The impact AoE nerf could have

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Alternatively, can we even trust this so called Pablo? Maybe thats not even his real name? He hasn't shown us his Math degree, so maybe he can't count, or maybe he read the chart upside down, and Wukong is actually the least played Warframe, with little retention, and actually needs big buffs, because Pablo read and interpreted the whole thing upside and wrong and didn't question he was misunderstanding and other assumptions I am going to randomly throw at out into the ether. 

[-EPECb-]

14 минут назад, TheArmchairThinker сказал:

If my friend knows about this, he'll slap you because I've seen his Nyx and it's an absolute killer capable of shrugging status effects like nothing while dishing damage

This does not negate the fact that this frame is nowhere to be seen (look at the statistics). I'm happy for your friend and good luck to him. Your "absolute killers" are sleeping somewhere at the bottom, because they can't compare to those who are more popular at this moment.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

DE plz ignore everyone but me, and instead fix the lack of booties on some Warframes. 

I don't need new bugs, butts or new content. I need big shiny badonka donks, metallic steel dump trucks, thicc Orokin polished cakes, wibbly wobbly double cheeked up techno organic paddy wagons, chunky monkey Clemtastic Doma Thumpers, Primed Globes, Kuva Kabooses, Tax breaking Corpus Callipygians! Take care of balancing the butts in your game! Some butts are too flat, its imbalanced! 

What's up with Hydroid? His Deluxe skin was a good start, but he a pirate, but he got no booty? Nyx? More like sticks! Why doesn't Saryn know how to twerk? She got burgers but no shake?! Why? Its scientifically implausible. Logically inconsistent. Wukong?There are two of him, but he only has enough glute maxs for one! I have no words. Followed, by more words! If you can't add more paddy to his wagon, then just let Grendel eat him! 

Think about what you've done to this game! Players leave your project. They go to Geshin or FF online! They even have 2B booty in that last one! We need more junk in this yard. Metaphoric junk... as in ass. Literal junk would be rubbish, and empty dinner trays, and dirty syringes and like you know.. junk! 

[Tiltskillet]

40 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Once again , errors can exist , but based on my experience , every time I connect to a public squad i have a 60% chance of meeting a monkey with a cannon. So it's not that far fetched for me at least.

It's not that extreme for me, but it's similar.   The only frames I nearly always see one of in a squad, and the only frames I often see more than one of, are Wukong, Wisp, and (right now) Khora.  And Wukong noticeably more than Wisp.  (Although I feel like she's gradually catching up.)

54 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also , it's not a spectre per se , It's the "celestial twin" that is the ability under use.

However, I do believe the specter usage bug exists, and while I don't have proof the Twin is a factor in that, I've got some evidence.  If you use a specter  in a mission, it and the weapons it uses will accumulate statistics in your profile.  And if I do a mission entirely  in melee mode with Wukong so that the Twin is forced to use my sidearm (Talons in this case), my usage, kills, and kill assists with the sidearm go up.

Before Mission / After Mission

Usage: 1% / 1.1%

XP: 6592889 / 6600483

Kills: 4808 / 4892

Assists: 424 / 442

Again, not proof, but I think it's persuasive.  If the clone's weapon usage is impacting stats, it seems less of a  stretch to suggest the Twin's usage is affecting Wukong's usage than that it isn't.

_{Anyway, my main takeaway from this is I hope the Twin isn't nerfed too hard.  Because  the Celestial Twin Talons Space Program is just too much fun!}

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

More seriously though, its kind of hard to filter through the issues you have. I agree with some of your points but disagree with others. 

I already use the Tiberon a lot for example. Why? Because I find it more fun than the Bramma. Thats why some people chose not to use the Bramma, because they value their fun and satisfaction with other weapons. You have to be careful about the claims you make, as far as your own personal preferences, and how others play. Which to be clear, doesn't mean you shouldn't criticise a weapon, like say the Bramma, just be aware that such criticism will tend to exist. Like you know, when melee, was criticised a lot, when maiming strike whip builds were etc. 

To put it another way, DE could do everything you would personally want, and in 8 months, someone will still make a thread like this, and your supposed game fixing changes and ideas, won't matter to them. 

Game balance is unsurprisingly hard and isn't just solved the way you imply, with such fixes, which seem heavily rooted around and articulated like preference. 

