AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb (PSN)Mister_Sicky:

No I enjoy playing but much like any game if I work my butt off to get everything just the way I want it why would I think it's fine to just take it away or make it worthless.

Think about it this way.  You create a character on a sports game and get it top tier and suddenly after hours of playing they delete it or make it meaningless so you have to start all over again.  No thanks.

they've been doing that for ages. I recently read that someone spent $1000 on Rivens and then weapons was nerved.................

I would never invest real cash in this game because they do this stuff ALL THE TIME.

 

[0_The_F00l]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)Mister_Sicky said:

No I enjoy playing but much like any game if I work my butt off to get everything just the way I want it why would I think it's fine to just take it away or make it worthless.

I have my doubts to the accuracy of the 'enjoy playing " part cause of your previous statements , so one of the two is not the whole truth.

And what exactly is being taken away here ? Please avoid exaggerations. 

20 minutes ago, (PSN)Mister_Sicky said:

Think about it this way.  You create a character on a sports game and get it top tier and suddenly after hours of playing they delete it or make it meaningless so you have to start all over again.  No thanks.

Again , your "character" is not getting deleted so it's not even a correct comparison.

What is happening is that all characters now have an additional parameter you need to keep track of. 

And you saying no thanks will not make much difference , they don't need your approval to make changes.

18 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

they've been doing that for ages. I recently read that someone spent $1000 on Rivens and then weapons was nerved.................

I would never invest real cash in this game because they do this stuff ALL THE TIME.

 

I do agree , don't get too attached , any money you spend is at your own risk.

 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Venus-Venera:

they've been doing that for ages. I recently read that someone spent $1000 on Rivens and then weapons was nerved.................

I would never invest real cash in this game because they do this stuff ALL THE TIME.

 

Well, heard from a neighbour that she knew someone in a forum who transferred from prison where he met a person that told her that this person (imagine that!) spent a 1000$ on Warframe, then (and here it becomes interesting) REBBECCA personally came to this guys home and gave him 500k back. Cool,huh?

OH, btw: If you spend 1000 bucks on rivens this is on you, not DE.

[ChaoticEdge]

15 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

That topic seems interesting to me, I mean the AI thing.  Do you mean the AI of the enemies or the AI of the allies specifically?

it can be both depending how we going end up game play if we actually did "lose the frame" and end up being stuck as your common tenno version then the gameplay would change which the AI would of do great defensive move to block warframe abilities sort of like nullifyer who walk around battlefield but it is not for it is a type of troop that do like captin vor's protection phase but it is apply to group near by that AI which if he sense if player killing faster 2-4 enemies, he'll use a gadget I called "Negate-tor or Negator" which it gives remaining AI who is near by that troop get apply protection tempory shielding against AoE explosive range of that current impact which making them tough cookies which pose to last for few seconds and they just unleash hell firing while they are indivisibility which this second only last for good 3-5 seconds and it can be only used 2 or 3 time because it is gadget and I am trying "NOT" make enemy meta but be anti-meta against players who like nuke the whole room.  It is basic which this apply nearly any troops but they have to be those special troops that able command like for example which it is common a sergeant (not the corpus The Sergeant) who command private and corporal which we know sergeant get nice treatment like better gears or so forth.  As again, this idea was specifically was meant for enemies AI only but if it has to come to the game play we the player who is force to go tenno mode for I guess the specters could have this ability as least long they can work the gadget and checking % of the players health so you can have Ancient healer heal your rear while you r trying to hide.

[cute_moth.npc]

I was just sort of thinking that in my mind builds with a chaining beam / battery AoE weapon combo of some kind are actually potentially buffed by this?

Vigorous Swap + Innate holster speed buff + Headshot precision bonus = priming chain + crit AoE switch build with enhanced damage?

The swap speed after the innate buff is brought in is going to be like ..0.12 seconds or something with this mod.

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I was just sort of thinking that in my mind builds with a chaining beam / battery AoE weapon combo of some kind are actually potentially buffed by this?

Vigorous Swap + Innate holster speed buff + Headshot precision bonus = priming chain + crit AoE switch build with enhanced damage?

The swap speed after the innate buff is brought in is going to be like ..0.12 seconds or something with this mod.

It sounds like they're removing/replacing holster speed affixes.  IIRC they did specifically mention removing that bonus from Vigorous Swap.  (Curious what they'll do with Twitch etc. and the Dexterity arcanes.)

It'll still be a buff for VSwap I think, even if they don't change anything else about it.

 

[(PSN)otterboy313]

On 2022-08-26 at 2:30 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

Finally DE confirmed their AoE changes,

 

So its mostly going to be Ammo related and some minor changes to some mods that indirectly affect it like radius mods and ammo mutation.

