Ignis Wraith Bp research, a 2 year endeavour

[DarkSkysz]

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

You should read the gratitude posts for the trades.

This one made me curious... care to post a few?

  

2 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

If DE wanted to ban this behavior

I am 100% sure DE follow the good old lazy rule.

Call it 'free market' so we don't have to deal with anything about it.

[L3512]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Eh, I have meet a decent amount of naive people in Warframe. Naive in the sense, they might not necessarily have a good understanding of the value of Plat or certain items, because of the games style of progression, exclusivity, potential to progress through the game, other players attitudes towards such items, equivalent items etc 

Its why, when super new players make threads, most players try to recommend about how they should spend their initial free 50p/starting Plat, and how slots can be valuable, as opposed to say buying the Credits bundle. Slots don't really seem that exciting, or glamorous, but it really opens up the choices you have near the beginning, which then helps you progress and get mastery, and build up some momentum. 

Informed consent is different from consent. Rules can allow a player to sell Intensify for 500 Plat, but it can be dubious in other ways. You could even ask the purchasing player "hey, you know you can grind this Mod in game right?" then they could say yes... So, informed consent right? Possibly, but for all we know, in their mind, Intensify is a late game Mod, that takes months to earn, or may be behind some massive grind. If you ask them... "Most players would just give you this Mod for free, I have over 100, they drop like candy, you'll probably get one in 2 or 3 hours of playing, if this trade for 500p occurs you may be setting a record. Unless you are literally some ultra wealth Saudi Prince who can literally throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at the game, this trade just feels wrong.." Well, thats a whole other level of informed consent and transparency. 

Hard to incorporate such transparency into the games rules though, as how trades are currently done. So you sort of have to rely on the goodwill and morality/ethics of the players, especially those that understand/know more. Making new players feel informed, and that they are getting good value, is good for players and the game in general. Having new players feel cheated or ripped off, can discourage from future trades, which sucks, given how important it can be to the overall WF experience.

It is absolutely not up to a seller to inform the buyer, if you personally make a purchase on something IRL like a second hand car and find out latter that you overpaid by thousands of dollars because you were ignorant of the general value of said car, whose fault is that?

50 plat is a tiny price to pay for a good life lesson even if those buyers did not receive gifts. 

[KIREEK]

I cannot fake trades, nor could i simply pretend to do a 50pl trade and then give it away or simply not do the trade to begin with.
The trade needed to happen, doing a simple troll by ralying users would ultimately be punished, i understand many wanted that, but for the feedback (aka the toxicity) to be genuine, everything had to be done correctly step by step, even the trade itself.
With the trade done, all claims in chat and forums would always be a truthfull statement, if i said i sold dozens of bps, i had to work my way into those sales to make the claim, the idea was always how to make the message reveal that toxicity, so a few copy pastas were used.
1st you do the things, then you make the claim, why? because if excalated, support would simply find that the messages were indeed the truth.

Nobody here is pointing fingers at users, you can simply avoid the ordeal and continue the lies in your litle circles, if anyone clogged the system with reports, players (myself included) will never know if you did or not, but support does know, infact they were given intel before certain mass report waves happened, they were literally waiting for the players to appear.

 

[Saad]

8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I've been a person advocating changes in this game for 7 years now. What Kireek did is pretty much the only way to see a change about something very specific that doesn't affect the game at large in a reasonable time. You have people tracking Galvanized Mods not working for years now, a Codex bug Google spreadsheet that is also years old now, archived bug reports that are just decaying here on the Forums/Reddit/etc., and more. Reasonable timelines for these kinds of changes only come from exceptional attention to the issue.

It was either this or the discovery of an abusive Clan XP exploit or something to see this sort of thing addressed. It's like, what kind of situation usually drives change? Usually it's something negative with lots of attention towards it. I hope you can see how that works out.

I understand that trying to make change in a decade old game with bloated content is hard and almost feels impossible. All that feedback and reports yet the years old bugs still exist. I agree DE is to be blamed for it. But if you want to intentionally attract all the negative attention, create drama and act as the big bad trader "scamming" clueless players and then get hated for it, don't act surprised or whine about it.

Given how diverse the community is about changes and how quickly some changes were made in the past, it seems the most effective method is screaming at DE 24/7 everywhere by everyone on all the platforms. /s

[nslay]

3 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

This one made me curious... care to post a few?

It's not hard to find. Go look in trade forum for OP's posts. He actually managed to sell free stuff for 50 plat and posters thanked him! 

[DarkSkysz]

1 minute ago, L3512 said:

you were ignorant of the general value of said car, whose fault is that?

This is more about the people culture or even laws, than anything else.

Scamming is 'legal' is some places, while in others its a crime.

In my country, your exemple would end up in a law suit with the outcome being the scammer to return all the money, with some extras.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

2 minutes ago, L3512 said:

It is absolutely not up to a seller to inform the buyer, if you personally make a purchase on something IRL like a second hand car and find out latter that you overpaid by thousands of dollars because you were ignorant of the general value of said car, whose fault is that?

"Should do" =/= "Should have to do"... You're not breaking any rules by taking advantage of new players, but you're definitely not being nice.

