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[Explained] Damage 2.0 Builds, With Cheatsheets!


_Aahz
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Okay, first and most important thing to realize:

  • Do NOT compare the new damage system to old damage system. It is completely different and you're just going to confuse yourself trying to somehow translate new mechanics into the old stuff.

Scott/Grineeer tried to explain it in the livestreams, and DERebecca tried to explain more in the forum, but the great majority of people who logged into U11 were completely confused. So start from scratch, forget the old damage/enemy/weapon system, and realize everything is going to be okay. Now onto some explanations... (btw, TL:DR, pics at the bottom to tell you how to build your weapons, if you don't care about the mechanics).

MblYCuA.png

Info in next spoiler is outdated according to 11.3.2/11.3.3 update. There is currently no rational explanation, or simple way of explaining, damage 2.0 according to Update 11.3.x. Check back later when they've settled on... idk... whatever they're trying to do.


Physical Damage
We have 3 physical damage types that (almost) all weapons have, in different amounts. Here they are:

  • Impact - Most effective on shields
  • Puncture - Most effective on armor
  • Slash - Most effective on health/flesh (non-robotic)

That seems simple enough, right? Well, those of you who have been enjoying Pokemon Snap in space, if you check the enemies in your Wardex (Codex), you may notice:

  • Corpus - Have health and shields, but NO armor
  • Grineer - Have health and armor, but NO shields
  • Infested - Have health, but NO armor OR shields

Using those 2 key pieces of knowledge about damage types and enemy types, you should now be able to look at your weapons properly. Let's take a few examples, starting with the loudest complaint: Soma
MjOpCd3.png
Using what you just learned about damage types, you SHOULD be able to see that this is probably never going to be a good weapon to use against high level Corpus. Why? Because Corpus rely on heavy shields which are weak to impact damage, of which Soma sadly has little to begin with. Soma is fairly even on puncture and slash however, with high crit. This means you should boost your puncture/slash damage, slap on some crit mods, and you'll be able to destroy Grineer and Infested. Soma is now most efficient and effective against Grineer and Infested, so stop taking it into missions against Corpus and expecting miracles.

R2ZFOkj.jpg
So now looking at the Boar, out of the 3 physical damages, it has high impact and medium slash damage. Judging from that alone, your most beneficial build will be as an anti-Corpus weapon, because Corpus shields are weak against impact damage, and Crewmen's health is weak to Slash. Also, the extra slash damage Boar has is nice, because when elemental damages are calculated, they're based on the percentage of your total physical damage (Impact + Puncture + Slash). So it may be worthwhile to boost Boar's slash damage as well.

3GjUIoW.png
Despair has a large chunk of base puncture damage, which is most effective on armor. The proper build here would be focusing on boosting puncture, slapping on a max No Return mod for +60% puncture damage. Why not use a max Razor Shot mod too, so I can boost Slash damage by 60%? Well, look at the math:

  • Base puncture damage * 60% is equal to 44 * 1.6 = 70.4 damage
  • Base slash damage * 60% is equal to 8.2 * 1.6 = 13.12 damage... kinda feels like you wasted power points by using this mod for an extra ~5 damage, huh?

Here's a quick cheat sheet for determining builds at a glance (Updated for 11.0.7):
5W8yb5u.png



Elemental Damage
There are 10 possible elemental types, but that doesn't mean you should use all of them at once. Just like with the physical damage types, some elemental types are more useful on certain weapons than others. Here's a quick overview of what they are and how they combine:
uqSxITt.png
Well, if you played with the old damage system, you know Corpus shields are weak against Cold, and they can be stunned by Electricity if they don't have shields up. Infested have resistance to electricity, but are particularly weak to Heat. Grineer are really tough, but Corrosive causes heavy damage to their thick armor, leaving the exposed flesh open to Heat, Viral, and Blast damage.

The number one rule with Damage 2.0 is:

  • Use the right tool for the job, and compliment your weapon's base stats.

