Dragon keys change suggestion

[Cerikus]

EDIT: Based on suggestion from a fellow Tenno I want to add something important. My suggestion is only one possible solution I personally prefer, but it is probably a bad suggestion, because the main problem is bad UI - gear wheel and interaction with it. That's the main problem and should be adressed.

This weeks nightwave act Vault looter has reminded me again how annoying is having to equip and unequip dragon keys. It would be better, if we could just leave them in our gear wheel to be used whenever we stumble upon Deimos vaults.

However! We obviously can't do it, because the negative effects are annyoing. Harmless, but annyoing. Especially the speed one, so we have to equip, unequip, equip, unequip... It's a feature from a time when the negative effects were an actual threat.

I suggest removing the negative effects of Dragon keys, so they can simply be a gear item we can carry around in case we need them.

P.S. inb4 someone comes explaining at me how Decaying Dragon Keys are essential to shieldgating abuse, I don't care. It's a loophole DE should have patched a long time ago. And as it happens my suggestion would be also be an elegant and justified way to solve that problem.

 

[BiancaRoughfin]

I dont mind the DragonKeys having their effects, they can be useful in some cases should players want to add some more challenge into their game.

23 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

P.S. inb4 someone comes explaining at me how Decaying Dragon Keys are essential to shieldgating abuse, I don't care. It's a loophole DE should have patched a long time ago.

A simple solution would be for DE to simply make the Decaying Dragon Key also disable Shield Gating, that way players cant exploit it.

[Cerikus]

8 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I dont mind the DragonKeys having their effects, they can be useful in some cases should players want to add some more challenge into their game.

A simple solution would be for DE to simply make the Decaying Dragon Key also disable Shield Gating, that way players cant exploit it.

I think it would be better to split the functionality into two different gear items then:
1) simple Dragon keys to open vaults
2) Ascaris - They could even make more than 4 of them and there could even be nightwave challange to finish a mission with Ascaris equiped.

[(PSN)c1234567890alvi]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb BiancaRoughfin:

I dont mind the DragonKeys having their effects, they can be useful in some cases should players want to add some more challenge into their game.

A simple solution would be for DE to simply make the Decaying Dragon Key also disable Shield Gating, that way players cant exploit it.

What's so wrong with players using their knowledge and the tools they are given? Unlike Wukong Aoe/Twin spam, shield gating (yes, even with Decay Dragon Key) actually requires you to stay on your toes. And if you want to sweat a little more, you can always take it out your inventory. But I find it a unfair towards players that enjoy using it, to just want to take it away from them just because you feel like the game got too easy.

Do certain parts of your body grow if you play a harder game? No. 
Does it make you a better person, knowing that you just made the game harder for a large array of players? No. Will the game get better just because this "loophole" gets fixed? No. 

One of Warframe's big selling points is to be able to play it in a large multitude of ways and if the game is too easy to you, well, nobody forbids you to take an unmodded frame and weapon to Steel Path or something. Yes, I do sometimes yearn for more challenging (and rewarding!) content. But with all the tools we have in the game, DE should focus on making challenging content by making more elaborate mechanics and force us to change our arsenal up a bit imho, not by taking those tools away from us.

[BiancaRoughfin]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

What's so wrong with players using their knowledge and the tools they are given?

"Unintended Mechanic", therefore Exploit and the fact Devs were fascinated that players came up with it and shrugged it off during a Devstream doesnt mean "Ok".

[(PSN)c1234567890alvi]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb BiancaRoughfin:

"Unintended Mechanic", therefore Exploit and the fact Devs were fascinated that players came up with it and shrugged it off during a Devstream doesnt mean "Ok".

Again, so what if it is an unintended mechanic? Warframe is large with nearly unlimited tools. Ofc there are some unintended mechanics. And sometimes those actually spice things up. Look at Devil May Cry 4, Guard Flying was certainly not intended yet it lead to some truly interesting combo videos.

Wukong/AoE spam lowered the play quality in coop so it certainly it coming. But this? Does it affect your experience in any way during gameplay if a teammate abuses shield gating? I only see an advantage in my teammates staying alive and me not having to babysit them.

