Upcoming headshot multiplier change from x2 to x3 is too much

[selig_fay]

12 hours ago, Rantear said:

Does the bubble affect melee? There's only one secondary Incarnon.

All projectiles and hitscan. Not melee. 

This works even better for things that have a large Spread, because the enemy’s head collects all the bullets.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

DE needs to get rid of damage caps, damage attenuation, invincibility phases and damage immunity, but to do so would require consolidating all the damage multipliers they have in game that have gone unchecked. Changing the headshot multiplier from 2.0x to 3.0x is a huge buff for Crit weapons since:

The fact that Serration, Bane of Grineer and Charged Chamber all read "+%Damage" says it all. There isn't even proper in-game terminology to reference the various different multipliers that exist in game. 

Rhino buffs affect the "Faction Damage" multiplier, while Chroma buffs the "Base Damage" multiplier are pretty much terms the player base to make distinctions since the game doesn't make any.

DE was working on "Damage Attenuation" to normalize damage which accounts for Fire Rate not Crit, then players realized that Banshee goes BBBRRRRRrrrrrrr. There are enough damage multipliers in the game that DE has trouble accounting them all. 

Mods, Arcanes and Warframe descriptions need a huge overhaul when it comes to "+Damage" effects, first of all, actually differentiating them in the descriptions themselves. No more having to go to simulacrum trying to figure out if something is additive to Serration, or Rhino's Roar which double dips on Slash procs for some reason.

BASE, BONUS, CRITICAL, HEADSHOT, MULTI-SHOT, ELEMENTAL, VIRAL/MAGNETIC STATUS, FIRE RATE, ARMOR STRIP, BANSHEE SONAR, NEZHA VULNERABILTY DEBUFF......ETC..

But looking at that list which is probably incomplete, it's too much when most of them have no other condition than equipping them on the modding screen and that's not getting into the "intended" double dipping that happens in this game. Inevitably, something is deemed too much and "unattended". Remember when Condition Overload was exponential with itself and multiplicative with Base Damage? Remember when Gas triple dipped on stealth? Cut down the list to something actually manageable and avoid "unintended" multiplication which would inevitably lead to some players ranting about how the game is "dying" because of all the "nerfing" when stuff is put on the chopping block.

BASE, BONUS, CRITICAL, MULTI-SHOT, ELEMENTAL,FIRE RATE, ARMOR STRIP

• Roll Viral/Magnetic Procs into BASE; Viral is Meta precisely because it is a unique damage multiplier that nothing else provides creating a huge opportunity cost for not running it
• Roll Headshots into Critical; instead of a headshot multiplier, headshots grant a flat Critical Chance Bonus (+200% Flat Critical Chance on non-radial Headshot), so even non-crit weapons can take advantage of Crit damage if they have the accuracy
• Roll all current and future Warframe buffs/debuffs into pre-existing damage multiplier categories; no niche Warframe darkhorsing the reworked Damage Attenuation

[vixenpixel]

On 2022-08-29 at 10:48 PM, Pakaku said:

I think the initial headshots are a little too easy to hit... It's annoying when procs knock them around, but for the most part the animations are predictable

Electric might be worth modding for, the procs force them to stand still and expose their heads, even shield lancers. Cold is also good at slowing them down. The only question is do you want to rethink your builds or not.

YES! Omygod. Please. :) 

New electricity fringe-meta sounds like so much fun. :)

[Silligoose]

On 2022-08-30 at 12:16 PM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

That's so true. And not only the Lich DA, but also the recent changes on the Nox DA (after the Eximus rework), that was stacking with some other old mechanics that even Pablo ignored.

Apparently Pablo was unaware of Nox still having a DA formula active even after the helmet was broken. Apparently that was what caused the greater-than-desired durability with Eximus Nox and Overguard's on release.

Now I give kudos to Pablo for simply stating it was a mechanic he wasn't aware  of - honesty with the community is good in my opinion, but I am concerned that no one else on the balance team brought it to his attention, be it because they also weren't aware, or for some other reason. A greater cause for concern is the possible conclusions one can draw as a result:

• No one on the balance team knew, which means no one on the balance team knows the product that they are balancing well enough to understand how their changes are affecting the game or;
• Someone did know, but communication within the team is poor, to the extent that the interaction went through despite some being aware of the problem or;
• Someone did know, but didn't care enough to make the problem known.

Regardless of which scenario it was, it bring about another concern:

• Testing is sub-standard as this very obvious oversight was not picked up and the team remained unaware or;
• The mechanic was picked up during testing or even prior to it, and, as you state, was ignored.

