One simple Styanax change please

[HoshunMk201]

3 часа назад, Ceadeus сказал:

I was using bad in terms of viability, though technically speaking, yes, frames that do not mesh well with the overarching design of the game are by definition bad designs regardless of how well contained they are within themselves and the fact of the matter is that the game is drifting more and more to killing and damage being the only important things at all.  Limbo is the only one out of that list who could arguably be considered viable only for certain modes, and even then that's only because those modes run in direct contrast to the goals set out by every single other piece of content in the game (IE: mobile defense, spy, etc where killing literally doesn't matter though even then you're losing out on resource drops so arguably still a poor choice depending on your goals as a player).

His armor stripping is effective but it's heavily localized making him less effective at that job than other choices, including as I've already point out, ones that don't even bother to strip armor and simply nuke everything through their armor.

Less effective not mandatory means less fun or interesting, so i think that is a matter of personal choice, but i understood your point and it is more about the whole game and enemy design rather than warframe's.

[Ceadeus]

 

1 hour ago, HoshunMk201 said:

Less effective not mandatory means less fun or interesting, so i think that is a matter of personal choice, but i understood your point and it is more about the whole game and enemy design rather than warframe's.

There will always be a case to be made for fun and interesting gameplay but all the more reason I don't see his damage output falling off after sortie level as "fun" or "interesting".  Just a lack of proper foresight to scale properly.

[HoshunMk201]

32 минуты назад, Ceadeus сказал:

There will always be a case to be made for fun and interesting gameplay but all the more reason I don't see his damage output falling off after sortie level as "fun" or "interesting".  Just a lack of proper foresight to scale properly.

And that s why I use him with Ghuandao. And, to be honest, i hoped that his spear and shield would be exalted

[Ceadeus]

1 minute ago, HoshunMk201 said:

And that s why I use him with Ghuandao. And, to be honest, i hoped that his spear and shield would be exalted

And to me that's just a bandaid, not an actual solution.  Like I told the other guy, DE constantly says how they want to promote build diversity but for that to be possible things have to be viable on their own without being dependent on other things to prop them up, otherwise we just always see the same metas resurfacing.  Hence, I fully maintain that Styanax needs a damage buff and I think that my proposed solution would be a good way to get that without just pumping his numbers by default that would actually synergize very well with the rest of his kit, and in actuality would further promote build diversity as it would make dumping more shields onto him largely beneficial.

[Ceadeus]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

...

I'm just making a point.  If we're going to say he shouldn't get good damage output because he's some kind of "support frame" (which he isn't as his theme would make no sense at all to class him as a support) then shouldn't he be a GOOD support frame?  But at the moment that narrative doesn't hold up because his support abilities are outclassed.  What narrative does hold up?  That he's meant to be a combatant with utility to help him in a fight but right now his damage output is a bit lacking to keep up with the big boy DPS.

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

So he's outclassed by Harrow and Trinity in every way and can effectively be tossed right in the dumpster.  Got it.

[Ceadeus]

28 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You're the one who claimed he was a support.  So give me literally any possible way in which I'm wrong if that's the case.  Both Harrow and Trinity vastly outclass his support capabilities and by simply subsuming any of the available armor stripping abilities onto either they would also outclass his armor stripping.  You could just say you've been wrong from the start.

[Pakaku]

It doesn't seem like he needs damage when he can easily armour-strip. Bring a good gun or melee and you're set.

[Pakaku]

9 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

You're the one who claimed he was a support.  So give me literally any possible way in which I'm wrong if that's the case.  Both Harrow and Trinity vastly outclass his support capabilities and by simply subsuming any of the available armor stripping abilities onto either they would also outclass his armor stripping.  You could just say you've been wrong from the start.

If you have to subsume armour stripping onto them, well, that doesn't count. They can't do that on their own, helminth is basically a "cheat menu" in those cases.

Harrow is great but takes a lot of inputs to keep it up. Trinity is mostly just a healer and energy generator. Styanex seems built to be good at a lot of valuable things, so being less effective is a reasonable tradeoff.