[L3512]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

This has some merit, but also depends on the context. 

You know the Nigerian Prince scam emails? Well actually... they were scamming some people, but what you didn't know, is that they actually sent people Mansions and Yachts to people, and there really was a Prince! So all those people who were upset at elderly people being scammed, should have minded their own damn business... 

Obviously I am not saying you condone that, but we shouldn't vilify peoples empathy, or feeling injustice, especially if manipulation is purposefully being sewn. You can even have situations, where multiple parties are evoking self righteous behaviour. It can be complex and tricky to try and actually separate and untangle all the motivations and behaviour in certain scenarios. 

That's an actual scam and criminal behaviour.

Listing something for a legitimate sale is not, if you gave the player 50P you got an Ignis W.

[--TL--Sui]

1 minute ago, DarkSkysz said:

In my country, your exemple would end up in a law suit with the outcome being the scammer to return all the money, with some extras.

That's a regulated market then, if people or businesses aren't allowed to sell things outside of a certain price range. Warframe is long known for having a free market, so here it is perfectly allowed.

[nslay]

21 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

This one made me curious... care to post a few?

Here you go.. back on my PC. Here's an example... read the thread:

He presumably did the sales and players posted in gratitude. Yeah, it feels wrong... but maybe players like this experience. Do people like being ripped off or scammed? I think I read about Ponzi or some other notorious historical figure who had a quote about people paying for the illusion or something like that! But if they're happy, who are we to judge?

EDIT: Here's Ponzi's quote

Quote

"Even if they never got anything for it, it was cheap at that price. Without malice aforethought, I had given them the best show that was ever staged in their territory since the landing of the Pilgrims! It was easily worth fifteen million bucks to watch me put the thing over."

I don't know how else to explain happy players who forked over 50 plat for free stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi#Death

[DarkSkysz]

5 minutes ago, --TL--Sui said:

if people or businesses aren't allowed to sell things outside of a certain price range

You can sell whatever you want, for whatever price you like. I am talking about scams. When you promisse a thing and deliver another. Like taking water from a public fountain and saying its 'imported from god's garden'...

[ThommiX]

Wow the scammer of new players and probably most hated scum in the game comes actually trying to justify his intentional misleading scam practice. Amazing,some people never learn. Only toxicity around the ignis wraith bp came from Kireek and nobody else. He's trying to fool you guys again. LOL

All the years ive played, you got the bp for free without anything extra, this guy is just making up stories now.

[L3512]

5 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

This is more about the people culture or even laws, than anything else.

Scamming is 'legal' is some places, while in others its a crime.

In my country, your exemple would end up in a law suit with the outcome being the scammer to return all the money, with some extras.

Well not in most western countries I can think of, unless of course the car had unmentioned mechanical issues or such in which case there are forms of buyer protection.

 

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

"Should do" =/= "Should have to do"... You're not breaking any rules by taking advantage of new players, but you're definitely not being nice.

Wake me up when "nice" means anything or can be relied upon, if new players went into a deal with the idea that the seller is not acting in their best interest or is not in fact nice, maybe they would not be taken advantageous of.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

2 minutes ago, L3512 said:

It is absolutely not up to a seller to inform the buyer, if you personally make a purchase on something IRL like a second hand car and find out latter that you overpaid by thousands of dollars because you were ignorant of the general value of said car, whose fault is that?

50 plat is a tiny price to pay for a good life lesson even if those buyers did not receive gifts. 

 

Did not say it was "up to the seller to inform the buyer". Also if we are talking absolutes, well, then a lot of options are available, including some ridiculous examples. Which is why we shouldn't try to frame arguments or points that way. 

Being an advocate for transparent, friendly and ethical trading, is not the same as suggesting that people don't or shouldn't have any responsibilities when making purchases. So please, do not try to reframe that point or conflate the two. 

Also with your example, it depends on the specifics, and certain laws. I won't waste our time by trying to think of hypothetical situations (or established precedents), where someone may actually be entitled to compensation or a refund based on misunderstandings or errors according to certain legal frameworks, because I could, and I assume if you wanted to, you could as well, but such instances would rely and depend on the context and specifics, and generalised ideas and generalised points and arguments are different. 

As in "transparency, ethical, moral trading is good" and "players knowing and practicing responsible purchasing is good", both can co-exist. 

50 Plat is relative, it can mean different things to different players. Life lessons can also differ in value. Lots of potential variables to explore, if one wanted to go down that route. Its also unnecessary to myself personally, as I am not sure what your point is, other than to be argumentative (this is my life lesson to you... though... it may not be received as such... thus, in actuality, being my real life lesson. Now i expect you to defend all my positions and points, lest be the victim of self righteousness. See how that sounds?) 

In short, I am just saying that I value transparent, friendly and ethical trading. Generally. OP's situation is way more complex, and a whole other thing, that can't really be approached so casually or simply. Its a factor though. 

[--TL--Sui]

5 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

You can sell whatever you want, for whatever price you like. I am talking about scams. When you promisse a thing and deliver another. Like taking water from a public fountain and saying its 'imported from god's garden'...

