Limbo Rework - Suggestions to make him teamfriendly, less cheesy, but also far more deadly!

[Azamagon]

So, I'll just get straight to the point here:

Issues with Limbo:

• The Rift is highly intrusive for non-Limbo players, especially those with no strongly damaging powers (like Loki and Nyx)
• When he works well, he's just outright cheesily strong (due to Stasis, mainly)
• Limbo works quite poorly with other Limbo players in the squad, such as being able to cancel other players' Stasis, among other things.
• He deals poorly with certain mechanics in the game, mostly Bosses, but also Eximus units to some extents.
• Limbo has THREE abilities which all basicly just deal with putting targets into the Rift, which feels like a waste imo.
• Limbo's Banish is, generally speaking, a pretty terrible Subsume skill.

So, here are my proposals on how to try and alleviate these issues:

The Rift plane

• Now, when Limbo or player-controlled allies (but not NPCs) are inside the Rift, they can still interact with the material plane, but are temporarily displaced back into the material plane doing so - and vice versa. In more detail:
  • When in the Rift, moving around in any way (except rolling, as that toggles off the Rift entirely) and/or casting abilities = You stay in the Rift.
  • When in the Rift, shooting/meleeing enemies or breakable objects, hacking consoles, using Life support, picking up manually grabbed items, activating buttons/elevators etc - interacting with anything which is on the material plane = You briefly come back to the real world (for as long as the action takes), then return to the Rift a brief moment later.
    • This is also true while in a Cataclysm bubble, making you able to attack enemies outside of it - with the risk that comes with the exposure of course.
  • Conversely: When in the material plane, shooting/meleeing etc or interacting with objects which are in the Rift, you are briefly taken into the Rift.
    • Again, this is also true while outside a Cataclysm bubble, making you able to attack enemies inside of it - with the risk that comes with the exposure of course.
  • If there is a mixed crowd of enemies (some in the Rift, some not), priority goes to interacting with the Riftbound enemies.
  • Furthermore, if you are mid-action with something in the real plane - like hacking a console - and you get Banished, it will NOT interrupt the hacking- it will just wait to put you in the Rift until you are done hacking.
• Limbo and allies (including NPCs) in the Rift are more durable; Limbo gets 75% damage reduction, all other allies (players and allied NPCs) get a 50% damage reduction.
  • This damage reduction lingers for 2 seconds after leaving the Rift, then gradually diminishes over 5 seconds. Getting back into the Rift instantly restores the damage reduction to its maximum.
• Limbo and allies still get 2 energy per second while in the Rift.
• Enemies enterring the Rift still suffer 300 impact damage.
• Basic loot (ammo, orbs, credits, mods etc) can now be picked up even while in the Rift.
• Specific change (bugfix even?): Kuva Fortress turrets and mines no longer hurts Limbo or allies inside the Rift.
• Limbo is no longer forced out of the Rift when he leaves Cataclysm - his passive rift-dodge now works better as a "toggle" for where he will be when he exits Cataclysm. For more clarity, here are some examples:
  • If a Limbo player who has enterred the rift via the dodge-passive then enters and exits a Cataclysm bubble, the Limbo will NOT automatically be put back into the material world, but rather stay in the rift
  • The opposite is also true: If a Limbo player who has enterred the real world via the dodge-passive then enters and exits a Cataclysm bubble, the Limbo WILL automatically be put back into the material world
  • If a Limbo player who has enterred the Rift via the dodge-passive then enters a Cataclysm bubble, then dodges while in the bubble (technically putting them in the material world, but remains in the Rift due to Cataclysm's presence), then exits the Cataclysm bubble, Limbo WILL automatically be put back into the materialworld. And vice versa is also true.

Overall, these Rift changes alone would solve the arguably biggest issue with Limbo; the intrusion upon other players. It also quite directly enhances Banish as a subsume ability, as you can now for example Banish enemies and instantly attack them and briefly get into the Rift to deal with them yourself. It's not as powerful as it is on Limbo, generally speaking, but it is now a quick little "divide and conquer" skill you can more freely tinker with on other Warframes.
Furthermore, it also helps with the "Cataclysm edge-dancing", meaning it now always lets you attack enemies without having to move back and forth between the edge of Cataclysm.

Passive

• Limbo retains his "rift dodge" (i.e. dodging to go in or out of the Rift).
• Limbo retains his 10 energy gain when he kills an enemy who is in the Rift.
• As mentioned in the Rift section; Limbo has 75% damage reduction while in the Rift (in contrast to other allies, which only get 50% damage reduction).
• Limbo no longer leaves portals behind when doing his rift dodge.
  • Sure, it is no longer as intrusive to be put into the Rift, so these portals could stay - put they would also be entirely unnecessary now with the suggested Rift changes.

Banish

• Still casts a conical wave of Rifting energy. However, now it will put allies and enemies into the Rift, regardless of which plane Limbo is in.
  • Due to the changes I've suggested for Stasis, this change would not be as overpowered as it would be in the current form of Stasis.
  • It would be nice if the wave was visible, so you see the size of it.
• Holdcast still removes all allies and enemies affected by Banish, but only by YOUR Banish (not other Limbo's Banish targets).
  • If a target is affected by another Limbo's Banish, you can still also cast Banish on it as well. The seperate casts are simply handled completely seperately, so neither of you will block each other out.
• Banish's damage can now damage and break open breakable objects (just like Cataclysm can).
• Can now be cast on targets who are already in the Rift via Cataclysm (currently, they have to be Banished FIRST, before enterring a Cataclysm, for Banish's duration to apply on them)
• Banish on enemies:
  • They are dealt 150/300/450/600 Impact damage (up from 150/200/225/250), and are still knocked down
  • They now also suffer 20/30/40/50% more damage taken while Banished (affected by Ability Strength).
    • This further makes Banish a useful skill in his kit AND makes it further viable as a Helminth skill.
    • This vulnerability will indeed work on Eximus units as well.
• Banish on allies:
  •  Works basicly the same as now, but as noted in the Rift plane section: they can freely pop in/out of the Rift by just attacking enemies with non-Abilities or interacting with material plane objects (like hacking etc).
  • Putting Banish on an ally also Banishes their Companion now - However, the Companion will not be able pop in/out of the Rift on their own will; the Companion will be in the exact same plane their owner currently is in, regardless of the Companion's own actions.
    • Or should the Companions be able to pop in/out of the Rift? What do you think about this interaction?
  • Rolling still entirely dispels Banish from allies - However, since being Banished now has very little chance of being disruptive, maybe it could be changed to be a dispel on backflip instead (like with Volt's Speed)?
• Augment - Rift Haven: Now grants 2/3/4/5% health regeneration on allies and their companions when they are outside of the Rift (which can now happen when fighting with enemies in the material world, even while Banished), or 6/9/12/15% (down from 10/15/20/25%) health regeneration while in the Rift.
  • Limbo (or whoever the caster is, if it's a Helminth-user) and his companion will always also gets this healing bonus for the same duration, whenever casting Banish.
  • It can now also heal Eidolon Lures, and trigger Archon Intensify.

Stasis (Rename into Quantum Fracture?)

Due to the massive QoL and buffs to the Rift plane, Stasis is in for a nerf (with minor counterbuffs):

• While active, enemies in the Rift are paused for 0,5 seconds, every 1 second (giving it more of a "stop motion" kind of feel)
• In addition, while active, all enemies in the Rift suffer from 1 Cold proc. As soon as the ability is disabled, the Cold proc is removed
  • This counts as an extra Cold-proc (Meaning, with this ability on, enemies can technically have 10 Cold-procs on them, but still adhering to the slowdown cap at 9 procs)
  • Also note that the Cold-proc will work on Eximus units even when its Overguard is active (In case you didn't know, Overguard doesn't block Cold-procs). As soon as the Overguard is removed, they will also begin suffering from the frequent pauses.
  • This Cold-proc is not just a way to alleviate some of nerf of the pausing effect, it is also meant as a visual indicator to tell you wether the ability is active or not, due to the frosty effect of the proc being placed on the enemy(s).
• Ability duration is raised to match Cataclysm's duration (from 8/10/12/15 to 15/20/25/30 seconds), which basicly means its duration has been doubled!
• The ability is now handled seperately for each Limbo player in the squad; If one Limbo turns it off, it does NOT turn it off from other Limbo players.
• Augment idea - Quantum Entanglement: Each pause duration is increased to 0,75/1/1,25/1,5 seconds (with the same 0,5 second unpausing afterwards). Also, 5/10/15/20% of all damage dealt is now shared among all enemies in the Rift, with a 25/50/75/100% chance to transfer status procs too.

This makes the ability less of an extreme "I WIN" button versus anything you put in the Rift, but it also gives you a little bit of an aid versus Eximus units, and lasts twice as long to have the same duration as Cataclysm.

Rift Surge

This ability arguably gets the biggest rework of them all (basicly making Rift TORRENT (its current augment) into the main ability, with some additional effects).