[Ceadeus]

1 minute ago, Pakaku said:

It doesn't seem like he needs damage when he can easily armour-strip. Bring a good gun or melee and you're set.

I've already addressed how the forced reliance on an external weapon only serves to keep Styanax from entering the game as a proper meta pick, not to mention the active undermining of the idea of build diversity that DE has been promoting if the frame is incapable of competing on its own.  Why would I bother taking Styanax for armor stripping + the need for a weapon when I could simply take a better frame who will kill the enemies outright without any need for a weapon OR armor stripping?

Again, the fact of the matter is that frames that can't compete on the damage stage are simply bad frames anymore.  That's just how the game has evolved.

[Ceadeus]

1 minute ago, Pakaku said:

If you have to subsume armour stripping onto them, well, that doesn't count. They can't do that on their own, helminth is basically a "cheat menu" in those cases.

Harrow is great but takes a lot of inputs to keep it up. Trinity is mostly just a healer and energy generator. Styanex seems built to be good at a lot of valuable things, so being less effective is a reasonable tradeoff.

How is it "cheating" to use Helminth abilities but implying he should be forcibly reliant on a weapon is something that should simply be factored into the balance of his kit?  You're applying double standards here.

[Leqesai]

14 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

You're the one who claimed he was a support.  So give me literally any possible way in which I'm wrong if that's the case.  Both Harrow and Trinity vastly outclass his support capabilities and by simply subsuming any of the available armor stripping abilities onto either they would also outclass his armor stripping.  You could just say you've been wrong from the start.

Nah man, I am not going to go back and forth with you on this. Feel free to believe what you believe.

[Pakaku]

1 minute ago, Ceadeus said:

How is it "cheating" to use Helminth abilities but implying he should be forcibly reliant on a weapon is something that should simply be factored into the balance of his kit?  You're applying double standards here.

Because you're shoving armour stripping on a frame who didn't originally have that. Any customization like that comes after the initial warframe's design, so it's not a fair comparison to unmodified warframes.

[Ceadeus]

5 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Because you're shoving armour stripping on a frame who didn't originally have that. Any customization like that comes after the initial warframe's design, so it's not a fair comparison to unmodified warframes.

And a weapon doesn't come pre-equipped in their hands either.  So?  Both cases you're applying extra things outside the scope of the original design.  The irony is just that in the case of Helminth abilities the aforementioned frames can literally take Styanax's exact armor stripping ability for themselves and completely nullify that leg up and he's left with his outclassed support abilities, and sub-par damage output.  Harrow even beats him on bonus crit chance and CC.  So the more we look at it, the more it sounds like Harrow is just a better Styanax in every way since you're imposing a weapon as a requirement either way.

[HoshunMk201]

38 минут назад, Ceadeus сказал:

And a weapon doesn't come pre-equipped in their hands either.  So?  Both cases you're applying extra things outside the scope of the original design.  The irony is just that in the case of Helminth abilities the aforementioned frames can literally take Styanax's exact armor stripping ability for themselves and completely nullify that leg up and he's left with his outclassed support abilities, and sub-par damage output.  Harrow even beats him on bonus crit chance and CC.  So the more we look at it, the more it sounds like Harrow is just a better Styanax in every way since you're imposing a weapon as a requirement either way.

I believe in Harrow supremacy

[Pakaku]

37 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

And a weapon doesn't come pre-equipped in their hands either.  So?  Both cases you're applying extra things outside the scope of the original design.  The irony is just that in the case of Helminth abilities the aforementioned frames can literally take Styanax's exact armor stripping ability for themselves and completely nullify that leg up and he's left with his outclassed support abilities, and sub-par damage output.  Harrow even beats him on bonus crit chance and CC.  So the more we look at it, the more it sounds like Harrow is just a better Styanax in every way since you're imposing a weapon as a requirement either way.

