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change the grineer and re-adjust the damages / elements


MonsterOfMyOwn

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The while thread is about "high level", which is defined as "survival after 20min in steel path", because it's when the spawning of "annoying enemy type" is becoming significant.

After 20min, when playing against infested the number of ancient / parasitic eximus is becoming annoying, and past 1h you're really struggling to keep energy up. And once you reach around lvl 250 the toxin damage / gas / etc usually ~1HKO you.

After 20min, when playing against Corpus there are nullies everywhere, Jupiter is crippled by several types of nullies, Corpus ships have small corridors that makes you feel like there are no places without nullies, and also shield drones, bursa and grenades can become a bit of an issue.

Grineer are quite strange : their "strength" comes from a really high armor value, they have some interresting units (manics, bombards, Nox), but their armor is quite strange : it scales to stupid high amounts, but in the same time it's totally removed by (some) warframe powers, and made irrelevant by Viral + Slash. ANd at the same time anything that is not 100% armor reduction becomes insignificant because of the high armor values.

 

They about the elements themselves : if you want to do damage against shielded and armored corpus robots it's really a chore because you'll need mag, something to remove armor, and radiation or elec which are impossible to get in 1 weapon (whereas you can have corrosive + heat or viral + heat and Viral on both), and corrosive + heat, and even viral + heat is good against both grineed and infested

 

I think that the game would benefit from

  • Grineer armor and armor removal need some changes. Perhaps a hard cap of armor at level 50 (which would be still high amount armor and RD for bombard, around 2500 armor IIRC), perhaps add some small shield values to "light" grineer unit to compensate.
  • Add annoying units in grineer mission, why not a unit that deal magnetic damage, or even demolisher with some nullifier pusles.
  • reduce the nullifiers spam in corpus mission, and the parasitic eximus / ancient spam in infested
  • change the damage chart so that what works against grineer ain't also what's best against infested, and make corpus less demanding : tox is not that good combined with tox, and the toughest Corpus either have high HP (corpus tech), or are robots with armor.

 

P.S.  : oh, and a "New Steel path +" starting at lvl 250 with enemies spawns starting as if it was past 20min and with only rotation C rewards would be much appreciated

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Enemy ehp was already adjusted. 

The point is for you to actually learn how to deal with that armor using the games mechanics. 

And keep in mind we're not balancing armor around 3 hour runs. Level 250 steel path enemies aren't a baseline.

And if you need more elements you have more than 1 weapon. 

Put corrosive on one weapon and radiation on another. 

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à l’instant, (PSN)Madurai-Prime a dit :

Enemy ehp was already adjusted. 

The point is for you to actually learn how to deal with that armor using the games mechanics. 

And keep in mind we're not balancing armor around 3 hour runs. Level 250 steel path enemies aren't a baseline.

And if you need more elements you have more than 1 weapon. 

Put corrosive on one weapon and radiation on another. 

the actual meta is "Viral + slash and you won't be wrong", at lower level "corrosive + heat" ain't bad either, but it stall when the armor values reaches high values.

Radiation is either niche (against boss that are immune to slash) or good as CC (low damage, high status chance)

the actual meta can be "any Viral primer + melee" or "hunter munition with high crit primary"

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19 minutes ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

"survival after 20min in steel path"

Haha, no. SP in general is something that should never be considered when it comes to balancing enemies. It's also sort of half the point for SP to have "annoying" enemies when it was added specifically to fight said enemies without waiting hours in an endless mission.

If anything enemies need buffs and everything you're suggesting would only make the game even more trivial.

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il y a 4 minutes, trst a dit :

Haha, no. SP in general is something that should never be considered when it comes to balancing enemies. It's also sort of half the point for SP to have "annoying" enemies when it was added specifically to fight said enemies without waiting hours in an endless mission.

If anything enemies need buffs and everything you're suggesting would only make the game even more trivial.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. Past a point nullies or ancient spawns more than regular units, which leave a very few options (invisibility against corpus with primed reach, octavia...), and against infested you really have to struggle with energy issue.

About not steel path, any half modded weapon work, and most content can be trivialized if you infuse Gauss 3rd ability. (Relic extermination is all about titania with gauss 3rd or wukong with bramma ... etc)

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i can appreciate that Infested are a huge chore to play against, because of the entire room will be full of Ancients and so literally constant spamming of their homing Grappling Hooks that will apply Toxin or drain 500+ Energy in a single hit.
there's things you could do against this, but, it's inherently just dumb. all that ends up doing is encouraging Players to limit break the Enemies and just turn them off before they can do anything (exactly what Digital Extremes doesn't like).