• Costs 75 energy at base (moddable by Ability Efficiency), and places a buff on Limbo for 15/20/25/30 seconds, affected by Ability Duration. Can be recast at any time. This buff has multiple effects:
  • 1) Gain +40/60/80/100% weapon damage, +10/15/20/25% weapon damage for every alive enemy in the Rift (updates dynamically), both values moddable by Ability Strength. When leaving the Rift, the damage boost is retained for 2 seconds, then deteriorates over 5-ish seconds. Returning to the Rift instantly restores the damage boost to its proper value.
  • 2) While in the Rift, gain +10/15/20/25 shield regen, which can create overshields and is moddable by Ability Strength. While outside the Rift, the shield regen bonus stops, but resumes as soon as he returns to the Rift.
  • 3) Killing enemies causes them to burst in an electrical explosion. Deals 5/10/15/20% of the target's max shield and health as electric damage in a 3/4/5/6 meter radius (can damage both planes), with the radius moddable by Ability Range
• Augment - Rift Torrent -> Reworked into Rift Cemetery: Enemies killed in the Rift now turn into Rift Ghosts. Rift Ghosts are invulnerable, ally-intangible, attack and distract enemies and still contribute to Rift Surge's "damage bonus per enemy". Ghosts last for 6/7/8/9 seconds each, and are duration moddable.
  • Note that the Rift Ghosts can only hurt enemies who are in the Rift.

Cataclysm

• Enemies can no longer leave Cataclysm on their own while Stasis (or Quantum Fracture, as I suggested to rename it) is active - it behaves as if Cataclysm's borders are solid
• For every enemy killed inside the Cataclysm bubble, a small amount of its total shields+health is added to Cataclysm's collapse damage, giving it an Equinox Maim-ish nuke potential.
  • This is also modified by the radius/duration multiplier (so at max size, it deals 25% damage, and at minimum size it deals 100% damage
• Holdcasting Cataclysm while it is active will rapidly shrink its size and detonate it (giving you max power but minimum range for its explosion)
• Cataclysm is no longer dispelled by Nullifier bubbles, but the Nullifier bubble rather just keeps the Nullifier and any of its allies within its bubble protected from the Rift
• If material world interractables (like hacking consoles, life-support capsules, mobile defence terminals etc) are covered by Cataclysm, you can now interract with them from the Rift.
  • If the Cataclysm shrinks and no longer covers the interractable object, while you are in the middle of using it, you are also dynamically put into the material plane, WITHOUT interrupting the action.
• Augment - Cataclysmic Continuum: In addition to the duration extension on kill, the dome no longer shrinks in size over time at all.
  • This does NOT negatively impact its detonation multiplier (the multiplier is counted "behind the scenes")

Aaaaand that was my take on a Limbo Rework / Revisit. All in all, this means he would no longer be able to cheese enemies as hard with Stasis, but he has been compensated with a teamfriendly overhaul to the Rift and his kit, a bunch more tankiness and a lot more attack power in basicly all of his skills.

Overall, do you say Yay or Nay to this?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Azamagon

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

So, I'll just get straight to the point here:

Issues with Limbo:

• The Rift is highly intrusive for non-Limbo players, especially those with no strongly damaging powers (like Loki and Nyx)
• When he works well, he's just outright cheesily strong (due to Stasis, mainly)
• Limbo works quite poorly with other Limbo players in the squad, such as being able to cancel other players' Stasis, among other things.
• He deals poorly with certain mechanics in the game, mostly Bosses, but also Eximus units to some extents.
• Limbo has THREE abilities which all basicly just deal with putting targets into the Rift, which feels like a waste imo.
• Limbo's Banish is, generally speaking, a pretty terrible Subsume skill.

So, here are my proposals on how to try and alleviate these issues:

The Rift plane

• Now, when Limbo or player-controlled allies (but not NPCs) are inside the Rift, they can still interact with the material plane, but are temporarily displaced back into the material plane doing so - and vice versa. In more detail:
  • When in the Rift, moving around in any way (except rolling, as that toggles off the Rift entirely) and/or casting abilities = You stay in the Rift.
  • When in the Rift, shooting/meleeing enemies or breakable objects, hacking consoles, using Life support, picking up manually grabbed items, activating buttons/elevators etc - interacting with anything which is on the material plane = You briefly come back to the real world (for as long as the action takes), then return to the Rift a brief moment later.
    • This is also true while in a Cataclysm bubble, making you able to attack enemies outside of it - with the risk that comes with the exposure of course.
  • Conversely: When in the material plane, shooting/meleeing etc or interacting with objects which are in the Rift, you are briefly taken into the Rift.
    • Again, this is also true while outside a Cataclysm bubble, making you able to attack enemies inside of it - with the risk that comes with the exposure of course.
  • If there is a mixed crowd of enemies (some in the Rift, some not), priority goes to interacting with the Riftbound enemies.
  • Furthermore, if you are mid-action with something in the real plane - like hacking a console - and you get Banished, it will NOT interrupt the hacking- it will just wait to put you in the Rift until you are done hacking.
• Limbo and allies (including NPCs) in the Rift are more durable; Limbo gets 75% damage reduction, all other allies (players and allied NPCs) get a 50% damage reduction.
  • This damage reduction lingers for 2 seconds after leaving the Rift, then gradually diminishes over 5 seconds. Getting back into the Rift instantly restores the damage reduction to its maximum.
• Limbo and allies still get 2 energy per second while in the Rift.
• Enemies enterring the Rift still suffer 300 impact damage.
• Basic loot (ammo, orbs, credits, mods etc) can now be picked up even while in the Rift.
• Specific change (bugfix even?): Kuva Fortress turrets and mines no longer hurts Limbo or allies inside the Rift.
• Limbo is no longer forced out of the Rift when he leaves Cataclysm - his passive rift-dodge now works better as a "toggle" for where he will be when he exits Cataclysm. For more clarity, here are some examples:
  • If a Limbo player who has enterred the rift via the dodge-passive then enters and exits a Cataclysm bubble, the Limbo will NOT automatically be put back into the material world, but rather stay in the rift
  • The opposite is also true: If a Limbo player who has enterred the real world via the dodge-passive then enters and exits a Cataclysm bubble, the Limbo WILL automatically be put back into the material world
  • If a Limbo player who has enterred the Rift via the dodge-passive then enters a Cataclysm bubble, then dodges while in the bubble (technically putting them in the material world, but remains in the Rift due to Cataclysm's presence), then exits the Cataclysm bubble, Limbo WILL automatically be put back into the materialworld. And vice versa is also true.

Overall, these Rift changes alone would solve the arguably biggest issue with Limbo; the intrusion upon other players. It also quite directly enhances Banish as a subsume ability, as you can now for example Banish enemies and instantly attack them and briefly get into the Rift to deal with them yourself. It's not as powerful as it is on Limbo, generally speaking, but it is now a quick little "divide and conquer" skill you can more freely tinker with on other Warframes.
Furthermore, it also helps with the "Cataclysm edge-dancing", meaning it now always lets you attack enemies without having to move back and forth between the edge of Cataclysm.

Passive

• Limbo retains his "rift dodge" (i.e. dodging to go in or out of the Rift).
• Limbo retains his 10 energy gain when he kills an enemy who is in the Rift.
• As mentioned in the Rift section; Limbo has 75% damage reduction while in the Rift (in contrast to other allies, which only get 50% damage reduction).
• Limbo no longer leaves portals behind when doing his rift dodge.
  • Sure, it is no longer as intrusive to be put into the Rift, so these portals could stay - put they would also be entirely unnecessary now with the suggested Rift changes.

Banish

• Still casts a conical wave of Rifting energy. However, now it will put allies and enemies into the Rift, regardless of which plane Limbo is in.
  • Due to the changes I've suggested for Stasis, this change would not be as overpowered as it would be in the current form of Stasis.
  • It would be nice if the wave was visible, so you see the size of it.
• Holdcast still removes all allies and enemies affected by Banish, but only by YOUR Banish (not other Limbo's Banish targets).
  • If a target is affected by another Limbo's Banish, you can still also cast Banish on it as well. The seperate casts are simply handled completely seperately, so neither of you will block each other out.
• Banish's damage can now damage and break open breakable objects (just like Cataclysm can).
• Can now be cast on targets who are already in the Rift via Cataclysm (currently, they have to be Banished FIRST, before enterring a Cataclysm, for Banish's duration to apply on them)
• Banish on enemies:
  • They are dealt 150/300/450/600 Impact damage (up from 150/200/225/250), and are still knocked down
  • They now also suffer 20/30/40/50% more damage taken while Banished (affected by Ability Strength).
    • This further makes Banish a useful skill in his kit AND makes it further viable as a Helminth skill.
    • This vulnerability will indeed work on Eximus units as well.
• Banish on allies:
  •  Works basicly the same as now, but as noted in the Rift plane section: they can freely pop in/out of the Rift by just attacking enemies with non-Abilities or interacting with material plane objects (like hacking etc).
  • Putting Banish on an ally also Banishes their Companion now - However, the Companion will not be able pop in/out of the Rift on their own will; the Companion will be in the exact same plane their owner currently is in, regardless of the Companion's own actions.
    • Or should the Companions be able to pop in/out of the Rift? What do you think about this interaction?
  • Rolling still entirely dispels Banish from allies - However, since being Banished now has very little chance of being disruptive, maybe it could be changed to be a dispel on backflip instead (like with Volt's Speed)?
• Augment - Rift Haven: Now grants 2/3/4/5% health regeneration on allies and their companions when they are outside of the Rift (which can now happen when fighting with enemies in the material world, even while Banished), or 6/9/12/15% (down from 10/15/20/25%) health regeneration while in the Rift.
  • Limbo (or whoever the caster is, if it's a Helminth-user) and his companion will always also gets this healing bonus for the same duration, whenever casting Banish.
  • It can now also heal Eidolon Lures, and trigger Archon Intensify.

