siriusvirt Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 Many players abuse the "Shield gate" mechanics using it with the "Decaying Key", creating immortal warframes. I suggest making a small change to the mechanics of the "Decaying Key" - so that it also disables the Shield gate. This will remove the abuse of Shield gate at high levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)haphazardlynamed Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 And why is this a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 Unless this interaction has changed, it isn't that failproof. Rolling guard does basically the same thing but better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siriusvirt Posted May 24, 2022 Author Share Posted May 24, 2022 The Decaying Key should weaken the player, not strengthen. In fact, this is a bug use. Warframe is already too easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siriusvirt Posted May 24, 2022 Author Share Posted May 24, 2022 Rolling guard" spends a slot and has a cooldown. 3 минуты назад, (PSN)max141064 сказал: Unless this interaction has changed, it isn't that failproof. Rolling guard does basically the same thing but better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, siriusvirt said: Rolling guard" spends a slot and has a cooldown. Shield gating needs to recharge fully your shield to work again and in a horde shooter where speed is everything it's not that important to change this effect since people still get downed pretty easily even with this effect. 5 minutes ago, siriusvirt said: The Decaying Key should weaken the player, not strengthen. In fact, this is a bug use. Warframe is already too light The keys give a penality, not "weaken the player". if players find a way to make it useful i call that being smart, maybe min-maxing too. this interaction is in the game since shield gating was introduced, if it was that much of a "bug" DE would've already changed it. Don't know what you mean with "Warframe is already too light"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 22 minutes ago, siriusvirt said: Many players abuse the "Shield gate" mechanics using it with the "Decaying Key", creating immortal warframes. I suggest making a small change to the mechanics of the "Decaying Key" - so that it also disables the Shield gate. This will remove the abuse of Shield gate at high levels. If you don't like it... Don't use it... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 12 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said: Unless this interaction has changed, it isn't that failproof. Rolling guard does basically the same thing but better.. Also Toxin Damage... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PollexMessier Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 How about you people shut up about nerfing stuff that doesn't negatively effect your own experience with the game? Other players on your team surviving is a benefit. If you don't like the mechanic then you can just not use it. It's not like aoe where a single player running around spamming it is going to make the mission unenjoyable for other players and hinder abilities that require enemies to exist to function. It's just a survival mechanic. What I'd like to see is any form of shield regen be % based. That would both solve this issue and make having more shields not be a negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyreaus Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 So, what about the Bleeding key with Champion's Blessing and Combat Discipline? It's a similar sort of "exploit" of an item meant to "weaken the player". If that combo is fine, it seems the issue isn't about the Decaying Key, but about shield gate mechanics / Augur mod sets - something on that side of the equation. We should also probably consider why players feel the need to lean on shield gate mechanics in the first place. Perhaps, like with the recent update to Operators, some Warframes need a bit of a boost to survivability in some fashion or another. Otherwise, sure, you can get rid of the Decaying key in the interaction, but what does the result look like? Do we get Hildryns everywhere at higher levels? If you want to talk about really easy and effectively immortal, do we end up relying on invisibility to stay alive? It's not just "everyone stops using shield gate", it has knock-on effects. Frankly, I think narrowing the viability scope does a disservice to the game. I don't use shield gate and lean on invisibility frames instead. It's a really narrow scope, and I'd love to have a comfortable build for Equinox instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said: So, what about the Bleeding key with Champion's Blessing and Combat Discipline? It's a similar sort of "exploit" of an item meant to "weaken the player". If that combo is fine, it seems the issue isn't about the Decaying Key, but about shield gate mechanics / Augur mod sets - something on that side of the equation. Or using the hobbled key on Volt, Wisp, Nezha... the Decaying on Inaros and Nidus since they have no shields... the bleeding on Mag and Hildryn... is that abusing a mechanic too? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyreaus Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said: Or using the hobbled key on Volt, Wisp, Nezha... the Decaying on Inaros and Nidus since they have no shields... the bleeding on Mag and Hildryn... is that abusing a mechanic too? lol TBF those don't really give benefits - they just have negligible or no downsides for those frames. Seems like OP's talking about the keys being beneficial in certain setups. Not that one couldn't still point at Inaros and Nidus and say "that's a bug, they shouldn't be able to use the Decaying key!