Kitgun PAX arcanes (after AOE nerf)

[TrapperCZE]

Since AOE will not be able to headshot i realy hope DE will change the headshot kill requiement on Pax Bolt and Pax Seeker because those will become unusable for 4/6 kitgans.

Most kitguns are AoE or Beam where the beams are body-chaining and AoE that technicaly have projectile to "headshot" are not getting kills with the projectiles but with radials so only 2 kitguns reamin (Rattleguts and Catchmoon) that will have a reliable way to proc those arcanes.

EDIT: 
also when im talking about Pax Bolt it would be big QOL if the duration of the buff was longer (from 4s to XXs) OR it would be changed to "+x% more Ability Strength to your next cast" 
this would make it mre flexible and user friendly

[Uhkretor]

... I'm pretty sure Catchmoon is also going to be affected since it has an AoE component... But I'll just wait until the update comes out to confirm my theory...

 

... That said, I'm glad the only Pax Arcane I'm going to use is the one that provides infinite ammo... And this is a decision I made since Fortuna was released and I saw the available Kitgun arcane list...

[Pakaku]

As long as hiting the head's hitbox can still trigger the gimmick, things should be fine. The only difference is you'll only deal 1x the damage.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Well There needs to be solid definition what is AoE weapon. Weapon which attacks multiple targets, like linking beams, vermsplicer primary, nukor, cycron and etc or AoE weps are weps which has radial attack segments in their stat description like mausolon, bramma , zarrs, ogris`s, cedo, tetra, stug, tonkor,secondary kitguns like gaze, cathmoon,sporelacer , lenz, heck even nataruk and etc.. Or anything which does dmg to more than 1 target.

 

[Frendh]

The update notes said the AoE damage will not be able to headshot. But the projectile itself can still do headshots. I see nothing that needs to be fixed with Pax.

[Lutesque]

7 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... I'm pretty sure Catchmoon is also going to be affected since it has an AoE component... But I'll just wait until the update comes out to confirm my theory...

Catchmoon Had it's Headshot Multiplier Removed Ages Ago mate.... The Weapon is Actually Terrible Now 👀....

5 hours ago, Pakaku said:

As long as hiting the head's hitbox can still trigger the gimmick, things should be fine. The only difference is you'll only deal 1x the damage.

In Theory Sure.... In Practice... The Update Hasn't Even Launched yet and Kitguns are Already pretty Weak Compared to normal Weapons.... This Update is going to make Some of them Weaker Still.... Will they Be Fine?

I doubt it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯....

 

[TrapperCZE]

8 hours ago, Frendh said:

The update notes said the AoE damage will not be able to headshot. But the projectile itself can still do headshots. I see nothing that needs to be fixed with Pax.

then read what i have writen again ...
YES the projectiles can headshot BUT almost never kill, you need headshot kill, what kills is the radial part in 95% of cases and not the projectile

take sporelacer, yes it has projectiles but you will practicly never kill with teh projectile, what kills is the big radial OR the small bomblet radials = > no pax for you 
↑ this together with the abysmall duration of 4s and god awfull buff bar where there is 30 thinks at once makes Pax Bolt practicly useles on sporelacer, thus the duration change suggestion

[Frendh]

10 hours ago, TrapperCZE said:

then read what i have writen again ...
YES the projectiles can headshot BUT almost never kill, you need headshot kill, what kills is the radial part in 95% of cases and not the projectile

You are probably right. I have not actually looked closely at what headshots do on those weapons.

[Tyreaus]

18 hours ago, Pakaku said:

As long as hiting the head's hitbox can still trigger the gimmick, things should be fine. The only difference is you'll only deal 1x the damage.

I imagine this will be how they do it. This already occurs with Catchmoon and a few similar weapons, so it's fairly straightforward and avoids the mess as mentioned by OP.

[TrapperCZE]

On 2022-09-04 at 4:19 AM, Pakaku said:

As long as hiting the head's hitbox can still trigger the gimmick, things should be fine. The only difference is you'll only deal 1x the damage.

14 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I imagine this will be how they do it. This already occurs with Catchmoon and a few similar weapons, so it's fairly straightforward and avoids the mess as mentioned by OP.

the gimick is not getting headshot, that would be fine and preferable by me, and thats what im suggesting 

the gimmick now is ON HEADSHOT KILL the problem is with projectile with 1x damage YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET HEADSHOT KILL with the projectile only == no "on headshot kill" arcanes will work escpecialy kitgun (Pax) arcanes

 

[Pakaku]

8 hours ago, TrapperCZE said:

the gimick is not getting headshot, that would be fine and preferable by me, and thats what im suggesting 

the gimmick now is ON HEADSHOT KILL the problem is with projectile with 1x damage YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET HEADSHOT KILL with the projectile only == no "on headshot kill" arcanes will work escpecialy kitgun (Pax) arcanes

Nothing changes about the potential of making headshot kills, it just means not dealing multiplied damage. At worst you'll just need to make an extra shot or two.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-09-03 at 7:19 PM, Pakaku said:

As long as hiting the head's hitbox can still trigger the gimmick, things should be fine.