 

[Hobie-wan]

Maybe they could make a 'Dragon keychain' toggle. Put the keys you have/want on that and then there's a toggle either in the modding screen (and so also attached to a specific layout) or have it on Nav like the Steel Path toggle. That way it is at least 1 or two clicks to turn them on and off instead of going arsenal > gear > whirl to end of wheel > click > find in list > repeat.

*edit*

Heck, make it a general keychain/pouch that you can also put the fomorian and jackal event items in so you can just turn them on when those are going on, but back off when they aren't so they're not taking space in your gear wheel all the time. Or those could be changed to just count if you have some built and in inventory for QOL.

[Mazifet]

Ok so what is peoples problem with shield gating via decaying dragon key? it literally allows squishy frames to survive in high levels without having super niche builds that need you to press 30 buttons a second.

It doesn't effect other players negatively at all, and it encourages diversity instead of everyone just playing tanky and invis frames like Inaros and Loki.

You could even go as far to say it positively affects teammates as you wont get downed meaning they don't have to worry about you dying.

[Birdframe_Prime]

So... regardless of the Shield Gating meta (which I think is going to leave us when DE get around to doing something about Shields overall, since DE hate 'negative modding' and 'gear exploits' to achieve things), I can't see DE ever doing what you're asking.

Why?

Because it's the actual point of the Dragon Keys.

Dragon Keys are supposed to be a meaningful self-nerf to the player, a trade-off to get the more powerful mods that are in the Key Vaults. The fact that you can functionally scale past the down-sides with current modding and weapons is actually something that needs to be addressed in the same way as the AoE meta needed addressing.

The Corrupted Mods are essential to many builds. Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, Fleeting Expertise, Narrow Minded and Overextended feature so prominently across the game that getting them is often essential to making some frames into the powerhouses they can be. Even some of the weapon ones, like Critical Deceleration being the only Crit mod for Shotguns that offers more than 90% where all the other weapon types have at least 150% with something like Point Strike.

So, getting them is supposed to be dangerous. It's supposed to be a trade-off the same way that the mods themselves are a trade-off, reducing your survivability, speed or damage in order to gain the mod. (Side note, this is why I think DE are going to address the shield-gate meta, because the Dragon Key is supposed to be a nerf, not a buff, to your survivability.)

This is similar to getting a Nightmare Mod, where you take on a mission that has a hazard, some kind of drawback, in order to geth a mod that's more powerful than a regular mod, such as Lethal Torrent or Shred.

Is it annoying to continuously add and remove them? Sure.

How about, instead of removing the down-side from them, we equip them on mission start and it automatically removes them after mission end? So, just like a Fissure mission, we make Vault missions a dedicated mode where the goal itself is to unlock the Vault as well as complete the mission. You choose to equip up to all four of the keys from your inventory the same as you would a Relic, and then you go into the mission. You could even do it with Steel Path to make it tougher, and when you're going co-op you then get a lower cap of how many keys you can equip too (so with four players, each can only equip one, with three a player has to equip an extra one, and in a duo a player can choose up to three or balance it with two each).

In tandem with DE addressing the shield gating problem (by buffing shields as an EHP source would be a great idea), this would mean that dragon keys are literally only ever applied in Vault runs, not in the regular game, so you never have to worry about un-equipping them ever again.

[Frendh]

On 2022-11-16 at 9:58 PM, Cerikus said:

I suggest removing the negative effects of Dragon keys, so they can simply be a gear item we can carry around in case we need them.

I think it is fine the way it is. It is a minor annoyance at most. To me it just sounds like you want to freely loot dragon vaults without any drawbacks.

[Cerikus]

56 minutes ago, Frendh said:

I think it is fine the way it is. It is a minor annoyance at most. To me it just sounds like you want to freely loot dragon vaults without any drawbacks.

Yes. They already turned the bug of being allowed to equip all 4 keys into a feature. They already removed the coop element of Dragon vaults from the game. Why just not make it more accessible and less of a pain.

