change the grineer and re-adjust the damages / elements

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You can still kill them with no elements on as well. How easy would you like it?

Phantasma: Outlier as it has extreme status chance (133.2% at base) and is a beam and as such gets to double dip on multishot in regards to DoT status procs. Hardly representative of most weapons.

Proboscis Cernos: AoE with a self grouping mechanic which makes electric proc’s value soar. Innate viral frees up modding slots. Not representative of most weapons.

 

5 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Sure, and we can keep on adding more weapons to this "outlier" category of yours. Gunblades that kill with pure raw damage without the need for slash. Or heck, why not the tenet agendus? The weapon everyone is ignoring as MR fodder, and yet can also kill with just pure raw damage and a little viral as well (even when you don't use final harbinger and completely avoid slash procs). But hey, guess it's easier to just keep repeating what you heard instead of testing stuff out yourself. 

Where we not talking about guns? And please, I do test stuff. That’s practically the only reason I play nowadays. At least try to come up with better ad hominems.

[--END--Rikutatis]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The issue isn't how easy or difficult it is to kill Grineer now. The issue is that this situation prevents a healthy and diverse meta from occurring, and continues to cause issues into the future. After all, even if at the moment Grineer are 'too squishy' that you can use other options, they are still proportionally more durable than everything else, which means that the meta remains ultimately the best option. At best, just going by how hard it currently is to kill Grineer and saying it's ok or that Grineer are too squishy is kicking the can down the road. If this trend exists, then sooner or later, Grineer will

I mean, I don't disagree with you on that. But I don't think just further nerfing armor scaling without doing anything else will really do much to help, other than just making enemies even more laughably weak. At some point we won't even need mods anymore. I'd rather see a more comprehensive rework of damage and enemies. But the last time DE attempted to do this, they just nerfed the heck out of enemy ehp, buffed elements by a lot, turned viral into a monster and gave everyone immortality with shield gating builds. 

[Loza03]

14 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I mean, I don't disagree with you on that. But I don't think just further nerfing armor scaling without doing anything else will really do much to help, other than just making enemies even more laughably weak. At some point we won't even need mods anymore. I'd rather see a more comprehensive rework of damage and enemies. But the last time DE attempted to do this, they just nerfed the heck out of enemy ehp, buffed elements by a lot, turned viral into a monster and gave everyone immortality with shield gating builds. 

Likewise. I think that last time the conversation was too dominated by 'Armour too hard' rather than 'Armour is bad in its current form on a fundamental level'.

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Appart from Octavia I don't see what's more efficient that slash ignoring armor buffed by viral.
And yes you can bring a Banshee that boost damage to new high.

there's no shortage of Weapons and Abilities to mix together.
when i play snooze path, the only way i can really tell that it's any different than a normal Solar Map Mission is that the Enemies are doing more Damage. and maybe certain Eximus don't faster than i can blink.

we have such high Stats in this game, it lets people be pretty creative should they choose to.
just like how, on another angle, people complaining about "meta" Equipment for Eidolon Hunting, is just laughable. there's so many meme Loadouts that are still competitive with what those people would say is "the meta".

 

 

6 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

A frame that can handle hunter adrenaline/rage in their build will basically trivialize the infested's energy drain.

at lower Levels that can certainly help. but the subject of this Thread is Enemies around the area where it's not that hard to take 4 digits of Damage almost instantly. Shield Gating will protect us from that generally, but that doesn't let you use that Energy effect.
especially after DR being nerfed.

4 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Try Nidus. Nidus can meatshield to enemy levels in the thousands, probably level cap, by just keeping your stacks going and not running out. And his parasitic link also gives him the knockdown immunity you need from infested, so he's basically perfect for the job. I seem to remember Inaros meatshielding until around 400ish as well, but maybe that was with an ancient healer specter, can't remember. But yea, these meatshields like Inaros and Grendel can go longer with the ancient healer, but that's a more camping playstyle. But since you talked about 20min+ and level 250ish in your original post, that's why I mentioned hunter adrenaline. At that level range you can definitely meatshield. 

can work Damagewise, but thesedays i wouldn't go to high Level Missions without Shields, that's a deathwish.

[--END--Rikutatis]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Where we not talking about guns? And please, I do test stuff. That’s practically the only reason I play nowadays. At least try to come up with better ad hominems.

No, we were not talking about guns, I specifically used the word 'weapons' on my post. And my ad hominem only came after your snide remark. I was polite with everyone else in this thread, including the OP. But whatever. Also you speak about the proboscis gathering enemies for electricity as if there weren't any abilities, arcanes or other means of achieving that  in the game to get the same result with other weapons. 

I mean, this is the same thing when DE last nerfed corrosive because it was the element people ran in every build against every faction and it was considered that only thing that mattered, even though there were plenty of other things you could make work against the grineer as well, even back when they still had a ton more armor. Now they have a lot less armor and we have a lot more power creep and stronger elements overall.