I don't think they gave us sufficient information to know that.  They did say a few times that AoE components would no longer hit headshots, and SFAIK, never qualified that by saying something like "headshot multipliers".   It's conceivable that all or some headshot conditions that are now triggerable with AoE will no longer be able to do so.  IOW, like the Deadhead mods, where the trigger requires a precision kill.

Or they just were in a rush and didn't think to mention headshot triggers would still be working.

8 hours ago, TrapperCZE said:

the problem is with projectile with 1x damage YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET HEADSHOT KILL with the projectile only == no "on headshot kill" arcanes will work escpecialy kitgun (Pax) arcanes

Well, it wouldn't be an AoE nerf if it had no effect on AoE at all. :P

You're right though: some weapons will be hurt more than others by this though, and some of them won't deserve to be.  Weapons with small AoEs that are typically used like precision weapons especially. 

That's the problem with nerfing mechanics and not tuning individual weapons, or at least mixing some of that in.  Hopefully they address some of this after the patch, although I'm not exactly optimistic.

[TrapperCZE]

16 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't think they gave us sufficient information to know that.  They did say a few times that AoE components would no longer hit headshots, and SFAIK, never qualified that by saying something like "headshot multipliers".   It's conceivable that all or some headshot conditions that are now triggerable with AoE will no longer be able to do so.  IOW, like the Deadhead mods, where the trigger requires a precision kill.

Or they just were in a rush and didn't think to mention headshot triggers would still be working.

Well, it wouldn't be an AoE nerf if it had no effect on AoE at all. :P

You're right though: some weapons will be hurt more than others by this though, and some of them won't deserve to be.  Weapons with small AoEs that are typically used like precision weapons especially. 

That's the problem with nerfing mechanics and not tuning individual weapons, or at least mixing some of that in.  Hopefully they address some of this after the patch, although I'm not exactly optimistic.

i get the aoe nerf but this would make kitgun arcanes basicly untrigerable and useless for moost kitguns ... if the arcanes that already exist will only work with 2 (bad) kitguns then whats the pont of having them in first place ? they could release new kitguns and kitgun arcanes and rebalance them but i doubt it, i believe they will become another useless crap like the 90% of uselles content this game now/still have

my problem is mainly that we will lose access to gimmicks like poower/efficiency on headshot kill or the sparks that can both be utilized in many builds

DE and playerbase is coonstantly crying about AOE and using only 1 weapon and not your whole kit but they are constantly burrying everything that is niche/gimmicky and non-aoe to the ground (or leving it behind just like kitguns themselves)... anything thats fun and powerfull gets nerfed, and what is useless and underpowered is newer touched again ... like how many years it has taken them to make spears semi-usefull ???

well lets hope for the best, with Rebb in lead it seems they are listening to feedback at least .. sorry foor rant

[Pakaku]

On 2022-09-04 at 1:37 AM, Lutesque said:

Catchmoon Had it's Headshot Multiplier Removed Ages Ago mate.... The Weapon is Actually Terrible Now 👀....

In Theory Sure.... In Practice... The Update Hasn't Even Launched yet and Kitguns are Already pretty Weak Compared to normal Weapons.... This Update is going to make Some of them Weaker Still.... Will they Be Fine?

I doubt it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯....

 

You sure about that? Most of mine are pretty reliable, and not all kitguns are AoE.

[TrapperCZE]

3 hours ago, Pakaku said:

You sure about that? Most of mine are pretty reliable, and not all kitguns are AoE.

depend on what kitgun you use and what kind of content you run, easy content where you oneshot everything sure you will get those headshot kills with just 1 projectiel but in endurance SP runs it dosnt work that way .... ,

bear in mind that with projectile+radial guns you either headshot oneshot kill with the first hit (projectile) which in higher end content is unlikely or status/secondary hits/secondary radials kill the target thus you DONT get headshot kill and you dont get second chance with second shot ... 

