The Spotlight's on Atlas

[KitMeHarder]

Despite what most would say, I think Atlas is in a surprisingly solid spot... It's just that he has so much clunk, that it can feel pretty bad to play him at times.

• Passive
  • Excess healing via rubble should grant Atlas armor.
  • Rubble Heap augment change: "Every 50 Rubble above 1200 grants Landslide 25% damage, dash speed, dash range, and energy cost reduction. Capping at 100%."
  • (His knockdown immunity could linger for 1.5-2 seconds upon leaving the ground.)
• 1) Landslide
  • The combo mechanic can stay for the damage and energy cost reduction, but the range needs to always be the max 6m.
  • Remove the ragdoll on the final combo.
    • All it does is make you kill enemies slower and make it so you're unable to target them with another dash.
  • Remove the "end lag" his punches have.
    • After a dash, Atlas will just stand there an "pose" for a second if you don't have another enemy to dash to. He needs to have all control back the instant the damage is dealt.
  • The dash needs to scale with range (I.E. Garuda).
    • Or the dash needs to partially scale with range and we need to be able to aim at the floor/wall/open air/enemy/etc... and dash without targeting only enemies. 
    • (If we stick with the targeting enemies only version, it would be nice if we could just hold down the ability. That way as soon as an enemy is within the crosshairs, we instantly dash to them, instead of having to spam the button.)
  • Increase the base crit chance to at least 15%.
    • Raw damage just doesn't cut it in high end content, you need either crits and/or status. IMO crits fit the best with him... but I shouldn't need 5+ sources of crit chance for it to viable. 
  • His shields should be immune to damage during his dash, just like his health.
• 2) Tectonics
  • Allies within X meters of the wall when it's cast gain 35% damage reduction, capping at 75%. Allies also gain 50% more energy from all sources (can be substituted for a different energy/energy economy stat).
    • Last until wall is destroyed or until it's redeployed.
• 3) Petrify
  • Make it radial instead of a cone, keeping the line-of-sight aspect.
    • (The range can be reduced to like 12m if need be.)
  • Make it an upper-body animation, that way you can still move/run during it.
  • Reduce Petrify's energy cost from 75 to 50.
• 4) Rumblers
  • Remove the ragdolls they do. Same reasoning as above.
  • Shorten cast time from 2.5 seconds to like 1.5 seconds or less.
    • (Remove the AoE petrify on cast if need be.)
  • Any damage Rumbler's do will now petrify enemies.
    • Has the same duration as his 3
  • Rumblers should be CC immune.
  • Add a ground slam to Rumblers, like the one his Rumbled augment has. (With a cooldown of 6-8 seconds every time 2 or more enemies are in range.)
  • Rumbled augment:
    • You should be able to use all maneuvers during it (i.e. Bullet Jump).
    • The thrown bolder should scale with ability range and should match Landslide's crit chance.

 

Feel to share your suggestions or rebuttals.

[PublikDomain]

My biggest complaints come down to his augments.

His Rubble is capped at 1,500, but Rubble Heap only activates at 1,400. That gives you just a 100-Rubble window to make use of it, which decays to below the threshold after just 20 seconds. Compare that to Khora's Accumulating Whipclaw, which is more powerful and decays so slowly it might as well not decay at all. A Rubble cap closer to 1,800 would feel a lot better.

And then there's Rumbled, which is conceptually awesome but playing as a Rumbler is just so doofy and clunky. You can't even jump! It's possible to make things feel big and heavy without completely turning off basic mobility mechanics, just look at Necramechs. And not only can you not move very well, you're stuck with his weak boulder throw. 100 Impact damage with 0% crit is just garbage. The boulder throw could just deal the damage Landslide deals, idk. Make it count as a Landslide hit. Or move it to a different ability, like Tectonics, and just let me use my guns and melee.

I want to turn myself into a big smashy rock man, but turning myself into a big smashy rock man just isn't worth it. Instead I play Khora, who can do everything Atlas does but better.

[KitMeHarder]

I agree, a good chunk of his augments suck, but I was mainly just trying to get his base kit in a good spot.

16 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Compare that to Khora's Accumulating Whipclaw, which is more powerful

I'd probably disagree. Is it a pain to stay above 1400? Yes (but I think my above changes help alleviate that). But...

