Abuse of the "Shield gate" mechanics

[EMPTY-d]

8分钟前 , (XBOX)Ampathetiic 说:

People play what the game encourages them to play, and Warframe generally doesn't encourage long endurance runs where you'd see that kind of difficulty, with Arbitrations being the main exception. People who want difficulty want a challenge to face them so they can overcome it, and going out of your way to seek that challenge- which is what you're doing by sitting in one mission for a long time- doesn't feel rewarding or meaningful.

As for the content Warframe encourages you to play, it can all be trivialized by unbalanced items. If you want difficulty in Warframe, you have to sit around for ages or kneecap yourself so that you can pretend the game has any difficulty.

But here lies a useful way to help surviving long-time missions, it is there, won't do any harm if stays there.

Warframe may not be a game that encourages ten hour long play, but I see no reason to remove a useful technique for it.

[AegidiusF]

il y a une heure, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom a dit :

Non-Sequiter. Inaros was introduced well after Dragon Keys, so no avoiding the shield penalty when Dragon keys where introduced. Damage debuff can't be avoided either, unless you never use weapons.

Yes, "Sequitur". Just turn it other way : when they introduced Inaros int he game, they knew perfectly he won't be affected by the Decaying Dragon key at all, and they changed nothing. If Inaros weren't there when the Dragon keys were put into the game, the Keys were there when Inaros was put into the game. That's why what you said make no sense. The Devs were aware of it, and they accepted to hame a frame immune to the penalty of a Dragon key. This is intended.

 

il y a une heure, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom a dit :

Dragon keys where clearly intended to weaken the player, not be advantageous.

Really ? So go tell this to the Devs that choose to introduce in the game many frames immune to Dragon key's penalties and a system that could take advantage on the Dragon key penalty. Again : an iteraction of two INTENDED mechanics do not create an non intended mechanic.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 55 minutes, Maryph a dit :

I'm actually amazed at how many players wants this removed. It doesn't affect them, doesn't kill their fav playstyle  nor preventing them from shooting ennemies. AoE is way more problematic and still receives less complains than Shield Gating.
It just allows players who likes to play glass canons to actually play the game against HL ennemies without being OS.
I don't get it at all wtf.

Me neither, my friend.

And I don't even use the Dragon key + Shield Gate methond. But I think that if the Devs let players use them, so let people have fun with it.

I'm very glad to see answers like yours. Thank you very much.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 minute ago, EMPTY-d said:

But here lies a useful way to help surviving long-time missions, it is there, won't do any harm if stays there.

Warframe may not be a game that encourages ten hour long play, but I see no reason to remove a useful technique for it.

You were wondering why people say Warframe is too easy and why things ought to be nerfed. I provided an answer.

Personally, I don't care about shield-gate tanking being a thing; I just wish it didn't exist in such a backwards janky way that encourages people to have the smallest amount of shields possible using a gear item that's supposed to be detrimental. Ideally, shield gating should encourage building for more shields, not less.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb EMPTY-d:

Very seriously speaking, I'm surprised that there is a significant amount of players who think warframe is too easy, too powerful, need to be nerfed or so on.

Have any of you tried to play endless gaming ( for example, survival ) for more than an hour? Shielding gate will be the only thing to keep you alive then. Any enemy, anything can kill you instantly.

And now I see requests to remove it? Will enjoy your time in pieces, I hope.

 

that doesn't help at all. Cover, hard cc and skills like vaz dash play a role here.

that embarrassing thing like "Shield gate" won't do you any good. because ranged enemies on sp already do blatant damage and without a strong team in the background, everything will be shot down.
and it's not about experienced players! we have tools and we can survive. but beginners?! how is it supposed to work?... they can't heal themselves and die too quickly. current mechanic allows to survive!

the author doesn't have a clue about anything or he doesn't care about new players!

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb EMPTY-d:

But here lies a useful way to help surviving long-time missions, it is there, won't do any harm if stays there.

Warframe may not be a game that encourages ten hour long play, but I see no reason to remove a useful technique for it.

there's not even a reason to play longer than 20 minutes... but to each his own.
there are exceptions like arbi. but that's not the whole content!

[AegidiusF]

il y a 31 minutes, EMPTY-d a dit :

Very seriously speaking, I'm surprised that there is a significant amount of players who think warframe is too easy, too powerful, need to be nerfed or so on.

Have any of you tried to play endless gaming ( for example, survival ) for more than an hour? Shielding gate will be the only thing to keep you alive then. Any enemy, anything can kill you instantly.

And now I see requests to remove it? Will enjoy your time in pieces, I hope.

 

Perfect ! I totally agree with you. That's the main point, I think. People complaining about Shield gating never tied it, never got to a very high level mission.

The community asked for a long time for the changes that were introduced with shield gating. And this affects a small minority of players. Let these palyers hav fun.

[RazerXPrime]

Shield gating was implemented by DE to cope with higher level gameplay for those frames that had little to no survivability. It was a necessity for those frames that got oneshot. Imagine not having shield gating and sitting on 300HP en 150shield. You get hit by any enemy at level 100 and you're down and out. That get's annoying real fast.

