Wukong clone and ammo

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

Before the clone starts using our ammo his AI really needs to be looked at or fixed.  Extremely Desperately

 Last week I was running Index with friends and I was holding back to guard the goal and I noticed my Clone just randomly started shooting his own feet and went threw like 3 clips doing that when no enemies where around or even in range.  in a minute and half or so with the Felarx which only has like 66 rounds total.  SO in just the brief lul i had in enemies by the goal my clone would of effectively thrown half of my ammo off the cliff just because he was bored. iff he had shared my ammo pool at time

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Did you have radar mods on? There are tiny robots he was probably shooting at, or an invisible enemy.

[gamingchair1121]

then despawn him. he can't use your ammo if he's not there

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Did you have radar mods on? There are tiny robots he was probably shooting at, or an invisible enemy.

all the enemies where on other side of the map I was in voice chat with the squad and every enemie was accounted for on other side of map

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

2 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

then despawn him. he can't use your ammo if he's not there

Thats a bandaid and doesnt fix the problem that the AI is not funtioning properly

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

Thats a bandaid and doesnt fix the problem that the AI is not funtioning properly

A base function of the ability is... a band-aid... for the ability?

You know what you could do?

You could press the Aim button. It switches him to melee mode while you're in Primary or Secondary mode. Then he literally can't fire the weapon.

Is that a band-aid? I think it's another base part of the ability. One you can use to actively manage the Ammo usage in the future.

[Tiltskillet]

Even though I wanted some downgrades to the twin, I can't say I'm fond of this particular change either.   I'd rather he have his own ammo pool.  Or perhaps even better, have his fire rate vary somewhat with the total ammo capacity of the weapon, just to very loosely mimic ammo conservation.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

A base function of the ability is... a band-aid... for the ability?

You know what you could do?

You could press the Aim button. It switches him to melee mode while you're in Primary or Secondary mode. Then he literally can't fire the weapon.

Is that a band-aid? I think it's another base part of the ability. One you can use to actively manage the Ammo usage in the future.

being able to stop him from firing at nothing just by take weapon away or just turning him off isnt a fix to broken ai its just ignoring the problem and sweaping it under the rug

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Even though I wanted some downgrades to the twin, I can't say I'm fond of this particular change either.   I'd rather he have his own ammo pool.  Or perhaps even better, have his fire rate vary somewhat with the total ammo capacity of the weapon, just to very loosely mimic ammo conservation.

I dont mind the change its the fact that he is waisting ammo for no reason indicating he is registering the ground or a wall as and enemy for no reason

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

being able to stop him from firing at nothing just by take weapon away or just turning him off isnt a fix to broken ai its just ignoring the problem and sweaping it under the rug

Wukong's clone AI is, at its core, actually the most advanced in the game right now. It's aggressive and quick-targeting.

Compare it to any of the other AI functions in game and it's easily twice as effective.

The AI in game all comes from the same base code, and at least with Clone there are only two base priorities and multiple control triggers. Specters, Shadows, Pets, all have multiple priorities and almost no control triggers.

What I'm saying is that while you can ask for the AI to be looked at again, you're not going to get any improvement. Since that would require a complete overhaul of all AI in the game.

You need to take on board and actively use the management tricks that are built into the ability because DE know exactly how bad their AI is, and have given you the means to reign it in.

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

I dont mind the change its the fact that he is waisting ammo for no reason indicating he is registering the ground or a wall as and enemy for no reason

I've seen them do this.  But I haven't seen it a lot.  Specters in general do seem to have crappy aim, but that's a different thing.

None of which I would mind, except that I don't like it impacting the player's ammo pool.

[Rantear]

2 минуты назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

You need to take on board and actively use the management tricks that are built into the ability because DE know exactly how bad their AI is, and have given you the means to reign it in.

So your advice is to constantly look over the shoulder, to see if clone didn't bug out once again, instead of actually playing the game?
That sounds like forcing more players into the very gameplay style this change was meant to fight.

If you're actually playing the game, you won't ever notice when his AI derps out, and starts shooting at the floor or smth, you'll be looking at enemies.

With how many issues this change seems to introduce, it feels like just adding him a duration would've been a far more sensible solution.
Unless they really just wanted to remove him, but didn't felt like designing a new ability.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Rantear said:

So your advice is to constantly look over the shoulder,

If you aren't already, then I worry for how you're playing the game ^^

1 hour ago, Rantear said:

With how many issues this change seems to introduce, it feels like just adding him a duration would've been a far more sensible solution.

Ah, well if you're talking about a better nerf? That's another thing.

Mine would have been to just confine him to Iron Staff usage and buff Iron Staff more than they are.

