Improvement's to Theorem and Residual Arcanes and their UI

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

This is going to be an analysis of the Deimos Arcanes and what I personally believe causes them to be a bit underwhelming and how to improve them, including their UI.

*Please Make Sure you either read or watch a video to know what these Arcanes do before making criticisms*

Now the following Residual Arcanes:

•Malodor •Viremia •Boils  •Shock 

Mechanical Changes 

A massive problem their combination with Theorem Arcanes mechanic is how frustrating it is to trigger. This is because they’re often not visible … 

 

(Please take a look at this YouTuber showcasing them @QuadLyStop from 4:12 ) 

A suggestion to the zones can be to keep to a max of 3 residual zones on the field simultaneously with the latest aoe ring replacing the last one.

Statistical Changes

These Arcanes simply do not do much damage or utility in comparison to the grind of getting them so in order to improve them I’d increase their in kill chance from 20% > 25% give them these effects.

Residual Malodor - The 40 Cold Damage should instead be 200 damage and for every second an enemy stands in the zone They get a cold proc and at 10 procs they freeze solid.

Residual Viremia - The 40 toxin damage should instead be a flat 5% damage to enemy health and Toxin Proc for every second they stand in the Arcanes zone.

Residual Shock - The 200 electric damage kept the same but each second enemies are in the zone they get an Electric Proc.

Residual Boil - The 80 fire damage should instead be 200 fire damage and each second enemies are standing in the back zone they get a heat proc.

I am going to be explicitly clear to you guys that these are Arcanes are supposed to be GIMMICKS paired with Theorem Arcane so therefore them being not as strong as Pax Arcanes by themselves is most likely intended which I’m in favour for despite how many would disagree. However that’s only if combined with the Theorem Arcanes they become significantly stronger than the pax Arcanes which leads to my next point.

Theorem Arcanes

•Demulcent •Infection •Contagion

These are Supposed to be the buffs that essentially make them better than the other Kit Gun arcanes but as of now that’s simply not even a little bit true. A part of the problem is the UI often doesn’t tell the player if they have the buff or not to utilise it well. 

Another Part of the problem is because DE chooses to “Fix” (aka Nerf) interactions of the Arcanes despite it already being so under-utilised in Hotfix 32.0.12 instead streamlining its potential as an additional Warframe Direct Damage ability buff.

*MANDATORY* UI Changes

THEOREM ARCANE UI SHOULD NOT STOP REFRESHING JUST BECAUSE IT REACHED MAX STACKS.

Also the UI is often Bugged and stops stacks at stack 12 and doesn’t trigger when stacks run out despite being in a  residuals zone please fix that

How it Should Work: 

(The UI should ONLY show the countdown when not in the Zone like this (*[UI] symbolising the buff icon*)

1. Enter the Zone = Start gaining stacks = [UI]² then [UI]³ = 3x stacks

2. Zone expires or u leave = Countdown starts= [UI]³ 20s = 3x Stacks 20 seconds Duration

3. Re-Enters Zone = Countdown disappears and start gaining stacks again [UI]³ then [UI]⁴  

(*Pls Ignore this if you understand*)

Furthermore Stacks should be gained significantly faster I know when two residual rings are stacked on top of each other it *appears* (could be bug as the buff UI is so 🫤) to increase the rate you increase stacks but considering the ring is placed inconsistently on corpses of enemies stacks should be gained quicker innately.

Editors Note - I have been made aware that these are simply UI inconstancies as the buff does actually refresh when in the zone the UI however should still show this instead of how it currently does.

Statistical Changes

Theorem Contagion - This Arcane needs THE most changes as not only is it a gimmick it’s bad one that needs approx 126~ Deimos Vaults runs of farm. Even I know my Limits and didn’t even know how to make this arcane even semi viable. I would suggest DE just completely changes what it does.

The only thing that came to mind was to change it’s affect to making the globe emit an AOE pulse of 30m that makes every enemy in range vulnerable to the globes damage type and Raise the vulnerability to 400% and the de-buff last 10 seconds flat.

Theorem Demulcent - Ever since the introduction of the Steel Path Arcane Merciless I feel like this arcane has fallen into even more obscurity.