Stasis (Rename into Quantum Fracture?)

Due to the massive QoL and buffs to the Rift plane, Stasis is in for a nerf (with minor counterbuffs):

• While active, enemies in the Rift are paused for 0,5 seconds, every 1 second (giving it more of a "stop motion" kind of feel)
• In addition, while active, all enemies in the Rift suffer from 1 Cold proc. As soon as the ability is disabled, the Cold proc is removed
  • This counts as an extra Cold-proc (Meaning, with this ability on, enemies can technically have 9 Cold-procs on them, but still adhering to the slowdown cap at 8 procs)
  • Also note that the Cold-proc will work on Eximus units even when its Overguard is active (In case you didn't now, Overguard doesn't block Cold-procs). As soon as the Overguard is removed, they will also begin suffering from the frequent pauses.
  • This Cold-proc is not just a way to alleviate some of nerf of the pausing effect, it is also meant as a visual indicator to tell you wether the ability is active or not, due to the frosty effect of the proc being placed on the enemy(s).
• Ability duration is raised to match Cataclysm's duration (from 8/10/12/15 to 15/20/25/30 seconds), which basicly means its duration has been doubled!
• The ability is now handled seperately for each Limbo player in the squad; If one Limbo turns it off, it does NOT turn it off from other Limbo players.
• Augment idea - Quantum Entanglement: Each pause duration is increased to 0,75/1/1,25/1,5 seconds (with the same 0,5 second unpausing afterwards). Also, 5/10/15/20% of all damage dealt is now shared among all enemies in the Rift, with a 25/50/75/100% chance to transfer status procs too.

This makes the ability less of an extreme "I WIN" button versus anything you put in the Rift, but it also gives you a little bit of an aid versus Eximus units, and lasts twice as long to have the same duration as Cataclysm.

Rift Surge

This ability arguably gets the biggest rework of them all (basicly making Rift TORRENT (its current augment) into the main ability, with some additional effects).

• Costs 75 energy at base (moddable by Ability Efficiency), and places a buff on Limbo for 15/20/25/30 seconds, affected by Ability Duration. Can be recast at any time. This buff has multiple effects:
  • 1) Gain +40/60/80/100% weapon damage, +10/15/20/25% for every alive enemy in the Rift (updates dynamically), both values moddable by Ability Strength. When leaving the Rift, the damage boost is retained for 2 seconds, then deteriorates over 5-ish seconds. Returning to the Rift instantly restores the damage boost to its proper value.
  • 2) While in the Rift, gain +10/15/20/25 shield regen, which can create overshields and is moddable by Ability Strength. While outside the Rift, the shield regen bonus stops, but resumes as soon as he returns to the Rift.
  • 3) Killing enemies causes them to burst in an electrical explosion. Deals 5/10/15/20% if the target's max shield and health as electric damage in a 3/4/5/6 meter radius (can damage both planes), with the radius moddable by Ability Range
• Augment - Rift Torrent -> Reworked into Rift Cemetery: Enemies killed in the Rift now turn into Rift Ghosts. Rift Ghosts are invulnerable, ally-intangible, attack and distract enemies and still contribute to Rift Surge's "damage bonus per enemy". Ghosts last for 6/7/8/9 seconds each, and are duration moddable.
  • Note that the Rift Ghosts can only hurt enemies who are in the Rift.

Cataclysm

• Enemies can no longer leave Cataclysm on their own while Stasis (or Quantum Fracture, as I suggested to rename it) is active - it behaves as if Cataclysm's borders are solid
• For every enemy killed inside the Cataclysm bubble, a small amount of its total shields+health is added to Cataclysm's collapse damage, giving it an Equinox Maim-ish nuke potential.
  • This is also modified by the radius/duration multiplier (so at max size, it deals 25% damage, and at minimum size it deals 100% damage
• Holdcasting Cataclysm while it is active will rapidly shrink its size and detonate it (giving you max power but minimum range for its explosion)
• Cataclysm is no longer dispelled by Nullifier bubbles, but the Nullifier bubble rather just keeps the Nullifier and any of its allies within its bubble protected from the Rift
• If material world interractables (like hacking consoles, life-support capsules, mobile defence terminals etc) are covered by Cataclysm, you can now interract with them from the Rift.
  • If the Cataclysm shrinks and no longer covers the interractable object, while you are in the middle of using it, you are also dynamically put into the material plane, WITHOUT interrupting the action.
• Augment - Cataclysmic Continuum: In addition to the duration extension on kill, the dome no longer shrinks in size over time at all.
  • This does NOT negatively impact its detonation multiplier (the multiplier is counted "behind the scenes")

Aaaaand that was my take on a Limbo Rework / Revisit. All in all, this means he would no longer be able to cheese enemies as hard with Stasis, but he has been compensated with a teamfriendly overhaul to the Rift and his kit, a bunch more tankiness and a lot more attack power in basicly all of his skills.

Overall, do you say Yay or Nay to this?

YES!!! i want it now!

now do one for hydroid ^_^?

[Joezone619]

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

The Rift plane

• Now, when Limbo or player-controlled allies (but not NPCs) are inside the Rift, they can still interact with the material plane, but are temporarily displaced back into the material plane doing so - and vice versa. In more detail:
  • When in the Rift, moving around in any way (except rolling, as that toggles off the Rift entirely) and/or casting abilities = You stay in the Rift.
  • When in the Rift, shooting/meleeing enemies or breakable objects, hacking consoles, using Life support, picking up manually grabbed items, activating buttons/elevators etc - interacting with anything which is on the material plane = You briefly come back to the real world (for as long as the action takes), then return to the Rift a brief moment later.
    • This is also true while in a Cataclysm bubble, making you able to attack enemies outside of it - with the risk that comes with the exposure of course.
  • Conversely: When in the material plane, shooting/meleeing etc or interacting with objects which are in the Rift, you are briefly taken into the Rift.
    • Again, this is also true while outside a Cataclysm bubble, making you able to attack enemies inside of it - with the risk that comes with the exposure of course.
  • If there is a mixed crowd of enemies (some in the Rift, some not), priority goes to interacting with the Riftbound enemies.
  • Furthermore, if you are mid-action with something in the real plane - like hacking a console - and you get Banished, it will NOT interrupt the hacking- it will just wait to put you in the Rift until you are done hacking.
• Limbo and allies (including NPCs) in the Rift are more durable; Limbo gets 75% damage reduction, all other allies (players and allied NPCs) get a 50% damage reduction.
  • This damage reduction lingers for 2 seconds after leaving the Rift, then gradually diminishes over 5 seconds. Getting back into the Rift instantly restores the damage reduction to its maximum.
• Limbo and allies still get 2 energy per second while in the Rift.
• Enemies enterring the Rift still suffer 300 impact damage.
• Basic loot (ammo, orbs, credits, mods etc) can now be picked up even while in the Rift.
• Specific change (bugfix even?): Kuva Fortress turrets and mines no longer hurts Limbo or allies inside the Rift.
• Limbo is no longer forced out of the Rift when he leaves Cataclysm - his passive rift-dodge now works better as a "toggle" for where he will be when he exits Cataclysm. For more clarity, here are some examples:
  • If a Limbo player who has enterred the rift via the dodge-passive then enters and exits a Cataclysm bubble, the Limbo will NOT automatically be put back into the material world, but rather stay in the rift
  • The opposite is also true: If a Limbo player who has enterred the real world via the dodge-passive then enters and exits a Cataclysm bubble, the Limbo WILL automatically be put back into the material world
  • If a Limbo player who has enterred the Rift via the dodge-passive then enters a Cataclysm bubble, then dodges while in the bubble (technically putting them in the material world, but remains in the Rift due to Cataclysm's presence), then exits the Cataclysm bubble, Limbo WILL automatically be put back into the materialworld. And vice versa is also true.

Overall, these Rift changes alone would solve the arguably biggest issue with Limbo; the intrusion upon other players. It also quite directly enhances Banish as a subsume ability, as you can now for example Banish enemies and instantly attack them and briefly get into the Rift to deal with them yourself. It's not as powerful as it is on Limbo, generally speaking, but it is now a quick little "divide and conquer" skill you can more freely tinker with on other Warframes.
Furthermore, it also helps with the "Cataclysm edge-dancing", meaning it now always lets you attack enemies without having to move back and forth between the edge of Cataclysm.