[Frendh]

16 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Yes. They already turned the bug of being allowed to equip all 4 keys into a feature. They already removed the coop element of Dragon vaults from the game. Why just not make it more accessible and less of a pain.

You can make everything less of a pain by giving it out for free.  But then there would not be much of a game left. On a scale of pain farming corrupted mods is on the lower end when compared to all other content in the game.

[Cerikus]

2 hours ago, Frendh said:

You can make everything less of a pain by giving it out for free.  But then there would not be much of a game left. On a scale of pain farming corrupted mods is on the lower end when compared to all other content in the game.

I am the last person who would be asking DE to give something for free.

Do you honestly think opening gear wheel in arsenal, clicking four times on an empty spot and equiping an item one by one is a quality gameplay?
The gameplay loop of dragon vaults is to enter the mission, find the vault, unlock it, while having the key built and leave.

Don't mistake bad UI for gameplay.

My suggestion is only one possible solution. I don't care how they actually solve it, but the issue is having to equip and unequip the keys. That should be changed.

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, Cerikus said:

I am the last person who would be asking DE to give something for free.

Except you're asking them to give you consequence free keys... for free...

[Cerikus]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Except you're asking them to give you consequence free keys... for free...

Oh my god! You totally got me now. How could I have asked them to do something for free in a free game!

When I said "I am the last person who would be asking DE to give something for free." I meant I would never ask for reduction of GAMEPLAY or diificulty or complexity.

The keys sideeffects have no consequences, don't expand on gamplay, you don't have to use them in a group anymore, the real difference between current keys and hypothetical keys without side effects is ONLY having to interact with clunky UI. 

I don't care how they actually solve it. Make the keys not apply when not on Deimos, Make a toggle on starchart, Remove the sideeffects. I don't care.

Problem is the having to interact with bad UI repeatedly.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Oh my god! You totally got me now.

Nice to see that it's the single-line answer you respond to, rather than the actual comment I left above refuting you with actual arguments, way to cherry pick.

3 hours ago, Cerikus said:

The keys sideeffects have no consequences

Then make them have consequences, like I suggested above.

 

Read the suggestion I made above and actually respond to it if you're arguing in good faith.

Until you actually do that, all you've achieved is to whine like a child who can't have his pudding without eating his vegetables.

[Cerikus]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Nice to see that it's the single-line answer you respond to, rather than the actual comment I left above refuting you with actual arguments, way to cherry pick.

Then make them have consequences, like I suggested above.

 

Read the suggestion I made above and actually respond to it if you're arguing in good faith.

Until you actually do that, all you've achieved is to whine like a child who can't have his pudding without eating his vegetables.

Ok, so first of all I honestly missed it, becuase you didn't quote me, therefore it didn't give me a notification. You can clearly see I responded to everything else.

Second, I don't care about having "pudding" without eating vegetables. I already have sets and sets of all corrupted mods. This is not about making it easier for ME to get something. It's about trimming the fat from overly complicated game systems. Especially for new players. There is nothing that will lead a new player to Vault farming, unless they watch a video or read a guide. (Except maybe for an occasional Nightwave challange.) And when they finally know about it, they have to deal with several layers of nonsense.

On 2022-11-18 at 12:29 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because it's the actual point of the Dragon Keys.

This is not a good argument. There was a time when you couldn't equip all 4 keys, because the point was to form a squad. They removed it anyways.

On 2022-11-18 at 12:29 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Dragon Keys are supposed to be a meaningful self-nerf to the player, a trade-off to get the more powerful mods that are in the Key Vaults. The fact that you can functionally scale past the down-sides with current modding and weapons is actually something that needs to be addressed in the same way as the AoE meta needed addressing.

The Corrupted Mods are essential to many builds. Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, Fleeting Expertise, Narrow Minded and Overextended feature so prominently across the game that getting them is often essential to making some frames into the powerhouses they can be. Even some of the weapon ones, like Critical Deceleration being the only Crit mod for Shotguns that offers more than 90% where all the other weapon types have at least 150% with something like Point Strike.