Learn to think of your weapons as anti-Corpus, anti-Grineer, or anti-Infested. When you start viewing it like that, it becomes completely obvious that you need to use an elemental that Corpus are weak against on your anti-Corpus weapon. If you've got a high puncture weapon, you're going to want the Corrosive element as well, because that's what Grineer are weak against.  A heavy impact weapon? That's great for Corpus, so add on some Magnetic element. Slash weapons are particularly useful for... you guessed it, Infested! Simply add some Heat and Blast damage and go eradicate some Infested areas of the galaxy.

The primary elementals are fairly straightforward, but I also like to divide the combined elementals into 2 categories:
Utility

  • Blast - Stun/knockdown
  • Gas - Poison AoE
  • Radiation - Confusion and slowed fire rate/reduced accuracy

Direct

  • Magnetic - Shield reduction
  • Viral - Health reduction
  • Corrosive - Armor reduction/removal

Utility is most useful as a secondary effect, on top of a primary effect you've given your weapon. For example, Embolist already defaults to Toxin damage (a primary), and it's really nice to have Blast (secondary from fire and ice) on top of that to keep things locked down.

29uixir.jpg



Hopefully that explains most of what DE Scott intended, and it really is an elegant design for weapons and enemies, once the kinks are worked out and it's explained to players better in-game. Any more questions?

Updates:

  • DE_Steve has suggested Radiation against Grineer, and testing it out with Synapse shows little penetration through Armor, but to non-armored Grineer health it's fairly effective. (Although in-game codex states no weakness)
  • Added FAQ below based on questions in this thread.
  • Updated information further based on testing and feedback (Thanks to: Phoenix86, NegimaSonic, MeduSalem)
  • Updated according to U11.3.3, I guess.  Hugely controversial update to Damage 2.0, which... dunno... I can't think of any way to explain it in its current state, sorry guys.  Updated the cheat sheet at the top at least.

FAQ Follow-up Questions


Q: Is it true that there are no more armor-ignoring damage types in Damage 2.0?
A: Boost your weapon's Puncture to gain better damage against armored enemies.  You can also use the Corrosive element to reduce/remove armor, along with the Aura mod, Corrosive Projection.

Q: Do bullet type damage not work on Pure Elemental weapons (Ignis, Synpase, etc.) or was that a UI thing?
A: The unique elemental weapons (Ogris, Ignis, Synapse, etc.) use their elemental damage type as default, instead of physical damage. You can still increase this damage by using same element and generic damage mods like Serration. Example: Ogris is 300 Blast damage base, equipped with max Serration (+165%) gives it 300 * 2.65 = 795 Blast damage.

Q: Also how does status chance work? Does it allow for every damage type that the weapon has to hit special effects?
A: In patch 11.0.2, they added icons to damage numbers indicating when Statuses proc from your weapons. You'll notice the status chance is somewhat low for certain weapons, and higher for others. Unfortunately now, just because you're using Cold on your Kunai, it doesn't mean you'll be freezing enemies with every shot; the Frozen/Slowed status effect only has a small chance to proc, depending on the weapon's Status Chance. A further note, is that most of the time when a Physical status procs, it will be the status of type of damage that you have the most of on that weapon. So if you have high impact on a weapon, if a physical status procs, it will most likely be Impact's stun/knockback.

Q: What does armor/puncture damage amount do, exactly? Do enemies now have a set amount of armor (like shields and health) that you blast through before doing damage to health? Or does armor prevent X% of damage from reaching health, and when you deplete the armor you do 100% health damage?
A: Armor does not deplete like shields, but you can reduce/remove an enemy's armor using Corrosive status effects, the Corrosive Projection aura mod, and possibly other mods/abilities. Armor works like mitigation and prevents X % of damage from reaching health, so you'd probably want more puncture than the other two physical types.

Q: Is slash the only physical damage type that lowers health, essentially making the other physical damages useless on low level Infested?
A: No, all damage types are supposed to be able to damage health, but Slash is more effective at reducing non-robotic health fast. It's also cautioned that Impact and Puncture are up to 50% less effective against Infested, meaning you would be better using a weapon whose physical damage was mostly focused on Slash.

Q: So we're pretty much forced to go a one build kind of way with weapons?
A: Somewhat, but not really. For physical damage you're usually better off complimenting your weapon's base stats, but you can find a lot of versatility in the effects you put on it. Technically you could also fit up to 3 elemental effects on your weapon, utility and otherwise, but they may be competing for proc chance (we're not sure yet). It's really just up to your personal preference at the time, what you want to go for...

