It takes almost half a year to collect all the incarnon adapters- Timegated FOMO is the wrong direction for WF

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, NecroPed said:

I consider it FOBBO in the sense of people not having things that others do. I don't think it really has anything to do with the strength of the weapon either, I think people would complain even if it was for MR fodder. 

But how can it be FOBBO when you have the same number of choices as everyone else per week? If you dont play you should be behind others. And since you say it doesnt really have anything to do with strength of the weapons, FOBBO becomes even less of an actual issue. Since again you decide to not play if you manage to fall behind others.

[NecroPed]

42 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But how can it be FOBBO when you have the same number of choices as everyone else per week? If you dont play you should be behind others. And since you say it doesnt really have anything to do with strength of the weapons, FOBBO becomes even less of an actual issue. Since again you decide to not play if you manage to fall behind others.

Fear of being behind people if you miss out on any number of them. Like myself, I didn't get through any of the first weeks incarnon adapters [because of bugs yay] so now I'm behind, though I'm happy waiting out for the rotation to come back.

I totally agree, it shouldn't be an issue, but it's how I think a lot of people treat it.

[SneakyErvin]

10 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

Fear of being behind people if you miss out on any number of them. Like myself, I didn't get through any of the first weeks incarnon adapters [because of bugs yay] so now I'm behind, though I'm happy waiting out for the rotation to come back.

I totally agree, it shouldn't be an issue, but it's how I think a lot of people treat it.

The only part of the game where we can fall behind in a real sense is with Archon Shards, since they come in an infinite amount and will be needed aslong as new frames keep getting released really. But with these adapters its different, they come in a limited amount and then you are done with that rotation. So being behind in progress doesnt really matter since you will eventually get them all just the same as everyone else.

Now I wouldnt mind a catch up system that allows you to do previous weeks after you are done with the current, a system that resets when a full cycle has passed by. Say you've missed 5 weeks out of the 6 in a cycle, well you'll still have time to unlock all 12 adapters if you work your ass off during week 6.

[Felsagger]

Solution: 

There is a list of weapons that is going to get the Incarnon. 

1. LET THE PLAYER SELECT WHICH WEAPON HE WANTS. That throws away the FOMO and FOBBO. 

2. DON'T select filler bad weapons for the Incarnon. You have the Prisma Tetra, you have the opticor, the Lanka, among many other weapons that NEEDS an incarnon. 

3. Show the full list of weapons so the player selects which ones he wants to plug in the Incarnon. 

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

2. DON'T select filler bad weapons for the Incarnon. You have the Prisma Tetra, you have the opticor, the Lanka, among many other weapons that NEEDS an incarnon. 

But that is the point, turning the worse weapons into total monsters. Opticor and Lanka surely doesnt need incarnon since they are already decent weapons on their own, and Tetra has the Tenet version already which serves as both your disco ricochette pew pew and a handheld tactical precision nuke for all your Frank Castle needs. It is amazing what they've managed to pull off with Incarnon for the weapons they've enabled it on. Currently I've done Braton, Lato, Latron and Furis and they are all insanely powerful, with Furis being completely bonkers as a close ranged tool of doom. And the way they are designed they fill the incarnon meter so quickly.

Only downside is that they dont have the same bullS#&$ scaling perks like Laetum and Felarx that ignore boss DR.

[Felsagger]

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that is the point, turning the worse weapons into total monsters. Opticor and Lanka surely doesnt need incarnon since they are already decent weapons on their own, and Tetra has the Tenet version already which serves as both your disco ricochette pew pew and a handheld tactical precision nuke for all your Frank Castle needs. It is amazing what they've managed to pull off with Incarnon for the weapons they've enabled it on. Currently I've done Braton, Lato, Latron and Furis and they are all insanely powerful, with Furis being completely bonkers as a close ranged tool of doom. And the way they are designed they fill the incarnon meter so quickly.

Only downside is that they dont have the same bullS#&$ scaling perks like Laetum and Felarx that ignore boss DR.

 

You are playing devil's advocate on purpose. 

I'll explain why.

1. The worst weapons in the game are turned into monsters because they are THE WORST looking and THE WORST damage delivery. These are FILLER WEAPONS.  Why not let the player PRIORITIZE his selection of TASTES first and then go through those. Since all weapons probably will do the same to 9999 level enemies, why not let the player decides first his tastes. 

2. Incarnon are just damage busters with alt fire for fat numbers. That's exactly what it is.  

3. I don't want to invest my time on weapons that I AM NOT interested. Letting me choose which one feels better. Makes me go through the mechanics of Duviri. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

 

You are playing devil's advocate on purpose. 

I'll explain why.

1. The worst weapons in the game are turned into monsters because they are THE WORST looking and THE WORST damage delivery. These are FILLER WEAPONS.  Why not let the player PRIORITIZE his selection of TASTES first and then go through those. Since all weapons probably will do the same to 9999 level enemies, why not let the player decides first his tastes. 