So, getting them is supposed to be dangerous. It's supposed to be a trade-off the same way that the mods themselves are a trade-off, reducing your survivability, speed or damage in order to gain the mod. (Side note, this is why I think DE are going to address the shield-gate meta, because the Dragon Key is supposed to be a nerf, not a buff, to your survivability.)

Yes. This is how it works and the meaning behind it. Doesn't mean it can't change. There was a time when game had self damage for AOE, because it made sense a big explosion can harm you. Then it was removed and look where we are now and what's going to happen soon. Just because something is some way, isn't an argument for staying it that way.

On 2022-11-18 at 12:29 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

How about, instead of removing the down-side from them, we equip them on mission start and it automatically removes them after mission end? So, just like a Fissure mission, we make Vault missions a dedicated mode where the goal itself is to unlock the Vault as well as complete the mission. You choose to equip up to all four of the keys from your inventory the same as you would a Relic, and then you go into the mission. You could even do it with Steel Path to make it tougher, and when you're going co-op you then get a lower cap of how many keys you can equip too (so with four players, each can only equip one, with three a player has to equip an extra one, and in a duo a player can choose up to three or balance it with two each).

Sure this is a very nice idea. I would fully support that. As I said multiple times, I don't care how they solve it, but the layers of nonsensical interactions with bad UI elements should be solved.

My suggestion is the way it is, because it's the simplest way to do it. Your suggestion is nice, but it would require hours of work for art team to design the hud. Other people would have to program it. There is a lot of fuctionality. My suggestion would take a lot less work.

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Ok, so first of all I honestly missed it, becuase you didn't quote me, therefore it didn't give me a notification.

Odd, you're not set to be notified about your own thread... but you do you ^^

16 hours ago, Cerikus said:

It's about trimming the fat from overly complicated game systems. Especially for new players.

If you have plenty, then don't assume you can balance for new players. DE does need to work on their new player onboarding, but simply removing consequences isn't the way to go, it means putting things in to make sure that these things are explained.

The UI is also entirely un-related to the Dragon Keys themselves, and thus has nothing to do with new players acquiring the mods. Why do new players need a change because you're upset with the UI?

16 hours ago, Cerikus said:

This is not a good argument. There was a time when you couldn't equip all 4 keys, because the point was to form a squad. They removed it anyways.

DE's move to allow more solo play does not change the balances they want to put in. DE has a history of enabling bugs to become actual features, because they find that those bugs actually cause players to engage with play more, not because it makes things easier. Their goal is to keep players in the game, doing things, increasing the time spend in the grind as both a way to ensure a large player base and to run that fine line that gets some players to pay into the system to skip content.

16 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Yes. This is how it works and the meaning behind it. Doesn't mean it can't change. There was a time when game had self damage for AOE, because it made sense a big explosion can harm you. Then it was removed and look where we are now and what's going to happen soon.

Look, in good faith, your argument about 'not meaning things can't change' is a fair one, but a misguided one. Limitations on players are a functional part of good game design. Some can be taken out or manipulated to make the game easier, some need to be enforced to make the game harder. Warframe already suffers from a difficulty spiral, where the moment you figure out how bad the enemy AI and pathing are, the minute you find the loop-holes in the game and the raw power that can be achieved with modding, weapons, abilities and gear, that is the moment you never suffer from Warframe's difficulty again. 

While minor, and something that many players can power through (as I mentioned), the dragon keys are the only gear items in game that intentionally act as self-nerfs to make the game more difficult. The idea of two different 'lower survivability' keys, a 'lower player damage' key, and a 'decreased player mobility' key, and that equipping them results in getting a reward that's functionally better than the base rewards they've been getting so far? That's a great concept and needs to be expanded on, in this game at least, and not removed.

The UI is irritating, I'll give you that. I'd be kind of happy if, now that the UI has a separate section for your Gear, you could have multiple gear wheel 'loadouts' to take with you, so putting the keys on would be a matter of simply swapping loadouts in the Gear section (two clicks rather than eight).