For example, Synapse is a beautifully versatile weapon. It defaults as electric damage, which can be:

  • Boosted purely as Electric, or
  • Combined with Cold to form Magnetic and drain Corpus shields fast, or
  • Combined with Heat to form Radiation to debilitate and confuse most enemies, or
  • Combined with Toxin to form Corrosive and melt Grineer armor, or
  • Combined with one of the above and Blast/Gas for even more crowd control possibilities...
Edited by _Aahz
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not everypne has the brakk, and it cant be bought or obtained, and the gremlins have a greater effective range, but the brakk is fantastic, even though it got nerfed

 

You're right... :s

 

Maybe they will make it available again in another event far off in the future... I remember being said that at some point event-only-weapons will be made available again, but not soon. Also I don't know if they changed their mind about that since then.

Edited by MeduSalem
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Has anyone posted maxed out stats for the different weapons and the best combinations of each?

I have found the LEX to be one of the most powerful guns period.

with the right mods in it the puncture is insane, the elementals can be vicious. too bad to get the most out of it you have to sacrifice the faster reload mods.

from the get go this gun was a killer. as well the braton (not the mk-1) is very flexible and usable one or two bullets work well in to the upper 20 levels of factions.

after combining the elementals and physical damage as nice as it is- i can see this really changing the game too much, as it turns out. it has made it more thoughtful but the big hitters have remained so.

Ortho is still excellent in crowds and can be powered up ridiculously for slam and wall attacks. 

with all the load outs possible, i feel the system can be improved on by carrying multiple weapons (like in a gear pack with a period to load out say 15 seconds of crouched inactivity) after all you can carry most pistols akimbo, so why not three guns and a melee? 

 

and please have the mods listed to what you have loaded them to when it lists duplicates.

 

I have forma'ed my weapons almost max now, and as such have a few not all of them. 

 

the hierarchy and linking of modslots can also be done visually so it doesn't matter where you put them, just place the link chain to the mod so you can create radiation or blast or virus as you choose versus lining them up a certain way and it not working out as described...

that's all i got now

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JzbGogk.jpg

 

Which is how I feel about it.

 

I guess the new update made it a whole lot more difficult to create a new simple picture for everyone to understand because of the different sub-categories in each faction... ^^

 

So give _Aahz some time to adjust them, I'm pretty sure he knows already.

Edited by MeduSalem
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uVpnMOd.png

Dunno guys, the numbers are all over the board, and the system is really starting to lack a clear sense of intent.  Adding more faction sub-types doesn't really help the problem where it was already difficult to understand the existing types.  Starting to wonder if any DE have seen this thread, what they think of it, and/or if it's used as input for damage decisions.  Originally in General Discussion and now unpinned in Players helping Players though, so not likely... And they probably (hopefully) have better internal documents that paint a clearer picture of Damage 2.0 for the dev team. In any case, only way to look at building your guns is still boiling it down to the same question, "Am I going into a Grineer, Corpus, or Infested mission?".

Faction Changes

Grineer

  • Machinery sub-type is pointless overall, since rollers and regulators are minor, uncommon annoyances that die quickly using anything.
  • 2 types of armor now, Ferrite (weaker) and Alloy (stronger).
    • Ferrite is weak to Corrosive and Puncture.
  • Alloy is weak to Radiation and Puncture.
  • Neither suffer from resistances to the other's strength (Corrosive-Radiation), thankfully.

[*]Cloned Flesh is only mildly important, once you get through armor, and doesn't really matter what you use, as long as it's not Gas.  Cloned Flesh is very weak to Viral damage.

