The New War just made me uninstall after 7 years playing (MR30)

[Xrenosin]

2 часа назад, Packetdancer сказал:

And that, right there, is the issue; the entire rest of the game can be played very casually, but the New War can potentially serve as a block... an obstacle that has to be passed through.

And it's wonderful.
No, don't think: I don't forbid anything or anyone. But, as a player, I'm genuinely glad that such obstacles exist and weed out at least a small % of people who can't master something more difficult than "take Ogris Kuva, shoot, repeat". Sometimes, of course, it's fun to try espionage on the Archon Hunt in a non-solo mode. See how the three of us can not defeat a single hack. Ask in a chat about the weather outside their window, are they all right? Maybe they bought an account and on their "30 skill" they really don't know how to run espionage? But often this is only annoying, forcing you to simply disable the online game mode. Because in solo or in two or three, everything is done much faster than with such players.

On one of my trips to Kullervo, two random players died (no kidding) about 30-40 times. After what he sees, any desire to play this game with random people disappears.

[Zimzala]

9 minutes ago, Xrenosin said:

weed out at least a small % of people who can't master something 

What elitist, Man-Up, testosterone, Ableist BS.

I am so glad, ecstatic even, I never have to play games with people that have these hateful thoughts strong enough admit them in words.

This line of thought is perhaps the most disgusting thig I see gamers spew.

And people wonder why gamers are often so reviled.

I hold hope that one day you and other with these ideas how terrible they are, but I don't hold my breath.

This is the reason not to play with randos, to avoid playing with people that think these hateful things, not because there are players that still have new things to learn.

[Packetdancer]

16 minutes ago, Xrenosin said:

And it's wonderful.

I am not going to argue that the New War should be easier; I've said I don't actually think that the difficulty is necessarily a mistake. But I'm admittedly moderately horrified that you think trapping a player in the quest, leaving them unable to return to the rest of the game if they are stymied, is a "wonderful" thing.

I don't think having a "quit quest, start again fresh some other time" button makes it easier, it just gives people an escape hatch. Locking them out of the entire rest of the game until they can complete the quest once they've started seems, to me, a bit extreme.

[Packetdancer]

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

And people wonder why gamers are often so reviled.

I mean, c'mon. You can find people loudly saying cruel or hurtful things -- whether intentionally or through simply being oblivious -- in any community. That's not remotely unique to gamers.

Yes, a startling number of games have accessibility problems -- to the point that I actually wrote up an Accessibility Guidelines document for my little indie gamedev crew, just to ensure we keep this stuff in mind -- and people can be oblivious to that, but I'd argue that there are accessibility issues in a lot of things, especially if those things don't have accessibility guidelines they must meet by Federal law or whatever. Despite that, there are also plenty of folks in the gaming industry and community well aware of such things; AbleGamers, projects like Microsoft's "Xbox Adaptive Controller", etc.

[Xrenosin]

9 минут назад, Zimzala сказал:

not because there are players that still have new things to learn.

You compare soft and warm. What for? I never mind helping beginners who are really learning. It is logical that any 15 MP simply cannot know everything about this game. But when I see a team of 30 MR who will do anything but hack the console or otherwise complete the task, I ask myself the question: if he has the right to just stand around or destroy someone else's gameplay, why can't I just close the game and smile, seeing then the hack counter at 00:01? Why do I have to capture and defend 2 points on Interception when the team is filled with these very "30 MR"? 4 people, 4 dots, it's simple. If you can't even deal with non-Steel Path enemies, that's not my problem. The OP himself started his thread by saying "look, I'm so old, I'm 30 MR." Again, do not confuse beginners with people who are used to having someone else do all the work for them. And it is quite expected that such people start having problems when there is no one to complete this quest for them, because the tactic "take Wisp, put flowers, go to afk" does not work here.

16 минут назад, Packetdancer сказал:

"quit quest, start again fresh some other time"

I have already said that I admit the existence of such a button. But I suspect that the problem is not only in the vision of the DE, but also in the implementation. Because it is with the passage of the New War that the choice of Drifter or Operator appears. And it is not entirely clear how to provide an interface and choices to a player who will be released somewhere between episodes of the New War. Perhaps DE will implement this in the future. But I don't think it's a priority.

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

2 minutes ago, Xrenosin said:

 

I have already said that I admit the existence of such a button. But I suspect that the problem is not only in the vision of the DE, but also in the implementation. Because it is with the passage of the New War that the choice of Drifter or Operator appears. And it is not entirely clear how to provide an interface and choices to a player who will be released somewhere between episodes of the New War. Perhaps DE will implement this in the future. But I don't think it's a priority.