Yeah, that would be if he claimed that weapons built from his blueprints did more damage or were in any way superior to others. Not the case here though, so it doesn't apply. And people have been banned for actual scams similar to the one you described in the past.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

13 minutes ago, L3512 said:

That's an actual scam and criminal behaviour.

Listing something for a legitimate sale is not, if you gave the player 50P you got an Ignis W.

 

My apologies, you missed the point I was making. 

I'll try another approach. 

If you see someone you think is being treated unfairly? Do you intervene or mind your own business? If you do intervene, would you have a motivation behind why? What might it be?

[--RV--Cat]

Post a video of your inbox showing the hundreds of "[X player] has opened the (gift) you sent them." If you want your name and reputation to be repaired.

[--PV--MusicManiac]

It would be nice to show people evidence of said gifts sent back to the buyers. Otherwise it's just a word of you and your friends without any screenshots of people buying Ignis and later, them opening gifts. Saying "It's been known for years by some of my friends" doesn't mean that it's 100% true, it might as well just mean that you prepared beforehand. Show your inbox with hundreds of sent gifts of formas bundle, show any kind of spreadhseet where buyers are listed and screenshot with sent gift is present, show **evidence**

[LillyRaccune]

Were you breaking any rules, no. Were your actions morally questionable, yes. You wrote to describe your motives... you said you were only doing this to get DE's attention... no, I think your motives were not pure. Do I think poorly of you because of that, yes.

Do you deserve to be bullied, no. Never ever. I'm sorry you received death threats and worse.

I hope in the future you are able to build a better reputation. Good luck to you sir.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

14 hours ago, L3512 said:

Wake me up when "nice" means anything or can be relied upon, if new players went into a deal with the idea that the seller is not acting in their best interest or is not in fact nice, maybe they would not be taken advantageous of.

As long as we're aware that taking advantage of new players isn't a nice thing to do, you don't have to care about being nice. Believe me, I'll take a few deals biased in my favor, but I'm not gonna pretend to anyone that it's a moral thing to do. Sure, they messed up by trusting me too much, but at the end of the day I still did something unkind, and those who are trying to be kind should not do the same.

[L3512]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

Did not say it was "up to the seller to inform the buyer". Also if we are talking absolutes, well, then a lot of options are available, including some ridiculous examples. Which is why we shouldn't try to frame arguments or points that way. 

Being an advocate for transparent, friendly and ethical trading, is not the same as suggesting that people don't or shouldn't have any responsibilities when making purchases. So please, do not try to reframe that point or conflate the two. 

Also with your example, it depends on the specifics, and certain laws. I won't waste our time by trying to think of hypothetical situations (or established precedents), where someone may actually be entitled to compensation or a refund based on misunderstandings or errors according to certain legal frameworks, because I could, and I assume if you wanted to, you could as well, but such instances would rely and depend on the context and specifics, and generalised ideas and generalised points and arguments are different. 

As in "transparency, ethical, moral trading is good" and "players knowing and practicing responsible purchasing is good", both can co-exist. 

50 Plat is relative, it can mean different things to different players. Life lessons can also differ in value. Lots of potential variables to explore, if one wanted to go down that route. Its also unnecessary to myself personally, as I am not sure what your point is, other than to be argumentative (this is my life lesson to you... though... it may not be received as such... thus, in actuality, being my real life lesson. Now i expect you to defend all my positions and points, lest be the victim of self righteousness. See how that sounds?) 

In short, I am just saying that I value transparent, friendly and ethical trading. Generally. OP's situation is way more complex, and a whole other thing, that can't really be approached so casually or simply. Its a factor though. 

I'm not tracking most your second half, however the "I am just saying that I value transparent, friendly and ethical trading." is naturally agreeable.

 

4 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

My apologies, you missed the point I was making. 

I'll try another approach. 

If you see someone you think is being treated unfairly? Do you intervene or mind your own business? If you do intervene, would you have a motivation behind why? What might it be?

As a buyer do you not treat a seller unfairly if you get a good deal? do you offer extra plat to make them even with market value?

As you say the value of 50 plat is relative so maybe it means nothing to a new player and they just want an Ignis w. From the position of a casual observer you have access to very little information on both buyer and seller, their resources or motives. All people can do is put info out there and hope that both buyers and sellers educate themselves.  

[L3512]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

As long as we're aware that taking advantage of new players isn't a nice thing to do, you don't have to care about being nice. Believe me, I'll take a few deals biased in my behavior, but I'm not gonna pretend to anyone that it's a moral thing to do. Sure, they messed up by trusting me too much, but at the end of the day I still did something unkind, and those who are trying to be kind should not do the same.

Treat people how you like to be treated, simple. Relying on the inherent goodness of people? Naivety.

[nslay]

Just now, L3512 said:

Treat people how you like to be treated, simple. Relying on the inherent goodness of people? Naivety.

Better rule: Treat people how they want to be treated.

[L3512]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

Better rule: Treat people how they want to be treated.

We're mind readers now? Great hard and fast rule.

[nslay]

Just now, L3512 said:

We're mind readers now? Great hard and fast rule.

I don't know. Learned it in mandatory yearly training.