For ammo , the types of ammo will be changing from 4 to 2 (primary and secondary),

Ammo pickups will be greater for those weapons with a greater ammo pool , and less for those with a smaller ammo pool ,

Ammo overall will drop less as well,

Primed blast range mods will have their radius reduced to 44% at max,

Ammo mutation changes werent detailed, but will be present,

 

They may make more changes if the impact is not significant enough,

 

This is something i personally advocated so i am looking forward to it.

I do think LoS and self stagger is still something that should be considered , but we shall see.

 

What about you guys?

all of these changes are good and all but the damage is still there and there are 3 ways around the ammo nerf that people will still complain about. The problem isn't really fixed. The damage is still there and and the meta will still be there once people find the ways to get around it.

[0_The_F00l]

17 minutes ago, (PSN)otterboy313 said:

all of these changes are good and all but the damage is still there and there are 3 ways around the ammo nerf that people will still complain about. The problem isn't really fixed. The damage is still there and and the meta will still be there once people find the ways to get around it.

Well , sure there may be ways , but are the ways to do so still gonna be extremely easy or is it going to be just active enough ?

Besides , DE has mentioned they may make some more changes if it is not meeting their targets.

 

[trst]

1 hour ago, (PSN)otterboy313 said:

all of these changes are good and all but the damage is still there and there are 3 ways around the ammo nerf that people will still complain about. The problem isn't really fixed. The damage is still there and and the meta will still be there once people find the ways to get around it.

But we don't know what they'll do to the ammo generation methods yet. We know at least some changes are coming regarding that as it was mentioned that Mutation (and Scavenger?) mods will get changes.

And they confirmed that they already tested and will look into adding line of sight restrictions, nerfing P.Sure Footed, making AOE kills not drop ammo for it's category, and potentially more if the nerfs aren't impactful enough.

[0_The_F00l]

7 minutes ago, trst said:

But we don't know what they'll do to the ammo generation methods yet. We know at least some changes are coming regarding that as it was mentioned that Mutation (and Scavenger?) mods will get changes.

Correct. I was thinking a cooldown , or maybe they will make the conversion limit be 40 %, there are many ways to tweak it so it can be targetted for the outliers.

There is also the specific ammo pickup stat that will be added.

7 minutes ago, trst said:

And they confirmed that they already tested and will look into adding line of sight restrictions, nerfing P.Sure Footed, making AOE kills not drop ammo for it's category, and potentially more if the nerfs aren't impactful enough.

Yes.

[_LotusPrime_]

 

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Correct. I was thinking a cooldown , or maybe they will make the conversion limit be 40 %, there are many ways to tweak it so it can be targetted for the outliers.

There is also the specific ammo pickup stat that will be added.

Yes.

i mean are all these necesary , i still dont get which type of audience that complains about aoe

cant they just nerf kuva bramna and zarr and be done with it and maybe ogris , why change how the ammos are refilled universally 

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

 

i mean are all these necesary , i still dont get which type of audience that complains about aoe

cant they just nerf kuva bramna and zarr and be done with it and maybe ogris , why change how the ammos are refilled universally 

You are looking at it purely as a nerf for the weapons in question,

me, i can see it benefiting quite a few weapons that are not exactly ammo efficient due to the flat nature of the ammo pickups we have now (twin grakatas might actually last through a survival this time), so i am happy for the change itself.

And these things i mentioned would be specifically for the outliers (the cooldown and conversion limit) , whether they are necessary will be seen after the proposed changes are in place.

I prefer indirect changes instead of stat changes (wherever possible) , so i am very happy with the direction of this.

[_LotusPrime_]

3 hours ago, trst said:

But we don't know what they'll do to the ammo generation methods yet. We know at least some changes are coming regarding that as it was mentioned that Mutation (and Scavenger?) mods will get changes.

 

you said you dont know the full scope of the chnages yet , how do you know it'll benefit big ammo rifles exactly ?

[0_The_F00l]

36 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

you said you dont know the full scope of the chnages yet , how do you know it'll benefit big ammo rifles exactly ?

Cause its part of the overview, they didn't tell us EVERYTHING , but they did say this clearly enough.

Spoiler

For starters, we’re making sweeping changes to Ammo Drops:

- Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Sniper/Bow, and Heavy Ammo Drops have been simplified into three Ammo Types: Primary, Secondary, and Heavy.

- Ammo drop rates have been halved, but the amount of ammo received has been doubled. This means weapons with a high ammo maximum will remain mostly unaffected, but those with smaller ammo pools may have to be used more tactically.

Certain weapons will have “override” values, changing how much Ammo you can get from a single pickup. This mostly applies to AoE weapons, in hopes that players will become more deliberate with their aim to make the most of their Ammo pools. Expect more details in our Patch Notes.

you can find the full overview here:

https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-163-overview

Also if you observe the weapons shown in the devstream they had a new parameter called "Ammo pickup" as a new stat.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb _LotusPrime_:

 

i mean are all these necesary , i still dont get which type of audience that complains about aoe

cant they just nerf kuva bramna and zarr and be done with it and maybe ogris , why change how the ammos are refilled universally 

actually only kuva zarr.
Unfortunately, kuva bramma is miserable. 2 mil OVERKILL crits with 3 buff saryn on sp hardly bring me much if I have to constantly look for ammo.

kuva ogris is not the best weapon either. acceltra does a lot more damage and is downright deadly with the right warframe.
especially acceltra is all-round weapon like kuva zarr.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb _LotusPrime_:

i mean are all these necesary , i still dont get which type of audience that complains about aoe

creatures that don't play the game and complain about everything?
because who has had complaints about aoe weapons in the game? I since.......... I never had!