• 350% additive power strength for only Whipclaw

Compared to

• Landslide cost zero energy
• Travels twice as fast
• (unlisted) Travels 9m further
• And does 100% more multiplicative damage
• (Can create a self feeding loop with Path of Statues)

Would you really say AW is more powerful?

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I have two major issues with Atlas that make him very difficult to enjoy:

1. Needing to be at full health to build the Rubble gauge feels horrible. Atlas is built to be a health tank, so taking health damage shouldn't make his life harder. Rubble should both heal and be added to the gauge, regardless of whether you need the healing. No question about it.
2. Petrify costing 75 energy is kind of ridiculous, considering how useful it is as a combo ability with Atlas' other 3 abilities. I'd love to use it to heal my Rumblers or buff Tectonics, but I don't have the energy unless I build for higher energy max, efficiency, and high energy generation, which is too much investment for some light synergy. Petrify should cost 50 energy, if not 25.

Obviously Tectonics is still a terrible ability, but I think it needs to be something else entirely, and I don't have any ideas. Building a small wall and then knocking over enemies in a straight path just isn't very interesting.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

56 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

My biggest complaints come down to his augments.

His Rubble is capped at 1,500, but Rubble Heap only activates at 1,400. That gives you just a 100-Rubble window to make use of it, which decays to below the threshold after just 20 seconds. Compare that to Khora's Accumulating Whipclaw, which is more powerful and decays so slowly it might as well not decay at all. A Rubble cap closer to 1,800 would feel a lot better.

Use this augment with his petrifying landslide augment, and it maintains itself. 2 slots is alot but worth consistent double damage.

[EinheriarJudith]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Use this augment with his petrifying landslide augment, and it maintains itself. 2 slots is alot but worth consistent double damage.

augments should not be used to FIX problems. they are supposed to alter playstyle. 

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

20 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

augments should not be used to FIX problems. they are supposed to alter playstyle. 

An augment that fixes a problem is better than no fix to a problem.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

I agree, a good chunk of his augments suck, but I was mainly just trying to get his base kit in a good spot.

And to that end I think everything you mention is fine. But I really think it's the augments that make Atlas special. There's just so much in there to use to tweak your build. Like he's got 6 augments, and all of them do a pretty good job of changing how his kit functions (on paper). Most of the time augments are just "hurr durr more damage" and his for the most part aren't. They're all mechanics.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Would you really say AW is more powerful?

Yes, I really would. Most if it is just that Whipclaw is better than Landslide, but even ignoring that:

• Zero Energy cost is nice - but Atlas already gets steep Energy discounts for spamming Landslide and it's very easy to min-max Energy into not mattering. I already don't care about Energy on both Atlas and Khora because the costs are already negligible.
• It travels faster, sure - but still not as fast as Whipclaw.
• It travels farther, sure - but still not as far as Whipclaw.
• It deals 2x damage, great - but Accumulating Whipclaw deals up to 4.5x damage.
• It's also, like you say, a pain to stay above 1,400. Meanwhile it isn't a pain to maintain Accumulating Whipclaw, and you can maintain it without having to combo or synergize with anything or give up an extra mod slot to fit another augment.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Is it a pain to stay above 1400? Yes (but I think my above changes help alleviate that).

How so? Making Petrify radial within viewing range instead of a cone might petrify more enemies? That's all I saw related to building up rubble. That's the only mechanic of his that's really stood out to me on its own as being not quite right and the main one that, if anything were to change, I'd like to see addressed.

43 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Use this augment with his petrifying landslide augment, and it maintains itself. 2 slots is alot but worth consistent double damage.

That'd kinda the problem I face with him... 2 slots is a lot, and with Rumbled it's 3! 3/8ths of a build going to Augments is steep. Meanwhile Khora just needs 1 slot for consistent quadruple damage.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

It seams like you like the landslide mechanics.   I like Atlas for his petrify mostly.  I did wish his wall did more.  I wish his rumblers worked a bit differently.  I have a thread on here for atlas somewhere lol.   

I totally agree Petrify being 75 energy is insane.  Condemn is a very similar ability AoE/function wise and its only 25 energy.   Both are the subsumed ability.   Atlas has to build hard for efficiency just so he can spam it though.  So does anyone you would ever put it on.  Petrify should also be 25 energy!!!

========================

I subbed Pull onto my Atlas.   Hmmmm I havent used Atlas since mag was changed....     But my build was to pull stuff in and then hit them with the 360 degree petrify of rumble.  