So not only would I revert the nerf of the Buff affecting projectile abilities such as Baruuks Desert Winds , Frost Ice Wave, Wisp Breach Surge and Embers Fireball. Infact I would make it apply the buff to EVERY direct Damage warframe abilities like Oberons Smite (NOT Saryns Spore) and Semi/Exalted Abilities like Whipeclaw Blade Storm and Balefire.

Theorem Infection - Currently the only viable option of the 3 in my opinion. It’s affect is pretty solid and I wouldn’t buff much. 

I would suggest that ally damage % increased from 360 > 400%

These Arcanes Definitely need to be adjusted after the implementation of the Steel Path Arcanes but with buffs they can easily become worth the painful grind it can be farming them. 

If anyone has any suggestions in order to make these arcanes better ESPECIALLY Contagion which I didn’t even really think of anything for, please do say.

Anyways thankyou for listening to my Ted Talk.

Edit Note: If this does get read by the Development Team please look at the comments of @(PSN)RB3-Reloaded   @DrBorris @Famecans and@ShogunGunshow we’ve updated after some discussion

Edited April 21, 2023 by (PSN)RB3-Reloaded

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

The Demios Arcane are fine. How they trigger is fine. What they offer is also fine. How they function mechanically to the warframe gameplay is where the issue lies. If only the field would be an aura center on the player. Then allow team mates to benefit from it. 

[DrBorris]

I've been tinkering with reworking the Residual/Theorem Arcanes for awhile myself. They have a ton of potential, but they miss the mark in a truly spectacular degree. 

 

The TL;DR for my thoughts before I read this post are as follows...

• Having to stack the buffs doesn't fit the pace of Warframe, they should be one-and-done. If Residuals need a range nerf to compensate I think it would still be for the best. 
• Make sure every arcane that benefits from a Residual field has a direct tie to the element of the Residual. 
• Add a new set of weapon arcanes that interact with Residuals. Have the bonus damage be elemental damage to tie into the Residual theme. 
• Make the existing residuals good :)

 

Feedback to the OP

• I like embracing status effects with the Residuals, but I don't think their damage should be enhanced. 200 damage wouldn't do anything at higher levels but it would make them light AoE clear at lower levels, even though low levels 'don't matter' I don't think they should be doing that even there.
• I don't like stacking of the Theorems at all. I don't like stacking in general, but clearly DE disagrees, so honestly just fixing stacking to not be dumb is probably the more reasonable ask. 
• Theorem Contagion is an awesome concept that has a terrible implementation. Debuffing enemies to an element has a ton of potential for weird build-craft but application method is horrid. I don't think elemental combos should work as the whole thing with Residuals is their single-element nature. If you are using these arcanes you are centering your whole build around them, I think it is more interesting to have you build your weapons around them as well. The 30m AoE you propose isn't bad, but it is on the boring side imo. I like the orby thing thematically, but an effect like a damage debuff does need some form of mass application as you suggest. Maybe the orb could bounce?
• As for Demulcent, there is a bit of precedent for added elemental damage to abilities with Nourish on Grendel. I don't know if this mechanic could be easily transferred to other frames, but adding elemental damage to abilities could be really interesting (and possibly broken). 
• Infection is a scary Arcane. DE doesn't like turrets, they don't like AFK strategies, an Arcane that only gets value from "turrets" killing things might not be the best design space. While you do need to kill things with your weapons every so often to keep this active, it still feels like it is riding a line. 

 

13 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

The Demios Arcane are fine. How they trigger is fine. What they offer is also fine. How they function mechanically to the warframe gameplay is where the issue lies. If only the field would be an aura center on the player. Then allow team mates to benefit from it. 

Huh?

The Residuals are whatever. They aren't supposed to be great on their own, they are intended to just be a set up for Theorems so they get a pass.

But the Theorems though... none of them I would consider to be in a good place. One of them gives a boost to companion damage, and while I know there are some gimmicks for this I don't think any mechanic that leads to AFK strategies is a good idea. One of them has a damage debuff that affects one enemy every two seconds. And the third "good" one gives a insignificant damage boost and has to compete with Warframe arcanes. 