This is exactly the reason WHY the new war is a marathon. Narratively, the drifter isnt the operator and doesnt have a warframe without the operator. Being able to back out after the operator _is wiped from existence_ to go to normal gameplay just... doesnt make sense. At all. Its why the new war WARNS YOU that its long and a lockout. I have no idea what quitting out of the new war would even be useful for.

In a previous post i suggested a drifter storyline to normalize drifter gameplay, which would assuage the frustration players inherently feel with it... But also theres a very valid point that "MR 30" players just press fire and dont think. I have a legend 1 friend who constantly kills objectives if theres any form of rad procs because they always "forget" that rad procs enable friendly fire while theyre carpet bombing with a maxed out god riven primed where possible kuva bramma. 

[(XBOX)Synderion13]

On 2023-07-16 at 9:52 AM, CephalonCarnage said:

And those non-warframe story quests were trivially easy. Remember The Sacrifice? Go and zap Umbra with your operator. You fail to understand the vague instructions, aim, have the mote amp, whatever... and he kills you. You restart and continue with his health lower. You always kill him, there is no real skill involved because the quest is about the introduction of this warframe you have to zap to subdue.

Now look at TNW bosses. hard, challenging, one with a stupidly vague instruction to get past their auto-heal (as if going invisible will get you past his audial barrier? No make sense, no wonder so many had a hard time with the owl that they didn't with the wolf) plus a charge-trigger bow (that I will still say was the primary problem in the entire quest, getting that charge trigger right is a right pain! DE should absolutely given the choice of the bow or a rifle. I'd have chosen the rifle every time)

No other story quest has done this, ever. They are all easy to complete. The story is what matters to those quests, not the player skill or challenging gameplay. such gameplay was always dumbed down in the quest to demonstrate it, and then you find the some mechanics in the game later that is harder. This is the way all quests worked, until someone forgot what they were doing and made the quest some solo gameplay instead.

In a past DE quest, the archons would be shown, you'd kill them easily enough in the quest and then you'd fight them in game later as warframes and they would be the challenging then. Lke kuva guardians, they were easy in the controlled environment of the quest to show you the mechanic. When they appear in gameplay they were a lot more trouble (at the level you were back then, of course)

Sorry for the slow response. Working like crazy. Alright, not to sound like an A****** but the quest wasn't all that bad difficulty wise. It did have it's moments where it was a pain but even then from everything I've been seeing 2 or 3 goes at it and you're through (general YouTubers as well as my 7 friends that went through it as well) That and the game becoming more difficult as new quests come out is logical difficulty progression. If there's no challenge there's not a lot of reason for players to stay. Matter of fact I wish they would find a way to make a challenge for the Warframe side of things that wasn't just a dps check. 

 

"No other quest has done this" okay I fail to see how it's a bad thing that they are changing things. I mean think about it. People already talk about burnout in Warframe....you realize how much more of a problem burnout would be if they kept releasing the same type of quests. I will say I do agree with you on the length of it. I wish they had a way for you to pause the quest in sections to do whatever else. Matter of fact one of the ideas I thought of was them allowing you to back out at the end of each act (they talked about the quest being 3 acts on a devstream a while back) would help make it more digestible. Granted I do disagree with Cutting 80% of the quest...what would there be to play at that point. Even from what you suggested it would effectively be kahl then veso then one long interactive cutscene and then the ballas fight. To each their own I suppose.

As for your statement of this being something that DE is doing terrible for the future. The plat sales one I don't see...granted if you said that for duviri then yeah probably. As for the terrible writing. Please explain your reasoning? It's generally hailed as one of their best written story quests. And as for the introduction of the drifter I've already stated why that's not necessarily a bad thing. Hell even further with that...look at duviri which does have you use both drifter and frame. Granted I realize you're not playing anymore anyway so..I guess look on YouTube? But I digress. I get that you don't like new war and that's fine but I am genuinely lost on how you think it's an objectively bad quest. Much less how you think "DE lost the plot here" 

[Packetdancer]

...backing out of the quest doesn't have to make narrative sense; you're aborting it. If you go back in, you start again from the beginning.

If I am reading a book and realize I might have missed something in an earlier chapter, I can flip back earlier in the book. And even if Joe (to pick a random name) died in chapter 27, if I flip back to chapter 24 he's probably still alive!