All warframes have weapon slots, therefore are all on even ground there. Warframes are not designed around anticpating players subsuming anything via Helminth, therefore you cannot include Helminth abilities in a fair comparison.

[Pakaku]

2 minutes ago, HoshunMk201 said:

I believe in Harrow supremacy

Harrow is amazing, but like I said, requires a lot of inputs to achieve being amazing. He also takes a decent amount of ability micromanagement. Most frames just press one input and... that's it. So balance-wise, Harrow is allowed to get away with more

[HoshunMk201]

Только что, Pakaku сказал:

Harrow is amazing, but like I said, requires a lot of inputs to achieve being amazing. He also takes a decent amount of ability micromanagement. Most frames just press one input and... that's it

Baruuk's annihilation set goes brrr...

[Ceadeus]

1 minute ago, Pakaku said:

All warframes have weapon slots, therefore are all on even ground there. Warframes are not designed around anticpating players subsuming anything via Helminth, therefore you cannot include Helminth abilities in a fair comparison.

That doesn't hold up at all though.  I could just as easily say all Warframes have room for one subsumed ability.  For that matter then I can reduce your weapon statement back to being restrictive of assuming players have good weapons.  If it's unfair to assume subsumed abilities, surely it's also unfair to assume weapons that are considered good for steel path+ content.  As I said, you're literally just applying double standards here.  Not to mention nothing you've said actually addresses the points I've made and instead simply says "well just do something else instead for the sake of it" at which point why even bother with anything?  Why bother making frames at all anymore if they're not allowed to be good and are instead relegated to weapon accessories?

[Ceadeus]

3 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Harrow is amazing, but like I said, requires a lot of inputs to achieve being amazing. He also takes a decent amount of ability micromanagement. Most frames just press one input and... that's it. So balance-wise, Harrow is allowed to get away with more

He's really not that complex. No more so than Styanax.  And yet as we've already covered with a single subsume Harrow outclasses him in every way.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Hmmm... Damage of his abilities...

With 200% Strength to strip armour and shields completely, which is possible without bothering with Blind Rage so you don't have to waste Energy, you also deal 3000 Slash with a guaranteed proc with every Javelin.

With his 3 active, then going 1 and 2 before casting 4, his damage would be approximately 90,000 on the grouped enemies.

Considering the Health scaling of the average test enemies, which would include a Corrupted Heavy Gunner and a Bombard, after you strip armour, 90k Slash Damage will kill up to level 780 or so.

So I would only imagine that you're not actually using his Defense Stripping function in combination with his grouping function in order to deal concentrated damage to large groups of enemies. Because if you're not doing that, then the 90k Slash would only scale to around level 54.

But, importantly, the Bleed damage from that set of procs would stack to kill that same Gunner in approximately four seconds anyway.

Still, not everyone's so patient as all that.

My point is that Armour and Shield stripping is important. That converts the damage that Styanax deals into almost raw numbers, no mitigation from the silly scaling EHP.

Don't underestimate that.

[Ceadeus]

35 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hmmm... Damage of his abilities...

With 200% Strength to strip armour and shields completely, which is possible without bothering with Blind Rage so you don't have to waste Energy, you also deal 3000 Slash with a guaranteed proc with every Javelin.

With his 3 active, then going 1 and 2 before casting 4, his damage would be approximately 90,000 on the grouped enemies.

Considering the Health scaling of the average test enemies, which would include a Corrupted Heavy Gunner and a Bombard, after you strip armour, 90k Slash Damage will kill up to level 780 or so.

So I would only imagine that you're not actually using his Defense Stripping function in combination with his grouping function in order to deal concentrated damage to large groups of enemies. Because if you're not doing that, then the 90k Slash would only scale to around level 54.

But, importantly, the Bleed damage from that set of procs would stack to kill that same Gunner in approximately four seconds anyway.

Still, not everyone's so patient as all that.

My point is that Armour and Shield stripping is important. That converts the damage that Styanax deals into almost raw numbers, no mitigation from the silly scaling EHP.