A lot of info here, but skimming through it, it seems like it somewhat brings the rift and normal space into a grey area, being able to damage enemies in both, which kinda renders the rift itself redundant. I understand the theme your going for, similar to invisibility, interactions = back to normal space briefly, but unfortunatly warframe just has too many small interactions and nuances, it would take DE forever to program them all individually, and then after perpetually for any new ones in the future. The rift isn't supposed to be a type of invisibility mechanic, infact thats one of the things it can't do, is make you invisible (for some reason). Its an entire dimension, with limbo at the center, a domain for him and him alone to control.

Having said that, the majority of this i agree with. Damage reduction in rift, cross-plane item pickup, and especially the 'no exit cataclysm = unbanish' thing are all great ideas that i heavily agree with. If i could add to that, i'd make it so that cameras cannot see you while your in the rift, but enemies can.

My suggestion for ally player annoyance, just give them the ability to enter/exit the rift when close to limbo the same way limbo himself does, rolling. That or just render it N/A by other players, allowing them to damage enemies regardless of rift status.

 

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Passive

• Limbo retains his "rift dodge" (i.e. dodging to go in or out of the Rift).
• Limbo retains his 10 energy gain when he kills an enemy who is in the Rift.
• As mentioned in the Rift section; Limbo has 75% damage reduction while in the Rift (in contrast to other allies, which only get 50% damage reduction).
• Limbo no longer leaves portals behind when doing his rift dodge.
  • Sure, it is no longer as intrusive to be put into the Rift, so these portals could stay - put they would also be entirely unnecessary now with the suggested Rift changes.

100% agree with all of this. The small rift portals have only served as an annoyance for both limbo and his allies since its introduction. As i said before, the damage reduction in the rift is also something i agree with limbo does need some form of durability, especially in the rift. However i think 75% is too high, personally i would make it around 35-50% (15-25% for allies).

 

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Banish

• Still casts a conical wave of Rifting energy. However, now it will put allies and enemies into the Rift, regardless of which plane Limbo is in.
  • Due to the changes I've suggested for Stasis, this change would not be as overpowered as it would be in the current form of Stasis.
  • It would be nice if the wave was visible, so you see the size of it.
• Holdcast still removes all allies and enemies affected by Banish, but only by YOUR Banish (not other Limbo's Banish targets).
  • If a target is affected by another Limbo's Banish, you can still also cast Banish on it as well. The seperate casts are simply handled completely seperately, so neither of you will block each other out.
• Banish's damage can now damage and break open breakable objects (just like Cataclysm can).
• Can now be cast on targets who are already in the Rift via Cataclysm (currently, they have to be Banished FIRST, before enterring a Cataclysm, for Banish's duration to apply on them)
• Banish on enemies:
  • They are dealt 150/300/450/600 Impact damage (up from 150/200/225/250), and are still knocked down
  • They now also suffer 20/30/40/50% more damage taken while Banished (affected by Ability Strength).
    • This further makes Banish a useful skill in his kit AND makes it further viable as a Helminth skill.
    • This vulnerability will indeed work on Eximus units as well.
• Banish on allies:
  •  Works basicly the same as now, but as noted in the Rift plane section: they can freely pop in/out of the Rift by just attacking enemies with non-Abilities or interacting with material plane objects (like hacking etc).
  • Putting Banish on an ally also Banishes their Companion now - However, the Companion will not be able pop in/out of the Rift on their own will; the Companion will be in the exact same plane their owner currently is in, regardless of the Companion's own actions.
    • Or should the Companions be able to pop in/out of the Rift? What do you think about this interaction?
  • Rolling still entirely dispels Banish from allies - However, since being Banished now has very little chance of being disruptive, maybe it could be changed to be a dispel on backflip instead (like with Volt's Speed)?
• Augment - Rift Haven: Now grants 2/3/4/5% health regeneration on allies and their companions when they are outside of the Rift (which can now happen when fighting with enemies in the material world, even while Banished), or 6/9/12/15% (down from 10/15/20/25%) health regeneration while in the Rift.
  • Limbo (or whoever the caster is, if it's a Helminth-user) and his companion will always also gets this healing bonus for the same duration, whenever casting Banish.
  • It can now also heal Eidolon Lures, and trigger Archon Intensify.

Decent changes, but personally, i would just make it a 4-part ability. One of the issues you brought up at the start was too many of limbo abilities being solely focused on banishing enemies. If you made banish a 4-part ability, (1-banish 2-rift surge 3-cataclysm and 4-mass unbanish) then it would solve this issue while making way for new abilities for limbo to use to actually interact with the rift.

 

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Stasis (Rename into Quantum Fracture?)

Due to the massive QoL and buffs to the Rift plane, Stasis is in for a nerf (with minor counterbuffs):

• While active, enemies in the Rift are paused for 0,5 seconds, every 1 second (giving it more of a "stop motion" kind of feel)
• In addition, while active, all enemies in the Rift suffer from 1 Cold proc. As soon as the ability is disabled, the Cold proc is removed
  • This counts as an extra Cold-proc (Meaning, with this ability on, enemies can technically have 9 Cold-procs on them, but still adhering to the slowdown cap at 8 procs)
  • Also note that the Cold-proc will work on Eximus units even when its Overguard is active (In case you didn't now, Overguard doesn't block Cold-procs). As soon as the Overguard is removed, they will also begin suffering from the frequent pauses.
  • This Cold-proc is not just a way to alleviate some of nerf of the pausing effect, it is also meant as a visual indicator to tell you wether the ability is active or not, due to the frosty effect of the proc being placed on the enemy(s).
• Ability duration is raised to match Cataclysm's duration (from 8/10/12/15 to 15/20/25/30 seconds), which basicly means its duration has been doubled!
• The ability is now handled seperately for each Limbo player in the squad; If one Limbo turns it off, it does NOT turn it off from other Limbo players.
• Augment idea - Quantum Entanglement: Each pause duration is increased to 0,75/1/1,25/1,5 seconds (with the same 0,5 second unpausing afterwards). Also, 5/10/15/20% of all damage dealt is now shared among all enemies in the Rift, with a 25/50/75/100% chance to transfer status procs too.

This makes the ability less of an extreme "I WIN" button versus anything you put in the Rift, but it also gives you a little bit of an aid versus Eximus units, and lasts twice as long to have the same duration as Cataclysm.

With duration this small, your looking at a generous maximum estimate of 3-5s with max duration. As it is described, this would render Stasis (quantum fracture) useless, that cold damage would have to be absurdly strong for it to be useful IMO and even then, just buff cataclysm and bring back cataclysm spam. Don't get me wrong, it seems interesting, but with how long limbo's casting animations typically are, the ability would be over by the time you could move again.
 

My suggestion for stasis is to add range to it. Instead of freezing time for all enemies in the rift, change it so that the closer enemies in the rift are to limbo, the slower they get until they get too close and stop completely. I would also change the duration to a constant drain, as the awkward duration just serves as an annoyance, players just recast it immediately. Perhaps if limbo had problems with energy, the duration would have some effect, but limbo is not one those frames.

 

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Rift Surge

This ability arguably gets the biggest rework of them all (basicly making Rift TORRENT (its current augment) into the main ability, with some additional effects).

• Costs 75 energy at base (moddable by Ability Efficiency), and places a buff on Limbo for 15/20/25/30 seconds, affected by Ability Duration. Can be recast at any time. This buff has multiple effects:
  • 1) Gain +40/60/80/100% weapon damage, +10/15/20/25% for every alive enemy in the Rift (updates dynamically), both values moddable by Ability Strength. When leaving the Rift, the damage boost is retained for 2 seconds, then deteriorates over 5-ish seconds. Returning to the Rift instantly restores the damage boost to its proper value.
  • 2) While in the Rift, gain +10/15/20/25 shield regen, which can create overshields and is moddable by Ability Strength. While outside the Rift, the shield regen bonus stops, but resumes as soon as he returns to the Rift.
  • 3) Killing enemies causes them to burst in an electrical explosion. Deals 5/10/15/20% if the target's max shield and health as electric damage in a 3/4/5/6 meter radius (can damage both planes), with the radius moddable by Ability Range
• Augment - Rift Torrent -> Reworked into Rift Cemetery: Enemies killed in the Rift now turn into Rift Ghosts. Rift Ghosts are invulnerable, ally-intangible, attack and distract enemies and still contribute to Rift Surge's "damage bonus per enemy". Ghosts last for 6/7/8/9 seconds each, and are duration moddable.
  • Note that the Rift Ghosts can only hurt enemies who are in the Rift.

I like this, and with the augment, this might be enough to be limbo's new ultimate (big bubble is a pretty important but boring ultimate all things considered). Rift torrent is basically all limbo has going for him anymore post-eximus rework. Building it into the ability and freeing up the slot would be a much welcomed change.