If I realize I blocked myself from doing something in FFXVI, I can load an earlier save. If I reload a save from before some NPC dies, the NPC is alive again! And doesn't remember dying!

This is true of nearly all games that have save slots and let you reload from an earlier save.

(I say "nearly all" because I know there are exceptions; I even prototyped a game where the characters were aware of the load-and-save process, and so reloading an older game could alter the game state and narrative as the characters were in fact still aware of things that now had not happened yet. But that's not common.)

Giving the option for folks to back out of the New War quest doesn't need to make narrative sense, because in essence you are reloading an earlier save or flipping back to an earlier chapter; you don't need to explain how Operator still exists because in this hypothetical scenario where there's an abort button, if you back out, the New War hasn't happened yet.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Packetdancer

[Grommile]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Synderion13 said:

I am genuinely lost on how you think it's an objectively bad quest.

"Objectively bad" is not a phrase I like.

But if I liked it, then in the context of game content design,

"A long quest, in a live service game funded by purchases of microtransaction currency which you then use to buy Stuff, which completely cuts you off from your ability to use that Stuff or buy new Stuff, and requires you to play in a radically different style to the game's norm, which you can neither abort with a button in the user interface, nor spend MTX currency to buy completion*, nor file a support ticket to have the quest progression flags cleared from your account so the game doesn't think you're on it any more, and which is not only the hardest thing in the game's main progression line to that point, but also harder than most of what comes after it."

Sounds like it would fit the bill, even if it was preceded with an entirely inadequate, wishy-washy, and possibly even outright misleading waiver prompt.

(Couldn't give two hoots about the writing in TNW, I was so salty about the overtuned "helpless sneaking" part that I skipped most of the cutscenes and really, really can't be bothered to find out what they said. I very much doubt, for instance, that any scene where Ballas opens his mouth is worth my time.)

* There is precedent for purchases from the in-game MTX store marking quests as complete.

[XorianShadow]

On 2023-07-21 at 6:09 PM, Zimzala said:

What elitist, Man-Up, testosterone, Ableist BS.

I am so glad, ecstatic even, I never have to play games with people that have these hateful thoughts strong enough admit them in words.

This line of thought is perhaps the most disgusting thig I see gamers spew.

And people wonder why gamers are often so reviled.

I hold hope that one day you and other with these ideas how terrible they are, but I don't hold my breath.

This is the reason not to play with randos, to avoid playing with people that think these hateful things, not because there are players that still have new things to learn.

Yea sorry but your exaggerating you know nothing of this person and your to full of judgement here because they pointed out a fact, the truth is some of us dont care for playing with players who are not new and messing around because they are kids or to lazy. These are later parts of the game not new players lol.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2023-07-19 at 2:30 PM, Zimzala said:

What a silly, testosterone filled take.

Your prose is based on Man-Up and Testosterone, with a big helping of Ableism.

I suggest you research concepts like Compassion and Understanding.

While DE in my book should put out whatever content they like, this particular content was deployed with very questionable tactics.

I have all but stopped playing the game literally because the attitude from DE on this matter is also based on Man-Up and Testosterone, with a big helping of Ableism, so you are aligned with the developer here, on what is a terrible implementation for a game of this type, IMO.

One day in the future when your physical and mental capabilities are not what they are today, you may understand, I hope one day you do.

This is a game to entertain people and while masochists exist, punishing your customer into interacting with your product or having to literally walk away from it is a terrible business tactic.

Where I work, we have a solid rule - Don't Punish the Client - pretty simple.

So, enjoy your abilities while they last, because one day you won't have them and you might just then, years from now perhaps, realize there is more to the world than Man-Up.

Wow. I figured somebody might not like what i had to say, but i didnt imagine somebody would find a way to be that offended by what i said. 

 

Well, im not gonna go out of my way to offend you, but im gonna warn you right up front if you didnt like that post youre probably not gonna like this one so if you cant handle that you might wanna go ahead and stop reading.

 

Last chance.

Here we go.

Bruh. Ableism? Seriously? 

To even get to the new war, you have to complete a significant portion of the star chart and other quests. Its not something you get slapped with 5 minutes into the game or even, at least as far as i know, 5 hours. 

I understand that not everyone has the same abilities and i have, contrary to your cry-bully-ism, sympathy and understanding for that concept, but considering how much you have to do to even *get* to the new war, i feel like if there was something that prevented someone from being physically or mentally able to complete the new war, they wouldnt be able to physically or mentally *get* to thr quest.