[Rakosta_Kai]

33 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

creatures that don't play the game and complain about everything?
because who has had complaints about aoe weapons in the game? I since.......... I never had!

Given that the players who initially explained why they use AOE in Co-OP so much admitted to making the other players out to be little more than bots whose only function was to boost enemy count in PuGs.— Calling them creatures now seems pretty consistent to me.
Y'all just mad that the "creatures" came to the forum and got their complaints heard...

Had y'all treated them as actual players to begin with then DE wouldn't have needed to nerf AOE at all.

Just sayin'

 

[cute_moth.npc]

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

It sounds like they're removing/replacing holster speed affixes.  IIRC they did specifically mention removing that bonus from Vigorous Swap.  (Curious what they'll do with Twitch etc. and the Dexterity arcanes.)

It'll still be a buff for VSwap I think, even if they don't change anything else about it.

 

Oh, thank you I missed that ^^;

The devil is in the details sometimes. I also think that still seems like an overall buff though, and like it's pretty much an invite for players to start looking at comboing their primary / secondary weapons for effect.

Orrr just using two battery powered AoE weapons over and over until they also come back and nerf line of sight and knockdown resistance lol.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Padre_Akais:

making the other players out to be little more than bots

I don't even want to know if this is serious...
and yes. i have a lot of respect for other players. what I can't say about weird........!

[p_silveira]

41 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Given that the players who initially explained why they use AOE in Co-OP so much admitted to making the other players out to be little more than bots whose only function was to boost enemy count in PuGs.— Calling them creatures now seems pretty consistent to me.
Y'all just mad that the "creatures" came to the forum and got their complaints heard...

Had y'all treated them as actual players to begin with then DE wouldn't have needed to nerf AOE at all.

Just sayin'

I'd give you 10 upvotes if I could. This pretty much sums it all. I'm tired of loading into pubs and they becoming a walking simulator because I'm using a heavy hitting Ambassador and then someone with PSF + Zarr/Bramma/etc spam shooting the walls making the entire mission a walking simulator for the other 3 players (me included).

[Rakosta_Kai]

From:

2 hours ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

i mean are all these necesary , i still dont get which type of audience that complains about aoe

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

creatures that don't play the game and complain about everything?

To:

51 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

and yes. i have a lot of respect for other players.

...In an hour.

Assuming you are being honest, I'll just leave off by saying, "Now you know"


 

[_LotusPrime_]

if for every aoe complain pile of threads we could have reworks and qol changes we would be flyin already 

like the saying goes , if i had a nickel for every .. 

i mean , you guys complian about aoe's , do you also complain about bugs and for complaining to have more qol changes in  modding , arsenal or companions (ive still heard the other they that we still have the companion bug thing from years and years ago) , if youre not complaining about those in game issues but rather just aoe i think thats also not valid and disingenous 

you guys seem to have passion but like,  all in the wrong places.

[0_The_F00l]

14 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

if for every aoe complain pile of threads we could have reworks and qol changes we would be flyin already 

like the saying goes , if i had a nickel for every .. 

i mean , you guys complian about aoe's , do you also complain about bugs and for complaining to have more qol changes in  modding , arsenal or companions (ive still heard the other they that we still have the companion bug thing from years and years ago) , if youre not complaining about those in game issues but rather just aoe i think thats also not valid and disingenous 

you guys seem to have passion but like,  all in the wrong places.

Now now , let's not generalise. It kinda reduces your credibility to hold an unbiased discussion or argument. Please take each argument at its own merits , creating strawmen helps no one , yourself the least.

Do you actually know or have counted each and every response of each and every player across each and every thread that has happened in the last 10 years ? If you have i would love to see that dataset.

So , Do you really know if the players that have supported the AoE change have not supported other changes as well ? 

I have both liked , disliked , supported and criticised many changes that have been proposed in the past. I have actively highlight many bugs and shared the respective logs with the support team. I have had times where I was at the recieving end of having some of my favourite things being removed from the game and also at times when my niche playstyle became a lot more viable.

So feel free to disagree or debate on the points i have raised on the topic at hand, and let's not call out each others "contributions" in unrelated topics.

[Tiltskillet]

26 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

i mean , you guys complian about aoe's , do you also complain about bugs and for complaining to have more qol changes

Yes.

[PublikDomain]

30 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

do you also complain about bugs and for complaining to have more qol changes in  modding , arsenal or companions

Yes.