It sucks to say it, but it needs to be said: The balance teams seem to lack knowledge of the mechanics in Warframe to address problems correctly, or lacks the passion and dedication to address the problems appropriately. L:ooking at balance changes done more recently, as well as some changes in recent years, leads me to believe it is both, as changes have been quite myopic.

This idea of increasing headshot damage, as well as other proposed solutions the balance team is looking at, continues to reinforce this point of view. DE needs to get some people in their balance teams that really knows and understands the game to the extent where ideas don't need to be implemented in order to understand they are, by and large, a waste of time and resources and they need people who are willing to deny ideas for this reason.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

5 hours ago, Silligoose said:

No one on the balance team knew, which means no one on the balance team knows the product that they are balancing well enough to understand how their changes are affecting the game or;

This is my take. There is no other explanation as to why Banshee went under Lich DA's radar.

When Serration, Bane of Grineer and Charged Chamber all read "+%Damage", it's clear that DE just threw on random multipliers with no intentions whatsoever. Condition Overload was once its own unique multiplier exponential with itself that was eventually nerfed into being additive with Pressure Point. "Faction Damage" double dips on Slash procs, used to triple dip on Gas?

We need Damage 3.0 where DE from the ground up establishes clearly defined boundaries instead of back tracking and saying how this being "multiplicative" with everything that came before or "double" and "triple" dipping was "unintended". It's a way more constructive use of development time than trying to cover things up the flaws with Damage Attenuation, status immunity that will always feel cheesy.

Even something like Genshin Impact understands this where a skill or passive always effects something clearly pre-defined.

• Buffs: (Talent Multiplier, Atk, DMG, CRIT DMG, Melt/Vap) 
• Debuffs: (DEF, Resistance)

DE shouldn't have been surprised that Viral became the default damage type Viral is its own unique scaling multiplier (Corrosive gets backhanded by every other armor strip in the game) and thus a great opportunity cost when not running some form of it just like Base Damage and Multi-shot. 

[Silligoose]

On 2022-09-02 at 1:27 AM, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

DE needs to get rid of damage caps, damage attenuation, invincibility phases and damage immunity, but to do so would require consolidating all the damage multipliers they have in game that have gone unchecked. Changing the headshot multiplier from 2.0x to 3.0x is a huge buff for Crit weapons since:

The fact that Serration, Bane of Grineer and Charged Chamber all read "+%Damage" says it all. There isn't even proper in-game terminology to reference the various different multipliers that exist in game. 

Rhino buffs affect the "Faction Damage" multiplier, while Chroma buffs the "Base Damage" multiplier are pretty much terms the player base to make distinctions since the game doesn't make any.

DE was working on "Damage Attenuation" to normalize damage which accounts for Fire Rate not Crit, then players realized that Banshee goes BBBRRRRRrrrrrrr. There are enough damage multipliers in the game that DE has trouble accounting them all. 

Mods, Arcanes and Warframe descriptions need a huge overhaul when it comes to "+Damage" effects, first of all, actually differentiating them in the descriptions themselves. No more having to go to simulacrum trying to figure out if something is additive to Serration, or Rhino's Roar which double dips on Slash procs for some reason.

BASE, BONUS, CRITICAL, HEADSHOT, MULTI-SHOT, ELEMENTAL, VIRAL/MAGNETIC STATUS, FIRE RATE, ARMOR STRIP, BANSHEE SONAR, NEZHA VULNERABILTY DEBUFF......ETC..

But looking at that list which is probably incomplete, it's too much when most of them have no other condition than equipping them on the modding screen and that's not getting into the "intended" double dipping that happens in this game. Inevitably, something is deemed too much and "unattended". Remember when Condition Overload was exponential with itself and multiplicative with Base Damage? Remember when Gas triple dipped on stealth? Cut down the list to something actually manageable and avoid "unintended" multiplication which would inevitably lead to some players ranting about how the game is "dying" because of all the "nerfing" when stuff is put on the chopping block.

BASE, BONUS, CRITICAL, MULTI-SHOT, ELEMENTAL,FIRE RATE, ARMOR STRIP

• Roll Viral/Magnetic Procs into BASE; Viral is Meta precisely because it is a unique damage multiplier that nothing else provides creating a huge opportunity cost for not running it
• Roll Headshots into Critical; instead of a headshot multiplier, headshots grant a flat Critical Chance Bonus (+200% Flat Critical Chance on non-radial Headshot), so even non-crit weapons can take advantage of Crit damage if they have the accuracy
• Roll all current and future Warframe buffs/debuffs into pre-existing damage multiplier categories; no niche Warframe darkhorsing the reworked Damage Attenuation

I agree with the overall premise and certainly agree descriptions need to be done properly, not only for the player's benefit, but for the dev's benefit, as it seems the devs aren't quite aware of the extent to which different mechanics interact and increase damage potential. I've recall DE mentioning in some dev streams they've tried addressing the UI pertaining to the mod system, even to the extent of hiring outside teams to address that fiasco and somehow, these teams have failed, which is baffling.