[Lutesque]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

Before the clone starts using our ammo his AI really needs to be looked at or fixed.  Extremely Desperately

He Won't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The Whole Reason Wukong is being Nerfed in the First place is because They don't want to Fix the 10 Other Garbage Warframe's that people don't want to use....

Expecting Them to all of a sudden fix what ain't Broken is just Wishful Thinking.... Soooooo....

8 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

then despawn him. he can't use your ammo if he's not there

And this what we Call an Anti-Synergy.... 

Celestial Twin's AI is Broken therefore it's the Player's Responsibility to Fix/Micromanage it... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

7 hours ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

Thats a bandaid and doesnt fix the problem that the AI is not funtioning properly

Exactly.... But that Comes with the Territory of Misguided Nerfs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Even though I wanted some downgrades to the twin, I can't say I'm fond of this particular change either.   I'd rather he have his own ammo pool.  Or perhaps even better, have his fire rate vary somewhat with the total ammo capacity of the weapon, just to very loosely mimic ammo conservation.

Too Much Work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Compare it to any of the other AI functions in game and it's easily twice as effective.

It actually Isn't....

It's 100% Identical to any Other AI.... There's nothing Special About Celestial Twin.... You just Don't Notice it's bad because just like Umbra he's Hard Coded to Stay Close to you unlike Specters/Companions. He was Designed to Not be a Hindrance.... To Actually Be Useful.... This Nerf is Going in the Exact Opposite Direction.... And it's going to be Worse since they are Nerfing Ammo Drops and his Damage Output too.... Causing him to Use more Ammo to Compensate....

I Wana see how many Players will be Stubborn Enough to keep Playing Wukong through All Of This....

 

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You need to take on board and actively use the management tricks that are built into the ability because DE know exactly how bad their AI is, and have given you the means to reign it in.

Or Just find some new Exploit to Show Case that this Change was Pointless and Unnecessary ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

5 hours ago, Rantear said:

 

With how many issues this change seems to introduce, it feels like just adding him a duration would've been a far more sensible solution.

Caliban/Equinox says Hi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If you aren't already, then I worry for how you're playing the game ^^

 

if you are already then you are doing exactly what caused them to try and change him in first place and letting him do majority of your fighting and not playing the game yourself and are part of the problem they tried to fix

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Expecting Them to all of a sudden fix what ain't Broken is just Wishful Thinking.... Soooooo....

 

 

Except it is broken Last time i regularly used him 6-8 months ago he did not behave this way a change has been made since then that has broken his behavior and causing him to randomly attack nothing

 

[Rantear]

13 часов назад, Lutesque сказал:

Caliban/Equinox says Hi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not sure what you mean by that, but yeah, I've not seen anyone complain about Duality, so despite how basic that solution is, it at least would not have introduced any new issues.

Although I don't really see a connection to Caliban, he has different kind of specters, are they good enough to be comparable to specters with AoE? I've not really looked at him yet.

[Lutesque]

5 hours ago, Rantear said:

I've not seen anyone complain about Duality

You need to actually Use it to Generate Thoughts so you can Complain About it.... And I'm pretty sure Duality is Not Equinox's Go To Augment for most players...

It's Just like Me Saying nobody Complains about The Lightfall.... Ofcourse they don't... Nobody's Heard of Lightfall... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

5 hours ago, Rantear said:

so despite how basic that solution is, it at least would not have introduced any new issues.

Are you insinuating that Something is not an Issue just because Nobody Complains about it ? 🤔....

I firmly Disagree with that Logic...

5 hours ago, Rantear said:

Although I don't really see a connection to Caliban, he has different kind of specters, are they good enough to be comparable to specters with AoE? I've not really looked at him yet.

They are a waste of Energy....

Caliban's most Effective Ability is Press 4 To Armor Strip.... That's it.... Everything else is varying degrees of Underwhelming....

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2022-08-29 at 1:09 AM, Lutesque said:

It's 100% Identical to any Other AI....

Followed by:

On 2022-08-29 at 1:09 AM, Lutesque said:

he's Hard Coded to Stay Close to you unlike Specters/Companions. He was Designed to Not be a Hindrance.... To Actually Be Useful....

Multiple reasons why he's not.

Lute? I'm starting to wonder if you're actually reading your own replies.

On 2022-08-29 at 11:05 AM, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

If you are already then you are doing exactly what caused them to try and change him in first place

Wait...

If I'm constantly looking around and actively paying attention to the game I'm... somehow the reason they changed Wukong? Did you... forget what I was replying to mid-response?

Both of you are being very, very strange in this thread.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-08-29 at 6:55 AM, Rantear said:

Not sure what you mean by that, but yeah, I've not seen anyone complain about Duality, so despite how basic that solution is, it at least would not have introduced any new issues.