Corpus

  • Fairly even split between the two types of health, Flesh and Robotic, which require widely different damage types to be effective against either.
  • 2 types of shields now, regular Shield and Proto Shield (stronger).  Difference is minimal and fairly pointless, as you'll be using Magnetic and Impact damage against both.
Infested
  • Multiple sub-types added, making things more... interesting/good/confusing/stupid (
"It's not stupid, it's advaaaanced!") Those two Infested that look and behave similarly, Runners and Leapers, have different types of health for some reason, and it only really affects their resistances. Runners and Crawlers are strong against cold, and Leapers/Chargers are strong against Viral and Radiation damage... just because. Ancient Disrupters and Toxic Ancients have the most notable change, being that they are now classified as Fossilized opponents, which (you guessed it) are different than the other Infested. They're basically organically armored now, requiring Corrosive and Blast damage. Ancient Healers have their own unique sub-type, Infested Sinew, weak to Radiation but strong against Blast damage. Mostly pointless to base your weapon build on it, just don't use Blast damage on it. For the Ancients and between the 2 types (Fossilized vs. Sinew), they have a tradeoff on Cold/Radiation/Blast damage that makes those damage types nearly pointless to use on your weapons.


Final verdicts, when building your weapons for Update 11.5.3
Going into Grineer missions:

  • For weak Grineer (Lancers, Troopers, etc.), have one Puncture-heavy weapon for weaker Grineer, equipped with Corrosive (Toxin + Electric) and Heat.
  • For stronger Grineer (Elite Lancer, Bombard, etc.), use another Puncture-heavy weapon with Radiation (Heat + Electric) and Viral (Cold + Toxin).
Going into Corpus missions:
  • All of your weapons should have Impact and Magnetic (Electric + Cold) damage.
  • As an alternative, it may be efficient to have one weapon modded for primarily Electric damage only, for unshielded Robotic opponents with high Robotic health. (rare case?)

Going into Infested missions:

  • For Ancients, use Slash and Corrosive (Toxin + Electric), then make a gamble on using Blast (Heat + Cold). Non-Healer Ancients are weak against Blast damage, but Ancient Healers tank Blast damage hard.
  • For regular Infested, simply use Slash and Gas (Heat + Toxin), or Slash and Heat.



Rant and opinions

Last thoughts... I'm sadly and slowly losing interest between patches. It feels too much like they've lost the stability of their original vision of damage 2.0, and are kinda just picking damage types/weaknesses/resistances out of a hat. You have two ways of designing the system: realistically, or balanced direct counters (rock-paper-scissors). The realistic approach is intuitive but unbalanced, because for example, the same Corrosive substance that is highly effective at eating through the enemy's armor in 2 seconds flat would also completely melt away the person wearing it, making it overpowered. The systemic direct counters approach isn't always intuitive (paper beats rock somehow, even though rock would just tear through paper normally), but it's highly balanced if correctly designed. Example is Pokemon, where Dragon types were rare and somewhat overpowered early on, so a new Fairy type was added, and Fairies are strong against Dragons... just because.

The damage system in U11.5.3 is too wishywashy, not only trying to follow the lore and be realistic, but also trying to implement direct counters (maybe? kinda feels like they're just trying to make sure all elements are used equally as much; ie.- "nobody gets left out"). I really don't mind a good complex system, but I'm getting tired of trying out a new beta version every patch while devs try to figure things out. I love having the codex and being able to see this system in its raw form, but if they keep complicating it without intuitive reasons... we're going to need some kind of in-mission Pokedex popup in the UI, hoving over the enemy and showing us the strengths/weaknesses in realtime, and how screwed we are because we brought the wrong damage type into the mission.


Also, +1 agreed with MeduSalem and Samuel L. Jackson.

Edited by _Aahz
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Thank you very much for your effort to explain this incredible huddle of nonsense! I really hope DEs are going to making towards the so called "final" or "stable" (and maybe "understandable") damage 2.x-system. Because the way it is handled right now is GARBAGE! Amen.

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*awesome stuff snipped*

 

Thanks for the time and efforts put into this _Aahz.  

 

In the same boat about losing interest between patches, though I've lost most interest since 2.0 came out, and it's only this wonderful thread that's keeping me somewhat attached to the whole mess and trying (a little bit) to figure it out.

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JzbGogk.jpg

 

Which is how I feel about it.

 

I guess the new update made it a whole lot more difficult to create a new simple picture for everyone to understand because of the different sub-categories in each faction... ^^

 

So give _Aahz some time to adjust them, I'm pretty sure he knows already.

Same 

Built a phage, calling it a good day as long as i dont hit a negative damage point i'll manage

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