Though I do not quite agree with some of the nuances in suggested solutions, such as headshot/weakspot multipliers being rolled into crit chance (since some weapons have poor crit damage multipliers), I do agree some of the base mechanics need to be addressed, so we don't have as many multipliers working on via different mechanics that allow for multiplicative interactions with one another eg Roar vs Rift Surge, in order for DE to be able to manage the various mechanics not only better, since that is a low bar, but well. As you state this would also negate the need for players to actually have to go and test various setup to confirm their method of work.

Some of the multipliers are just too high in my opinion as well. The additional multiplier granted via crit tier on headshots vs certain enemies is not only too high, but just plain unneeded in my opinion.

 

45 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

This is my take. There is no other explanation as to why Banshee went under Lich DA's radar.

When Serration, Bane of Grineer and Charged Chamber all read "+%Damage", it's clear that DE just threw on random multipliers with no intentions whatsoever. Condition Overload was once its own unique multiplier exponential with itself that was eventually nerfed into being additive with Pressure Point. "Faction Damage" double dips on Slash procs, used to triple dip on Gas?

We need Damage 3.0 where DE from the ground up establishes clearly defined boundaries instead of back tracking and saying how this being "multiplicative" with everything that came before or "double" and "triple" dipping was "unintended". It's a way more constructive use of development time than trying to cover things up the flaws with Damage Attenuation, status immunity that will always feel cheesy.

Even something like Genshin Impact understands this where a skill or passive always effects something clearly pre-defined.

• Buffs: (Talent Multiplier, Atk, DMG, CRIT DMG, Melt/Vap) 
• Debuffs: (DEF, Resistance)

DE shouldn't have been surprised that Viral became the default damage type Viral is its own unique scaling multiplier (Corrosive gets backhanded by every other armor strip in the game) and thus a great opportunity cost when not running some form of it just like Base Damage and Multi-shot. 

I agree.

 

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-09-02 at 9:01 AM, vixenpixel said:

New electricity fringe-meta sounds like so much fun. :)

Gas too.  Both can already do some crazy stuff, but the increased headshot multiplier will make them more accessible and viable without vortex, armor strip, rivens, or specialized weapons like Knell P. 

It's actually bigger than I thought when I mentioned it earlier, since I didn't realize a 3x headshot multiplier means gas/electric proc damage will be increased by 9x before Deadhead etc. rather than 6x.  (4x now.)   That is, unless this gets fixed, which seems doubtful after so many years.

I'm so looking forward to pulling Gas Vulkar out of the toolbox for this.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-08-29 at 11:23 AM, Rantear said:

Especially with every shot causing staggers,

Oh my lord i just realized how much more annoying hydroid might just be after these changes lord have mercy. My mans is a ragdoll god, with even less ammo to deal with it all?

 

Ooooof

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-08-29 at 4:56 PM, Proscriptor said:

^ +1

just take something like ignis wraith, you'll immediately notice a huge difference when the changes hit

Thought they said the explosive part of aoe cant get headshots after change?

Though a flamethrower could like a shotgun, you just need to get close, the change wont have it for now.

[A5PECT]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Thought they said the explosive part of aoe cant get headshots after change?

Though a flamethrower could like a shotgun, you just need to get close, the change wont have it for now.

They were vague on whether they're going to make radial damage "incapable of scoring headshots" or "have a 1.0x damage multiplier on headshots." The former will render headshot-conditional arcanes largely useless on weapons that rely on a radial damage component, the latter only means it will only be more difficult to trigger the headshot condition (with the exact degree depending on the weapon in question)

 

It's something that should be elaborated on/tested

[Monolake]

Warframe is an absolute mess that is too late to fix and DE has cultivated playerbase who only want to play easy mode or just get rewards for doing nothing - like in an idle game - so DE cant oughtright nerf out of control overpowered explosive spam.   This headshot multi is just a desperate attempt to somehow incentivize people to aim and give single-target a chance.

[0_The_F00l]

I agree with the core sentiment , 

Additional damage was not needed.

It doesn't really help cause more damage was never the actual issue.