example: Sporelacer secondary, if you dont oneshot with the initial projectile, then you would need to NOT kill the target with the RADIAL or 3 BOMBLETS or 3 RADIALS FROM BOMBLETS all this multiplied by multishot and then multiplied by mirage (considering mirages dont count towards the arcane activation and multishot has diviance in aim) .. this means i have to oneshot headshot-kill enemy with the first 1 projectile OR then i have around 70 hits from single shot that the enmy must survive in order for me to have chance for another headshot hit (or in translation you need to make 230 base damage hit to head-oneshot SP endurance scaled enemy with headshot which may have tens of milions of EHP)
and im not even factoring accuarcy, projectile speed (wery slow) and projectile arching at distance
 

• Catchmoon & Rattleguts are in my opinion the only ones that can reliably aim at head, hit head, and get headshotkills ... you are not fighting for the headshot-kill with your own aoe, you can just continuosly hit teh head til lyou get the kill, you dont have to adjust and lead your aim in extreme ways, etc etc (altho the damage suffers in my opinion) 
• Sporelacer is hard to hit because of its heavy arching and travel time and in both cases the main damage is radial + grenades/bomblets + radial from grenades/bomblets (example above)
• Tombfinger can projectile headshot but the AoE (same as example above in lesser degree) + hard aiming ... the main thing is the primary charged AoE, the uncharged and secondary options are rare as panzer vulpaphyla when you are trying to get it 
• Vermsplicer  primary and secondary are no go cause of the hooming thats aimed at mid-body + its status "beam" weapon
• Gaze is beam status weapon so even if you headshot the status will likely eat the kill + you need to hold the beam on the head for a time, if not the sattus will get the kill, good luck having this accuarcy or sitting still and aiming in endurance SP... also the primary has AoE ball at the end of its beam so now you are fighting your own statuses and AoE

the headshot kill requiement would not be as bad for the Pax Bolt if the buff duration on it would be way longer, but since it has only 4s duration and you hardly notice if its even active or not .... it needs some changes

for Pax Seeker, if its supposed to only work with the non-aoe kitguns, so be it, but it sucks that the only secondaries with kitgun arcane slots dont have any good kitgun arcanes to use since they hardly ever proc and/or are just not worth using (looking at you Pax Soar, Pax Charge and Residual arcanes)

[Lutesque]

13 hours ago, Pakaku said:

You sure about that? Most of mine are pretty reliable, and not all kitguns are AoE.

Pretty Sure....

But then Again I don't Have Rivens for my Kitguns so maybe That's what I'm missing....

10 hours ago, TrapperCZE said:

 

bear in mind that with projectile+radial guns you either headshot oneshot kill with the first hit (projectile) which in higher end content is unlikely or status/secondary hits/secondary radials kill the target thus you DONT get headshot kill and you dont get second chance with second shot ... 

example: Sporelacer secondary, if you dont oneshot with the initial projectile, then you would need to NOT kill the target with the RADIAL or 3 BOMBLETS or 3 RADIALS FROM BOMBLETS all this multiplied by multishot and then multiplied by mirage (considering mirages dont count towards the arcane activation and multishot has diviance in aim) .. this means i have to oneshot headshot-kill enemy with the first 1 projectile OR then i have around 70 hits from single shot that the enmy must survive in order for me to have chance for another headshot hit (or in translation you need to make 230 base damage hit to head-oneshot SP endurance scaled enemy with headshot which may have tens of milions of EHP)
and im not even factoring accuarcy, projectile speed (wery slow) and projectile arching at distance

This is the Basis of my Belief that AoE Weapons can't Trigger Any Sort of Headshot Effects..... Which is Funny because @Tiltskillet claims He/She can get them to Headshot Reliably 👀.

The only Weapon I know I can Get Headshot Damage With, Semi Consistently with, is the Glaives Explosions.... But even then They don't Trigger Any of my "On Headshot" Arcanes or Register as Head Shots for things like Nightwave and Rivens....

It would be Nice DE slips up and Forgets to Remove Headshot Damage on Melee Weapon AoE's such as Glaive Explosions..... Since thats The only Way I can Do Steel Path Content with Ivara 😱 !!!

 

[0_The_F00l]

Let's break it down ,

Rattletguts (primary or secondary) is best for aimed focus ,

tombfinger (secondary ) , gaze (secondary) , catchmoon (primary and secondary) are more than capable of headshots with some skill.

Tombfinger (primary) and vermisplicer (primary or secondary) can get headshots but more on a lucky shot and less on actual skill cause you will likely kill with body shots or DoT effects. But vermisplicer should not be affected cause it does not have a radial component and should benefit from the bonus to headshots.

Gaze primary is a pain to handle and is probably the hardest to actually aim (i can't even see what I am hitting at times) 

Honestly , the ones that don't pair well with seeker are already AoE weapons , not sure you actually need the extra projectiles

Pax Bolt , being situational should ideally be paired with the right loadout for frame and weapon , not just any random weapon. Not every single mod needs to be practical for every single weapon.

