Abuse of the "Shield gate" mechanics

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

7 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

There is nothing non intended on the Shield Gate + Dragon Key method.

The key that is supposed to be detrimental is actually beneficial on most frames. How does that not seem unintentional?

7 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

That's DE actual position : they did not say it's a bad thing, they did not say it's a good thing and, at the same time, they did nothing to fix it, they just let players use it. And, please, do not say they are too busy with other things, because when something is a real problem, they fix it in less than 24 hours. If they wanted, Shield Gating + Daceying Key would not be possible anymore.

People thought the same thing about Chroma's old Vex Armor and Gladiator mods on Helios: Those bugs existed for years, people took advantage of them, thought they were intentional, and DE then finally fixed them. Just so you know, there's been an exploit to easily get tons of damage on hitscan weapons using Chroma's Elemental Ward and Xaku's Xata's Whisper; it has existed since Heart of Deimos, and some forms of it before then. These examples prove that DE is slow about bug fixing, and that you can't assume their feelings about it by lack of action. 

The Decaying Dragon Key is going to get fixed eventually: It might take months or years, but it's quite clearly a product of universal changes having unintended side effects on existing content.

[B.P.Emma]

[deleted]

[B.P.Emma]

22 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm totally up for DE tweaking Decaying keys so that they're not a survivability asset, but it should come with suitable replacements.  And/or major improvements to shield tanking generally. And/or an overhaul to the huge spread between the tankiest and squishiest frames.

Exactly this.

Well that's not true, lol.  Yeah, there are plenty of challenges with taking a frame like Banshee into SP, but let's not act like they're completely insurmountable.  Really good players were taking Quick Thinking Banshee into ultra high level content before shield gating (or Helminth) was a thing.  And for 10 minutes of SP, [ Vitality + Constant Movement + Awareness + Not Being Drunk ] is enough for me.  (Sometimes barely enough :P )

i dont think youd disagree though if i said needing to rely on things like quick thinking or gloom isnt particularly fun right? sadly warframe sinply isnt a skillbased game, so awarness and movement obviously play roles, but lets not pretend this is doom. eventually youll be caught off guard by some toxin eximus you couldnt see behind the 50 chargers, wholl pull you in and usually 1shot you before you can even move again, or if youre using quick thinking, die after having all your energy drained, survive if lucky. eventually the enemies will just track and hit you regardless of how efficiently youre moving, not to mention having to do all that on top of fight the stalker, some of which can simply mag bubble you, and qt/vitality or not, you simply die to that unless you can pull off some miraculous operator trickery. thats just how the game works, and you even said yourself its barely enough for a mere 10 minutes

shield gating, intentional or not on des part, exist as a symptom of a way too punishing endgame. removing shield gating exploits wont fix the problem its a symptom of, and if anything itll just make it worse as it removes 1 more option people currently have to not get evaporated. in the meantime its best to just let people do their thing. if you dont like shield gating, dont do it. i dont- partly because i dont play sp much, but as my glyph and name implies im a heavy octavia main. i dont need it haha

we should advocate for fixing the problem, not the symptom (first). unrelated though: warframe being a 3rd person doom would be a dream come true 😇

[Tiltskillet]

23 minutes ago, B.P.Emma said:

i dont think youd disagree though if i said needing to rely on things like quick thinking or gloom isnt particularly fun right?

I don't depend on Gloom either, or any subsumed ability, for that matter.  Breach Surge is nice, but I don't have it injected on every Banshee build, and even when I do it frequently goes unused.

As for QT, I'm not specifically recommending it now for Banshee.  But....

26 minutes ago, B.P.Emma said:

sadly warframe sinply isnt a skillbased game, so awarness and movement obviously play roles, but lets not pretend this is doom.

...I don't think you can have it both ways.  If it's not a skillbased game (for you) and it's not a modding game, what exactly is it?   It's definitely not turn-based, I know that!  :P

30 minutes ago, B.P.Emma said:

and you even said yourself its barely enough for a mere 10 minutes

Well, I wasn't being  serious about that, although I do occasionally die in 2, 5, or 10 minutes.  Practically speaking, when I'm actually concentrating, it's enough for 45 minutes for me without any deaths.  It's extremely tense at that point and I don't play anything longer than that, although I suspect more skilled players could go far longer.   Because they did before shield gating existed or the existence of Rolling Guard or before Banshee got her extra 60 armor or whatever it was.