This doesn't feel like legitimate concern for the differently abled this feels like somebody throwing an entitled hissy fit because theyve convinced themselves that no, it isnt just a matter of them not enjoying something, it isnt just a matter of not wanting to eat their vegetables, its a matter of DE being asses because HOW DARE THEY present this trivial inconvenience to them in the first place. 

Being that angry over being such a trivial inconvenience smacks of entitlement.

Now sure, maybe someday i "wont have the abilities i have now" (something it seems like you WANT to happen which is real nice) but i have to wonder how in such a scenario i would be able to handle the rest of the game, but not this particular content. 

 

Its not like the game play mechanics in the new war are more complicated or difficult than the rest of the game if anything theyre less so and if someone cant or wont take the time to figure it out on their own there are more than enough walkthrough videos out there. 

 

If you dont like the quest fine. I get it. Not everyone wants to play not-in-a-warframe. And i would understand 100% if they complained about the emphasis on that or left annoyed feedback or otherwise expressed their disdain for it.

 

But where you lose me is where you make it out like DE is throwing wheelchairs down stair cases because theyre ableist bigots and anyone who doesnt see it that way is an ableist bigot.

If you wanna convince me that ableism has anything to do with this explain to me what would prevent someone from doing the new war but not prevent them from doing the rest of the game far enough to *get to* the new war. And not something completely contrived. 

 

But muh Testosterone.

 

What.

So disagreement with you means i have to have Testosterone? Or too much Testosterone? Or that specific male hormone is responsible for my thinking? Thats sexist. 

 

You are making this a way bigger deal then it has to be. And here's what i hope.

 

I hope, that when you eventually have to go out into the real world and get a job to suppport yourself, (unless you already have a job) when youre inevitably presented with something new to deal with that isnt entirely within your existing comfort zone, you find a way to deal with it rather than just immediately throwing your hands in the air and saying screw this, i cant deal with this, yall are asses for even asking me to deal with this, i give up.

Because employers tend to not like that kind of attitude for some reason.

I hope that in your personal life, when something inevitably happens that you have literally no choice but to deal with, whether it be changes in your career field, job, personal relationships, family relationships, the economy in general, society in general, politics, or basically anything for that matter, that pushes you beyond your comfort zone, you're willing to decide "you know what im gonna do the best i can and not give up" rather than just throwing a fit, blaming everyone else, and giving up.

 

Imagine having a good paying job that you actually like, working there for 7 years of your life, and because your manager asks you to do something you dont like ONE TIME that would only take a couple hours you just quit. And throw a tantrum on the way out. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2023-07-19 at 11:06 AM, Grommile said:

For the love of the wee man.

It's not just about fun.

It's about TNW being harder, in certain specific ways liable to cause trouble for people with various kinds of impairment, than not only approximately all of the content you have to complete to reach it, but also a fair chunk of the content that it unlocks.

(And even there I'm assuming every element of the quest to work well and be adequately communicated to the player.)

You can't even spend dollars or platinum to get out if it. If you can't handle two out of the three archons with the Drifter's toolset and an unmodded Nataruk, that's your Warframe account locked forever, because some game designer has too big an ego to accept that maybe, just maybe, a long quest chain with tasks more challenging than norm for the game might be something people want to take a break from.

I dont buy impairments have anything to do with this. It seems to me like the truth is a few people:

>dont wanna deal with it 

>have convinced themselves they're victims for being "forced" to deal with it

>de are jerks for it

>anyone who disagrees is a jerk for it.

And "but its ableist" is a contrived point of contention trotted out to make the situation seem worse than it actually is.

The fights (and the rest) arent that hard. 

You could take the archon fights (for example) but who's to say thats any more complicated than other quest mechanics before you even get to the new war, or things like junction specters or the game in general before that point?

 

And that kinda sneaks in the premise that well, we cant make *anything* progression or story wise too challenging because some people might not be able to get through it when the game is considered by many to be not-challenging-enough as it is. 

The only thing i can kinda sorta agree on is maybe there oughta be an "abort quest" feature but i feel like even thats debatable because that would either break immersion in a lot of ways or limit what DE can do story wise if they wanna avoid breaking immersion. I wont give spoilers here but imagine if something was happening to planet Hoth and then all of a sudden that just stopped being a thing mid story.

 

[TurjanMi.ir]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I dont buy impairments have anything to do with this. 

Sorry, but you're just wrong.

In general, this game isn't very difficult and allows for people with a broad range of reaction times and eye-hand coordination to play it, because you get a lot of tools to compensate for any shortcomings in this field. The New War quest has a few instances where all these tools are taken away, and you have to rely on your player abilities to succeed.