 

that being said, i don't see any reasons to change the Health Types of any Enemies, nor change the Damage Types. people that rely on Viral and Slash Status to deal Damage are Killing things slowly and inefficiently, and that's their choice to take. i wouldn't want to Kill Enemies that slow, but clearly there are Players out there that don't mind being so weak.

Corpus have lots of Nullifiers punishing anyone using Weapons that don't have a high Rate of Fire or lots of multi-hits? it sucks that they're so restricting on what Weapons can be viable, but it is what it is.
Grineer having Armor? idunno, learn to be a better Player and deal Damage without removing or bypassing Armor.

 

2 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

the actual meta

you don't know what that is.

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for armor, basically bringing enough heat and status chance can defeat them. seriously, heat is almost certainly the best of the basic elements, reducing armor and providing CC and DoT when enemies are ignited. I wish more damage types were as effective (looking at you Blast). obviously take corrosive too if you can.

for Nullifiers, they've been nerfed to the ground since their introduction, you have plenty of ways to kill them: rushing in with melee still works, High RoF weapons have always worked, and now they have a drone you can shoot with even the slowest guns to disable their ability permanently. nowadays they only annoy me when they run into Limbo's Cataclysm, or are protecting heavy Eximus units (or are Arctic Eximus units themselves so they have both the frost bubble and the nully bubble). even then they are easily dealt with. hell, if you're willing to rely more on a good secondary for general combat, you could even take a Miter with the Augment for the specific purpose of popping nully bubbles. 

infested are probably the worst because there isn't much to counter Eximus Auras (certain Hounds can do it though), and the constant riplining gets annoying too, at the same time though, they are balanced by not having armor or shields to defend themselves with and being mostly reliant on melee attacks, which puts them at a clear disadvantage against players with decent ranged weapons, and they don't really stand up to most meles either due to their weakness to slash damage.

this is all without adding into the fact that we also have powers for CCing enemies in place, buffing our damage output, and resisting the damage they put out. put into perspective, we are considerably stronger and with a much more varied kit than any enemy type. we have so many tools at our disposal, that if anyone needs a fighting chance, it's the enemy lol. 

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4 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

After 20min, when playing against infested the number of ancient / parasitic eximus is becoming annoying, and past 1h you're really struggling to keep energy up. And once you reach around lvl 250 the toxin damage / gas / etc usually ~1HKO you.

After 20min, when playing against Corpus there are nullies everywhere, Jupiter is crippled by several types of nullies, Corpus ships have small corridors that makes you feel like there are no places without nullies, and also shield drones, bursa and grenades can become a bit of an issue.

Grineer are quite strange : their "strength" comes from a really high armor value, they have some interresting units (manics, bombards, Nox), but their armor is quite strange : it scales to stupid high amounts, but in the same time it's totally removed by (some) warframe powers, and made irrelevant by Viral + Slash. ANd at the same time anything that is not 100% armor reduction becomes insignificant because of the high armor values.

 

I mean, that's the beauty of Warframe's arsenal. Take what works best for each specific faction and situation. A frame that can handle hunter adrenaline/rage in their build will basically trivialize the infested's energy drain. Then just use some ability that denies status effects to avoid knockdowns and toxin. Or alternatively some mods and arcanes also serve that purpose, like primed sure footed or arcane resistance. For Corpus either consider your positioning on the tilesets more carefully (don't camp in small corridors), or take a frame that won't be helpess if their abilities are temporarily disabled. And so on and so forth. 

 

4 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Now the the dust has settled the only populated nodes are Selkie/sedna and perhaps Mot or Ani for relic farming

I mean if you're doing long runs, which seems to be the point of your original post, then I don't see why this matters. You basically just pick whichever tileset sounds more fun for you at that time. Selkie just seems to be the node all the youtubers spam to make their videos, but there's so many other cool tilesets to enjoy in Warframe if you're doing long runs, like Lua or Orokin Derelict.

Personally, I highly recommend Disruption for a completely different and more challenging experience. I love me some Survival AoE carnage as well, don't get me wrong, but Disruption is something most of the cookie cutter youtubers ignore, but that's the real Warframe experience for me. People complain about AoE being too strong while ignoring disruption exists. In Disruption the weapon meta can be very different and AoE barely matters, so many single target weapons can truly shine. Enemies level scale a LOT faster, so if your goal is to fight high level enemies, that's by far the best mission type. It's just a completely different experience, you don't need to constrain yourself to Selkie or Mot. 