Don't underestimate that.

Great on paper, not how it works out in practice.  In reality, with even just level 180 gunners (far off from your 780) armor stripping, grouping, and hitting with a 200% strength 4 still leaves survivors, a good number with more than half of their health remaining.  Mind you these aren't even steel path enemies these are just regular 180's.  Like I said, I don't think Styanax is far behind the mark he should be, but he is behind the mark.  Especially if we take a frame like Gauss who contains the armor stripping, damage, grouping, and CC elements all in 1 ability (granted you need to be at 100% gauge but anybody who's played Gauss knows that basically happens automatically if you're not doing some AFK strat).  Using Gauss' armor stripping ability we can actually kill the entire group with "1" cast (technically 2 because you need the cold then the heat proc for the armor strip but you get my point).

I haven't underestimated anything here, but I also haven't reduced Styanax to a vacuum where no other frames exist to compare him against.

[sunderthefirmament]

7 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

Both Harrow and Trinity vastly outclass his support capabilities and by simply subsuming any of the available armor stripping abilities onto either they would also outclass his armor stripping. 

At this point, new frames are going to be variations on a theme.  They're going to overlap.  They're not going to be carving out new niches or having as much game changing impact as, say, a Nova or Saryn.  DE seems to be moving away from that degree of power and influence for players.  Styanax is a blend of a few more supportive frames.  There are traces of Harrow and Trinity in there, but also Night Equinox.  Styanax surpasses Night Equinox's shield-on-kill effects, and has the benefit of drawing aggro as well (though I'm not sure how noticeable or effective that is in most content).

 

I haven't completed my Styanax build yet, but he's been enjoyable to play and holds up fine in Steel Path so far.  The reliable shield-on-kill effect is probably going to be his biggest draw for me, along with his passive.  I haven't finalized my opinion on him, but he's impressing me more than Gyre and Yareli.  I'm one of those weirdos that thinks Caliban is over all really good, so I won't compare those two.

 

My biggest complaints about Styanax are his appearance (color channels mainly, and the pecs...), and his glitches.  DE didn't really test for animation cancels with him, and it shows.  You can loop multiple powers together in weird ways with him, and mess with the camera.  He needs some polish.  Sadly, DE doesn't seem too interested in polishing frames post release anymore.  But I digress.

[Hawk197]

3 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

Great on paper, not how it works out in practice.  In reality, with even just level 180 gunners (far off from your 780) armor stripping, grouping, and hitting with a 200% strength 4 still leaves survivors, a good number with more than half of their health remaining.  Mind you these aren't even steel path enemies these are just regular 180's.  Like I said, I don't think Styanax is far behind the mark he should be, but he is behind the mark.  Especially if we take a frame like Gauss who contains the armor stripping, damage, grouping, and CC elements all in 1 ability (granted you need to be at 100% gauge but anybody who's played Gauss knows that basically happens automatically if you're not doing some AFK strat).  Using Gauss' armor stripping ability we can actually kill the entire group with "1" cast (technically 2 because you need the cold then the heat proc for the armor strip but you get my point).

I haven't underestimated anything here, but I also haven't reduced Styanax to a vacuum where no other frames exist to compare him against.

So you're metric of damage is how many survivors are left after the cast of an ability? By that logic, status has no place anywhere, so we should straight up remove Armors, Shields, and Flesh resistances, with Elemental and IPS damages. When I measure damage, I see how many bodies are on the ground, and how many are going to die by status effects, since Slash is dealing damage still. I'm able to kill 190s reliably, with any remaining enemies suffering Bleed. Bleed, in case you don't know or have forgotten, deals True damage, which is a hidden damage type that has no strengths or weaknesses, and by passes Damage Reduction from armor. So while my 190 corrupt heavy gunner is still alive for a second, it's only a second.