By the way, sometimes, this "impairment" just consists of being old. There are quite a few people in their sixties or seventies playing this game. Reaction times don't get better with age.

Rest assured, nobody is asking for free handouts here. People who ask for the ability to abort the quest don't ask for it to count as completed. At least I have never seen this. They just want to be able to go back to what they did before.

Edited July 25, 2023 by TurjanMi.ir

[CephalonCarnage]

Also, bear in mind that most of the people saying they coulnd't do the quest are a tiny minority who are (from the posts I read) unhappy with their abilty to complete it and wish they could. They're the ones who want help with the mechanic and are not whining like a toddler that it isn;t completed for them (though there is a part in the game where Erra does complete it for you, if you're bored enough of the quest by then).

Most of the whiny complaints come from people posting replies about these people.

DE knows there are many people with impairments playing the game. Did you not notice the option to turn the "press E repeatedly" with a hold alternative? That's in the game specifically of this reason, and then they expect people to shoot the archons with that charge-trigger bow that requires you to hit a sweet spot to do big damage. When I played it I was plinking away at the archon for ages. I don't consider myself impaired but that charged "perfect shot" mechanic took me a long time to get right enough to kill the damn owl and his healing bubble. So I empathise with other people who might be suffering when they say they found it too hard, and DE knows it might be too hard because pressing a key quickly to unveil is considered too difficult.

[Grommile]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Imagine having a good paying job that you actually like, working there for 7 years of your life, and because your manager asks you to do something you dont like ONE TIME that would only take a couple hours you just quit. And throw a tantrum on the way out. 

Are you seriously comparing a leisure activity to a work task?

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

>dont wanna deal with it 

>have convinced themselves they're victims for being "forced" to deal with it

>de are jerks for it

>anyone who disagrees is a jerk for it.

Wow that's a steaming pile of horse 💩 but thanks for the amusing post.  Dorothy, Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion are waiting for you in OZ, Mr. Strawman!    I don't think you could be any more disrespectful to those who might be physically challenged or more mature in age.  What exactly do you not understand about someone telling you they are having difficulty with a particular task?  It does NOT matter how many times YOU tell me it was easy for YOU,  WE ARE NOT YOU!  For some people, it is NOT enough to watch a YouTube video and magically have their Arthritis disappear or drink a cup of water from the Fountain of Youth.  I hope you realize that the majority of players who might have had difficulty with the New War Quest do NOT come to the Forums to publicly post of their failure.  There are thousands of players that play Warframe and if even if it's only 1% that just can't complete the New War Quest , it still amounts to a potential loss of income because those players can not partake of ANYTHING Warframe EVER again.  There are NO MISSIONS that are even remotely equivalent to an Archon Hunt using only a powerless Drifter and a Bow!  So please go fly a kite if you continue to spew forth such poppycock as it's a "progression marker" for all things Warframe once you complete it.  There is nothing like it before and nothing like it after so why is it a qualification for doing ANYTHING in Warframe?  Now we have Duviri which, for any new player, completely throws everything out of the window with the Tenno story line and makes the "progression marker" concept even less palatable.

There is nothing in Warframe that is so dramatically different after the New War other than the piles of trash in POE and dirty tundra in Orb Valis.  Please stop this nonsense of "immersion breaking" as an excuse to prevent people from enjoying Warframe the same way they did BEFORE the New War Quest, which is playing missions with a Warframe!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

 

[Packetdancer]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

The only thing i can kinda sorta agree on is maybe there oughta be an "abort quest" feature but i feel like even thats debatable because that would either break immersion in a lot of ways or limit what DE can do story wise if they wanna avoid breaking immersion. I wont give spoilers here but imagine if something was happening to planet Hoth and then all of a sudden that just stopped being a thing mid story.

I mean, again... saying someone can choose to abort a quest (e.g., canceling it and going back to the state before it happened, to start it fresh again later) would limit what can be done in the narrative is like -- to use your Hoth example -- saying the fact that Empire Strikes Back is available outside of theaters and thus people can choose to stop watching the film and go back to watch A New Hope instead limits what can be done story-wise. Because the thing is, if you go back to watch A New Hope, the characters aren't aware of what happens in the second film, even if you are.

Just like if you load an earlier save in an RPG, NPCs that were dead are alive now! Fights that happened haven't happened any longer! Does the ability to reload from a previous save "break what can be done story-wise", or is it just a function of how the story is being told? Because I'd argue it's the latter.