That's the thing, though, a UI problem is not a reason to remove a Game Play function.

It's a reason to fix the UI problem.

In bad faith, you literally used the example of DE changing a limitation on the player because people weren't enjoying it, which then literally caused a massive shift in the meta that completely destroyed DE's weapon balance and created problems with automation and a lack of player interaction with the game. So much so that they are now fixing these problems by putting that old system back in, with some new mechanics to make it more fair. And you think that this is a good example of making a change that removes a limitation on the player... That, my friend, was a very weird choice of example.

17 hours ago, Cerikus said:

My suggestion is the way it is, because it's the simplest way to do it.

I'll say this flat, it's not the simplest way to do it. It doesn't do it at all.

This change does not solve the bad UI.

Changing game play because you don't like UI is the wrong way to fix a problem.

I suggest you edit your post to reflect that. Pick any other option as long as it solves the problem, rather than ignoring it. Solve it so that all the other gear changes people have to do are fixed too, rather than doing something that means only people that never change their gear are 'happy' with the fix. And even they are put out because many of them like having the functions for various reasons.

[Cerikus]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Odd, you're not set to be notified about your own thread...

How do you enable that? o.O 

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

it means putting things in to make sure that these things are explained.

I agree. Do you think there is an easy way to exaplain it though? How do you easily exaplain: Okay. So step one is to join a clan, then there is the Orokin lab, you have to go there and replicate the blueprints and then build the keys. To do it you need to farm reactant, you do that opening the relics. After you have all 4 keys build, you need to equip them one by one in your gear wheel and go do mission on deimos. You are looking for a special door that can be opened by those keys. After you open it, finish the mission. After you are done don't forget to uneqip the keys from your gear wheel, because those are bad for you outside vault opening.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why do new players need a change because you're upset with the UI?

Do you think making UI better for a seasoned warframe player would be detrimental for new players?

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

DE's move to allow more solo play does not change the balances they want to put in. DE has a history of enabling bugs to become actual features, because they find that those bugs actually cause players to engage with play more, not because it makes things easier. Their goal is to keep players in the game, doing things, increasing the time spend in the grind as both a way to ensure a large player base and to run that fine line that gets some players to pay into the system to skip content.

That's a fair point and I would be more than happy if DE reworked the system and made an onboarding tutorial for new players.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

While minor, and something that many players can power through (as I mentioned), the dragon keys are the only gear items in game that intentionally act as self-nerfs to make the game more difficult. The idea of two different 'lower survivability' keys, a 'lower player damage' key, and a 'decreased player mobility' key, and that equipping them results in getting a reward that's functionally better than the base rewards they've been getting so far? That's a great concept and needs to be expanded on, in this game at least, and not removed.

I agree. Fun fact. Do you know that there is a mechanic already in the game, that's currently completely irrelevant, because we run the vaults solo? When you pick up the "artifact" you get a random Dragon key debuff. Who cares though, you already have all 4. That could very well be expanded upon. The keys could be harmless, but once you pick up the artifact, the mission could get a lot more difficult, because it could give you all 4 and the spawned corrupted could have higher levels or something. Mechanics in mission are much more interesting than self-nerfs inflicted by eqiping an item.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The UI is irritating, I'll give you that. I'd be kind of happy if, now that the UI has a separate section for your Gear, you could have multiple gear wheel 'loadouts' to take with you, so putting the keys on would be a matter of simply swapping loadouts in the Gear section (two clicks rather than eight).

That's the thing, though, a UI problem is not a reason to remove a Game Play function.

It's a reason to fix the UI problem.

Agreed. I hope it's actually possible to fix it.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That, my friend, was a very weird choice of example.

I meant it in the context of my previous sentence, but I see why it seems weird the way I put it. What I meant was that they removed the mandatory aspect of Dragon keys, which in my eyes lead to this situation, when the equiping is not tactical planning in squad anymore and it's just an awful chore. And now I think is time to change it again. You do have a point nonetheless.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This change does not solve the bad UI.

