similar problem, though it's more a folley of common tropes. The idea is that, when a laser or other kind of attack starts moving, that's when the enemy has locked onto your position. It's decided, "I'm launching my attack here". That means if you have a swinging motion in the attack, you're intended to side-step or get out of the way. If they're charging up, the attack hasn't started moving, so they're still tracking. That means either getting behind cover or getting ready to time the sickest dodge of your life. Doesn't need to be energy: I believe a few Elden Ring enemies will hover in the air to "charge" an attack, and Nihil goes through motions to telegraph his attacks without charging either.

The Thrax lasers, of course, don't follow this. They start moving, then home in on the player while moving. The idea seems to be to get behind cover, contrary to what the trope would suggest. It's easy enough to adjust but goes against the grain really hard. Not just externally but internally: Eximus enemies have those sorts of motion telegraphs in ability animations all over the place, from _{assuming I get the names right} Leech Eximus having the charge area for the energy sap to Blitz Eximus with the shockwaves that physically travel to the location you were at. Everything else follows the trope except, for whatever reason, those Thrax lasers.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

And that's a good indicator for when they're spawning. And there's a number of Acolyte abilities that have decent telegraphs in their casting animations. I don't remember which Acolyte it is but one spawns shades ala Nekros, and the whole animation tells you what's going on. Same for the one that has Zephyr's Turbulance. For the most part, it's tricky, but fair. But I think the Magnetize one slips through the cracks: it really stands out as having big impact with minimal tell.

Just because we aren't balancing for Steel Path doesn't mean it's the wild west, either. If there's a design issue, we ought to still look at it. It's just unpolished otherwise. Even Dark Souls is still clean.

I have a major nitpick with the Thrax units: their telegraphing is deceptive. It's a fixed distance dash, twice, and stuck to a horizontal plane. Then the third dash is whatever distance and angle is required to get to your location. It gives the impression you can back out of their range, or leap into the sky to avoid them, then surprise they're hitting you anyway because their third dash can take them out to Pluto. It would literally be improved to just have them hover up and dash at the player immediately after a short delay.

The lasers have a similar problem, though it's more a folley of common tropes. The idea is that, when a laser or other kind of attack starts moving, that's when the enemy has locked onto your position. It's decided, "I'm launching my attack here". That means if you have a swinging motion in the attack, you're intended to side-step or get out of the way. If they're charging up, the attack hasn't started moving, so they're still tracking. That means either getting behind cover or getting ready to time the sickest dodge of your life. Doesn't need to be energy: I believe a few Elden Ring enemies will hover in the air to "charge" an attack, and Nihil goes through motions to telegraph his attacks without charging either.

The Thrax lasers, of course, don't follow this. They start moving, then home in on the player while moving. The idea seems to be to get behind cover, contrary to what the trope would suggest. It's easy enough to adjust but goes against the grain really hard. Not just externally but internally: Eximus enemies have those sorts of motion telegraphs in ability animations all over the place, from _{assuming I get the names right} Leech Eximus having the charge area for the energy sap to Blitz Eximus with the shockwaves that physically travel to the location you were at. Everything else follows the trope except, for whatever reason, those Thrax lasers.

The magnetize has a tell. 

He puts his arm up towards you, as if to point at you. You can even see him lower his arm to hold his opticor and ready a shot.

You also have a solid second or two before he uses his Opticor. 

I have a video on my PS4 of me rolling out of the bubble and the Opticor beam projectile heading towards the bubble. 

Some players shoot themselves inside the bubble instead of rolling out as well.

[cute_moth.npc]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The issue is players that aren't ready doing steel path.

The devs and Teshin already said it's a place to test your mettle.

Tests involve failing and coming back stronger after learning.

We've said 100 times we aren't balancing the game around steel path, and definitely not Acolytes.

New players should stop trying to face tank Acolytes and work on their camera control.

They can adjust the camera sensitivity in the options menu, increase their volume and pay attention to the super obvious prompts on their screen when an Acolyte appears. 

The slightest bit of experience will tell them...the acolyte spawns at their location at a specific point.

If they actually move around....they can create distance between them and the acolyte before it spawns, which gives them some breathing room to react.

I agree that players should learn not to face tank as much, there are so many posts about stuff like Disruptors sucking energy, not being able to face tank Archons, etc.. Learning to mitigate by adapting will greatly decrease how many issues a player has! 