I like atlas because he is a melee frame but he has controls and stuns.  Makes him fun to play.

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Most if it is just that Whipclaw is better than Landslide

I mean the augments only, not the base abilities. 

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It deals 2x damage, great - but Accumulating Whipclaw deals up to 4.5x damage.

You're a math guy I believe, right? You know this isn't the whole truth. This is only at base, the more power strength you add, the more Atlas' damage multiplier pulls ahead.

• Most Khora's run 40% strength because of diminishing returns (and they want the range), so really she only has a 3.9x multiplier.
• Where as Atlas only needs 195% strength to match that Khora's bonus. And the more you get, the exponentially more Atlas surpasses her in this regard.

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

How so? Making Petrify radial within viewing range instead of a cone might petrify more enemies? That's all I saw related to building up rubble.

• Rumbler's now petrify every enemy they damage, meaning more passive rubble.
• Tectonics causes you to tank more before you take health damage.
• I suggested Landslide potentially make your shields immune too, so you have shield gate more often.

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

That'd kinda the problem I face with him... 2 slots is a lot, and with Rumbled it's 3! 3/8ths of a build going to Augments is steep. Meanwhile Khora just needs 1 slot for consistent quadruple damage.

Path is just a QoL and you don't need Rumbled at all; It's still 1:1 for how many augments you need for the damage in the end.

I'm fine with Rubble Heap getting buffed via making it more lenient, I just disagree with some of your reasonings.

-------------------------

 

And I see why you'd compare Whipclaw and Landslide, but the frames play very different. After her nerf, Khora is an immobile spider that relies on her range and CC to survive. But Atlas brings the action to the enemy, and tanks very well while doing it. 

And his damage isn't the reason I made this thread, I already have a build that mows through SP Grineer... It's just that he feels so rough and unpolished when he does it (especially when you can't chain Landslides). Case-in-point, almost nothing in the thread ask for more damage (only thing is the +10% crit chance for Landslide).

[KitMeHarder]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Petrify costing 75 energy is kind of ridiculous

4 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

I totally agree Petrify being 75 energy is insane.

I wouldn't be against it being 50 energy. But just curious, was Tectonic's new energy buff not enough to help remedy this?

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

Just now, KitMeHarder said:

But just curious, was Tectonic's new energy buff not enough to help remedy this?

The Tectonics energy buff just feels weird to me. I put up a stone wall, and being near this stone wall gives me more energy? Is this some "blessing of mother Gaia" thing? Besides that weirdness, it probably would help, but I'd have to actually play it in different missions to know if it fixes the issue. 

[Raarsi]

I just want to be able to jump in Rumbled form.  Could be the regular bullet jump, could be a hulk jump, doesn't matter, I just wanna make the rock jump.

A smash-like shockwave for his melee attack while in that form would be nice, but honestly, all I want is to make the rock jump.

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Is this some "blessing of mother Gaia" thing?

Theme's are great, but I've never been one to rigidly stick to them. If a frame's missing something, I'm not going to let the theme prevent me from suggesting it be added (to an extent).

But I'm sure a justification could be found via something like resonances or harmonics. I.E. "Tectonics resonate with Atlas. Matching his frequency, they increase the efficiency at which energy binds to his crystalline matrices."

[PublikDomain]

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I mean the augments only, not the base abilities. 

I meant more "the base ability is better, which makes the augment that much better". Being able to reliably crit, hit from range, and aim at things makes a big difference, and those advantages just make the augment more effective too. But even beyond that, like I said, I think the augment is better as well. It just gives you more for less.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

You're a math guy I believe, right? You know this isn't the whole truth. This is only at base, the more power strength you add, the more Atlas' damage multiplier pulls ahead.

• Most Khora's run 40% strength because of diminishing returns (and they want the range), so really she only has a 3.9x multiplier.
• Where as Atlas only needs 195% strength to match that Khora's bonus. And the more you get, the exponentially more Atlas surpasses her in this regard.

That "whole truth" just makes it worse for Atlas IMO. Even if you run her at 40% Strength, Khora's 3.9x multiplier only costs one mod slot. To get the same 3.9x from Atlas you'd need Rubble Heap and, like you say, 195% Strength. That costs additional mod slots Khora can spend on whatever she wants.

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Rumbler's now petrify every enemy they damage, meaning more passive rubble.