 

I can sympathise with being unhappy. Maybe, you just need a break from Warframe? 

Often when we play a game too much, we start to get frustrated with stuff we find annoying. Taking a break, we can come back after a new update and have new stuff to focus on. If that new stuff isn't appealing, then maybe a longer break is needed. If that doesn't help? 

Maybe Warframe isn't the right game, and its time to move on? As sad as that might be.

[Corvid]

50 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And how often this "balance" end up with imbalanced enemies as "boss" with nonsensical stat you usually end up pigeonholed into meta build because going off means you might take much longer to finish if not failing?

I'm not going to enjoy that 30 minutes to fight a boss while trying to stay alive with my team. I saw some thread about spending 3 hours just to chip away a boss health in FF14. Yeah no

Try actually reading the post before you post this nonsensical hyperbole next time.

[-EPECb-]

19 минут назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

Because I find it more fun than the Bramma.

"Funny" does not mean "effective". Beginners will not take Tiberon for fun, they will take Bramma and then everything will just get boring because it real boring. This is called an imbalance

 

19 минут назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

Game balance is unsurprisingly hard and isn't just solved the way you imply, with such fixes, which seem heavily rooted around and articulated like preference. 

Not "preferences", but the inevitable META! These are different things.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, -EPECb- said:

"Funny" does not mean "effective". Beginners will not take Tiberon for fun, they will take Bramma and then everything will just get boring because it will get boring. This is called an imbalance

 

Fun. Effective as well as fun can be relative and involve degrees of subjectivity. Like it depends on ones goal, different goals can mean different degrees of effectiveness. As a beginner and as a MRL2 I use the Tiberon a fair bit. Its more satisfying to go for skill shots, head shots, etc for me, than indiscriminate bombing runs with Bramma. So I reject your claim. Now if you are saying you find it personally boring thats fine and valid. 

Now based on that above, I call into question whether you have credibility in discussing ideas around balance and imbalance. Its easy to say stuff. Imbalance is an elephant. Is it actually though? 

 

5 minutes ago, -EPECb- said:

Not "preferences", but the inevitable META! These are different things.

What you say here doesn't address what I wrote. If you think a weapon is boring, thats preference. 

[-EPECb-]

On 2022-08-10 at 7:36 AM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Fun. Effective as well as fun can be relative and involve degrees of subjectivity. Like it depends on ones goal, different goals can mean different degrees of effectiveness. As a beginner and as a MRL2 I use the Tiberon a fair bit. Its more satisfying to go for skill shots, head shots, etc for me, than indiscriminate bombing runs with Bramma. So I reject your claim. Now if you are saying you find it personally boring thats fine and valid. 

 

... you're a solo player apparently. Because I almost always do not have time to aim the heads of enemies... they are simply annihilated with all those guns that are hitting the square.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

On 2022-08-10 at 7:42 AM, -EPECb- said:

... you're a solo player apparently. Because I almost always do not have time to aim the heads of enemies... they are simply annihilated with all those guns that are hitting the square.

 

I solo sometimes, but not exclusively. I also play with friends, and pubs a lot too. Depends what content you like too, and what you enjoy doing, and being mindful of other people in your group. AOE can fall off in effectiveness or purpose in certain game modes. Like Steel Path Disruption, Interception etc and or if you are fast enough in Capture and Extermination missions, your team mates can't catch up, you get a lot of time to hit heads. Same with Survival and moving around a lot, knowing enemy spawn locations better than team mates etc 

 

On 2022-08-10 at 7:42 AM, -EPECb- said:

...and not only my conclusions about this weapon. If the information has already reached the DE themselves, then this is really an unbalanced weapon. And now they will fix it in the end.

 

Sure, as it won't be the first time they have. My point is, if you were in charge of DE, people like you, are still going to make posts like this, and expect you to fix stuff, and wonder why you haven't done it sooner. Talking about specifics in context is more meaningful than just claiming stuff is boring and imbalanced. It may well be, but not all players have the same issues to the same degrees. A lot of us, on forums, myself included, don't realise, often we are a vocal minority. 

 

On 2022-08-10 at 7:45 AM, -EPECb- said:

Don't be so serious we're just discussing a "video game".