 

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Cataclysm

• Enemies can no longer leave Cataclysm on their own while Stasis (or Quantum Fracture, as I suggested to rename it) is active - it behaves as if Cataclysm's borders are solid
• For every enemy killed inside the Cataclysm bubble, a small amount of its total shields+health is added to Cataclysm's collapse damage, giving it an Equinox Maim-ish nuke potential.
  • This is also modified by the radius/duration multiplier (so at max size, it deals 25% damage, and at minimum size it deals 100% damage
• Holdcasting Cataclysm while it is active will rapidly shrink its size and detonate it (giving you max power but minimum range for its explosion)
• Cataclysm is no longer dispelled by Nullifier bubbles, but the Nullifier bubble rather just keeps the Nullifier and any of its allies within its bubble protected from the Rift
• If material world interractables (like hacking consoles, life-support capsules, mobile defence terminals etc) are covered by Cataclysm, you can now interract with them from the Rift.
  • If the Cataclysm shrinks and no longer covers the interractable object, while you are in the middle of using it, you are also dynamically put into the material plane, WITHOUT interrupting the action.
• Augment - Cataclysmic Continuum: In addition to the duration extension on kill, the dome no longer shrinks in size over time at all.
  • This does NOT negatively impact its detonation multiplier (the multiplier is counted "behind the scenes")

Honestly, i think the "enemies can no longer leave" thing should be innate, regardless of quantum fracture. Most of these changes however seem like your just making it equinox's 4th, at which point, just go play equinox.

Personally, i think limbo needs a completely new ultimate, as i said before i think "banish" should be a 4-parter, with the current cataclysm included in that. I'm not entirely sure what limbo's new ultimate would be, but certainly something to affect and interact with the rift itself.

 

You have some good ideas, but with them bring a few issues too. I agree with most of this, but some of this are things limbo used to be able to do and DE removed for a reason, namely banishing enemies into the rift, while inside it. You brought up great issues at the start that need to be solved but some of this just doesn't solve them. Overall, 6-7/10, a lot of this is genuinely helpful, but some suggestions would be rediculously hard to program such as interactions = brief unbanish, rift surge only affecting enemies you banished. The rift coding-wise, is shared between all entities, player, npc, limbo, or not. If 1 limbo has stasis on, it will affect all of them because its extremely difficult to program 4 separate rift dimensions and coding to check for interactions between all of them.

I made a rework with my own ideas for limbo almost a month ago, if you want to check that out, here is the link.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Joezone619

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

19 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

With duration this small, your looking generous maximum estimate of 3-5s with max duration. As it is described, this would render Stasis (quantum fracture) useless, that cold damage would have to be absurdly strong for it to be useful IMO and even then, just buff cataclysm and bring back cataclysm spam. Don't get me wrong, it seems interesting, but with how long limbo's casting animations typically are, the ability would be over by the time you could move again.

I think you're reading this the wrong way. Stasis turns on as normal, except the duration is 30s at base. The enemies are paused for 0.5 seconds every 1 second, leaving 0.5 seconds where they aren't paused. Since the duration is buffed up to 30 seconds, that's 15 seconds of enemies being paused, and 15 seconds of enemies moving, a 50/50 split.  With the augment, the ratio becomes 1.5 to 0.5, so enemies are paused for 75% of Stasis' duration, and unpaused for the remaining 25%.

There's also no cold damage. Just a cold proc as a visual indicator and minor slow between pauses. The damaging portion comes from the augment, which is 20% of damage and 100% of status procs being shared across all rift bound enemies. That is absurdly strong.

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Aaaaand that was my take on a Limbo Rework / Revisit. All in all, this means he would no longer be able to cheese enemies as hard with Stasis, but he has been compensated with a teamfriendly overhaul to the Rift and his kit, a bunch more tankiness and a lot more attack power in basicly all of his skills.

Overall, do you say Yay or Nay to this?

I say Yay. I like the idea of Limbo being a powerhouse with some set up, and I like the synergy in this kit. With this rework, I would actually be happy to see a Limbo on my team, and I might be that Limbo more often than now. There might be some number tweaks needed, but the concept is pretty good. 

[Joezone619]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I think you're reading this the wrong way. Stasis turns on as normal, except the duration is 30s at base. The enemies are paused for 0.5 seconds every 1 second, leaving 0.5 seconds where they aren't paused. Since the duration is buffed up to 30 seconds, that's 15 seconds of enemies being paused, and 15 seconds of enemies moving, a 50/50 split.  With the augment, the ratio becomes 1.5 to 0.5, so enemies are paused for 75% of Stasis' duration, and unpaused for the remaining 25%.

At that rate, isn't the ability basically the same only with slowness added for 15 more seconds? Why even change it at all, players would just recast it.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

57 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

At that rate, isn't the ability basically the same only with slowness added for 15 more seconds? Why even change it at all, players would just recast it.

15 total seconds for each effect over the full 30 second duration, not 15 consecutive seconds of Stasis followed by 15 consecutive seconds of slowness. The enemies are constantly shifting between being paused and unpaused every 0.5 seconds, causing them to move in small bursts. That's why the OP compares it to stop motion animation. It's like if Red Light, Green Light was an ability.

Edited April 17, 2023 by (XBOX)Ampathetiic

[PsiWarp]

Much as I enjoy the thematic of being trapped in limbo and Za Warudo, your revamp of Stasis makes it interactive and less of a shutdown AI target practice, which is good and healthy for the game IMO.

No qualms about your ideas, they sound like fun. Keep him as mass crowd control with damage potential and supportive features. Bridge the split between planes and reactively let the team in on the dimensional shenanigans. Top hat tip to you sir.

[Azamagon]

23 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

YES!!! i want it now!

now do one for hydroid ^_^?

Eyyy, glad you like it so much!

And yes, I'll make one for Hydroid too! ^_^

19 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

1) A lot of info here, but skimming through it, it seems like it somewhat brings the rift and normal space into a grey area, being able to damage enemies in both, which kinda renders the rift itself redundant. I understand the theme your going for, similar to invisibility, interactions = back to normal space briefly, but unfortunatly warframe just has too many small interactions and nuances, it would take DE forever to program them all individually, and then after perpetually for any new ones in the future. The rift isn't supposed to be a type of invisibility mechanic, infact thats one of the things it can't do, is make you invisible (for some reason). Its an entire dimension, with limbo at the center, a domain for him and him alone to control.

2) Having said that, the majority of this i agree with. Damage reduction in rift, cross-plane item pickup, and especially the 'no exit cataclysm = unbanish' thing are all great ideas that i heavily agree with. If i could add to that, i'd make it so that cameras cannot see you while your in the rift, but enemies can.

) My suggestion for ally player annoyance, just give them the ability to enter/exit the rift when close to limbo the same way limbo himself does, rolling. That or just render it N/A by other players, allowing them to damage enemies regardless of rift status.

4) 100% agree with all of this. The small rift portals have only served as an annoyance for both limbo and his allies since its introduction. As i said before, the damage reduction in the rift is also something i agree with limbo does need some form of durability, especially in the rift. However i think 75% is too high, personally i would make it around 35-50% (15-25% for allies).

5) Decent changes, but personally, i would just make it a 4-part ability. One of the issues you brought up at the start was too many of limbo abilities being solely focused on banishing enemies. If you made banish a 4-part ability, (1-banish 2-rift surge 3-cataclysm and 4-mass unbanish) then it would solve this issue while making way for new abilities for limbo to use to actually interact with the rift.

6) With duration this small, your looking at a generous maximum estimate of 3-5s with max duration. As it is described, this would render Stasis (quantum fracture) useless, that cold damage would have to be absurdly strong for it to be useful IMO and even then, just buff cataclysm and bring back cataclysm spam. Don't get me wrong, it seems interesting, but with how long limbo's casting animations typically are, the ability would be over by the time you could move again.

7) My suggestion for stasis is to add range to it. Instead of freezing time for all enemies in the rift, change it so that the closer enemies in the rift are to limbo, the slower they get until they get too close and stop completely. I would also change the duration to a constant drain, as the awkward duration just serves as an annoyance, players just recast it immediately. Perhaps if limbo had problems with energy, the duration would have some effect, but limbo is not one those frames.

8) I like this, and with the augment, this might be enough to be limbo's new ultimate (big bubble is a pretty important but boring ultimate all things considered). Rift torrent is basically all limbo has going for him anymore post-eximus rework. Building it into the ability and freeing up the slot would be a much welcomed change.

9) Honestly, i think the "enemies can no longer leave" thing should be innate, regardless of quantum fracture.

10) Most of these changes however seem like your just making it equinox's 4th, at which point, just go play equinox.

11) Personally, i think limbo needs a completely new ultimate, as i said before i think "banish" should be a 4-parter, with the current cataclysm included in that. I'm not entirely sure what limbo's new ultimate would be, but certainly something to affect and interact with the rift itself.

12) You have some good ideas, but with them bring a few issues too. I agree with most of this, but some of this are things limbo used to be able to do and DE removed for a reason, namely banishing enemies into the rift, while inside it.

13) You brought up great issues at the start that need to be solved but some of this just doesn't solve them.

14) Overall, 6-7/10, a lot of this is genuinely helpful, but some suggestions would be rediculously hard to program such as interactions = brief unbanish, rift surge only affecting enemies you banished. The rift coding-wise, is shared between all entities, player, npc, limbo, or not. If 1 limbo has stasis on, it will affect all of them because its extremely difficult to program 4 separate rift dimensions and coding to check for interactions between all of them.

15) I made a rework with my own ideas for limbo almost a month ago, if you want to check that out, here is the link.