Now the dragon key is perhaps a bit of an exploit. I've said this before. I think shield regen should be a % shield regen and not a flat amount. Small shields benefit way more from the mechanic vs large shield supplies. It's a bit counter intuitive. If we get % shield regen then the whole dragon key thing will be out the window.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I can also conceive that can be benefical (and they actually are). It's you that can't conceive that Dragon key's penalties can be benefical. But they work the same way Corrupted Mods' penalties work.

9 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Just as Dragon keys. Both give you a benefit

11 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Opening a vault is not a game content.

You're right: Deimos/Derelict vaults do not exist in Warframe. We've been led to believe that they exist because we're all still under the Narmer mind control. All hail our savior, Ballas!

 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 44 minutes, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

and Warframe generally doesn't encourage long endurance runs where you'd see that kind of difficulty,

It's not a question of encourage or not, it's the fact that it has the possibility to do this. Only a few players have enough time and well build stuff to endure. Disruptions are the best, as the level scales faster (in less than 3 hours you can reach cap level). And one of the ways (not the only one) to survive is to shield gate. If some players use the Dragon key to shield gate easier, good for them : it's a legit play mode.

[Silligoose]

On 2022-05-24 at 9:29 AM, siriusvirt said:

Many players abuse the "Shield gate" mechanics using it with the "Decaying Key", creating immortal warframes.

I suggest making a small change to the mechanics of the "Decaying Key" - so that it also disables the Shield gate. This will remove the abuse of Shield gate at high levels.

While I share your sentiment and hope it changes the minds of the decision makers at DE, I'm not optimistic in this regards. I'm also going to have to ruin your day:

Based on this information and many updates with new abilities and/or mechanics, I've come to the conclusion DE does not really mind introducing mechanics that conflict with the flow of foundational mechanics in this game as one comes closer to endgame. The game enjoyed towards endgame does not exist there, is replaced by something that feels tactically- and strategically lacking in comparison, far more akin to a generic shooter and I'm not so sure DE cares. Current shield gating mechanics is but one example of this.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 20 minutes, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

using a gear item that's supposed to be detrimental.

Nothing forbids to take advantage on a penalty, just as the reworked Augment Mod for Chroma's ult can take a great advantage on Blind Rage efficiency penalty.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (NSW)AegisFifi:

Perfect ! I totally agree with you. That's the main point, I think. People complaining about Shield gating never tied it, never got to a very high level mission.

The community asked for a long time for the changes that were introduced with shield gating. And this affects a small minority of players. Let these palyers hav fun.

who or what?......... really now..........

i'm more concerned with new players and not with vets with top gear. that can't be serious, can it? what's the use of this comedy?
new players should survive!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and it's not even about arbi. but also in normal missions you must not lose your exp so easily...............

I am absolutely speechless!

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Silligoose:

While I share your sentiment and hope it changes the minds of the decision makers at DE, I'm not optimistic in this regards. I'm also going to have to ruin your day:

Based on this information and many updates with new abilities and/or mechanics, I've come to the conclusion DE does not really mind introducing mechanics that conflict with the flow of foundational mechanics in this game as one comes closer to endgame. The game enjoyed towards endgame does not exist there, is replaced by something that feels tactically- and strategically lacking in comparison, far more akin to a generic shooter and I'm not so sure DE cares. Current shield gating mechanics is but one example of this.

I dont care too. but new players shouldn't just be scared off like that! many missions cannot be completed without a public group. and that on normal............

it's not okay!

[AegidiusF]

il y a 4 minutes, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

You're right: Deimos/Derelict vaults do not exist in Warframe. We've been led to believe that they exist because we're all still under the Narmer mind control. All hail our savior, Ballas!

 

When people don't have any serious arguments,  they acts like this.

Very sorry for you, my friend.

If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll be there for you !

 

 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 8 minutes, Battle.Mage a dit :

who or what?......... really now..........

i'm more concerned with new players and not with vets with top gear. that can't be serious, can it? what's the use of this comedy?
new players should survive!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and it's not even about arbi. but also in normal missions you must not lose your exp so easily...............

I am absolutely speechless!

Hey, sorry, I wasn't talking about you. My point was exactly on Endgame missions. New players are having some trouble with Eximus now, but this is another discussion. New players have to go a long way farming mods and weapons (like the way every veteran did).

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

When people don't have any serious arguments,  they acts like this.

Very sorry for you, my friend.

If you want to have a serious discussion, I'll be there for you !

 

I don't think there's any hope convincing you, but I appreciate your friendship👍

[AegidiusF]

il y a 4 minutes, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

I don't think there's any hope convincing you, but I appreciate your friendship👍

You can change my mind with serious arguments, but to be honest, there will not be such thing here : it's a question of preference. Some players like the Dragon key method and others don't. It's normal. Everybody has the right to say how he/she thinks. Even if I don't use the Dragon key method, I can understand people that uses it.

This is a sign of a nice and healthy community : even though we have different thoughts, nothing forbids from playing together and having fun together... oh! wait ! In fact, there is one thing that forbids it : lack of cross play 😂🤣😂

[(PSN)rexis12]

1 hour ago, Maryph said:

don't get it at all wtf

If I have to guess, it might be because some people say that's how you're supposed to survive in high level missions or something.