 

What makes you think I am being too serious? I am having a relaxing afternoon and enjoying this discussion. If I can be so candid, you seem a bit more irritated, because you are using more frustrated language and generalisations. 

Also generally, on internet forums, some people think of they accuse or imply someone else of being "too serious" it will make them seem more chilled and relaxed. Except anyone who has any experience with online forums, tends to spot this as a type of compensation technique. Basically the fastest way to make others think you are being too serious? Is to accuse someone else of being too serious. Its like the whole "You Mad/U Mad thing too" 

How about this? I think you are alright and not too serious? You can consider me, chill too, just prone to talking a lot, but thats more enthusiasm than anything else. I just like Warframe and videogames. I also like single target weapons and think its funny when people suggest no one uses them. Phantasma, Tenora Prime, Tiberon, Trumna, Daikyu, Quellor, Stahlta, Kuva Hek... so many many fun weapons that are satisfying to use. You do not have to use Bramma or Zarr if you think they are boring, especially if it makes you think the whole game is boring. Being critical of them is also fine too!

[Veridian]

It's obvious how the concept of "power fantasy" is explored in Warframe.

Currently we have a trend with every new content bumping the level of enemies, couple that with the supposed AoE nerf and we may have ourselves a more balanced experience down the line. Anything other than that would feel like a shift in the tone of the game. I certainly wouldn't mind a boss or a node here and there that provide a good challenge, but at this point changing the entire game is a little short of impossible.

As for Wukong, spectre adding to usage aside, I have my doubts he's being used so much because of his spectre, since it's rather unreliable. It's his relative tankiness and cloud walker which I believe are his selling point and I don't see how (and why) his mobility should see a nerf.

O.T. a bit, but there is nothing in this game that implies it's survival horror. After all, they're stuck in there with me. But survival really needs an overhaul, imo. Currently our only concern being life support doesn't make for a very engaging experience. In fact it's one I actively try to avoid. Just for survival, reduce ammo drops, bump up the spawn rate and the level increase rate, heck, throw mobs that 1shot us and we need to avoid until they despawn. I'd take anything at this point other than watching the timer go up.

[-EPECb-]

10 минут назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

Sure, as it won't be the first time they have. My point is, if you were in charge of DE, people like you, are still going to make posts like this, and expect you to fix stuff, and wonder why you haven't done it sooner. Talking about specifics in context is more meaningful than just claiming stuff is boring and imbalanced. It may well be, but not all players have the same issues to the same degrees. A lot of us, on forums, myself included, don't realise, often we are a vocal minority. 

The material is really boring and unbalanced. If people leave this project, then there is something to think about. DE operates with statistics and not reviews on the forum as a rule. And they finally looked into these statistics. It's about time!

I know they won't hear us here... this is normal for such a project. The main thing is that they have realized their mistakes and will correct them soon (hopefully).

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, -EPECb- said:

I know they won't hear us here...

 

Maybe if you focus your mental energy really hard!

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, Veridian said:

O.T. a bit, but there is nothing in this game that implies it's survival horror.

I'm sure Loza was just using that genre as an example, not saying this game is in that genre.

[-EPECb-]

 

On 2022-08-10 at 7:57 AM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Also generally, on internet forums, some people think of they accuse or imply someone else of being "too serious" it will make them seem more chilled and relaxed. Except anyone who has any experience with online forums, tends to spot this as a type of compensation technique. Basically the fastest way to make others think you are being too serious? Is to accuse someone else of being too serious. Its like the whole "You Mad/U Mad thing too" 

 

Dude, relax. You're more serious than me right now. I told you... I dumped into this topic everything that I has boiled over about the game in recent years and that's all. You can create your own topic and describe your thoughts about this project. It is ok.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Just now, -EPECb- said:

Dude, relax. You're more serious than me right now. I told you... I dumped into this topic everything that I has boiled over about the game in recent years and that's all. You can create your own topic and describe your thoughts about this project. It is ok.

 

You are doing it again. Telling people they are taking things too seriously and need to relax is a kind of projection. 

I am relaxed. I get you can't tell my tone through text, just like i can't tell your tone through text. Thing is, you created this thread and not everyone has agreed with you, So at times you seem defensive. Which is understandable. Its not personal though. 

