Why do we have standing limit at max rank?

[Archaemn_Games]

Well why not instead of making it just NOT have a cap, you make the cap larger. Plague Star had tons and tons of max rep. You can still only bring in so much standing a day no matter how hard you grind, so why not just make the pool bigger so that you grind more in total, but also have a nicer payout when you finally do decide to start buying stuff? The grind is still there and is still unavoidable so I see no reason that you shouldn't be able to have more standing in each syndicate.

Plus, if the standing does have a cap, eventually you WILL go into the negative and regress back down a rank. That problem's solved.

As far as relic packs go, I'm on the side of "So what??" because even if you buy say.. 100 relic packs and get tons of new relics on the day they come out, there's no real guarantee you'll actually get the part you want from those relics. At that point you're at the whim of the RNG gods and they aren't always very loving.  One time I cracked 127 relics and didn't get the part I wanted. Is it really so bad to be able to buy large quantities of relics when stuff like that is possible?

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2021-10-19 at 1:14 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Because if you had no Cap you could stack on reputation with one Syndicate then rank another that is opposed to it without going negative.

I 100% get what you're saying but this is a bad system altogether.  Not only does the whole "these syndicates hate each other" thing max zero sense, you can make rank all of them.  I was a "general" in Steel Meridian.  How do they hate me now because I did some favors for another group?  The whole system needs an overhaul.  Getting to max with a syndicate should prevent them from losing rank or going negative at least.

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Wall Of Text 😱 !!!

 

To which you would usually pick out and reply to. Either you're tired from the other thread, or you can't actually refute anything about it. In either case, I'm doing my job ^^

[Birdframe_Prime]

[Double post... damn wi-fi]

[Kaichi16]

49 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

To which you would usually pick out and reply to. Either you're tired from the other thread, or you can't actually refute anything about it. In either case, I'm doing my job ^^

yeah, no.

while i agree with most of what you said there, it's too long and unnecessary.

also, coming back just to say "blu blu blu you cant refute, my job is done" is a cheap provocation and pretty arrogant. 

if it's not related to the post, keep it in your thoughts or send him a direct message. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, Kaichi16 said:

also, coming back just to say "blu blu blu you cant refute, my job is done" is a cheap provocation and pretty arrogant.

I'm sorry that you don't have the background on this, but me and Lutesque have been arguing on here for around three or four years now.

When points are scored, we tally them.

And, as a point, 'long and unnecessary' is the absolute essence of these Forums. Snappy comebacks, specifically like the one you just did, while pointing out that I did one (which is pretty hypocritical to be honest, especially when I was replying to a completely non-contributing comment in kind), are kind of pointless. But hey, I've already done one in this thread, so I guess I'm just a bad example. And so is Lute.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I 100% get what you're saying but this is a bad system altogether.  Not only does the whole "these syndicates hate each other" thing max zero sense, you can make rank all of them.  I was a "general" in Steel Meridian.  How do they hate me now because I did some favors for another group?  The whole system needs an overhaul.  Getting to max with a syndicate should prevent them from losing rank or going negative at least.

Ah, someone else who actually noticed the blatant inconsistencies & is willing to call them out for what they are. Why play through quests like The Glast Gambit or The Silver Grove if it doesn't change the dynamic in player/syndicate relations? I can help rescue the Myconian colonists from the clutches of Nef Anyo and then immediately get a Perrin death squad hunting me down in the next mission. Why do death squads exist if the Tenno quite literally carry every single syndicate and could easily render them nonexistent with just a Machete and an ounce of sociopathy? More over, why have six factions inhabit a tiny space if they can't stand each other's guts? Faction syndicates lack nuance, there is no depth to the interactions we can have with them. Grind shouldn't be the only reason behind their existence, otherwise that immersive façade is as worthless as anything related to the Conclave.