And I wasn't talking about repeatedly dying there.  One death, almost always when I get careless.  Is there a harsh death penalty in this game?  lol, hell no.

1 hour ago, B.P.Emma said:

we should advocate for fixing the problem, not the symptom (first). 

If you read my entire reply to you, you already know I basically agree.   Although I'd say it would make a lot of sense for DE to address the symptom at the same time as the underlying issues. 

[iPathos]

On 2022-05-24 at 8:38 PM, siriusvirt said:

I'm NOT suggesting to remove the Shield Gating, I'm only suggesting to slightly strengthen the debuffs from the Decay Dragon Key.

Deal with it. It takes a fair amount of specific setup and management to even utilize that setup while very much also bringing your window of vulnerability far closer.

Don't like it? Don't use it. It's far from necessary outside of long endurance or specific steel path instances anyhow.

[rhoenix]

Hang on - the entire issue here is the presupposition that adding a Decaying Dragon Key makes one immortal.

Yes, it can allow warframes with no vitality mods to survive in high level content - but how?  The how is based on the very short invulnerability window you get when your shields pop, based on maximum shield strength - which the Decaying Key reduces the maximum of.  In essence, it works because your frame has less shields to refill after being broken.

Okay.  So how does this work in places not the simulacrum?  Does doing this make you actually invincible?  I'm sure you may have seen some people on Youtube doing this, but have any of you who are objecting to this personally tested it?  What were the results in a 1-hour Survival or Disruption with and without the Decaying shield gate setup?

 

[iPathos]

5 minutes ago, rhoenix said:

Hang on - the entire issue here is the presupposition that adding a Decaying Dragon Key makes one immortal.

The entire premise of the thread is based on the OP noticing that people are turning the Decaying Dragon Key's negative effect into a net positive via utilizing its maximum shield reduction in their usage of the shield gate.

Which - as has been stated ad infinitum - is not an automatic effect and requires energy management (both use and to regain), specific mods/setups, timing and/or practice.

I don't think anyone's under the impression that equipping it makes one immortal, just that it's an overreaction by one player to other players making a bad thing into a good thing. Same thing happens every day, negative IPS stats on rivens to adjust status distribution, as said before using the Bleeding Dragon Key with Champion's Blessing Trinity. All require a fair degree of setup or management in one way or another.

[rhoenix]

1 minute ago, iPathos said:

The entire premise of the thread is based on the OP noticing that people are turning the Decaying Dragon Key's negative effect into a net positive via utilizing its maximum shield reduction in their usage of the shield gate.

Which - as has been stated ad infinitum - is not an automatic effect and requires energy management (both use and to regain), specific mods/setups, timing and/or practice.

I don't think anyone's under the impression that equipping it makes one immortal, just that it's an overreaction by one player to other players making a bad thing into a good thing. Same thing happens every day, negative IPS stats on rivens to adjust status distribution, as said before using the Bleeding Dragon Key with Champion's Blessing Trinity. All require a fair degree of setup or management in one way or another.

It may have been me misreading the thread here from others, but what you stated in the post was my understanding.    I don't use Decaying Key mechanic myself, but I don't see an issue with other players using it to survive high-level play - however, I was concerned there was an impression that this was somehow an exploit.

[Vahenir]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

So you created a bigger issue that you know doesn't have a solution?

The solution is to balance enemy damage properly along with making sure all frames can actually survive without the tanky ones becoming entirely immortal. In either case its an idea that could solve the current shield gate cheese, but no matter how that is solved the currently weaker frames end up with major trouble in higher level stuff. Putting the shield gate on a timer will solve the whole thing with the dragon key making frames immortal while also making the shield gate equally good on high shield strength builds. 

[BDMblue]

On 2022-05-24 at 12:29 AM, siriusvirt said:

Many players abuse the "Shield gate" mechanics using it with the "Decaying Key", creating immortal warframes.

I suggest making a small change to the mechanics of the "Decaying Key" - so that it also disables the Shield gate. This will remove the abuse of Shield gate at high levels.

I agree. It just bugs me that we want - to stats. I would just make shields go from 0-100% over a set time. 10000 shields or 10 would take the same charge time. Powers that boost shields or give them should be also limited by how much shields you have. Power str and your max shields should effect your gain by power.