You telling me to create my own topic just because I don't agree with you... makes you seem like you are the one taking this too seriously. Again, I am not accusing you of taking it too seriously, but most people would just be fine with disagreeing. 

Does that make sense to you? Do you get what I mean? Can we stop the whole magical telepath, I know your mood thing?

[CrownOfShadows]

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Definitely not confirmation bias or anything. I shouldn't have to explain why an outlier that big is very likely wrong in some way. Or should I just counter with "I see Wisp almost just as much, why isn't she right beside Wukong?"?

22 minutes ago, Veridian said:

As for Wukong, spectre adding to usage aside, I have my doubts he's being used so much because of his spectre, since it's rather unreliable. It's his relative tankiness and cloud walker which I believe are his selling point and I don't see how (and why) his mobility should see a nerf.

I'd be willing to bet more people use wisp specters than wukong specters.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I'd be willing to bet more people use wisp specters than wukong specters.

 

Body pillows too! Though only because the Wukong body pillow can't create a secondary clone body pillow! 

[-EPECb-]

27 минут назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

Telling people they are taking things too seriously and need to relax is a kind of projection. 

Ok ok. Why not? Let it be exactly so, whatever that means.

22 минуты назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

you seem defensive.

Explaining your thoughts is normal. I don't see any protection here. Or do you think I should have silently agreed with what I can't agree with? 

You're getting off topic. Although I don't mind, because I want as many people as possible to see this topic. And so MAYBE DE will notice this topic.

29 минут назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

You telling me to create my own topic just because I don't agree with you

Not obligatory. Any opinions will suit me. After all, when creating a topic, you know in advance that there will be both those who disagree with it and those who agree. It is ok. I just thought that you took this topic too seriously, so I suggested that you create your own where you will only praise everything that I don't like and it's even possible that there will be more people in your topic who will discuss it than in mine. It will be more popular. Don't take my words seriously, we're really just discussing a video game. If you are really calm, then it is very good. As you said, I can't see you and I can't read your emotions.

 

35 минут назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

Can we stop the whole magical telepath...?

...it's up to you )

I have free time now and I'm not in a hurry.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Just now, -EPECb- said:

Ok ok. Why not? Let it be exactly so, whatever that means.

 

Projection. Its to do with psychology. It can be done subconsciously, and is often done defensively. If our ego feels a certain way, we might deny the discomfort, irritation, anger, sensitivity we personally feel, as it can be uncomfortable, and then we will seek it in those who we feel defensive against, and attribute the characteristic or feeling to them instead. 

So as a general example, lets say there is a boxing match. Boxer 1, lets call them Atlas. Boxer 2 is Wukong. 

Atlas: "Wukong, nobody plays you, your passive is the worst, you are just a pile of rubble!"
Wukong: "Ahh... maybe? I don't know man, we can have a good, clean, friendly, respectful boxing match okay?"
Atlas: "Why so serious Wukong, you scared brah? U Mad? You wish you had my playrate? You gonna go Ape on me bro?"
Wukong: "... are you okay Atlas?"
Atlas: "My Kubrow died! Sorry man, I am just upset and projecting!"
Wukong: "S'okay bro, I'm here for you!"

Some of Atlas comments are projection. Its always worth remembering before you accuse anyone of anything, is to take a moment and think? Am I projecting? Should I be empathetic and understanding? Or accusatory? If I am accusatory that might escalate the situation. If I am empathetic, I might be able to defuse the situation. 

 

10 minutes ago, -EPECb- said:

Explaining your thoughts is normal. I don't see any protection here.

 

Projection and protection are different things. 

 

10 minutes ago, -EPECb- said:

Or do you think I should have silently agreed with what I can't agree with? 

 

Nothing like that, just try not to assume other peoples moods, and or be willing to look for clarification (which you did below, thank you!). 

 

12 minutes ago, -EPECb- said:

I just thought that you took this topic too seriously, so I suggested that you create your own where you will only praise everything that I don't like and it's even possible that there will be more people in your topic who will discuss it than in mine. It will be more popular. Don't take my words seriously, we're really just discussing a video game. If you are really calm, then it is very good. As you said, I can't see you and I can't read your emotions.