Oh, I missed that. Either way, I'm not sure if the availability of Rubble is what was making it feel bad to me. Whether I have Rubble available to pick up or not, it still feels like it's gone too fast. I'd still much prefer a wider buffer. A longer decay delay might work too.

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Path is just a QoL and you don't need Rumbled at all; It's still 1:1 for how many augments you need for the damage in the end.

I'm fine with Rubble Heap getting buffed via making it more lenient, I just disagree with some of your reasonings.

-------------------------

 

And I see why you'd compare Whipclaw and Landslide, but the frames play very different. After her nerf, Khora is an immobile spider that relies on her range and CC to survive. But Atlas brings the action to the enemy, and tanks very well while doing it. 

And his damage isn't the reason I made this thread, I already have a build that mows through SP Grineer... It's just that he feels so rough and unpolished when he does it (especially when you can't chain Landslides). Case-in-point, almost nothing in the thread ask for more damage (only thing is the +10% crit chance for Landslide).

I'm not the one that brought up Path of Statues or his damage, lol. You and element did. When I first replied it was only about Rubble Heap's sustainability and Rumbled's doofy movement and weapon mechanics. Personally I think his damage is fine, it just costs more mod slots and maintenance than what you can do more easily and conveniently with Khora. If Atlas were less inconvenient I think it'd be fine. And while I don't need Rumbled - I want Rumbled. I think it's neat. I like all of his augments and I want to use them, but they take up a lot of room which doesn't leave much room for anything else. That wouldn't matter so much if they weren't so clunky.

And I dunno about other Khoras, but I still play her the same as I always have: mobile and aggressive. I play her much the same way I played Atlas, hence the comparison. Beyond that they both have a Pseudo-Exalted 1 that deals big damage, adds, CC and area denial, even looting augments. They're very similar frames.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 3/8/2023 at 3:15 PM, PublikDomain said:

His Rubble is capped at 1,500, but Rubble Heap only activates at 1,400. That gives you just a 100-Rubble window to make use of it, which decays to below the threshold after just 20 seconds. Compare that to Khora's Accumulating Whipclaw, which is more powerful and decays so slowly it might as well not decay at all. A Rubble cap closer to 1,800 would feel a lot better.

The biggest issue about this to me, is how difficult it is to actually get up to the threshold in higher level content.  Fighting energy management while also not gaining rubble because it's going to heal chip damage makes it hard to get to that threshold.  I actually don't have an issue maintaining it once I get there, but getting there is a huge pain in most mission types because there just aren't enough enemies to actually hit the amount needed.

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And I dunno about other Khoras, but I still play her the same as I always have: mobile and aggressive.

She used to essentially be my main, and I too liked to play her as a very mobile frame. But I have tried her many times since her nerf throughout the years... the LOS check always eventually feels horrid.

[KitMeHarder]

After reading the suggestions and doing more testing, these are the changes/additions I'd do.

• Passive
  • Excess healing via rubble should grant Atlas armor.
  • Rubble Heap augment change: "Every 50 Rubble above 1200 grants Landslide 25% damage, dash speed, dash range, and energy cost reduction. Capping at 100%."
  • (His knockdown immunity could linger for 1.5-2 seconds upon leaving the ground.)
• 1
  • His shields should be immune to damage during his dash, just like his health.
• 2
  • n/a
• 3
  • Reduce Petrify's energy cost from 75 to 50.
• 4
  • Rumblers should be CC immune.
  • Add a ground slam to Rumblers, like the one his Rumbled augment has. (With a cooldown of 6-8 seconds every time 2 or more enemies are in range.)
  • Rumbled augment:
    • You should be able to use all maneuvers during it (i.e. Bullet Jump).
    • The thrown bolder should scale with ability range and should match Landslide's crit chance.

[Skoomaseller]

On 3/9/2023 at 4:30 AM, KitMeHarder said:

Would you really say AW is more powerful?

I can 1 shot a room hanging from my Dome of Death in SP Grineer survival with a single cast of Whipclaw so yeah, accumulating whipclaw is kinda nuts, even more so if you compare it to Landslide.

Whipclaw is also much easier to build for. No need to invest in str, no need to worry about TF and BR penalties.

Just put on the augment, slap on viral + carnis mandible + blood rush + weeping wounds + base damage on your melee, or that 5/5 godroll riven that you might have. Good to go!

when I look at khora then back at atlas all I feel is... pain. endless suffering.