 

I kind of want DE to do a "Deimos Arcana 2.0" as a full rework as that content, both the missions and rewards, were skipped over by most of the community. Most players I've run into don't even know about the Arcana bounties. Arcana bounties are some of the best "open world" content in the game in my opinion, unfortunately the way you start/matchmake into them left them dead on arrival. DE could probably market a Deimos Arcana refresh as brand new content and the majority of players wouldn't notice. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by DrBorris

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

On 2023-01-24 at 5:20 AM, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

The Demios Arcane are fine. How they trigger is fine. What they offer is also fine. How they function mechanically to the warframe gameplay is where the issue lies. If only the field would be an aura center on the player. Then allow team mates to benefit from it. 

And I Quote…

On 2023-01-24 at 3:22 AM, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

Please Make Sure you either read or watch a video to know what these Arcanes do before making criticisms*

You can’t say how they trigger is fine then turn around say “if only the field would be an aura around the player” because guess what? That would mean how they trigger is NOT fine.  
 

Also when have arcanes besides from Energise and Pulse ever buffed allies?

Edited January 25, 2023 by (PSN)RB3-Reloaded

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

The condition to trigger the arcane is fine. We're not here jumping through hoops just to get a lackluster effect. Nor are the triggers convoluted in that the enemy dies before the condition can be met. The benefits of the arcane however needs to change since the player can not take advantage of those effects.

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

23 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Huh?

The Residuals are whatever. They aren't supposed to be great on their own, they are intended to just be a set up for Theorems so they get a pass.

But the Theorems thought... none of them I would consider to be in a good place.

First of all thankyou for your detailed response I wish the forums had more users like you. I can tell by your response you actually use these arcanes and have some good points here’s also what I think.

1- You are very right about just removing the stacking feature it would solve a lot of the problems I mentioned. Tbh I only thought about it from the narrow perspective of “deal with what we’ve got” heck even changing how the buff stacks would be better than being forced in a stationary position and waiting for it to rise.

2- they kinda do have a tie already as Infections/Demulcents damage buff is given residual type. Companions buffed with 360% heat or tox ect.

3- We do gotta remember these are Kitgun exclusive still and not many ppl would choose a buff of a single element then just a straight up buff like merciless tho, it’s a good idea but unless u got a Kitgun equipped it’s not used and if you do it’s gotta compete with merciless.

- Your Feedback Section (once again thankyou)

•Eh you got me lol I just thought we should round them all up to 200 since Residual Shock does that much damage anyways. It was more of “keep it consistent thing”

•As said before removing the stacking would be a good resolve in all honesty. Stationary gameplay in order to stack the buff is a pain not to mention its just doesn’t even work sometimes AND you get PUNISHED after you pull it off as it doesn’t even refresh at max stats??? A joke tbh if DE won’t do the “one and done” atleast the following.

Shortening the time for it to reach max stacks, it being refreshable at maxed and fixing the residuals spots range and triggering bugs all good ways to solve that issue.

• Contagion - Yh I really struggled to find a way to improve this arcane as I find the whole interaction with the orb only picking a single enemy at a time every 2 seconds AND it having to be the closest it was just very impractical for me to use.

I see you disagree with my element combination idea because of the elemental theme aspect and that’s fair but I will say these arcanes not only require a Kitgun giving up a straight 50% ability Strength boost but also a warframe Arcane slot so in all honesty I want them to be worth the investment without restricting centring a build to the extremes. Maybe elemental based Warframes like Frost/ember make it “ barely usable” but other than them I just consider it too niche.

The Orb bouncing could be a GREAT I didn’t think of before especially if it’s fast and bounces around enemy to enemy like the Synergise Prospectus Mod on hounds Ty for that idea.

Demulcent- YUP could possibly be broken but hopefully DE just plays it smart and give the elemental buff on abilities that need the most benefit from it like Wisps Sol Gate and not u know overkill… like on abilities like Saryns spores.

Infection - it has always been well balanced to me tbh idk maybe because I don’t run it on Tenno spectres. DE has always had ways of making preventing AFK farming and have even doubled down on it with the Wukong changes. So as long as u get kills and put the work in I think it’s fine tbh. Especially since summoned AI is still usually enemy AI after all. Companions I think have absolutely no way of dealing with enemies so consistently that this should be an issue to them.