 

Thank you. I appreciate you acknowledging this and clarifying. I don't have the urge to praise things randomly. I also don't disagree with everything you said, I agree with bits and pieces, and thats where some of my criticism lays. Since refining and articulating an argument well, with context, is good for helping that idea spread. Not all criticism is disagreement and vice versa. 

I am not taking your words too seriously, my assumption is just that we have different ways of expressing ourselves. Its very common on an International Forum, that people express themselves differently In my opinion thats great. We probably live in different countries, with different jobs, and hobbies, but its cool that we both like Warframe and can discuss it. Thats actually really cool! 

16 minutes ago, -EPECb- said:

...it's up to you )

I have free time now and I'm not in a hurry.

 

Cheers, I appreciate it! 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

It's not that extreme for me, but it's similar.   The only frames I nearly always see one of in a squad, and the only frames I often see more than one of, are Wukong, Wisp, and (right now) Khora.  And Wukong noticeably more than Wisp.  (Although I feel like she's gradually catching up.)

Wisp is pretty close , and khora is what I see a lot in any kind of long duration mission too.

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

However, I do believe the specter usage bug exists, and while I don't have proof the Twin is a factor in that, I've got some evidence.  If you use a specter  in a mission, it and the weapons it uses will accumulate statistics in your profile.  And if I do a mission entirely  in melee mode with Wukong so that the Twin is forced to use my sidearm (Talons in this case), my usage, kills, and kill assists with the sidearm go up.

Before Mission / After Mission

Usage: 1% / 1.1%

XP: 6592889 / 6600483

Kills: 4808 / 4892

Assists: 424 / 442

Again, not proof, but I think it's persuasive.  If the clone's weapon usage is impacting stats, it seems less of a  stretch to suggest the Twin's usage is affecting Wukong's usage than that it isn't.

_{Anyway, my main takeaway from this is I hope the Twin isn't nerfed too hard.  Because  the Celestial Twin Talons Space Program is just too much fun!}

 

I do believe this was observed a lot with the umbra as well but only on weapon usage stats.

I do have mixed results in what qualifies as usage. I think it's a combination of time in mission , no. of missions , experience earned and kills performed.

It would be difficult to just condense it into two columns , this is where the errors might come from.

But is still sufficiently indicative in my opinion.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Just a small point, and I don't know which video (dev stream or tennocon)... but in one of them, when Reb was talking about the usage stat, she said it counted missions completed with that gear, and NOT the amount of time spent in the mission. SO if you run a bunch of captures with a certain gear setup, even if you don't kill anything with your secondary weapon, for instance, it'll still get a usage bump in your stats, just cuz you had it sitting on your hip in more missions total.

[-EPECb-]

11 минут назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

Projection. Its to do with psychology.

Thanks for the lesson. But...

12 минут назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

Projection and protection are different things. 

OK. Let them be different, it doesn't matter to me, because I'm just defending my thoughts, my gaming experience. And my thoughts are correct if DE agree with me and they going to fix this imbalance things in they game. As I found out above, DE have spoken out about the excessive popularity of some things in their game.

21 минуту назад, (PSN)slightconfuzzled сказал:

Thats actually really cool! 

👍👍👍👍👍

 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

14 hours ago, -EPECb- said:

15 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

The lead gameplay designer recently said in an interview (and I'm going to paraphrase here, so take this with a grain of salt) that there are plans to address both Wukong and the AoE meta in the near future.

...and this is very good news! But spending so much time to understand the obvious flaws? ...omg 

And now they have reached such an extent that ~60-70% of the players are sitting on Wukongs... can you imagine how much noise will rise now?

Unfortunately we are dealing with a developer team that isn't filled to the brim with programmers who actually work on the gameplay and bug fixing side of things. The devs that are there obviously care about those changes, but there aren't enough of them to work on old content while also developing new content, which is why it takes so long for good changes to be made.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, -EPECb- said:

Thanks for the lesson.

 

All good! 

2 minutes ago, -EPECb- said:

As I found out above, DE have spoken out about the excessive popularity of some things in their game.

 

Yeah its really exciting. I am looking forward to the changes they will be rolling out! I think I like Rebecca and Pablo's general views on the game, a bit better than some of the older crew, in general. So seeing their new ideas will be fun.