There's a difference to me though between learning about an attack and adapting to it and knowing it's there but having to stare at your feet carefully for a telegraph that's too muddled to work well with the pacing of the game or isn't clear. I do feel personally like the Acolytes have some pretty bad / inadequate telegraphs for some attacks, they could be touched up. 

Sadly I do not agree that they do not balance around steel path? They literally came out with a massive, global DPS increase for guns because of Steel Path and that bled very easily into the rest of the game. They can say it 101 times if they want to, but they already threw out weapon balance in favor of Steel Path and that cat is sort of out of the bag -_-

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I agree that players should learn not to face tank as much, there are so many posts about stuff like Disruptors sucking energy, not being able to face tank Archons, etc.. Learning to mitigate by adapting will greatly decrease how many issues a player has! 

There's a difference to me though between learning about an attack and adapting to it and knowing it's there but having to stare at your feet carefully for a telegraph that's too muddled to work well with the pacing of the game or isn't clear. I do feel personally like the Acolytes have some pretty bad / inadequate telegraphs for some attacks, they could be touched up. 

Sadly I do not agree that they do not balance around steel path? They literally came out with a massive, global DPS increase for guns because of Steel Path and that bled very easily into the rest of the game. They can say it 101 times if they want to, but they already threw out weapon balance in favor of Steel Path and that cat is sort of out of the bag -_-

You can thank the large horde of inexperienced players with ulterior motives for the gun arcanes.

But yea I get it, every game is eventually dumbed down to appease the masses. The result of becoming successful in the gaming world I guess.

Exclusivity and elitism are now "toxic", so we have to lower the bar so low effort players don't feel bad.

Maybe they can just automatically apply 100% slow to the acolytes so no one gets hurt. 

[cute_moth.npc]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Maybe they can just automatically apply 100% slow to the acolytes so no one gets hurt. 

Sometimes that seems like what some players honestly want lol. It seems like a travesty that an enemy can actually do something. That's why I am not usually that sympathetic to players dying although I think the game also needs to convey fairly that a move or die moment is coming up. They're improving on that ^^

They should have known that if they came out with weapon mods and arcanes like that to close the gap for weaker weapons but then let them go on the stronger weapons with no penalty, players would JUST PUT THEM ON THE META STUFF. 

[Gemoroda]

On 2022-08-25 at 11:42 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Why'd you let the acolyte get close to you? 

It's not fodder enemy, it's a miniboss and is meant to be taken seriously. 

If you want to get close to an acolyte, properly time your rolling guard or Vazarin dash or use Nezha or Rhino or Revenant.

I am actually reading all your comments and i am not sure if you are intentionally giving bad advice and being a troll  or just not paying attention when reading.

 

I told you i dislike guns. I like melee. So basically you are telling me that warframe is not a game in which you can make a build and enjoy playing, but you have to play it as de intended it with a specific build in mind?

 

I want to renounce everything and place full armor and health mods on my frame to 1v1 them. I did that with over 500 armor adaptation (which is useless due to the following acolyte action) and over 1500 health and in one hit he destroyed my shield and in a second hit he melted all my hp. So... what is the point of armor mods? Because i presume even if i get 999 armor i will still get one shoted so basically melee is actually useless i warframe and should be removed entirely right? 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Gemoroda said:

I am actually reading all your comments and i am not sure if you are intentionally giving bad advice and being a troll  or just not paying attention when reading.

 

I told you i dislike guns. I like melee. So basically you are telling me that warframe is not a game in which you can make a build and enjoy playing, but you have to play it as de intended it with a specific build in mind?

 

I want to renounce everything and place full armor and health mods on my frame to 1v1 them. I did that with over 500 armor adaptation (which is useless due to the following acolyte action) and over 1500 health and in one hit he destroyed my shield and in a second hit he melted all my hp. So... what is the point of armor mods? Because i presume even if i get 999 armor i will still get one shoted so basically melee is actually useless i warframe and should be removed entirely right? 

I just want to make sure I'm reading your response correctly:

You think you should be able to just put armor/health/DR mods on and and face tank an acolyte....

Is that a fair assessment of what you typed? 

And what is the point of armor? It works on literally all of the rest of the regular enemies. 

Do you know what acolytes are? They are the right hand men of one of the strongest villains and antagonists of the story....

You're playing steel path....it's not meant to be easy or for people with inexperienced builds.

I melee acolytes all the time....without "renouncing everything and placing full armor and health mods on my frame to 1v1".