{Your Ending Points} Couldn’t have said it better my guy these arcanes are in NEED to atleast get fixed so their mechanics aren’t so bad to the point u get actively punished for trying to use them. as for AFK strategies hmmm Idk still *every* spectre has a mechanism where you can’t “really” afk and companions are well… companions 😭 lol… Summoner frames benefit the most from it and well considering they restrict weapon choice and use up a frame arcane slot let them go wild. (Infection should also work Nyx idk why it doesn’t tbh…)

Deimos Arcana missions man yes yes I remember doing them with a dedicated clanmate since we just wanted to farm the arcanes. If the improved the matchmaking it would definitely allowed the Arcana bounties less daunting on the average player.

(TYVM for your feedback I will most likely update the thread based on that after u respond back ofc but rn I typed a lot and it’s getting late)

Edited January 25, 2023 by (PSN)RB3-Reloaded

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

43 minutes ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

The condition to trigger the arcane is fine. We're not here jumping through hoops just to get a lackluster effect. Nor are the triggers convoluted in that the enemy dies before the condition can be met. The benefits of the arcane however needs to change since the player can not take advantage of those effects.

Once again I’m telling you they are not. “The Killing of enemies” in order to trigger the creation residual zone is NOT what I’m talking about.

Idk what you think I mean but currently not only do they have straight up bugs where the UI shows stacks aren’t rising but they also punish you for stationary gameplay by not refreshing when u re-enter the residual zones when u reach full stacks. Furthermore the zones themselves are often a hindrance when there’s already a lot on the screen,they need to be made bigger and also given a different appearance, point-blank.

The benefits do need to be changed too not denying that but you denying the problems with their triggering and stating the only fix needed is giving the buffs to team mates simply makes no sense.

Edited January 25, 2023 by (PSN)RB3-Reloaded

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

10 hours ago, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

Once again I’m telling you they are not. “The Killing of enemies” in order to trigger the creation residual zone is NOT what I’m talking about.

Idk what you think I mean but currently not only do they have straight up bugs where the UI shows stacks aren’t rising but they also punish you for stationary gameplay by not refreshing when u re-enter the residual zones when u reach full stacks. Furthermore the zones themselves are often a hindrance when there’s already a lot on the screen,they need to be made bigger and also given a different appearance, point-blank.

The benefits do need to be changed too not denying that but you denying the problems with their triggering and stating the only fix needed is giving the buffs to team mates simply makes no sense.

I did state the buff needs to be an aura center on top of the player that team mates can benefit from. This way the field of effect is mobile instead of stationary. The field is also on the player control instead of randomly spawning in weird places. Team mates also gaining the benefit is an after thought. Just to entice group cordination on who should use which Demios arcane.

[Famecans]

thoughts:

• I think these are arcana with stationary purposes but the mechanics are quite confusing during gameplay.
• the zone must be spawned next to the warframe and not on the enemy's corpses.
• in a defense mission these arcana have a arbitrary mechanic, no one wants to create an augment zone 50 meters away from the frame.
• the zone demarcation needs to be really visible as a wisp motes.
• all elements should have the same small tentacles below the warframe's line of sight.
• these arcana have been changed since launch but the zone is still difficult to identify.
• the zone needs to be increased to 20~30 meters because we want tesla coil and crowd control area.
• the timer should be triggered only when leaving the zone, staying in the zone keeps the buff intermittent.

stats numbers look good but this needs to be affected by warframe abilities as there are many mechanics like these that are unaffected by abilities.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Famecans

[ShogunGunshow]

The frustrating part is that they do refresh at max stacks. This was easiest to see when Demulcent affected abilities,  but if you step into a pool with like 5 seconds left on your max stack buff and then step out, the buff will appear to fall off your bar, but you will still benefit from the effect for a duration appropriate for if it had refreshed. You will also not be able to visually gain the buff again for this duration, because according to the game, you already have it. Which you do, technically, even if you can't see the buff icon anymore, and you can continue to refresh it and never see it on your bar until it's allowed to expire. Only then will you be able to see it on your buff bar again.