[AegidiusF]

Le 04/09/2022 à 02:23, Uhkretor a dit :

That said, I'm glad the only Pax Arcane I'm going to use is the one that provides infinite ammo... And this is a decision I made since Fortuna was released and I saw the available Kitgun arcane list...

Me too, I only use Pax Charge to get an rechargeable battery magazine on my kitguns.

I just hope they will not change (or nef) this Arcane, as it makes all AoE kitguns ignore the Ammo changes they've made.

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This is the Basis of my Belief that AoE Weapons can't Trigger Any Sort of Headshot Effects..... Which is Funny because @Tiltskillet claims He/She can get them to Headshot Reliably 👀.

A few things:

• I certainly never made a statement like "I can get all AoEs to headshot constantly."  :P
• "AoE" weapons nearly always have a projectile component, and this projectile can headshot reliably.
• I haven't tested every weapon, but on the ones I have, radial components nearly always headshot if the projectile component headshots.  This includes weapons ranging from small AoEs like Kuva Chakkhur and Tombfinger secondary to large AoEs like Kogris and Ktonkor.
• Kuva Bramma and the Pentas are pretty reliable at getting headshots by detonating their projectiles over the heads of groups of enemies.
• Most AoE weapons do get a few incidental headshots just in the course of a more  typical playstyle with them where one isn't aiming in more than a general direction.
• I don't have time to record any of this for you at the moment, but much of it's really easy to observe.  One  of the simplest ways is by using Argon Scope and looking for the buff icon.

Most of this -should- be moot at some point today though when the patch lands.  So if you'd rather Test Things this time instead of just Believing Things, you don't have much time.

 

[Lutesque]

51 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

A few things:

• I certainly never made a statement like "I can get all AoEs to headshot constantly."  :P
• "AoE" weapons nearly always have a projectile component, and this projectile can headshot reliably.
• I haven't tested every weapon, but on the ones I have, radial components nearly always headshot if the projectile component headshots.  This includes weapons ranging from small AoEs like Kuva Chakkhur and Tombfinger secondary to large AoEs like Kogris and Ktonkor.
• Kuva Bramma and the Pentas are pretty reliable at getting headshots by detonating their projectiles over the heads of groups of enemies.
• Most AoE weapons do get a few incidental headshots just in the course of a more  typical playstyle with them where one isn't aiming in more than a general direction.
• I don't have time to record any of this for you at the moment, but much of it's really easy to observe.  One  of the simplest ways is by using Argon Scope and looking for the buff icon.

Most of this -should- be moot at some point today though when the patch lands.  So if you'd rather Test Things this time instead of just Believing Things, you don't have much time.

 

That's Basically What I Said... 😁...

 

[TrapperCZE]

So now its waaaay harder to get headshot kills (especialy in high SP content) on all but Rattleguts and Catchmoon to trigger Pax arcanes. 

Please consider changin the requiement for Pax Bolt and Pax Seeker to "%chance on headshot" instaed 
also Pax Bolt needs its buff duration to be longer or to apply to "next ability cast" without duration

considering kitguns fell of the meta and are now mostly forgoten, at least make the niche of theirs, taht being kitgun arcanes, good/fun/usefull/powerfull 

[TrapperCZE]

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Honestly , the ones that don't pair well with seeker are already AoE weapons , not sure you actually need the extra projectiles

Pax Bolt , being situational should ideally be paired with the right loadout for frame and weapon , not just any random weapon. Not every single mod needs to be practical for every single weapon.

i agree on the Seeker but disagree on Bolt 

Bolt is arcane taht gives strenght/efficiency , how is that supposed to be tied to any particular weapon ? should i be forced to use BAD weapon jsut to get warframe buff ? hell just the fact that i need to use kitgun in the first palce is bad enough, why to make it even worse by forcing use of BAD KITGUN ? 

Pax Bolt should be usable by any kitgun otherwise why does it even exist ?

not to mention the duration of the buff from Pax Bolt is already laughtably short but i still want it to be usefull otherwise there is ZERO need to use secondary at all 
hel leven with the ammo and aoe nerfs for me there is still zero reasons to use secondary outside those niche uses and buffs like Pax Bolt

[SenorClipClop]

Just tested a Chatchmoon Secondary with Pax Bolt and the Arcane still triggers with a headshot kill, even if the AoE damages them at the same time. Tested multiple time, same results every time. It's more difficult to make happen, since the Catchmoon staggers enemies and puts VFX in front of them so it's harder to line up the shots, but the arcane still absolutely works. It isn't as practical on an AoE kitgun anymore, but hey single-target secondaries need all the help they can get.