Going back to watch the previous movie -- or going back to read an earlier chapter in a book, or choosing to reload an earlier save, or whatever -- does not change the state of the thing you have "gone back" to. Thus, aborting the New War and going back to the pre-New-War content doesn't need to change the rest of the game world in any way;  NPCs don't need to acknowledge the events of the New War, because by aborting the mission -- by functionally "reloading an earlier save" in an RPG, or flipping back to an earlier chapter, or watching the previous movie -- those events have not yet occurred. For anyone. Including your character.

Anyway, on the rest of it...

I have friends who have to take Warframe breaks because carpal tunnel or arthritis flares up and impacts their ability to play with precision (or without extreme pain). I had a friend back in the WildStar days who had severe nerve damage to his hands from his time in the military; he was perfectly capable of understanding how to play the game, but his hands would betray him and lock up, rendering him unable to actually press the keys. (Much to his frustration.)

So I can certainly imagine scenarios where someone might have a particular loadout they use for almost everything; if you have trouble with your hands that makes precise dodging tricky, I can see someone playing Rhino in almost everything so they don't have to dodge so much. If you have trouble with rapid-firing shots manually, I can easily imagine someone who sticks mostly to automatic-fire weaponry. And if you have an issue that makes precise click timing difficult -- nerve damage, arthritis, whatever -- I can certainly see why someone would not particularly like my beloved Nataruk.

And in the star chart leading up to the New War, that's all viable; the game lets you construct a play-style that suits you.

But during the chunk of the New War where you play as Drifter, none of those are options. You're using the Sirocco at first (which has a perfect-shot-like Overcharge mechanic on timed reload) and then Nataruk (which several people have already complained about in this thread), you are playing as squishy Drifter rather than tanky Rhino so dodging (or other timely methods of evasion) becomes borderline mandatory, etc.

So while I admit it didn't occur to me while actually playing through the New War (because precision archery and dodging around constantly is my play-style in the star-chart anyway)... looking back at it now after this thread, and thinking back on the quest in hindsight? Yeah, I can absolutely see how someone who had no issue with the rest of the game on their preferred loadout that was tweaked to be comfortable for their physical capabilities might nonetheless have significant issues with the New War.

(I mean, heck, it's not hard to imagine that a considerably different gameplay style might pose problems for folks who otherwise do fine. As it is, there's certainly a lot of people who post frustrations on this forum about Duviri gameplay, saying Drifter is clunky and unpleasant and that they get hit by enemies because parry timing is finicky and they can't dodge like they're used to with Warframes, etc.)

I don't know whether I think the New War itself should be changed -- that I'm not sure there's a good way to do, as I think that could have some impact on the narrative; I feel like part of the point of the quest storyline is feeling vulnerable and squishy compared to the godlike power of the Warframes, whether as Kahl/Veso or as Drifter. I can see arguments for some accessibility improvements there, but I'm not sure I see a really good way to make them, at least offhand. Maybe something like FFXIV's solo duty setup, where after you fail a thing it offers you an easier mode of it to help you get through... I dunno.

But regardless of anything else, I think locking someone into that quest forever and blocking them from the entire (fairly substantial) set of game content prior to that quest, as well as all multiplayer functionality, is -- as I said before -- maybe not the design choice I would make there. Especially in a multiplayer live-service game.

Hence, y'know... abort button.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Packetdancer

[Packetdancer]

8 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

...and then they expect people to shoot the archons with that charge-trigger bow that requires you to hit a sweet spot to do big damage.

I will note that I don't think there is any portion of the New War that requires the perfect shot mechanic. It sure makes the archon fights faster, I grant, but I have a friend who didn't actually know about the perfect shot mechanic until after the New War... so either they were doing it by accident, or else the charged shot was sufficient.

(I will actually grant it's possible they were doing it accidentally, though. The perfect shot timing is actually not all that different from certain Destiny 2 bows where you go "if I release a little early I still have full draw and I can fire more quickly", which was actually how I discovered it; I'd come back to the New War after a stint in Destiny 2 and my muscle memory was still in D2 mode, and so I found I kept doing perfect shot instead of charged shots without meaning to. And the friend in question is another D2 player... not one who favors bows the way I do, but still.)

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

26 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

I mean, again... saying someone can choose to abort a quest (e.g., canceling it and going back to the state before it happened, to start it fresh again later) would limit what can be done in the narrative is like -- to use your Hoth example -- saying the fact that Empire Strikes Back is available outside of theaters and thus people can choose to stop watching the film and go back to watch A New Hope instead limits what can be done story-wise. Because the thing is, if you go back to watch A New Hope, the characters aren't aware of what happens in the second film, even if you are.