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Il y a 4 heures, taiiat a dit :

that being said, i don't see any reasons to change the Health Types of any Enemies, nor change the Damage Types. people that rely on Viral and Slash Status to deal Damage are Killing things slowly and inefficiently, and that's their choice to take. i wouldn't want to Kill Enemies that slow, but clearly there are Players out there that don't mind being so weak.

Appart from Octavia I don't see what's more efficient that slash ignoring armor buffed by viral.

And yes you can bring a Banshee that boost damage to new high.

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2 минуты назад, MonsterOfMyOwn сказал:

Appart from Octavia I don't see what's more efficient that slash ignoring armor buffed by viral.

And yes you can bring a Banshee that boost damage to new high.

Nukor + C.O.  melee. Khora. Plenty of other things I suppose.

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Il y a 2 heures, --END--Rikutatis a dit :

A frame that can handle hunter adrenaline/rage in their build will basically trivialize the infested's energy drain. Then just use some ability that denies status effects to avoid knockdowns and toxin. Or alternatively some mods and arcanes also serve that purpose, like primed sure footed or arcane resistance. For Corpus either consider your positioning on the tilesets more carefully (don't camp in small corridors), or take a frame that won't be helpess if their abilities are temporarily disabled. And so on and so forth. 

As I'm talking about 20min+ steel path, adrenaline is a bit "too dangerous", and yes I play Lavos or Grendel.

But look Mag or grendel are supposed to be good against corpus, but as nullies are spammed you can't even rely on your own abilities. 

I have a "Gloom" Grendel that is damn efficient for 1h runs, and a warcry/ eternal war lavos that i also tried in > infested survival.

I think that above lvl 250 or something meatshields become irrelevant and you need either stealth, or CC or true invulnerability

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5 minutes ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

As I'm talking about 20min+ steel path, adrenaline is a bit "too dangerous", and yes I play Lavos or Grendel.

But look Mag or grendel are supposed to be good against corpus, but as nullies are spammed you can't even rely on your own abilities. 

I have a "Gloom" Grendel that is damn efficient for 1h runs, and a warcry/ eternal war lavos that i also tried in > infested survival.

I think that above lvl 250 or something meatshields become irrelevant and you need either stealth, or CC or true invulnerability

Try Nidus. Nidus can meatshield to enemy levels in the thousands, probably level cap, by just keeping your stacks going and not running out. And his parasitic link also gives him the knockdown immunity you need from infested, so he's basically perfect for the job. I seem to remember Inaros meatshielding until around 400ish as well, but maybe that was with an ancient healer specter, can't remember. But yea, these meatshields like Inaros and Grendel can go longer with the ancient healer, but that's a more camping playstyle. But since you talked about 20min+ and level 250ish in your original post, that's why I mentioned hunter adrenaline. At that level range you can definitely meatshield. 

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7 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Enemy ehp was already adjusted. 

The point is for you to actually learn how to deal with that armor using the games mechanics. 

And keep in mind we're not balancing armor around 3 hour runs. Level 250 steel path enemies aren't a baseline.

And if you need more elements you have more than 1 weapon. 

Put corrosive on one weapon and radiation on another. 

It was adjusted yes.

It wasn't adjusted well.

 

As you say, the point is to learn how to deal with the game's mechanics, but Armour as it is completely screws with that because it scales faster than anything else, even post-adjustment. As a result Armour is so overwhelmingly powerful that is has warped those mechanics around itself. People are talking about how you can deal with armour, but does anyone ever actually build for shield busting, with the possible exception of for Hounds when Sister-hunting? Even in Steel Path mind you. We can deal with armour, but that doesn't mean the game is healthy. It just means that we're ignoring the problem that one group of enemies typically has 10X the durability of everything else. Everything in the game needs to be built around how well it fares vs armour, or it's considered useless. This is why Slash, Viral, Heat and Corrosive are 'the' meta, rather than the Grineer meta. Everything in the game is now on armour's tier and playing by armour's rules - anything that isn't armour isn't worth considering. It's so absurd that Slash is Meta against armour when armour is actually supposed to resist Slash damage. Seriously. Double-check Slash's damage weighting - it's -15% against ferrite, and -50% against Alloy armour. But slash procs bypass it, so in almost all circumstances, stacking on as much slash damage as possible is preferable over Puncture which is supposed to be the anti-armour physical damage type. 

You don't 'learn the game's mechanics', you learn how to deal with armour, and because anything that can deal with armour is typically dealing with something that's on a different order of magnitude or two from the rest of the game, shields and health are typically a total non-issue.

The scaling rate for shields, armour and health needs to be the same. The actual numbers are, if not irrelevant, far less important than the proportions to each other.