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, Tyreaus said: Seems like OP's talking about the keys being beneficial in certain setups. i think the problem is exactly here. there is nothing about the keys being a mean to weaken the player... the keys give a penality, many games and players use penalities to their adventage. Hell...one easy example is D&D. There are thousands and thousands of way to make a penality being useful in there. it's just about how much a player knows about the game and how to make a penality something that will help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegidiusF Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 il y a une heure, siriusvirt a dit : Many players abuse the "Shield gate" mechanics using it with the "Decaying Key", creating immortal warframes. I suggest making a small change to the mechanics of the "Decaying Key" - so that it also disables the Shield gate. This will remove the abuse of Shield gate at high levels. No frame is immortal, even with shiled gating and Dacaying dragon key. Toxin damage bypasses shields and every faction has units capable of doing some high Toxin damage. And cast time can be mortal to any frame while shield gating. Even Hyldrin, with her improved shield gating and Toxin resistance while with overshields isn't immortal. Dragon keys are not really made to weaken the player, as they can always be equipped by frames not affected by them, and this was never a problem. Nidus, Inaros are not "weakened" by a Decaying dragon key. These keys were made to OPEN OROKIN VAULTS - this, and only this, is their goal. The penalty attached to each key can be avoided (or at least reduced) or even used to improve some game mechanics. I really don't see what's the problem with players using shield gate and Decaying dragon key. I don't like it, I don't use it, but if players like to use it to be able to reach high level (even cap level) missions, what's the problem ? Let them have fun ! (a game is supposed to let people have fun, by the way). They are not cheating, and this is not a glitch, just an in game well known mechanic (and, up to this date, almost the only way for some frames to reach very high level). Better than asking to remove shield gating when Decaying dragon key is equipped, ask for another option to survive on high level missions, letting you reach the cap level if you want. This way, nobody will use the Decaying dragon key method anymore. Perhaps the new Vazarin Guardian Break, that let you shield gate very easily, will replace the Dragon key. Just have fun and let others have fun. il y a 39 minutes, PollexMessier a dit : How about you people shut up about nerfing stuff that doesn't negatively effect your own experience with the game? So true ! il y a 39 minutes, Tyreaus a dit : I don't use shield gate and lean on invisibility frames instead. Totally agree and I do the same. Invisibility is much better than Shield Gating in my opinion. I even use a Banshee with Ivara's Quiver infusion, to spread Sonar and kill while under the protection of the invisibility bubble. It works nice, but it lacks mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)c1234567890alvi Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 vor 31 Minuten schrieb siriusvirt: Warframe is already too easy Yes, but I would argue that this problem is not rooted in the fact that Shield Gating is problematic, but because DE does not strive to make actual challenging/mechanic heavy content for obvious financial reasons. Every content is designed to be more or less accessible to everyone, veteran focused content is just not a thing, because well, veterans don't spend money on the game, they are not interesting as a player base. That being said, I am rarely a supporter of nerfs without a really good reason. AoE getting nerfed because the rest of our arsenal becomes obsolete due to Bramma and friends existing. We may talk about that (under the condition that the grind gets reduced, the reason for their excessive usage is that they massively cut down the time to complete missions). But Shield Gating with Decay Dragon Key getting nerfed? For what reason, except some elitist complaining the game has gotten too casual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siriusvirt Posted May 24, 2022 Author Share Posted May 24, 2022 I'm NOT suggesting to remove the Shield Gating, I'm only suggesting to slightly strengthen the debuffs from the Decay Dragon Key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, siriusvirt said: I'm only suggesting to slightly strengthen the debuffs from the Decay Dragon Key. the dubuff the Decaying key has is to reduce the maximum shield capacity, if you recude if even more it would mean that people will start recharging their full shield to the maximum even faster, making them REALLY unkillable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegidiusF Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 il y a 14 minutes, (PSN)c1234567890alvi a dit : That being said, I am rarely a supporter of nerfs without a really good reason. AoE getting nerfed because the rest of our arsenal becomes obsolete due to Bramma and friends existing. We may talk about that (under the condition that the grind gets reduced, the reason for their excessive usage is that they massively cut down the time to complete missions). I also agree. The high amount of time spent on mission to grind / famr stuuf is, in my opinion, the reason AoE is very often used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)haphazardlynamed Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 32 minutes ago, siriusvirt said: I'm NOT suggesting to remove the Shield Gating, I'm only suggesting to slightly strengthen the debuffs from the Decay Dragon Key. I wouldn't mind a debuff that removes 100% of my shields I could "exploit" that for my Rage/Hunter Adrenaline builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeckChairVonBananaCamel Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 56 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said: the dubuff the Decaying key has is to reduce the maximum shield capacity, if you recude if even more it would mean that people will start recharging their full shield to the maximum even faster, making them REALLY unkillable. @siriusvirt is suggesting that shield gating gets removed by the decaying key. Not to remove the shield gate entirely in all scenarios, only when the decaying key is applied. Not to make the percent shield loss worse. They are suggesting to strengthen the debuff by adding shield-gate removal into the mix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 17 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said: is suggesting that shield gating gets removed by the decaying key. Not to remove the shield gate entirely in all scenarios, only when the decaying key is applied. Not to make the percent shield loss worse. They are suggesting to strengthen the debuff by adding shield-gate removal into the mix Either way we spin it...it still doesn't make any sense. Does this make people compleatly unkillable? no. Does this ruin their game experience? no. Does this ruin everyone elses game experience? no. Is this mechanic overused so much that has become a "meta"? no. as @PollexMessier already stated... 2 hours ago, PollexMessier said: How about you people shut up about nerfing stuff that doesn't negatively effect your own experience with the game? this is literally a non-issue but we're asking for a nerf/change because of.....? someone using the dragon key in a smart way? because we feel less smart than this player? we can't even call it "exploit" since we STILL HAVE TO RECHARGE FULLY OUR SHIELDS TO REACTIVATE THE SHIELD GATING. and this trick can help us untill a certain point, i want to see these people using this single dragon key system as the only mean of survivability...i'd love to see how many seconds they stay up in SP or "harder" content than the normal starchart. As usual...asking for nerfs is rarely the solution with this stuff. especially if we talk about frames, buffs are the solutions. other systems are the solution. new mods are the solution. new systems all together are the solution. not taking away stuff because....i have no idea, since OP still has not give us a reason on why this thing is ruining the game or their experience with the game itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 How does people not dying affect you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivy Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 4 hours ago, siriusvirt said: The Decaying Key should weaken the player, not strengthen. In fact, this is a bug use. Warframe is already too easy This is not a bug, this is a feature 🤦♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fo3nixz Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 un equip the key then? or is it i dont want it, u cant have it. is it also abuse if i use ivara & headshots mostly if i combine with xata? LOL disclaimer: i never use a key on 9999 endurance solo's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeckChairVonBananaCamel Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 1 hour ago, (PSN)max141064 said: snip Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily agree with the change I just cant stand ideas (good or bad) being shot down due to a potential misunderstanding. Though I do think I understand where OP is coming from, it's not a specific gameplay issue but a concept issue instead. OP no doubt assumes DE intended the dragon keys to be only a risk/reward situation, where equipping a dragon key would bestow something that is 100% a downside for the chance to get access to something good. (see counter point at the very bottom of this comment) The issue (conceptually) comes when one of the keys can be abused in a way that allows it to be turned into something that is essentially a buff. As for HOW it is abused? I'm not someone who takes advantage of this myself so I don't know how to push it to its extremes, but I do know the basics. Shield gating fully protects you for 1.3s if your shields are allowed to fully recharge between depletions. A single Brief Respite turns 50 energy spent into 75 shields, when combined with the decaying key this means an instant full recharge for well over half of the warframes. Combine with the augur set (minus accord) and 50 energy is more than enough to fully charge all but 1 warframe (excluding 0 shield frames, obviously). I keep mentioning 50 energy because Molt is subsumable, and has zero cast time Rolling guard allows you to further extend your invulnerability by 3 seconds, buying extra time for dropping an energy/shield pizza or regaining shields another way. With the above, ive seen people basically make themselves unkillable, and is a viable method of survival vs lv9999 enemies Here is a quick vid explaining it a bit better: Spoiler Now, that being said there are 2 big counters to OP's feedback that i dont see others mentioning here (unless i skimmed something) 1. it is not a no-skill tanking method, and requires a fair bit of tlc and situational awareness to maintain. 2. DE themselves have said that abusing the shield gating via decaying dragon keys is 100% endorsed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)haphazardlynamed Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 I wouldn't mind an Alternative to the dragon key.... how about a new corrupted mod that does: -50% shields, +50% shield regen rate? make the whole thing "official" (isn't there a RailJack shield house that basically does this?, they have lower max but faster regen?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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