Just like if you load an earlier save in an RPG, NPCs that were dead are alive now! Fights that happened haven't happened any longer! Does the ability to reload from a previous save "break what can be done story-wise", or is it just a function of how the story is being told? Because I'd argue it's the latter.

Going back to watch the previous movie -- or going back to read an earlier chapter in a book, or choosing to reload an earlier save, or whatever -- does not change the state of the thing you have "gone back" to. Thus, aborting the New War and going back to the pre-New-War content doesn't need to change the rest of the game world in any way;  NPCs don't need to acknowledge the events of the New War, because by aborting the mission -- by functionally "reloading an earlier save" in an RPG, or flipping back to an earlier chapter, or watching the previous movie -- those events have not yet occurred. For anyone. Including your character.

Anyway, on the rest of it...

I have friends who have to take Warframe breaks because carpal tunnel or arthritis flares up and impacts their ability to play with precision (or without extreme pain). I had a friend back in the WildStar days who had severe nerve damage to his hands from his time in the military; he was perfectly capable of understanding how to play the game, but his hands would betray him and lock up, rendering him unable to actually press the keys. (Much to his frustration.)

So I can certainly imagine scenarios where someone might have a particular loadout they use for almost everything; if you have trouble with your hands that makes precise dodging tricky, I can see someone playing Rhino in almost everything so they don't have to dodge so much. If you have trouble with rapid-firing shots manually, I can easily imagine someone who sticks mostly to automatic-fire weaponry. And if you have an issue that makes precise click timing difficult -- nerve damage, arthritis, whatever -- I can certainly see why someone would not particularly like my beloved Nataruk.

And in the star chart leading up to the New War, that's all viable; the game lets you construct a play-style that suits you.

But during the chunk of the New War where you play as Drifter, none of those are options. You're using the Sirocco at first (which has a perfect-shot-like Overcharge mechanic on timed reload) and then Nataruk (which several people have already complained about in this thread), you are playing as squishy Drifter rather than tanky Rhino so dodging (or other timely methods of evasion) becomes borderline mandatory, etc.

So while I admit it didn't occur to me while actually playing through the New War (because precision archery and dodging around constantly is my play-style in the star-chart anyway)... looking back at it now after this thread, and thinking back on the quest in hindsight? Yeah, I can absolutely see how someone who had no issue with the rest of the game on their preferred loadout that was tweaked to be comfortable for their physical capabilities might nonetheless have significant issues with the New War.

(I mean, heck, it's not hard to imagine that a considerably different gameplay style might pose problems for folks who otherwise do fine. As it is, there's certainly a lot of people who post frustrations on this forum about Duviri gameplay, saying Drifter is clunky and unpleasant and that they get hit by enemies because parry timing is finicky and they can't dodge like they're used to with Warframes, etc.)

I don't know whether I think the New War itself should be changed -- that I'm not sure there's a good way to do, as I think that could have some impact on the narrative; I feel like part of the point of the quest storyline is feeling vulnerable and squishy compared to the godlike power of the Warframes, whether as Kahl/Veso or as Drifter. I can see arguments for some accessibility improvements there, but I'm not sure I see a really good way to make them, at least offhand. Maybe something like FFXIV's solo duty setup, where after you fail a thing it offers you an easier mode of it to help you get through... I dunno.

But regardless of anything else, I think locking someone into that quest forever and blocking them from the entire (fairly substantial) set of game content prior to that quest, as well as all multiplayer functionality, is -- as I said before -- maybe not the design choice I would make there. Especially in a multiplayer live-service game.

Hence, y'know... abort button.

Lets say someone has arthritis and fine aiming isnt manageable for extended periods of time. Okay i get that. 

I feel like rhino would be a worse option than say, inaros but i mean whatever i get your point right. Maybe someone finds a loadout that works for them and thats great. 

Im all for warframe being as accessible as *reasonably* possible.

But at the end of the day its a videogame. We cant make a pizza absolutely everyone is gonna like and if we say, okay we cant have anything story wise remotely challenging because somebody might not be able to do it, 

Thats alot like saying we can only have baby food because some people cant eat solid foods. 