[Skoomaseller]

On 3/9/2023 at 3:46 AM, KitMeHarder said:

Despite what most would say, I think Atlas is in a surprisingly solid spot... It's just that he has so much clunk, that it can feel pretty bad to play him at times.

• Passive
  • Excess healing via rubble should grant Atlas armor.
  • Rubble Heap augment change: "Every 50 Rubble above 1200 grants Landslide 25% damage, dash speed, dash range, and energy cost reduction. Capping at 100%."
  • (His knockdown immunity could linger for 1.5-2 seconds upon leaving the ground.)
• 1) Landslide
  • The combo mechanic can stay for the damage and energy cost reduction, but the range needs to always be the max 6m.
  • Remove the ragdoll on the final combo.
    • All it does is make you kill enemies slower and make it so you're unable to target them with another dash.
  • Remove the "end lag" his punches have.
    • After a dash, Atlas will just stand there an "pose" for a second if you don't have another enemy to dash to. He needs to have all control back the instant the damage is dealt.
  • The dash needs to scale with range (I.E. Garuda).
    • Or the dash needs to partially scale with range and we need to be able to aim at the floor/wall/open air/enemy/etc... and dash without targeting only enemies. 
    • (If we stick with the targeting enemies only version, it would be nice if we could just hold down the ability. That way as soon as an enemy is within the crosshairs, we instantly dash to them, instead of having to spam the button.)
  • Increase the base crit chance to at least 15%.
    • Raw damage just doesn't cut it in high end content, you need either crits and/or status. IMO crits fit the best with him... but I shouldn't need 5+ sources of crit chance for it to viable. 
  • His shields should be immune to damage during his dash, just like his health.
• 2) Tectonics
  • Allies within X meters of the wall when it's cast gain 35% damage reduction, capping at 75%. Allies also gain 50% more energy from all sources (can be substituted for a different energy/energy economy stat).
    • Last until wall is destroyed or until it's redeployed.
• 3) Petrify
  • Make it radial instead of a cone, keeping the line-of-sight aspect.
    • (The range can be reduced to like 12m if need be.)
  • Make it an upper-body animation, that way you can still move/run during it.
  • Reduce Petrify's energy cost from 75 to 50.
• 4) Rumblers
  • Remove the ragdolls they do. Same reasoning as above.
  • Shorten cast time from 2.5 seconds to like 1.5 seconds or less.
    • (Remove the AoE petrify on cast if need be.)
  • Any damage Rumbler's do will now petrify enemies.
    • Has the same duration as his 3
  • Rumblers should be CC immune.
  • Add a ground slam to Rumblers, like the one his Rumbled augment has. (With a cooldown of 6-8 seconds every time 2 or more enemies are in range.)
  • Rumbled augment:
    • You should be able to use all maneuvers during it (i.e. Bullet Jump).
    • The thrown bolder should scale with ability range and should match Landslide's crit chance.

 

Feel to share your suggestions or rebuttals.

- Imo, tectonics is a cool ability but it's utterly useless. There aren't many situations where Tectonics would be handy, and even then, it is outclassed by other abilities. It should be replaced with something new. 

I had an idea for Atlas floating in my mind a while:

Unburdened: Massive, slow AOE ability where Atlas picks up, then chucks, a huge boulder at the target location, dealing 3x Landslide's damage at the time of cast. So 12x combo, maxed blood rush and weeping wounds with modded Viral. Unburdened deals triple that damage and inherits Landslide's cc/cd/sc.

Inspired by actual Atlas from Greek mythology, but getting tired of holding up the world. Heh.

- I agree with Landslide almost entirely. Raw damage is a thing of the past. I think it should be hybrid-viable. Say, 25% CC, 2.5x CD, 25% SC. Also reduce its initial energy cost.

- Agree completely with Petrify.

- Agree with Rumblers, but I also think their melee attacks should scale with Landslide's damage. Same as my idea above.

[AegidiusF]

Le 08/03/2023 à 20:46, KitMeHarder a dit :

Remove the ragdoll on the final combo.

Le 08/03/2023 à 20:46, KitMeHarder a dit :

Make it radial instead of a cone, keeping the line-of-sight aspect.

Le 08/03/2023 à 20:46, KitMeHarder a dit :

Remove the ragdolls they do. Same reasoning as above.

I like Atlas very much and I've liked many of your propositions, but these three changes above are, in my opinion, extremely necessary.