I want this change so max level is somewhat hard to get to. Normal content this won’t change anything, but let’s fix the joke of going to level 9999 and being fine.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

28 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

The solution is to balance enemy damage properly along with making sure all frames can actually survive without the tanky ones becoming entirely immortal. In either case its an idea that could solve the current shield gate cheese, but no matter how that is solved the currently weaker frames end up with major trouble in higher level stuff. Putting the shield gate on a timer will solve the whole thing with the dragon key making frames immortal while also making the shield gate equally good on high shield strength builds. 

It's not a solution if you don't have any details. It's an empty slogan.

If you have the magical formula for DE then I'm sure they'd love to hear it.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Suggestion doesn't go far enough. Such exploiters are used to dodging the intended and natural consequences, so in order to punish them appropriately, you need to make them experience the consequences more thoroughly. Like maybe DE can make the Decaying Key actually Decay peoples organic body materials, in real life? Really teach them a lesson. Can't shield gate and abuse the system, if your hand is rotting and about to fall off, and your vision fails you because of permanent retina degradation! Try and shield gate that, hah, gottem. 

 

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

3 hours ago, rhoenix said:

Hang on - the entire issue here is the presupposition that adding a Decaying Dragon Key makes one immortal.

Yes, it can allow warframes with no vitality mods to survive in high level content - but how?  The how is based on the very short invulnerability window you get when your shields pop, based on maximum shield strength - which the Decaying Key reduces the maximum of.  In essence, it works because your frame has less shields to refill after being broken.

Okay.  So how does this work in places not the simulacrum?  Does doing this make you actually invincible?  I'm sure you may have seen some people on Youtube doing this, but have any of you who are objecting to this personally tested it?  What were the results in a 1-hour Survival or Disruption with and without the Decaying shield gate setup?

 

This video explains how it works, with gameplay of lv9999 kuva grineer in disruption.

Spoiler

 

you can find longer videos if you wish

[rhoenix]

22 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

This video explains how it works, with gameplay of lv9999 kuva grineer in disruption.

you can find longer videos if you wish

Yes, I'm aware of KnightmareFrame's videos.  As I said earlier:

3 hours ago, rhoenix said:

I'm sure you may have seen some people on Youtube doing this, but have any of you who are objecting to this personally tested it?  What were the results in a 1-hour Survival or Disruption with and without the Decaying shield gate setup?

I ask this because I have tested it, after seeing that video, in fact.  With 3 total 1 hour Survival missions, running solo, on the Steel Path.  And after having done so, my conclusion was that it was a neat trick, but not an exploit.  It was also not the playstyle I enjoyed.

So, to reiterate - what testing did you perform, and what were your conclusions?

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

On 2022-05-24 at 3:48 AM, (PSN)max141064 said:

this interaction is in the game since shield gating was introduced, if it was that much of a "bug" DE would've already changed it. 

Just because DE hasn't fixed something after several years doesn't mean it's not a bug. Mastery test 24 had a bug for around 4-5 years before they finally fixed it.  Often it's because they don't know what's causing it and/or it's very low priority.  Players "abusing" shield gating with a Decaying key?  Super low priority I imagine.

[cute_moth.npc]

It doesn't wreck the game for other players like limitless ammo AoE spawn spam lol. 

It just makes Warframe easier from the perspective of the player using it, and they can always go play something tankier anyways?

They have bigger problems to fix honestly.

[cute_moth.npc]

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Suggestion doesn't go far enough. Such exploiters are used to dodging the intended and natural consequences, so in order to punish them appropriately, you need to make them experience the consequences more thoroughly. Like maybe DE can make the Decaying Key actually Decay peoples organic body materials, in real life? Really teach them a lesson. Can't shield gate and abuse the system, if your hand is rotting and about to fall off, and your vision fails you because of permanent retina degradation! Try and shield gate that, hah, gottem. 

 

You won't believe all of the places you'll bleed from after trying the bleeding key! The extinguishing key seems safe but is known to cause cancer if you weren't actually on fire when you equipped it! 

[vanaukas]

I'll bring the popcorns when they finally address it, because the meltdown will be unreal

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

27 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

You won't believe all of the places you'll bleed from after trying the bleeding key! The extinguishing key seems safe but is known to cause cancer if you weren't actually on fire when you equipped it! 

 

Hehe.