1) I dunno if it merges them together - You are still untouchable to real-plane enemies when you are in the Rift (and vice versa), so long as you don't attack them.

And to be totally honest, I really don't care if it requires DE to do a lot of programming for the Rift to work as I've suggested; Limbo and the Rift NEEDS to become userfriendly already.

Why are you talking about invisibility though? I never mentioned it to be about that, you're just fighting your own rambling lol!

2) Thank you. I don't think he needs to be invisible to cameras though. However, I think he (and allies) could have lesser detectability range while in the Rift (like when equipping the Rakta Dark Dagger).

3) I disagreed with "just" giving the manual exit/enter button though, that's simply too slow and specific. Remember, a Limbo player can play with newbies, and newbies REALLY don't need to be overwhelmed with more info than they already are. And simply allowing allies to completely ignore the Rift also doesn't feel right - it needs to be consistent.

4) Yeah the portals are quite obnoxious indeed.

As for the damage reduction; 15-35% is basicly NOTHING in Warframe lol. 50% is already very weak, and 75% is, imo, still bordering on a bit on the weak side - especially now with the proposed Stasis changes no longer being a continuous enemy stun. So he NEEDS at least 75% DR.

5) YUCK - 100% disagreed with making it a cycle-ability. I despise the cycle abilities in Warframe, as they are so ridiculously clunky and slow. If cycle abilities were "tap ability to open up a submenu, then choose from other abilities with ability button 1 to 4", so it's quick and easy, I wouldn't mind cycle abilities so much - but even so, Limbo doesn't need that. Just... please no.

6) As @(XBOX)Ampathetiic already explained, you get 15 seconds of enemy pause duration, just dispersed over a 30 second time period. To clarify it as much as I can:

Stasis (or rather, Quantum Fracture as its new name) lasts for 30 seconds at max rank. For the entirety of those 30 seconds, all enemies in the Rift have 1 Cold-proc on them. Furthermore, for the entire 30 seconds, they are paused for 0,5 seconds, then unpaused for 0,5, then again paused for 0,5 seconds, then again unpaused for 0,5 seconds (and so on and so forth). In total, that means 15 seconds of paused enemies throughout the course of the 30 seconds ability.

The reason for this change is multifold:

• It makes Limbo less extremely powerful, CC-wise, when fighting in the Rift. With less extreme CC, you can distribute power more evenly throughout the kit. The new powers I gave him are:
  • Rift has damage reduction (since enemies will now fight you back)
  • Banish has a damage amp on it, and can now drag in enemies to the Rift even while you are in the Rift yourself.
  • Rift Surge is revamped into a weapon damage booster
  • Cataclysm regained a little bit of its old nuking power (albeit far less than its brokenly good old power)
  • Stasis itself now lasts 2x as long and has the "perma"-Cold-proc
  • The general QoL of jumping between the Rift/real plane now being much quicker, smoother and easier.
    • And all the power I've given here is FAIR - that is how brokenly strong current Stasis is!
• While my suggested Stasis might be a tiny bit on the weak side, it has some upsides over simply subsuming in a different CC-skill in place of it:
  • Stasis lasts a long time overall
  • It has continuous and retroactive CC-potential
  • It synergizes with Cataclysm to hold enemies inside of it
  • The suggested augment is very powerful, both defensively and offensively

7) Giving Stasis some range-based benefit is not a bad idea. I was thinking about how to make it scale with all ability stats (like I did for the other 3 skills), but I don't think it is completely necessary.
That said, I do kinda like your idea of making it more slowing the closer it is to Limbo. That's an alternative I could live with - but without the ability drain, please (it cancels out his Rift energy gain, making it dissynergetic with his own kit and general gameplay loop).

8) Glad you like it!
I think Cataclysm fits fine as his ultimate (especially with the added nuke-potential), as it is a particularly big and flashy ability. Rift Surge is "just" a quite basic damage amp and survivability booster - not all that fitting for a slot 4 ability (in contrast to a more flashy booster like Gauss' Redline).

9) As mentioned on Stasis explanation; This synergy / restriction is entirely intentional, as otherwise you'd be more enticed to just subsume in a new skill instead of Stasis.

10) Eh? Not at all. If you didn't know, Limbo actually had this kind of nuking power on launch - but without the need to kill anything first, it just scaled with all the enemies inside the bubble. It was absolutely bonkers good before - this is just bringing some of that power back (albeit HEAVILY reigned in). Sure, it builds similar to Equinox, yes, but that's because it's a good reward-mechanism, and gives potential cohesiveness with his damageboosting of Banish + Rift Surge: Bring enemies into the Rift with Cataclysm, keep them inside with Quantum Fracture, make it easier to kill a bunch of them with Banish + Rift Surge, then nuke the remainder with a Cataclysm collapse.

But they play differently with it; Equinox is a lot more flexible, as she runs around with the "damagestore bubble" so to speak, while Limbo has to decide where he wants to do the nuke ahead of time. Even if the nuking storage is similar, how they execute their nukes would still play out very differently.

11) Hard disagreed. Plain and simple, sorry.

12) As explained above, due to Stasis no longer being a pure hard CC, this is no longer an issue to bring back (he used to be able do this with Banish 1.0 actually, just with 1 target at a time. It was cool, but far too slow and ineffective, and he didn't have Stasis back then either).

13) What does it not solve?

14) I'm not sure it would be that hard to program, to be honest:

• Interactions = brief unbanish - Use Ivara's Prowl code. She briefly gets out of invisibility when doing unsilenced attacks.
• Rift surge only affecting enemies you banished - I actually didn't suggest that though? If you re-read it, I said that the damage bonus lingers for a brief while when exitting the Rift (precisely so he can surprise/blitz-attack enemies in the real world with a quick "peek-a-boo" from the Rift, making him feel like a scary "Rift Assassin"), but it diminishes over time in the real plane, but instantly gets restored to max bonus when you re-enter the Rift.
• Stasis (or Quantum Fracture) with multiple Limbos - This is not hard to change, just make it NOT disable Quantum Fracture for other Limbos. Meaning, if 2 Limbos have Quantum Fracture active, and one of them turns it off, the other Limbo's Quantum Fracture is simply NOT turned off.
  • However, VERY good point about the Rift being shared among all entities etc - This actually means that my proposed augment for Quantum Fracture wouldn't work. I'll definitely rework that one, at least. Thanks for that clarity!

15) I'll check it out later, it's getting towards bed time now.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Azamagon

[Azamagon]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

1) I think you're reading this the wrong way. Stasis turns on as normal, except the duration is 30s at base. The enemies are paused for 0.5 seconds every 1 second, leaving 0.5 seconds where they aren't paused. Since the duration is buffed up to 30 seconds, that's 15 seconds of enemies being paused, and 15 seconds of enemies moving, a 50/50 split.  With the augment, the ratio becomes 1.5 to 0.5, so enemies are paused for 75% of Stasis' duration, and unpaused for the remaining 25%.

There's also no cold damage. Just a cold proc as a visual indicator and minor slow between pauses. The damaging portion comes from the augment, which is 20% of damage and 100% of status procs being shared across all rift bound enemies. That is absurdly strong.

2) I say Yay. I like the idea of Limbo being a powerhouse with some set up, and I like the synergy in this kit. With this rework, I would actually be happy to see a Limbo on my team, and I might be that Limbo more often than now. There might be some number tweaks needed, but the concept is pretty good. 

1) Thanks for aiding with the explanations! ^_^

2) Awesome! That makes me very happy to hear! :)

6 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Much as I enjoy the thematic of being trapped in limbo and Za Warudo, your revamp of Stasis makes it interactive and less of a shutdown AI target practice, which is good and healthy for the game IMO.

No qualms about your ideas, they sound like fun. Keep him as mass crowd control with damage potential and supportive features. Bridge the split between planes and reactively let the team in on the dimensional shenanigans. Top hat tip to you sir.

Bingo! - Current Stasis holds too much power in his kit (see my point #6 in my reply to Joezone619). And DE has been a bit on a "crusade" against the old over-the-top CC (mainly more indirectly now via the Eximus rework, sure), precisely because, as you phrased it, it just makes enemies into target practice dummies. There's just not a lot of gameplay to be had there.

And by the way, I saw your recent Limbo thread (the ARiftmetics thread one, with the Riftward buff/aura thing) and actually "stole" one of your ideas from there (the Cataclysm holdcast to shrink+nuke), hehe. Overall, our reworks have similar vibes in trying to alleviate squad-intrusion and such, and I thought you had a very creative way of solving the issues. I would be happy to play the Limbo from your version too!

So, top hat tip back at you too, sir! (Or mam?)

Edited April 17, 2023 by Azamagon

[--Leyenda-yight6]

I really liked your reworking of limbo, it is not intrusive to others, it gives more survivability to one of the most fragile warframes and the way of interacting with the rift and the enemies makes it more dynamic instead of turning them into targets fixed.

[Legeno]

Well, it's kinda late for me and my lazy ass don't want to make a full review, but from what I read I must say this is one of the best rework idea I have seen in a long time. I agree with every single issues you identified, and overall I like the ideas you came up with, and I would definitly love to try this Limbo.