Fair, but I think the way all gear works is simply a bottleneck that's never going away. Maybe the "gear wheel loudouts" you suggested would ease the pain, but I don't belive it's actually fixable. For that reason I am sticking to my suggestion. Maybe I am too selfish in this case, but I just want it to be less annoying.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Have them only take effect once the vault is opened.

or only work on deimos tile sets.

No more shield gating abuse and no more equip/unequip.

and no more having to bullet jump, titania, or wukong to actually get around the map while pixel hunting the doors.

or just leave them alone. 

I would like them to change the removal processes on the gear wheel (for all gear not just dragon keys) - why isn't there a one-button press to remove something?  I hate having to select it, then scroll up to "none" then select that.  two extra clicks and extra scrolling.

[Cerikus]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

Have them only take effect once the vault is opened.

I would like this solution very much. It would be the best solution.

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

I would like them to change the removal processes on the gear wheel (for all gear not just dragon keys) - why isn't there a one-button press to remove something?  I hate having to select it, then scroll up to "none" then select that.  two extra clicks and extra scrolling.

For removing there is a quick removal - RMB.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Just now, Cerikus said:

 

For removing there is a quick removal - RMB.

hmmm - looks at controller - sees no RMB.  Guess I'll button mash next time i'm on and see if any do it.

 

[Tyreaus]

Would an alternative be to simply have the keys inflict their negative effects only on maps with a vault? Colour it as the "artefact" harmonizing with the key to inflict the debuff, same way the "artefact" itself debuffs after you pick it up. From a gameplay perspective, it's maintaining (literal) balance: you get the negative with a positive or nothing at all. You might end up with some incidental debuff situations, but far less. And that's "far less" with a dirt-cheap change.

EDIT: Got ninja'd typing the second part. Huh.

As far as shield gating goes, it reminds me of the old Coptering era. It's fine to take an unintended idea—in Coptering's case, speedrunning through a mission—and roll with it. That's how the parkour system came to be. But the end result ought to look intentional. You want to give the impression you're listening, not that you're too lazy to fix something or do it right. The current version of shield gating "abuse" is a fine idea, but simply lacks the appearance of intentionality.

So, personally, I'd rather see an intentional replacement of some sort. But rather than do something like a new corrupted mod lowering max shields, maybe we could just touch-up shield gating mechanics. Like making the gate time proportional to modded shield amounts, with partial recharges giving 1/2 that value. If we set Redirection to give 6s/3s partial, we get the current Decaying Key shield gate setup—seems like a good benchmark to me. Set that on a logarithmic-style curve, with 0% modded equating to, let's say, 2s/1s, and you give the player the ability to maintain current gating behaviours by increasing shield values. That also means the Decaying Key becomes a negative: sure, you could equip it to better maintain a full gate, but the length of that gate would be about the same, or less, than the partial gate without the key.

[Cerikus]

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

hmmm - looks at controller - sees no RMB.  Guess I'll button mash next time i'm on and see if any do it.

Oh... I am so sorry. I didn't see the (XBOX) before your name. Hopefully some button does it for you..

37 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Would an alternative be to simply have the keys inflict their negative effects only on maps with a vault?

Sure that would also work :)

And I totally agree with your point of view on the shield gating issue.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

On 2022-11-16 at 2:36 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

"Unintended Mechanic", therefore Exploit and the fact Devs were fascinated that players came up with it and shrugged it off during a Devstream doesnt mean "Ok".

Its not unintended though. Decaying key reduces your max shields which is the intended effect, and shield gating gives you 1.3 seconds of invulnerability when your shields fully replenish there is no required amount of shield that needs to be replenished just that it fills back to the max. The 2 mechanics are working exactly the way they are intended to, it just happens that the 2 synergize with each other. Its not an exploit as its fully intended with how the mechanics work in game, you can argue that shield gating should have a better effect if you have more max shields and vice versa withe less rather than how it is now sure.

Also, as a side note if you think the decaying key stat makes the game so easy then try it out yourself and you will see it really isnt, it doesnt make you invincible and it requires very active play to maintain it and its only useful in extremely high level content.