Extinguished Key won't just cause all your light bulbs and light sources to be extinguished, but the spark of joy within you is now also Extinguished as well. Extinguished Key now guarantees a Depression Proc! 

Seems like Corrupted Mods are going to rise in value if such changes ever go through to live! 

[Marvelous_A]

I have an issue not with the shield gate itself but the weirdarse interaction that having less shield = more survivability.

It doesn't make sense and shouldn't happen because that's not how hitpoint is supposed to work.

It has to change and providing ways to increase shield efficiency would be a good place to start.

For Decaying Dragon Key it should also scale down shield recharge rate by 75% when equipped so that players cannot exploit the reduced shield cap for more shield gate.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 24.5.2022 um 09:29 schrieb siriusvirt:

Many players abuse the "Shield gate" mechanics using it with the "Decaying Key", creating immortal warframes.

I suggest making a small change to the mechanics of the "Decaying Key" - so that it also disables the Shield gate. This will remove the abuse of Shield gate at high levels.

good joke. and have fun on arbitration with causal gear, where sausages warframes like wisp constantly shot down despite cc from new eximus.

there is a complete lack of knowledge and experience here.

p.s.: even wukong has to constantly use his 2nd skill on sp, because he keeps going down despite usable armor.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb Marvelous_A:

I have an issue not with the shield gate itself but the weirdarse interaction that having less shield = more survivability.

It doesn't make sense and shouldn't happen because that's not how hitpoint is supposed to work.

It has to change and providing ways to increase shield efficiency would be a good place to start.

For Decaying Dragon Key it should also scale down shield recharge rate by 75% when equipped so that players cannot exploit the reduced shield cap for more shield gate.

is that meant seriously?
test with and without........ WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

[taiiat]

you'd get more out of it by Shield Capacity offering a benefit too. rather than adding Shield Capacity generally being superfluous and ineffective, thesedays.

there aren't enough reasons to spec towards Shields on almost every Warframe, therefore People don't mind speccing away from them and in this case finding a way to spec away from Shields to end up helping them a bit.

[(PSN)Darkrya]

      The Decaying Key effect is definitely not as egregious as "AoE spam + Primed Sure Footed" meta. But that doesn't mean it's something that should be kept in the game as it is, I agree with the OP's suggestion, simply remove shield gating when the key is equipped. This is not, and should not be an intend feature,

     You should want to have more shields on your frame not less, anything that promotes the opposite is stupid. Unless you're a frame that takes advantage of having less shields, like a rage build. Ideally at that point you should be building for Armor, Health, Evasions %, or even abilities that reduce damage. Shield Gating was made so you wouldn't get one shot from across the map, it's not a constant second chance, it's a "Pay-Attention, you almost died" mechanic. 

      Really this problem stems from another unlooked at system in WF. Scalability. I know they've done changes in the past, with the armor and shield changes, it helped a little, but it didn't really solve the crucial problem. As things get more "difficult" (i.e enemies gain levels, and more eximis spawn) in Warframe, it tends to eliminate a lot of builds/playstyles. Traditional Tanks cannot take advantage of their tankiness, because enemies do too much damage, basically one-shotting you, the same with damage.

     The game expects you to constantly kill the same enemies whether you're at LvL 100 in a survival, or Lvl 9999 without actually considering how much damage output you can apply to enemies, whom get an atrocious amount of armor/health at higher levels. So anyone without actual armor strip (which is 90% of most builds), or percentile based damage won't do enough to continue.

     Level Cap is kind of a joke representation of Warframe, it's like an extra extra challenge mode, so we really shouldn't balance the game around there, in my opinion somewhere between LVL150-LVL300 seems fine. These these values really force you into your role, which is really what End-Game/Difficult content is about, locking down a gameplay, and mastering a playstyle.  Not everyone needs a armor strip, evasion bonus, percentile damage, high armor values to stay alive/do damage, but DE definitely needs to tweak some playstyles to be more viable than they are, like Chroma's AoE Tank Buff/Elemental Affliction role,Hydroids Hyper AoE/Disruptive Role, or Valkyr's High Momentum Berzerker/Agro Draw role. 

 

 

[Pizzarugi]

Not everybody wants, or should have, to play Revenant in order to be an immortal tank frame, OP. I don't see what's wrong with utilizing shield gating to be tougher in higher level content. It allows naturally squishy frames to have a stronger presence and not get obliterated by a couple shots.