It's something I don't agree with personally, and I do wish we get an alternative to Shield Gating.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

22 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Yes, "Sequitur". Just turn it other way : when they introduced Inaros int he game, they knew perfectly he won't be affected by the Decaying Dragon key at all, and they changed nothing.

You didn't read the next part where I said that they weren't supposed to be advantageous. Inaros Ignores the penalty of Decaying Dragon Key, but the key doesn't become an advantage for him. I'll say it again: Ignoring a penalty is not the same as making it an advantage.

26 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

an iteraction of two INTENDED mechanics do not create an non intended mechanic.

Does not necessarily create an unintended mechanic. Everything is intended until it's not. I can claim that Vex Armor being a separate damage multiplier was an intended mechanic that was in the game for years. Doesn't stop DE from saying it was a bug.

Antimatter drop being able to pop all of Exploiter Orbs vents was an "intended mechanic" until it wasn't.

[(NSW)freedycurie]

il y a 1 minute, (PSN)rexis12 a dit :

If I have to guess, it might be because some people say that's how you're supposed to survive in high level missions or something.

It's something I don't agree with personally, and I do wish we get an alternative to Shield Gating.

Invisibility is much better than shield gating in my opinion.

[Maryph]

il y a 49 minutes, (NSW)AegisFifi a dit :

Me neither, my friend.

And I don't even use the Dragon key + Shield Gate methond. But I think that if the Devs let players use them, so let people have fun with it.

I'm very glad to see answers like yours. Thank you very much.

Thank you lol.
I'm also glad to see your answer, started to loose faith a bit there.

il y a 13 minutes, (PSN)rexis12 a dit :

If I have to guess, it might be because some people say that's how you're supposed to survive in high level missions or something.

It's something I don't agree with personally, and I do wish we get an alternative to Shield Gating.

You play as you want, but I can assure you that you can't survive in an edurance run without shield gate. (Unless you play a tank frame)
Just try the Void Cascade game mode in the new update and stay for 60-70 exo, shield gate is the only thing keeping you from getting One Shotted by full auto Exergis. 
Which is funny because they prevented specters from having full auto Exergis, but ennemies can perfectly fire full auto with it, what a load of bullS#&$.

If DE wants to remove Shield Gate, ok, but they have to KNOW that's the only way to survive on higher lvl and they need to give players proper ways to prevent the OS like BETTER DAMAGE SCALING.

Currently, remove Shield Gate and you'll just see more and more players shifting towards tank frames with AoE flavor because that's the only thing working. The game will not be more difficult, it'll just be a meta game.

 

 

 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 3 minutes, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom a dit :

I'll say it again: Ignoring a penalty is not the same as making it an advantage.

And I'll say it again : ignore a penalty proofs that that penalty wasn't intended to be neccessary weaken a frame.

But I agree with you, these things are different. To take advantage of a penalty is something you do with corrupted mods, as I've said many times before. And I gave the exemple of the reworked Chromas' ult augment mod, which benefits a lot from Blind Rage efficiency penalty (the less you have, the best it is).

il y a 5 minutes, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom a dit :

Does not necessarily create an unintended mechanic. Everything is intended until it's not. I can claim that Vex Armor being a separate damage multiplier was an intended mechanic that was in the game for years. Doesn't stop DE from saying it was a bug.

Antimatter drop being able to pop all of Exploiter Orbs vents was an "intended mechanic" until it wasn't.

That's just as I said before ; DE can change everything they want, intended or non intended. They can remove, or they can keep. Even if it's a bug, they can choose to keep it. We cannot think as we were DE : we aren't. We can only use the data we have. And what we have is this :

1) Dragon keys are working as intended.

2) Shield gating is working as intended.

3) The Devs were aware of Decaying Dragon key penalty when they changed shield gating.

4) The Devs are aware that some (just a few) players are using Decaying key to shield gate easier.

5) The Devs don't say anything about it and they do nothing about it.

Up to this day, this is the only data we have. Perhaps in the future they will say it's a glitch and they will change it, or pehaps not (I'm not Sir Nighteye to tell what will happen.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

And I gave the exemple of the reworked Chromas' ult augment mod, which benefits a lot from Blind Rage efficiency penalty (the less you have, the best it is).

Net benefit is still negative, as it still increases the costs. It's like Virulence; Virulence doesn't benefit from reduced efficiency, it just doesn't feel the effect as much. Guided Effigy also breaks precedent set by Spellbound Harvest.

7 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Up to this day, this is the only data we have. Perhaps in the future they will say it's a glitch and they will change it, or pehaps not (I'm not Sir Nighteye to tell what will happen.

So Tenet Detron using base Detron's stats for modded multishot projectiles is intended, got it.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2022-05-24 at 4:50 PM, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

than just leaving it to Gloom and Shield gating to fix every survivability issue.

There are already other methods. Like combat discipline+grace. Then ontop of that there is the panzer to add further health sustain. And it works from good to amazing on all frames aslong as you dont try to face tank steel path survival in melee on a squishy frame.