[Azkunki]

Le 23/10/2021 à 06:31, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff a dit :

Ah, someone else who actually noticed the blatant inconsistencies & is willing to call them out for what they are. Why play through quests like The Glast Gambit or The Silver Grove if it doesn't change the dynamic in player/syndicate relations? I can help rescue the Myconian colonists from the clutches of Nef Anyo and then immediately get a Perrin death squad hunting me down in the next mission. Why do death squads exist if the Tenno quite literally carry every single syndicate and could easily render them nonexistent with just a Machete and an ounce of sociopathy? More over, why have six factions inhabit a tiny space if they can't stand each other's guts? Faction syndicates lack nuance, there is no depth to the interactions we can have with them. Grind shouldn't be the only reason behind their existence, otherwise that immersive façade is as worthless as anything related to the Conclave.

Indeed. They could still despise us for supporting a syndicate they despise, but that doesn't mean they don't value our help. However, there's one thing that I'm surprised nobody said while it seems so obvious to me, but... Even if positive max cap is removed, and negative one is left as is (which is best by the way. The lower the max negative cap is, the longer it will be to switch to the other syndicates, if you really want to do that for whatever reason), it's just not worth it to max out all 6 syndicates. I'm not willing to calculate exactly what that would imply, but basically you would need to farm 2 MILLION (total) standing that would only serve as a buffer. And if you failed in your calculations or forgot and wasted too much standing for a syndicate that needed to be ranked up, you'll have to start all over again at least for that syndicate, or unrank for a syndicate you already were in good terms with. And in any case, you will NOT be able to keep every syndicate at rank 5, unless you stop gaining standing for any of them, which means you will also be unable to keep buying them stuff. Every single point you gain for a syndicate, you lose for another, no matter how you get them.

The only reason why it's possible to have 4 syndicates rank 5 is because there's one between Red Veil and Steel Meridian (depending on your other syndicates) that you will never do anything for, only for their allies (or if you do, you will lose standing for both of your two others syndicates. So unless you want speed things a little and don't care to lose some standing for the others, you will want to avoid that). Which means you can only get for them half of your daily standing per day, and no medaillons. And unless you're dropping the two other syndicates (in which case you couldn't much say anymore to have 4 syndicates, as you could only use 2 of them), you will still lose standing for RV / SM (to make things simpler, I'll now take own my syndicates, which are Hexis/Suda + Meridian). Meaning that to keep things as balanced as possible, you will have to either get :
12.5% of your daily standing for both Hexis and Suda and 75% for Meridian, which totals to 14.3% of the total standing gained for Hexis, Suda AND Veil, and 57.1% for Meridian),
or something like...
15.4% of your daily standing for both Hexis and Suda, and 69.2% for Medirian, which totals to 18.2% of the total standing gained for Hexis and Suda, and 54.5% for Meridian, but only 9.1% for Veil (since you wasted more of it). But as you can see, it barely makes any difference for SM, while it has a heavy impact on RV.

Note that when I said "total standing gained", I meant "after earning back what has been lost on RV". If you earned 1000 standing for Hexis and Suda (meaning they both actually got 1500), then you lost 1500 for RV, so you have to get 3000 with SM to mitigate that, then 3000 more to have a total of 1500, or as much as the other two (but SM is at 6000). So you technically got 3000 standing for RV, but only 1500 of it is usable for purchases.

Personally, I wouldn't say the max cap should be removed, but 132k when a weapon costs up to 125k, that's not enough. You can easily waste standing because of that (or at least time for farming it, which if you decide to do, means you're most likely doing the daily missions, which help a lot in getting the daily standing done. By the way, medaillons are not that hard to find with a Limbo and good loot radar, and there's also the helminth's 15th metamorphosis that seems awesome, although I can't try it yet and didn't check wiki or vids to know if I expect too much of it or not). And poeple here mostly spoke about those, but there are many other syndicates. And you can't farm those passively, so increasing their standing cap is only QoL (remember you still have daily standing. Which was nerfed by the way, for those who forgot or didn't know). Also, you technically already have no cap (in a way) for Entrati, Necraloid, Vox Solaris and The Quills (not counting fishing for Ostrons and Solaris United as nearly nobody farms standing that way. Also not counting medaillons as you can only get a limited amount per syndicate per day), as you only need to go see them and redeem what they want, if you have it already (so you can farm 10 hours and have enough for weeks, if you wish. Main difference with actual no cap is that you still need to manage purchases according to the cap. But again, remember there's already the daily standing limit).