 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

at lower Levels that can certainly help. but the subject of this Thread is Enemies around the area where it's not that hard to take 4 digits of Damage almost instantly. Shield Gating will protect us from that generally, but that doesn't let you use that Energy effect.
especially after DR being nerfed.

can work Damagewise, but thesedays i wouldn't go to high Level Missions without Shields, that's a deathwish.

For sure, but I suggested that for the level range of around 250ish that the OP mentioned initially. Although as I said, with Nidus you could make that work indefinitely, by just making sure you're generating more stacks than losing with undying. Outside of Nidus, yea, you'd need shield gating/vazarin to go that long. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

30 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Also you speak about the proboscis gathering enemies for electricity as if there weren't any abilities, arcanes or other means of achieving that  in the game to get the same result with other weapons. 

It's still an outlier due to it's grouping ability in addition to the other factors mentioned. I can't get the same result with single target weapons correct, since Proboscis Cernos' advantage with electricity (and what makes it an outlier with it) is the combination of the factors, not just a single one.

Nice to see no mention of Phantasma, so I'll take it that you agree that it is an outlier.

Edit: Also funny how you use Tenet Agendus as one of your examples. You know, the melee weapon with the *highest non-heavy attack base damage in the game after a 60% bonus, and a very good stance to boot.

*excluding gunblade shots (which were another of your examples)

[--END--Rikutatis]

58 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

snip

ok, so phantasma doesn't count because it's a high status beam weapon. Proboscis cernos doesn't count because it groups up enemies and have viral. Gunblades and tenet agendus also don't count because they're among the highest base damage of all melees -- all of that even though I specifically said in my post, the strongest weapons don't need slash. But ok, fine. If I tell you the torid will 2-3 shot grineers at Selkie SP (and one shot the butcher grunts) with a PURE toxin build and nothing but a panzer companion to spread viral, what's the excuse then? Torid doesn't count cause it's AoE? Or am I not allowed to use viral, even though the original discussion was about armor/slash? I mean at that base level if you buff yourself up enough, you could use a completely unmodded melee weapon with enough combo counter. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

6 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

ok, so phantasma doesn't count because it's a high status beam weapon.

It is an outlier yes. Beams get to cheat with multishot if you didn't know, and beam shotguns don't really follow the rules with regards to their innate multishot. So Phantasma is a double cheater, just like Phage, Convectrix, and the Quanta (Vandal).

8 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Proboscis cernos doesn't count because it groups up enemies and have viral.

Yes, it is an outlier because of those factors with regards to electricity (You missed the AoE part too)

11 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

all of that even though I specifically said in my post, the strongest weapons don't need slash.

And my point was the you picked the outliers for your electric examples.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

For sure, but I suggested that for the level range of around 250ish that the OP mentioned initially. Although as I said, with Nidus you could make that work indefinitely, by just making sure you're generating more stacks than losing with undying. Outside of Nidus, yea, you'd need shield gating/vazarin to go that long. 

oh right, the Nidus Passive. i always forget about it because that stupid Camera Zoom totally disorients me and sometimes makes me nauseous DDDD:

45 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

And my point was the you picked the outliers for your electric examples.

i enjoy using Sporothrix and having the Electric Status delete things with that, too. without removing or usually even weakening the Armor! through through that Armor. 

it's not the most practical way to Kill things as a super single target Weapon, but it's certainly damn effective at what it's good at! :)
from testing, i've had Elec Status on Sporothrix ticking for well in excess of 100,000, right through the Armor. 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

For normal content, building weaknesses for Corpus and Infested is overkill. 

Viral/Slash is so valued because armor scaling eventually outscales our raw damage. 

The other damage types don't have utility strong enough to compete with straight up damage multiplication against health. They probably need utility on par with Warframe powers or Operator schools.

Suggestions;

• Magnetic: In addition to bonus damage against Shields, afflicted target sucks in enemies ala Exodia Hunt, 4.5m on first proc, 9m on 10th proc. 
• Gas: In addition to dot, afflicted enemies are put into unalerted status.
• Blast: Knockdown, afflicted enemies have entire body treated as "head" in damage calculations.
• Puncture: In addition to dealing 30% less damage up to 75%, enemies take 60% more damage up to 150%. Additive with Viral procs.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Il y a 3 heures, --END--Rikutatis a dit :

Or am I not allowed to use viral, even though the original discussion was about armor/slash?

The original discussion was about grineer armor scaling leading to stupid damage reduction.

The armor scaling makes most effects that reduce armor but not totally remove it not that effective, but in the same time that reduction is being totally ignored by slash DoT that also benefit from viral.

Of course if you use something that totally remove armor it'll be unecessary (but viral and slash both have bonus against unarmored grineers...), or you can use damage buffs that makes almost anything useable (chroma, banshee) but making any weapons useable will still favor meta weapons because at the end of the day they are more effective

And once you pass that "gear check", grineers are by far the easiest faction to deal with, while other factions become a chore to fight past "rotation C" when regular troops tend to spawn less than specialist units that prevent you from using your abilities