Now compare that to a frame like Mesa, who is an amazing DPS frame, but doesn't have nearly the same tools. Mesa is able to kill most stuff reasonably fast but doesn't have the same tools, so if she runs into something like a lv 500 CHG, you're going to suffer pretty hard since Regulators don't deal enough damage and your kit doesn't have alot of team impact besides Shooting Gallery. Compare that to Styanax who can move and use abilities while in Last Stand to cause Bleed, who can survive with the use SG, buff allies with energy and shield regen, strip armor, cc, while also causing some damage. 

We can also take your example of Gauss. Gauss is an amazing frame who has a perfect kit for every situation he runs into. He can zoom away, DR, armor strip, group or push back enemies, make everything even more potent with his 4, and has a passive that's top tier for all weapons. But he's a selfish frame as well. He doesn't support the team with buffs, and he doesn't really deal damage with anything besides weapons. Compare that to Styanax, who has armor stripping, damage, grouping and pushing back enemies, buffs allies, take heat off allies, and has a passive that (for now) makes all weapons deal more crit. 

NONE of this is to say Styanax is better or worse, just that Styanax has a different playstyle and has things to offer that other frames don't bring to the table. Each and every frame has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses. Mesa is all about that damage with her Regulators and Shooting Gallery buffing weapon damage, with Shattering Shield reflecting some damage back, but tends to fall off harder once levels start getting higher due to scaling. Gauss can do nearly everything, but if he's caught unaware and get's stuck without ammo and/or energy he's dead. Styanax can can mob pretty easily thanks to his 1 and 4, can armor strip most things with his 2, and buff everyone with his 3, but he suffers damage wise against anything that can either cancel powers or are immune to statue/powers, and anything that doesn't suffer from Bleed like MOAs. Of course there are more strengths and weaknesses for each and every frame in the game, I could easily build Styanax in a way that helps his damage output but I lose some cc, or I could go more support but lose my damage. I could go harder into his passive and give up some casting mods, or I could go hard into strength but lose some range. Same goes or Gauss, Mesa, Sevagoth, Ember, Excalibur, Volt, Loki, and everyone else.

[Ceadeus]

5 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

At this point, new frames are going to be variations on a theme.  They're going to overlap.  They're not going to be carving out new niches or having as much game changing impact as, say, a Nova or Saryn.  DE seems to be moving away from that degree of power and influence for players.  Styanax is a blend of a few more supportive frames.  There are traces of Harrow and Trinity in there, but also Night Equinox.  Styanax surpasses Night Equinox's shield-on-kill effects, and has the benefit of drawing aggro as well (though I'm not sure how noticeable or effective that is in most content).

 

I haven't completed my Styanax build yet, but he's been enjoyable to play and holds up fine in Steel Path so far.  The reliable shield-on-kill effect is probably going to be his biggest draw for me, along with his passive.  I haven't finalized my opinion on him, but he's impressing me more than Gyre and Yareli.  I'm one of those weirdos that thinks Caliban is over all really good, so I won't compare those two.

 

My biggest complaints about Styanax are his appearance (color channels mainly, and the pecs...), and his glitches.  DE didn't really test for animation cancels with him, and it shows.  You can loop multiple powers together in weird ways with him, and mess with the camera.  He needs some polish.  Sadly, DE doesn't seem too interested in polishing frames post release anymore.  But I digress.

The problem is that Equinox has INSANE nuke potential which is what allows Equinox to continue to be viable.  I have no problem with there being overlap of frames and the point I was making with Harrow and Trinity was not that there shouldn't be similarities but that if we're going to call Styanax a "support frame" as the person who originally made that comment did then we have to compare his potential as a support, which at the moment is completely outshined and would still indicate Styanax is in need of further buffs to hold any place.  Frankly, I don't think he's a support frame as that makes no sense for a spartan frame to be, hence why I'd rather see his damage potential boosted just a bit more so that he doesn't require such hyper-niche builds or full reliance on a weapon to compete in steel path compared to other DPS frames.  That way he can tote his combat effectiveness as his main theme as one would expect of a spartan frame and his team contributions can just be additional value to his kit that help to cement his own place in the lineup of frames.