 

In short, I think for the main syndicates it should be increased to at least 150k, more would be better, and if too high for the amount of relic packs it would allow to get, the amount purchasable could be limited (1 or 2 more per day, fixed value to choose or simply random. Amount and probability could even scale with MR), stackable to X at most (currently ~6.5 are purchasable when standing is capped. Stacking to 8-10 at most seems fair to me. And I think that's a much, much better solution than the price increase you talked about). Apart from items that cannot be owned more than once, that would be the first time something has a limited number of purchases. But why not ? It's not a bad thing, and if it must be a thing, there has to be a first.
As for mods and weapons, who cares ? Prices might go down a little, but not that much. The lower it is, the less people will want to invest in it. And it's already not that high anyway, there are plenty of better ways to farm plat (including for new players, ways that will even be available for them before syndicates are, especially if they want to buy first what they need for themselves. Which will usually be the case).

 

  

Le 19/10/2021 à 18:53, Kaichi16 a dit :

run Ukko(literally one relic per minute)

If not less. I stumbled upon that just a few days ago xD

 

  

Le 21/10/2021 à 07:57, Kaichi16 a dit :

i find it a bit stupid that the cap is 132k but max rank stuff cost 100k~125k... it costs ALL your standing. high costs should be put on one-time buyings, like cosmetics, but weapons, captura stuff, those things can be sold and you'll probably sell more than one.

You seem to not take into account that lower price in syndicate standing means lower price in plat when selling afterwards. With the limited number of trades per day, you can't just sell more of them to offset the decreased price. So if you buy syndicate weapons to sell them, you don't want them to cost less standing (buyers would, however. But "expensive" is relative. No economic system can have nothing expensive, everything cheap. Unless you make that economy pointless, so it wouldn't last long as people wouldn't want to bother with it. Or they would increase their prices so that prices mean something).

 

  

Le 21/10/2021 à 11:21, Lutesque a dit :

OP Wants the Max Cap Increased... That Includes the Max Negative Cap aswell.... You're just concocting a scenario just so you can disagree with OP....

Honeslty, while I agree with OP, I think you're the only one that considered OP was including negative cap. Then again, as I explained above (mainly with the first paragraph), it actually doesn't matter if the negative cap is changed.

 

  

Le 21/10/2021 à 20:13, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

I didn't say it's a good thing.

The point of feedback forums is to point out what is wrong and saying what we think should be done to fix that though (if we have something to suggest. Not having something to suggest doesn't make an issue "not an issue"), isn't it ? ^^

 

Le 22/10/2021 à 09:38, Archaemn_Games a dit :

even if you buy say.. 100 relic packs and get tons of new relics on the day they come out, there's no real guarantee you'll actually get the part you want from those relics. At that point you're at the whim of the RNG gods and they aren't always very loving.  One time I cracked 127 relics and didn't get the part I wanted. Is it really so bad to be able to buy large quantities of relics when stuff like that is possible?

It's not about how things go for us, it's about how things go for thhe players as a whole. You may not get the part with 100 relics, but you may also get it 25 times. While the average is 10. Considering you're always the only one opening that relic for a rare item, in radiant. Which has little chance to happen on relics for a brand new prime frame.

[Birdframe_Prime]

54 minutes ago, Azkunki said:

The point of feedback forums is to point out what is wrong and saying what we think should be done to fix that though (if we have something to suggest. Not having something to suggest doesn't make an issue "not an issue"), isn't it ? ^^

You're absolutely right, from that point of view, but consider this;

This topic is not new. We not only have discussed it before, but we actually know the answers, both from those multiple debates and from the changes DE have made over time proving the discussions right.

When the answer to the topic literally is 'We have it because DE deliberately put it in for the reason of extending the game by making players engage with the sub-systems' the right thing to do on the thread is explain that to the newer player that is asking the question.

Unlike before, when these subjects came up, we don't need to rehash the whole debate.

Once that answer is explained, the next actual step of the discussion can be made, which is to ask 'If DE have put this in for a reason, what changes can we make that keep DE's reason intact, but make it functionally better for us?'

So, DE's goal; make the grind longer.

DE's method; Daily cap on progress to prevent passive grind and cap on total progress to prevent non-engagement stockpiling.