 

Im fine with an abort button. Im not fine with entitled cry baby temper tantrums, thinly veiled vitriol to other forum users, making mountains out of molehills, and absurd appeals to emotion and cry-bullying anyone who disagrees. 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

Wow that's a steaming pile of horse 💩 but thanks for the amusing post.  Dorothy, Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion are waiting for you in OZ, Mr. Strawman!    I don't think you could be any more disrespectful to those who might be physically challenged or more mature in age.  What exactly do you not understand about someone telling you they are having difficulty with a particular task?  It does NOT matter how many times YOU tell me it was easy for YOU,  WE ARE NOT YOU!  For some people, it is NOT enough to watch a YouTube video and magically have their Arthritis disappear or drink a cup of water from the Fountain of Youth.  I hope you realize that the majority of players who might have had difficulty with the New War Quest do NOT come to the Forums to publicly post of their failure.  There are thousands of players that play Warframe and if even if it's only 1% that just can't complete the New War Quest , it still amounts to a potential loss of income because those players can not partake of ANYTHING Warframe EVER again.  There are NO MISSIONS that are even remotely equivalent to an Archon Hunt using only a powerless Drifter and a Bow!  So please go fly a kite if you continue to spew forth such poppycock as it's a "progression marker" for all things Warframe once you complete it.  There is nothing like it before and nothing like it after so why is it a qualification for doing ANYTHING in Warframe?  Now we have Duviri which, for any new player, completely throws everything out of the window with the Tenno story line and makes the "progression marker" concept even less palatable.

There is nothing in Warframe that is so dramatically different after the New War other than the piles of trash in POE and dirty tundra in Orb Valis.  Please stop this nonsense of "immersion breaking" as an excuse to prevent people from enjoying Warframe the same way they did BEFORE the New War Quest, which is playing missions with a Warframe!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

 

Cope and seethe.

8 hours ago, Grommile said:

Are you seriously comparing a leisure activity to a work task?

Yes. Because the person i was responding to has demonstrated extremely poor coping skills that im sure will translate into other areas of life as well if they dont get a grip.

[Packetdancer]

Just now, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

But at the end of the day its a videogame. We cant make a pizza absolutely everyone is gonna like and if we say, okay we cant have anything story wise remotely challenging because somebody might not be able to do it,

I absolutely agree that not every game is going to be accessible to everyone.

I haven't (generally) seen people complaining they want the quest solved for them, except in the context of "I cannot play this for [insert reason here] and since it cannot be aborted, I would love to have a way to skip through it." Most people who have issues with the quest seem willing to accept that the parts of the game beyond the New War aren't going to be accessible to them without playing the quest -- they just want back out of the quest.

So I think the issue with the New War is less "this is not accessible" but more "the rest of the game is actually surprisingly accessible, so this particular quest -- which is not -- can come a bit out of nowhere and blindside folks" combined with "if you are blindsided by that, it's too late; you're stuck. Forever."

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

Just now, Packetdancer said:

I absolutely agree that not every game is going to be accessible to everyone.

I haven't (generally) seen people complaining they want the quest solved for them, except in the context of "I cannot play this for [insert reason here] and since it cannot be aborted, I would love to have a way to skip through it." Most people who have issues with the quest seem willing to accept that the parts of the game beyond the New War aren't going to be accessible to them without playing the quest -- they just want back out of the quest.

So I think the issue with the New War is less "this is not accessible" but more "the rest of the game is actually surprisingly accessible, so this particular quest -- which is not -- can come a bit out of nowhere and blindside folks" combined with "if you are blindsided by that, it's too late; you're stuck. Forever."

I still dont buy that its some kind of great filter.

 

If you can even make it to the new war you should be able to complete the new war. Full stop. And if you refuse to get through it because its "too icky" thats on you. 

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Cope and seethe.

[TurjanMi.ir]

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I still dont buy that its some kind of great filter.

If you can even make it to the new war you should be able to complete the new war. Full stop.

You're still wrong. There's nothing like that in the whole game up to that point.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

13 minutes ago, TurjanMi.ir said:

You're still wrong. There's nothing like that in the whole game up to that point.

If you've played any video game in the last ten years there are waaayyyy harder games and challenges than the New War Quest. Most people just don't have the patience to actually play something that gives them even a slight challenge anymore.

[Grommile]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Yes. Because the person i was responding to has demonstrated extremely poor coping skills that im sure will translate into other areas of life as well if they dont get a grip.

I will absolutely put up with things at work that I will not put up with in my leisure activities.

I don't expect work to be fun, as a starter for ten.

(And, y'know. Leisure activities are frequently a large component of people's coping strategies for late-stage capitalism.)

Edited July 25, 2023 by Grommile
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