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26 minutes ago, SpiritTeA said:

Nukor + C.O.  melee. Khora. Plenty of other things I suppose.

I mean, what melee are we talking about? Most of the melees considered top tier have forced slash procs and that's why they're considered top tier. I agree with OP, at super high levels I don't think anything is more efficient at dealing with armor than 10x stacks of viral and slash, UNLESS you do a full armor strip first with abilities. Obviously I'm talking about hypothetical really high levels in the thousands here, at baseline Steel Path level it kinda doesn't matter, a lot of things can kill them, so it's basically whatever has the highest AoE. 

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3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It was adjusted yes.

It wasn't adjusted well.

 

As you say, the point is to learn how to deal with the game's mechanics, but Armour as it is completely screws with that because it scales faster than anything else, even post-adjustment. As a result Armour is so overwhelmingly powerful that is has warped those mechanics around itself. People are talking about how you can deal with armour, but does anyone ever actually build for shield busting, with the possible exception of for Hounds when Sister-hunting? Even in Steel Path mind you. We can deal with armour, but that doesn't mean the game is healthy. It just means that we're ignoring the problem that one group of enemies typically has 10X the durability of everything else. Everything in the game needs to be built around how well it fares vs armour, or it's considered useless. This is why Slash, Viral, Heat and Corrosive are 'the' meta, rather than the Grineer meta. Everything in the game is now on armour's tier and playing by armour's rules - anything that isn't armour isn't worth considering. It's so absurd that Slash is Meta against armour when armour is actually supposed to resist Slash damage. Seriously. Double-check Slash's damage weighting - it's -15% against ferrite, and -50% against Alloy armour. But slash procs bypass it, so in almost all circumstances, stacking on as much slash damage as possible is preferable over Puncture which is supposed to be the anti-armour physical damage type. 

You don't 'learn the game's mechanics', you learn how to deal with armour, and because anything that can deal with armour is typically dealing with something that's on a different order of magnitude or two from the rest of the game, shields and health are typically a total non-issue.

The scaling rate for shields, armour and health needs to be the same. The actual numbers are, if not irrelevant, far less important than the proportions to each other.

Viral heat is a meta because the casual and inexperienced players admit they are too lazy to change their mod configs between missions. 

Nezhas chakram with 225 strength makes it so it doesn't matter how you mod. And that's just one example. 

If someone can't figure out how to kill grineer or corrupted with 3 separately-moddable weapons plus a warframe and in even more situations having other teammates.... giving you an extra set of 3 more weapons and another frame.....that player is inexperienced and hasn't progressed enough in game.

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Viral heat is a meta because the casual and inexperienced players admit they are too lazy to change their mod configs between missions. 

Nezhas chakram with 225 strength makes it so it doesn't matter how you mod. And that's just one example. 

If someone can't figure out how to kill grineer or corrupted with 3 separately-moddable weapons plus a warframe and in even more situations having other teammates.... giving you an extra set of 3 more weapons and another frame.....that player is inexperienced and hasn't progressed enough in game.

Did you read what I wrote? Because this reply doesn't actually address my point in any meaningful fashion.

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40 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As you say, the point is to learn how to deal with the game's mechanics, but Armour as it is completely screws with that because it scales faster than anything else, even post-adjustment. As a result Armour is so overwhelmingly powerful that is has warped those mechanics around itself. People are talking about how you can deal with armour, but does anyone ever actually build for shield busting, with the possible exception of for Hounds when Sister-hunting? Even in Steel Path mind you. We can deal with armour, but that doesn't mean the game is healthy. It just means that we're ignoring the problem that one group of enemies typically has 10X the durability of everything else. Everything in the game needs to be built around how well it fares vs armour, or it's considered useless. This is why Slash, Viral, Heat and Corrosive are 'the' meta, rather than the Grineer meta. Everything in the game is now on armour's tier and playing by armour's rules - anything that isn't armour isn't worth considering. It's so absurd that Slash is Meta against armour when armour is actually supposed to resist Slash damage. Seriously. Double-check Slash's damage weighting - it's -15% against ferrite, and -50% against Alloy armour. But slash procs bypass it, so in almost all circumstances, stacking on as much slash damage as possible is preferable over Puncture which is supposed to be the anti-armour physical damage type. 