DE's allowances: Daily cap can be bypassed by engaging with sub-system, with both the missions and the unique collectables granting over-the-daily-cap progress. Collectables can be stockpiled for the future, but cannot be gained without engaging with the sub-system in the first place.

Result: Players have to grind a little of what they actually want to grind, building up to the cap passively, then must grind the specific missions to get bonus Standing and collectables that can be traded for Standing in the future. This takes them out of the regular grind that they would be doing and limits them into grinding only that content for the duration of approximately three, maybe six if they have balanced the progress, missions. Not too intrusive, but intrusive enough to extend grind.

What can we do, in light of the goal (extending grind), to allow for what OP wants?

Since DE want to prevent Stockpiling without Engagement, and they want to prevent Passive progress gain giving the player everything without Engagement... What changes could you make to the system to allow for an un-capped maximum Standing?

See, the comparison to make would be to players that don't want to un-cap Standing Maximum, but want to remove the Daily Cap.

This would allow players to max out their Standing from Passive grind, just play other missions with a Syndicate Sigil until you're at max, and you can exploit the exact same Affinity farms that we all use anyway, like the ones that level up a Warframe in 2 minutes.

On the base Syndicates, that would be pretty powerful, and on Focus that would allow a player to functionally hit the max on all Schools in (we did the maths) around 46 hours. But on the Fortuna, Cetus and Necralisk, that wouldn't be all that bad because you have to complete actual missions and goals in order to gain Standing in the first place.

If you could only get Syndicate Standing from completing the Syndicate missions and finding Medallions, then an un-capped Daily would be absolutely fine. Same with Focus, if you had dedicated Focus gaining missions (like Sanctuary Onslaught) and the Eidolon hunts to grant you the Shards, then uncapped Daily progression would be absolutely fine because you would have to go to these dedicated points to get the progress, you would have to get out of the regular grind, and couldn't do anything passively.

But I don't see anything, not as such, that supports the un-capped maximum standing idea.

Are there any ideas that you could offer to allow for that?

[Kaichi16]

3 hours ago, Azkunki said:

You seem to not take into account that lower price in syndicate standing means lower price in plat when selling afterwards. With the limited number of trades per day, you can't just sell more of them to offset the decreased price. So if you buy syndicate weapons to sell them, you don't want them to cost less standing (buyers would, however. But "expensive" is relative. No economic system can have nothing expensive, everything cheap. Unless you make that economy pointless, so it wouldn't last long as people wouldn't want to bother with it. Or they would increase their prices so that prices mean something).

well, think like this: a augment mod can be sold for around  10pl and costs 25k standing

weapons can be sold for 30pl(max[i havent seem any higher than this]) and cost 100k~125k standing. 

weapons price is already pretty low.

i just feel this whole system could be better used or have more consequences. 

BTW, as i said before, i'm not talking only about syndicates, but SIMARIS TOO. 

y'know, they could totally make it harder to get standing, as long as we have a higher cap. Warframe has sorties, daily steel path missions, nightwave, daily login rewards, (hopefully) a daily forma you left crafting... we have more than enough "come back every day" things and syndicates are outdated.

deimos standing feels good because i can just farm thousands of mother coins and just trade them whenever i feel like. "you can get medalions" yes, a small amount and with the RNG(will the medalions be higher quality or the lowest?)

having so many systems makes most people just ignore the bothersome ones. i think it's been over a year i dont do syndicate stuff, it's just not worth it.

[Azkunki]

Le 24/10/2021 à 16:27, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

You're absolutely right, from that point of view, but consider this;

[...]

Honestly, I forgot a lot since last time (never planned to be active on the forums, I didn't even come back to check if there were replies initially), and too lazy to read everything again, which would be required to answer you. So I won't, sorry.

 

Le 24/10/2021 à 18:52, Kaichi16 a dit :

well, think like this: a augment mod can be sold for around  10pl and costs 25k standing

weapons can be sold for 30pl(max[i havent seem any higher than this]) and cost 100k~125k standing. 

weapons price is already pretty low.

i just feel this whole system could be better used or have more consequences. 