The Stasis change sounds good and would actually balance the ability and make it more interactive. 

Also like the idea that you can attack things no matter from what dimension you are in, but at the cost of being casted in or out of the Rift temporarily, nice idea to make Limbo less disruptive.

Of course there would be balance with the durations of the effects, the damages etc ... But the very concept of what I just read is really cool. The main issue would actually be to see if it is possible in the actual state of the game, I highly doubt that the Rift as it is coded right now would allow this rework to exist, Limbo's rework would probably mean a deep rework of the Rift as well.

[Azamagon]

On 4/18/2023 at 5:12 AM, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

I really liked your reworking of limbo, it is not intrusive to others, it gives more survivability to one of the most fragile warframes and the way of interacting with the rift and the enemies makes it more dynamic instead of turning them into targets fixed.

Thank you! Really glad you liked it! :)

17 hours ago, Legeno said:

1) Well, it's kinda late for me and my lazy ass don't want to make a full review,

2) but from what I read I must say this is one of the best rework idea I have seen in a long time. I agree with every single issues you identified, and overall I like the ideas you came up with, and I would definitly love to try this Limbo.

3) The Stasis change sounds good and would actually balance the ability and make it more interactive. 

4) Also like the idea that you can attack things no matter from what dimension you are in, but at the cost of being casted in or out of the Rift temporarily, nice idea to make Limbo less disruptive.

5) Of course there would be balance with the durations of the effects, the damages etc ... But the very concept of what I just read is really cool.

6) The main issue would actually be to see if it is possible in the actual state of the game, I highly doubt that the Rift as it is coded right now would allow this rework to exist, Limbo's rework would probably mean a deep rework of the Rift as well.

1) Definitely not too late lol. And I don't mind a quicker review either :)

2) Wow, very kind words! ^_^

3) Yeah, I just need to change up the suggested augment a little, as Joezone619 pointed out.

4) Yup. While it's not really an original idea, it really does solve his team-disruptive issues.

5) Sure, the numbers could definitely be changed (those are more there for a "feel" of how potent it's supposed to "feel", more or less) - but yes, it's the concept I was hoping to get judged on :)

6) If the Rift is difficult to recode, and in turn means we have to wait quite a while to get a rework similar to this - then I'm very willing to wait!

[KovakAizek]

Mate, really cool ideas and solid arguments. Love more interaction with Limbo, abilities that are not just “push things in rift” and “halt the game”, and really looking forward to see something like this(or anything, really) implemented!

[NuclearCoffeePot]

On 2023-04-16 at 5:41 PM, Azamagon said:

So, I'll just get straight to the point here:

Issues with Limbo:

• The Rift is highly intrusive for non-Limbo players, especially those with no strongly damaging powers (like Loki and Nyx)
• When he works well, he's just outright cheesily strong (due to Stasis, mainly)
• Limbo works quite poorly with other Limbo players in the squad, such as being able to cancel other players' Stasis, among other things.
• He deals poorly with certain mechanics in the game, mostly Bosses, but also Eximus units to some extents.
• Limbo has THREE abilities which all basicly just deal with putting targets into the Rift, which feels like a waste imo.
• Limbo's Banish is, generally speaking, a pretty terrible Subsume skill.

So, here are my proposals on how to try and alleviate these issues:

The Rift plane

• Now, when Limbo or player-controlled allies (but not NPCs) are inside the Rift, they can still interact with the material plane, but are temporarily displaced back into the material plane doing so - and vice versa. In more detail:
  • When in the Rift, moving around in any way (except rolling, as that toggles off the Rift entirely) and/or casting abilities = You stay in the Rift.
  • When in the Rift, shooting/meleeing enemies or breakable objects, hacking consoles, using Life support, picking up manually grabbed items, activating buttons/elevators etc - interacting with anything which is on the material plane = You briefly come back to the real world (for as long as the action takes), then return to the Rift a brief moment later.
    • This is also true while in a Cataclysm bubble, making you able to attack enemies outside of it - with the risk that comes with the exposure of course.
  • Conversely: When in the material plane, shooting/meleeing etc or interacting with objects which are in the Rift, you are briefly taken into the Rift.
    • Again, this is also true while outside a Cataclysm bubble, making you able to attack enemies inside of it - with the risk that comes with the exposure of course.
  • If there is a mixed crowd of enemies (some in the Rift, some not), priority goes to interacting with the Riftbound enemies.
  • Furthermore, if you are mid-action with something in the real plane - like hacking a console - and you get Banished, it will NOT interrupt the hacking- it will just wait to put you in the Rift until you are done hacking.
• Limbo and allies (including NPCs) in the Rift are more durable; Limbo gets 75% damage reduction, all other allies (players and allied NPCs) get a 50% damage reduction.
  • This damage reduction lingers for 2 seconds after leaving the Rift, then gradually diminishes over 5 seconds. Getting back into the Rift instantly restores the damage reduction to its maximum.
• Limbo and allies still get 2 energy per second while in the Rift.
• Enemies enterring the Rift still suffer 300 impact damage.
• Basic loot (ammo, orbs, credits, mods etc) can now be picked up even while in the Rift.
• Specific change (bugfix even?): Kuva Fortress turrets and mines no longer hurts Limbo or allies inside the Rift.
• Limbo is no longer forced out of the Rift when he leaves Cataclysm - his passive rift-dodge now works better as a "toggle" for where he will be when he exits Cataclysm. For more clarity, here are some examples:
  • If a Limbo player who has enterred the rift via the dodge-passive then enters and exits a Cataclysm bubble, the Limbo will NOT automatically be put back into the material world, but rather stay in the rift
  • The opposite is also true: If a Limbo player who has enterred the real world via the dodge-passive then enters and exits a Cataclysm bubble, the Limbo WILL automatically be put back into the material world
  • If a Limbo player who has enterred the Rift via the dodge-passive then enters a Cataclysm bubble, then dodges while in the bubble (technically putting them in the material world, but remains in the Rift due to Cataclysm's presence), then exits the Cataclysm bubble, Limbo WILL automatically be put back into the materialworld. And vice versa is also true.

Overall, these Rift changes alone would solve the arguably biggest issue with Limbo; the intrusion upon other players. It also quite directly enhances Banish as a subsume ability, as you can now for example Banish enemies and instantly attack them and briefly get into the Rift to deal with them yourself. It's not as powerful as it is on Limbo, generally speaking, but it is now a quick little "divide and conquer" skill you can more freely tinker with on other Warframes.
Furthermore, it also helps with the "Cataclysm edge-dancing", meaning it now always lets you attack enemies without having to move back and forth between the edge of Cataclysm.

Passive

• Limbo retains his "rift dodge" (i.e. dodging to go in or out of the Rift).
• Limbo retains his 10 energy gain when he kills an enemy who is in the Rift.
• As mentioned in the Rift section; Limbo has 75% damage reduction while in the Rift (in contrast to other allies, which only get 50% damage reduction).
• Limbo no longer leaves portals behind when doing his rift dodge.
  • Sure, it is no longer as intrusive to be put into the Rift, so these portals could stay - put they would also be entirely unnecessary now with the suggested Rift changes.

Banish

• Still casts a conical wave of Rifting energy. However, now it will put allies and enemies into the Rift, regardless of which plane Limbo is in.
  • Due to the changes I've suggested for Stasis, this change would not be as overpowered as it would be in the current form of Stasis.
  • It would be nice if the wave was visible, so you see the size of it.
• Holdcast still removes all allies and enemies affected by Banish, but only by YOUR Banish (not other Limbo's Banish targets).
  • If a target is affected by another Limbo's Banish, you can still also cast Banish on it as well. The seperate casts are simply handled completely seperately, so neither of you will block each other out.
• Banish's damage can now damage and break open breakable objects (just like Cataclysm can).
• Can now be cast on targets who are already in the Rift via Cataclysm (currently, they have to be Banished FIRST, before enterring a Cataclysm, for Banish's duration to apply on them)
• Banish on enemies:
  • They are dealt 150/300/450/600 Impact damage (up from 150/200/225/250), and are still knocked down
  • They now also suffer 20/30/40/50% more damage taken while Banished (affected by Ability Strength).
    • This further makes Banish a useful skill in his kit AND makes it further viable as a Helminth skill.
    • This vulnerability will indeed work on Eximus units as well.
• Banish on allies:
  •  Works basicly the same as now, but as noted in the Rift plane section: they can freely pop in/out of the Rift by just attacking enemies with non-Abilities or interacting with material plane objects (like hacking etc).
  • Putting Banish on an ally also Banishes their Companion now - However, the Companion will not be able pop in/out of the Rift on their own will; the Companion will be in the exact same plane their owner currently is in, regardless of the Companion's own actions.
    • Or should the Companions be able to pop in/out of the Rift? What do you think about this interaction?
  • Rolling still entirely dispels Banish from allies - However, since being Banished now has very little chance of being disruptive, maybe it could be changed to be a dispel on backflip instead (like with Volt's Speed)?
• Augment - Rift Haven: Now grants 2/3/4/5% health regeneration on allies and their companions when they are outside of the Rift (which can now happen when fighting with enemies in the material world, even while Banished), or 6/9/12/15% (down from 10/15/20/25%) health regeneration while in the Rift.
  • Limbo (or whoever the caster is, if it's a Helminth-user) and his companion will always also gets this healing bonus for the same duration, whenever casting Banish.
  • It can now also heal Eidolon Lures, and trigger Archon Intensify.