Although I don't really see a connection to Caliban, he has different kind of specters, are they good enough to be comparable to specters with AoE? I've not really looked at him yet.

I'm not sure what Lutesque was getting at. Whether he thinks duration would be too big a change or too little of one, or if it was something else entirely.

Personally I think Duality is an example of a specter that would be absurd if permanent, whereas it's reasonably balanced by its duration.  (And other stuff.)  I think that could work with the twin too, but I don't think it's the only way to deal with it.

 

 

[Lutesque]

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Multiple reasons why he's not.

Lute? I'm starting to wonder if you're actually reading your own replies.

I'm starting to Wonder if you can Read At All....

Making an AI Teleport has got nothing to Do with The AI itself....

Celestial Twin & Umbra continue to behave the Exact same way as Specters Do.... 

12 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm not sure what Lutesque was getting at. Whether he thinks duration would be too big a change or too little of one, or if it was something else entirely.

I honestly Don't Know what Kinda impact it will have... My point is just show How much People Complained about Caliban and how Nobody Uses Duality... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I thought that was Obvious but Apparently I expected too much 👀....

12 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

 

Personally I think Duality is an example of a specter that would be absurd if permanent, whereas it's reasonably balanced by its duration.  (And other stuff.)  I think that could work with the twin too, but I don't think it's the only way to deal with it.

The Main Issue with Duality is the Specter also Spawns with the Same Survivability is Equinox but with the Stupidity of Warframe's Typical AI.... If your Plan is to give Duality a Long Duration.... Think Again.... It's Going to get Destroyed before it Ever Lasts that long....

The Same thing Happens to Umbra

This is Why Celestial Twin is given Double The Survivability...

It's not like DE wasn't thinking when they Made those Decisions.... They all Have Reasons for being the way they Are.... 

[(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn]

Wukong's clone shoots where enemies are about to spawn or the general direction they're coming from, thus giving the appearance he's "shooting at nothing." Think of it like a form of enemy radar. And, yes, because of this, he's going to rip through your upcoming "shared" ammo pool like it's nothing. Same for Excalibur Umbra and Duality Equinox. Not sure about built specters since they haven't been clear yet about changes to those. 

[Drasiel]

On 2022-09-01 at 4:40 AM, (XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn said:

Wukong's clone shoots where enemies are about to spawn or the general direction they're coming from, thus giving the appearance he's "shooting at nothing." Think of it like a form of enemy radar. And, yes, because of this, he's going to rip through your upcoming "shared" ammo pool like it's nothing. Same for Excalibur Umbra and Duality Equinox. Not sure about built specters since they haven't been clear yet about changes to those. 

The clone also doesn't always check for line of sight, or maybe it doesn't recognize certain level geometry as interrupting line of sight. I've caught my celestial twin happily firing into a pillar trying to hit the enemy on the other side of it multiple times. The ammo change for wukong just puts his clone up for helminth with me because I'm not going to babysit that idiot. I've never been so glad that I have excalibur prime so I don't have to worry about umbra eating my ammo if I need to use my operator.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2022-08-31 at 7:18 AM, Lutesque said:

Making an AI Teleport has got nothing to Do with The AI itself....

Lists a function of AI as not having anything to do with AI...

This isn't the category of science fiction known as 'artificial intelligence', this is a video game where you program in a list of responses, based on priority, for a non-playable-character to use.

On a ground-base level, yes, Umbra and Clone do 'behave' the same as Specters, they still walk, still aim, shoot and swing melee weapons, they still cast abilities sometimes.

But things like 'staying close' by teleporting to you, things like 'not being a hindrance' by not actively using the same thing you are so that there's a balance, and things like 'being useful' in that they can attack on command, cast their abilities or use weapons you carry? That's literally what AI programming in video games is.

I'm wondering if you genuinely think that DE is programming actual intelligent thought into their characters here... Because that's not how this works.

AI in Warframe is literally telling an NPC that 'if the player character walks too far away, do this action' which teleports them to your side, or 'when an "enemy" is detected in range of the NPC, do this action' which is to shoot a weapon, or to run at it with a melee to hit it.

That's AI in Warframe, and the fact that you can literally list three things that stand Clone apart from the others, is what makes the AI better.

[Lutesque]

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Lists a function of AI as not having anything to do with AI...

It's not a Function Of The AI.... It's A Function if the Ability itself.... You Can Completely Turn Off The AI and it Will Still Teleport to you because That Feature has got nothing to Do With The AI....

In other Words... celestial Twin/Umbra/On-Call Crew is just a Glorified Sentinal with a Longer Leash..... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