In short, they've always refreshed between pools at max stacks, it's just that someone at DE's QA didn't do their job right. Again.

Edited January 26, 2023 by ShogunGunshow

[ShogunGunshow]

I'm also very sorry for the linked post above because it was shortly after my demonstrating that they refresh with Smite that DE nuked Demulcent applying to Warframe abilities.

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

On 2023-01-26 at 10:05 PM, ShogunGunshow said:

I'm also very sorry for the linked post above because it was shortly after my demonstrating that they refresh with Smite that DE nuked Demulcent applying to Warframe abilities.

So they can nerf it applying to abilities yet the UI bug can stay? The Incompetence is so insane atp idk what’s real anymore… I really wanna edit the Original Post with all this Information I’ve gotten in the comments like yourself but I’m so tired from work hopefully I’ll be able to do so tomorrow. Once again Ty for your feedback and link to your post I really do appreciate being informed.

Edited March 19, 2023 by (PSN)RB3-Reloaded

[ShogunGunshow]

1 hour ago, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

So they can nerf it applying it applying to abilities yet the UI bug can stay?

Believe me, I was very salty and had the exact same thoughts.

I think what annoyed me more, though, was that many - if not most - effects that give a global weapon damage bonus have affected a bunch of Warframe ability damage basically since the beginning of the game. This is a consequence of a ton of Warframe damage abilities basically creating a projectile or entity that's classified in code as a weapon to do their thing. Eclipse applies its bonus damage to such Warframe abilities. Naramon's Lethal Levitation applies its bonus damage to such Warframe abilities. It doesn't mention it, but I bet Octavia's Amp also applies. etc. etc.

So now we're not even consistently inconsistent. God forbid someone would have a reason to equip Theorem Demulcent. 

Anyway, sorry for the tangent.

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

On 2023-01-27 at 1:21 AM, ShogunGunshow said:

So now we're not even consistently inconsistent. God forbid someone would have a reason to equip Theorem Demulcent. 

Anyway, sorry for the tangent.

Thankyou for your comment I finally updated the thread to explicitly state the UI issue is essentially JUST a UI problem and doesn’t actually affect the buff.

I also suggested that theorem demulcant should be added to warframe projectile abilities because as you said why would demulcant should actually be useful 😀

[Famecans]

I think DE forgot about them, there are many stationary frames that would be grateful for the reworking of these residual arcana. I would love to combine one of these with the great [primary frostbit] or maybe try them out with [conjuction voltage].

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Theorem Infection requires you to stand in a very small zone for 15 seconds to get a buff that has all its stacks expire after 20 seconds. I honestly tried making a Nekros build revolving around this arcane and it requires you to camp the entire mission in one spot to make any use of it. You can use two kitguns to combine the elements and turn the expiration timer into 40 seconds. This gives you some flexibility on how you move around the map but it's kind of ridiculous that you need two kitguns, a total of 3 arcane slots to make this a somewhat tolerable setup, and have to recast his 4 every time a Residual Arcane buff is maxed to snapshot it onto the shadows. I couldn't tolerate it.

Nekros is seriously hurting to be any anything other than a loot frame with shadows that don't do any significant damage until they start out scaling enemies well in the thousands of levels and even then, they kill painfully slow. You can't use an EHP setup that high in endurance so if you build him for shield-gating or Vazarin Protective Sling, his 4th ability only becomes useful for the knockdown/self-stagger immunity and even then you can just slot Primed Sure Footed. He has Creeping Terrify for the slow but this just makes Nekros a warframe with only two good abilities and in my eyes, Terrify is the only good ability. I Helminthed off Desecrate because I don't care about resources in this game anymore. He is only an SP Arena frame to me and won't ever be unless he gets some tweaks or makes this Theorem Infection worth it.

The arcane isn't even worth it to buff a Verglas with heat and Contagious Bond, which becomes extremely overpowered.

When will the bugs with this arcane be fixed? Do you expect us to sit in a residual zone for 15 seconds while watching the small buff icon before moving on with the mission until we inevitably have to repeat this action every 20 seconds? This is not playing the game.

Please, please, please revisit these.

Edited March 15 by Ghastly-Ghoul