Stasis (Rename into Quantum Fracture?)

Due to the massive QoL and buffs to the Rift plane, Stasis is in for a nerf (with minor counterbuffs):

• While active, enemies in the Rift are paused for 0,5 seconds, every 1 second (giving it more of a "stop motion" kind of feel)
• In addition, while active, all enemies in the Rift suffer from 1 Cold proc. As soon as the ability is disabled, the Cold proc is removed
  • This counts as an extra Cold-proc (Meaning, with this ability on, enemies can technically have 9 Cold-procs on them, but still adhering to the slowdown cap at 8 procs)
  • Also note that the Cold-proc will work on Eximus units even when its Overguard is active (In case you didn't now, Overguard doesn't block Cold-procs). As soon as the Overguard is removed, they will also begin suffering from the frequent pauses.
  • This Cold-proc is not just a way to alleviate some of nerf of the pausing effect, it is also meant as a visual indicator to tell you wether the ability is active or not, due to the frosty effect of the proc being placed on the enemy(s).
• Ability duration is raised to match Cataclysm's duration (from 8/10/12/15 to 15/20/25/30 seconds), which basicly means its duration has been doubled!
• The ability is now handled seperately for each Limbo player in the squad; If one Limbo turns it off, it does NOT turn it off from other Limbo players.
• Augment idea - Quantum Entanglement: Each pause duration is increased to 0,75/1/1,25/1,5 seconds (with the same 0,5 second unpausing afterwards). Also, 5/10/15/20% of all damage dealt is now shared among all enemies in the Rift, with a 25/50/75/100% chance to transfer status procs too.

This makes the ability less of an extreme "I WIN" button versus anything you put in the Rift, but it also gives you a little bit of an aid versus Eximus units, and lasts twice as long to have the same duration as Cataclysm.

Rift Surge

This ability arguably gets the biggest rework of them all (basicly making Rift TORRENT (its current augment) into the main ability, with some additional effects).

• Costs 75 energy at base (moddable by Ability Efficiency), and places a buff on Limbo for 15/20/25/30 seconds, affected by Ability Duration. Can be recast at any time. This buff has multiple effects:
  • 1) Gain +40/60/80/100% weapon damage, +10/15/20/25% for every alive enemy in the Rift (updates dynamically), both values moddable by Ability Strength. When leaving the Rift, the damage boost is retained for 2 seconds, then deteriorates over 5-ish seconds. Returning to the Rift instantly restores the damage boost to its proper value.
  • 2) While in the Rift, gain +10/15/20/25 shield regen, which can create overshields and is moddable by Ability Strength. While outside the Rift, the shield regen bonus stops, but resumes as soon as he returns to the Rift.
  • 3) Killing enemies causes them to burst in an electrical explosion. Deals 5/10/15/20% if the target's max shield and health as electric damage in a 3/4/5/6 meter radius (can damage both planes), with the radius moddable by Ability Range
• Augment - Rift Torrent -> Reworked into Rift Cemetery: Enemies killed in the Rift now turn into Rift Ghosts. Rift Ghosts are invulnerable, ally-intangible, attack and distract enemies and still contribute to Rift Surge's "damage bonus per enemy". Ghosts last for 6/7/8/9 seconds each, and are duration moddable.
  • Note that the Rift Ghosts can only hurt enemies who are in the Rift.

Cataclysm

• Enemies can no longer leave Cataclysm on their own while Stasis (or Quantum Fracture, as I suggested to rename it) is active - it behaves as if Cataclysm's borders are solid
• For every enemy killed inside the Cataclysm bubble, a small amount of its total shields+health is added to Cataclysm's collapse damage, giving it an Equinox Maim-ish nuke potential.
  • This is also modified by the radius/duration multiplier (so at max size, it deals 25% damage, and at minimum size it deals 100% damage
• Holdcasting Cataclysm while it is active will rapidly shrink its size and detonate it (giving you max power but minimum range for its explosion)
• Cataclysm is no longer dispelled by Nullifier bubbles, but the Nullifier bubble rather just keeps the Nullifier and any of its allies within its bubble protected from the Rift
• If material world interractables (like hacking consoles, life-support capsules, mobile defence terminals etc) are covered by Cataclysm, you can now interract with them from the Rift.
  • If the Cataclysm shrinks and no longer covers the interractable object, while you are in the middle of using it, you are also dynamically put into the material plane, WITHOUT interrupting the action.
• Augment - Cataclysmic Continuum: In addition to the duration extension on kill, the dome no longer shrinks in size over time at all.
  • This does NOT negatively impact its detonation multiplier (the multiplier is counted "behind the scenes")

Aaaaand that was my take on a Limbo Rework / Revisit. All in all, this means he would no longer be able to cheese enemies as hard with Stasis, but he has been compensated with a teamfriendly overhaul to the Rift and his kit, a bunch more tankiness and a lot more attack power in basicly all of his skills.

Overall, do you say Yay or Nay to this?

Personally I would just like to make rift surge a buff, that consumes extra energy to let you interact outside of the rift-

Sample Description- Limbo channels his energy into specific items and objects he interacts with, allowing him to alter their rift state- While active, Limbo's weapons will be able to damage enemies outside the rift, at a cost of energy per second while he is dealing direct damage(not triggered by dot)- 

Limbo's damage to enemies outside the rift is naturally reduced by 25% but increases for each enemy and ally within the rift, allies also benefit from Rift Surges effect, and have a smaller energy cost-

Augment- Energy transfer- When Limbo kills an enemy outside the rift while using Rift Surge, he channels the energy of the attack into nearby foes, banishing them and dealing "overkill damage"(if the attack that killed the enemy did more damage than they had health, the damage is divided amongst enemies in the radial banish aoe

All that being said I really like your ideas and I think they would be great if implemented into the game

Edited May 1, 2023 by NuclearCoffeePot

[Azamagon]

On 2023-04-28 at 8:36 AM, KovakAizek said:

Mate, really cool ideas and solid arguments. Love more interaction with Limbo, abilities that are not just “push things in rift” and “halt the game”, and really looking forward to see something like this(or anything, really) implemented!

Aw thanks, I've very glad you liked it! :)

On 2023-05-01 at 9:56 PM, NuclearCoffeePot said:

Personally I would just like to make rift surge a buff, that consumes extra energy to let you interact outside of the rift-

Sample Description- Limbo channels his energy into specific items and objects he interacts with, allowing him to alter their rift state- While active, Limbo's weapons will be able to damage enemies outside the rift, at a cost of energy per second while he is dealing direct damage(not triggered by dot)- 

Limbo's damage to enemies outside the rift is naturally reduced by 25% but increases for each enemy and ally within the rift, allies also benefit from Rift Surges effect, and have a smaller energy cost-

Augment- Energy transfer- When Limbo kills an enemy outside the rift while using Rift Surge, he channels the energy of the attack into nearby foes, banishing them and dealing "overkill damage"(if the attack that killed the enemy did more damage than they had health, the damage is divided amongst enemies in the radial banish aoe

All that being said I really like your ideas and I think they would be great if implemented into the game

I had a similar thought in the past as well (meaning, an ability to let you attack crossrift), but it still doesn't fix the 2 baseline fundamental issues that he has:

1) It still generally blocks off allies from attacking crossrift if he doesn't use the ability - which means if a Limbo wants to troll, they STILL simply just don't use Rift Surge. Or Helminth it off, even.

2) For those that do use your suggested version of Rift Surge, the level of cheese increases even further: You can now stay in the Rift 100% of the time, and attack other enemies outside of the Rift with 0% risk of getting hurt, ever, with very minimal downsides (-25% damage). When you're out of energy, you just wait for the Rift's passive energy regen to build up enough energy (or spam energypads or whatever) to keep cheesing all over again. It's just not healthy or interactive gameplay.

[chaotea]

On 2023-04-16 at 10:41 PM, Azamagon said:

• When in the Rift, moving around in any way (except rolling, as that toggles off the Rift entirely) and/or casting abilities = You stay in the Rift.
• When in the Rift, shooting/meleeing enemies or breakable objects, hacking consoles, using Life support, picking up manually grabbed items, activating buttons/elevators etc - interacting with anything which is on the material plane = You briefly come back to the real world (for as long as the action takes), then return to the Rift a brief moment later.

Interesting, though I'd add casting to the real world actions, and provide a 1-2 second delay before dropping back to rift mode. Adds abit more danger to actions. Would however add reviving allies to list of Rift friendly actions.

On 2023-04-16 at 10:41 PM, Azamagon said:

Conversely: When in the material plane, shooting/meleeing etc or interacting with objects which are in the Rift, you are briefly taken into the Rift.

From a technical standpoint this would be difficult to implement. Especially for non hitscan weapons. For the same effect you may as well just make it so that you can damage rift enemies when outside rift.

 

Otherwise looks interesting. Maybe overly complex.