BTW, as i said before, i'm not talking only about syndicates, but SIMARIS TOO.

Yes I know you said "simaris too", and I'm pretty I said it as well. And I'm not saying the limit should be insanely high, only that it shouldn't be that close to the most expensive stuff. Also, if you're worrying that much about the weapons prices, you shouldn't. Firstly because it wouldn't change that much (the cheaper it gets, the less people will be willing to sell them. Actually, if it wasn't the case, weapons would already be worth less than 5pl), but also because there are so many other easy ways to get plats that it doesn't really matter. My inventory is filled with stuff I never farmed for and that I can sell for more than 30pl, and more easily than syndicate weapons. Also, if you really want to make the most out of syndicates, you should sell archwings weapons instead. I can sell a Corvas set for 40-45p, easily, it doesn't fill a weapon slot, and it only costs me a total of 60k standing (which is more or less half of the standing needed for a weapon). Same idea with Dual Decurion. And I'm sure you can do the same with loka+perrin+veil. You could even find someone of the opposite syndicates that sells syndicate stuff as well, to help each other completing sets for weapons that are split between syndicates you can't have by yourself, such as the Cyngas and the Fluctus (although the Perrin's part of Cyngas costs a little more for some reason, but you can just not care or sometimes get/add (depending if you would be the one with perrin or not) something else to compensate. Or find another weapon).

 

Le 24/10/2021 à 18:52, Kaichi16 a dit :

y'know, they could totally make it harder to get standing, as long as we have a higher cap. Warframe has sorties, daily steel path missions, nightwave, daily login rewards, (hopefully) a daily forma you left crafting... we have more than enough "come back every day" things and syndicates are outdated.

deimos standing feels good because i can just farm thousands of mother coins and just trade them whenever i feel like. "you can get medalions" yes, a small amount and with the RNG(will the medalions be higher quality or the lowest?)

I do agree with that however. Like the syndicate missions could become replayable, but :
1) Only the first time of each mission would grant those 3-5k standing
2) Sigils would only give standing in syndicate missions (maybe increase the percentage then however. More than actually making it more difficult, the main goal would be to stop being able to reach the standing cap without even trying). Or at least, outside of syndicate missions, the standing gained would be much lower.
3) Picking up medallions in syndicate missions already completed wouldn't add new medallions to our inventory, but give us instead some syndicate standing, that would count towards the daily cap. I'm not sure how much it should give, but enough to incitate players (at least ones that can search efficiently, such as a Limbo with max range and efficiency + Loot Detector + Thief's Wit + Primed Animal Instinct) to search for them. I guess the same value as what they would normally give is okay, the goal isn't to have people most farm their syndicate for their entire daily playtime if they want to reach the cap (then again, it would need to be tested with the new values from the sigils).
3b) Alternatively, there could be a way (either from the medallions already picked up, or from the sigil) to get a new type of medallion, that would contribute towards the daily cap. So that just as in Deimos, you could farm one day to not have to farm another. Or :
3c) Daily cap could be increased by something between 5k and 10k (?), but medallions would contribute towards the daily standing (and in this case, even with repeatable syndicate missions, you could pick them up and get them in your inventory every time you run the mission). By the way medallions should be redeemable from the orbiter (Simaris' wares should be too. Always hoped that "Simaris Offerings Console" he sells could actually be used).

[xxswatelitexx]

The answer is pretty simple, it is so you can't insta buy all the new content immedieatly - causing an immediate burn out and demanding new content 10s after new content comes out.

[Megalomaniakaal]

On 2021-10-19 at 8:14 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Because if you had no Cap you could stack on reputation with one Syndicate then rank another that is opposed to it without going negative.

This also forces players to periodically spend their rep tho many players never cap out as they often purchase mods/weapons from the Syndicates to sell.

There is also the fact that many players keep their reputation for when new Primes come out to purchase Relic packs and if you had millions of rap in stock you could spend it all on relic packs and not have to go through the normal grind of obtaining them.

Yep, I agree entirely with the assessment that this is the reason why. I still low key hate it since in most cases the "opposing" factions are the ones in terms of their characteristics that would make the most sense to actually be allied. Take Steel and Perrin for an example. So bizarre I just don't get it.