While I 100% agree with you that this is how the community as a whole perceives the issue and deals with it, I have to say it's a also a huge exaggeration. Post enemies ehp nerf, the enemies are so paper thin, even steel path ones, that you REALLY don't need slash or armor strip to deal with them in many cases (at least for the strongest weapons). Specially considering the absolute monster viral became. Just to cite two examples, most of the youtube builds showcasing phantasma and proboscis cernos will tell you to mod them for viral/heat or corrosive/heat, but I use viral/electricity for phantasma and pure electricity for proboscis (since it already has innate viral explosion) and that melts steel path grineers just as easily as the other builds. No armor strip at all, just pure electricity procs amplified by viral stacks and they die like paper. 

Also bear in mind the OP was specifically talking about long runs, and in that scenario of a long endurance run you absolutely must mod for toxin if you're going against corpus. Sure, at baseline level anything will kill corpus, but just saying this doesn't scale forever against them since OP was talking long runs. 

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il y a 26 minutes, --END--Rikutatis a dit :

Also bear in mind the OP was specifically talking about long runs, and in that scenario of a long endurance run you absolutely must mod for toxin if you're going against corpus. Sure, at baseline level anything will kill corpus, but just saying this doesn't scale forever against them since OP was talking long runs. 

tbh I meant more 1h~1h30 and not longer, because of IRL things to do.

For science (and steel essence) I did a few 3h runs in a hole in Ophelia in steel path when it was a thing, and Helen when they closed the hole in Ophelia, but then I got somehow vaccinated of Khora

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46 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Just to cite two examples, most of the youtube builds showcasing phantasma and proboscis cernos will tell you to mod them for viral/heat or corrosive/heat, but I use viral/electricity for phantasma and pure electricity for proboscis (since it already has innate viral explosion) and that melts steel path grineers just as easily as the other builds. No armor strip at all, just pure electricity procs amplified by viral stacks and they die like paper. 

Congrats you picked the outliers.

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20 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Congrats you picked the outliers.

Sure, and we can keep on adding more weapons to this "outlier" category of yours. Gunblades that kill with pure raw damage without the need for slash. Or heck, why not the tenet agendus? The weapon everyone is ignoring as MR fodder, and yet can also kill with just pure raw damage and a little viral as well (even when you don't use final harbinger and avoid slash procs). But hey, guess it's easier to just keep repeating what you heard instead of testing stuff out yourself. 

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43 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

While I 100% agree with you that this is how the community as a whole perceives the issue and deals with it, I have to say it's a also a huge exaggeration. Post enemies ehp nerf, the enemies are so paper thin, even steel path ones, that you REALLY don't need slash or armor strip to deal with them in many cases (at least for the strongest weapons). Specially considering the absolute monster viral became. Just to cite two examples, most of the youtube builds showcasing phantasma and proboscis cernos will tell you to mod them for viral/heat or corrosive/heat, but I use viral/electricity for phantasma and pure electricity for proboscis (since it already has innate viral explosion) and that melts steel path grineers just as easily as the other builds. No armor strip at all, just pure electricity procs amplified by viral stacks and they die like paper. 

Also bear in mind the OP was specifically talking about long runs, and in that scenario of a long endurance run you absolutely must mod for toxin if you're going against corpus. Sure, at baseline level anything will kill corpus, but just saying this doesn't scale forever against them since OP was talking long runs. 

Not really. I don't know if the Warframe wiki uses the new scaling, but at level 70 (where that new scaling starts, or thereabouts), a Grineer Heavy Gunner has about 253,000 effective hit points. The most comparable Corpus enemy, a Tech, has about 38,000 effective hit points. 44,000 if we count that they spawn a shield drone that recharges their shields. That means that, even taking into account the shield drone, a Heavy Gunner at level 70 has around five and a half-ish times as much effective health than a Corpus Tech. What's worse, this gap gets proportionally bigger, even though it's at a slower rate. This is as depicted in this graph here:

The Armor Change And How It Barely Does Anything - General - Warframe Forums

Source: 

Spoiler

I commented in this thread defending the changes at the time, but I was wrong.

 

The issue isn't how easy or difficult it is to kill Grineer now. The issue is that this situation prevents a healthy and diverse meta from occurring, and continues to cause issues into the future. After all, even if at the moment Grineer are 'too squishy' that you can use other options, they are still proportionally more durable than everything else, which means that the meta remains ultimately the best option. At best, just going by how hard it currently is to kill Grineer and saying it's ok or that Grineer are too squishy is kicking the can down the road. If this trend exists, then sooner or later, Grineer will

After all, enemy levels do increase over time from a broader development perspective. I mean, what were levels you practically experienced back then, that is to say, levels that had nodes available? Around 100-ish. Now it's 140, with more than double their health and armour. And DE have already had to respond to the damage system being broken because guns didn't do enough damage to armour once already. What I'm saying is that this problem runs much deeper than the now.

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