2. Incarnon are just damage busters with alt fire for fat numbers. That's exactly what it is.  

3. I don't want to invest my time on weapons that I AM NOT interested. Letting me choose which one feels better. Makes me go through the mechanics of Duviri. 

1. Because DE wants to improve the unused weapons. Also, dont say things like worst looking, since it is a very subjective opinon. I love the look of all of the 4 weapons I currently picked for incarnon, I just havent used them earlier since they were just bad. I'm also waiting early for Ack & Brunt which I love the visuals of, so hopefully incarnon will make it strong. Heck I've wanted a Kuva A&B since Liches were introduced.

2. No not really, the alternate mode is significantly different when it comes to the playstyle of the weapon in many cases.

3. Falling back on #2 here. You cant possibly know which weapon feels better until you actually try the incarnon version. So them making something like Incarnon Opticor or Lanka wouldnt mean you'd use it even if you like the base versions, since they could work in a very different way. Some stay similar, like Braton and Lato, but Furis and Latron are completely different weapons when you activate incarnon, one turns into a massive blow torch of murder and mayhem, the other turns into a bouncy nuke. Or look at the old ones, where you have simple semi auto weapons or a full auto shotgun that turns into something quite different, be it a full-auto plasma sub machine gun, an LMG or dual plasma "shotgun" pistols.

[NecroPed]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The only part of the game where we can fall behind in a real sense is with Archon Shards, since they come in an infinite amount and will be needed aslong as new frames keep getting released really. But with these adapters its different, they come in a limited amount and then you are done with that rotation. So being behind in progress doesnt really matter since you will eventually get them all just the same as everyone else.

Now I wouldnt mind a catch up system that allows you to do previous weeks after you are done with the current, a system that resets when a full cycle has passed by. Say you've missed 5 weeks out of the 6 in a cycle, well you'll still have time to unlock all 12 adapters if you work your ass off during week 6.

I agree with you that it really doesn't matter, but I have seen people annoyed at being temporarily behind others with incarnon adapters though, which I think is silly. 

That sounds like a good idea, I'd love something like that. 

[Felsagger]

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

1. Because DE wants to improve the unused weapons. Also, dont say things like worst looking, since it is a very subjective opinon. I love the look of all of the 4 weapons I currently picked for incarnon, I just havent used them earlier since they were just bad. I'm also waiting early for Ack & Brunt which I love the visuals of, so hopefully incarnon will make it strong. Heck I've wanted a Kuva A&B since Liches were introduced.

They are unused weapons for a reason. FILLER MATERIAL. 

In other words DE is patching again. Is it bad? No. I want to prioritize my likes and then explore the rest of the weapons. It's fair. I will not have everything the first six weeks. 

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

2. No not really, the alternate mode is significantly different when it comes to the playstyle of the weapon in many cases.

Yes really. This is just a patch that adds more options to the weapon. In real time games this happens in Crysis. In PvP games this happens in Battlefield 2042. 

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

3. Falling back on #2 here. You cant possibly know which weapon feels better until you actually try the incarnon version. So them making something like Incarnon Opticor or Lanka wouldnt mean you'd use it even if you like the base versions, since they could work in a very different way. Some stay similar, like Braton and Lato, but Furis and Latron are completely different weapons when you activate incarnon, one turns into a massive blow torch of murder and mayhem, the other turns into a bouncy nuke. Or look at the old ones, where you have simple semi auto weapons or a full auto shotgun that turns into something quite different, be it a full-auto plasma sub machine gun, an LMG or dual plasma "shotgun" pistols.

That's a clean illogical excuse. Incarnon gives access to casuals so they get the chance of decimating 9999 level enemies. All the weapons will do the same. Let people decide their choices. 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Felsagger

[SneakyErvin]

45 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

They are unused weapons for a reason. FILLER MATERIAL. 

In other words DE is patching again. Is it bad? No. I want to prioritize my likes and then explore the rest of the weapons. It's fair. I will not have everything the first six weeks. 

Yes really. This is just a patch that adds more options to the weapon. In real time games this happens in Crysis. In PvP games this happens in Battlefield 2042. 

That's a clean illogical excuse. Incarnon gives access to casuals so they get the chance of decimating 9999 level enemies. All the weapons will do the same. Let people decide their choices. 

And they arent unused anymore, so no longer fillers. I would say that is a success of the system and a clear benefit for the game.

But you want weapons that arent even in the current incarnon batch, weapons that dont even need incarnon to be good. This isnt just about more open picks, this is about completely different weapons. I support the idea of picking 2 choices freely out of the 30 weapons in total per week, but that is not what you propose here. You want completely different weapons that do not even need the system in the first place.

Nope, BF wont suddenly turn an AK-74 or Galil into a Nebelwerfer or LAW if you get my point. I mean BF is probably the worst example you can make since nothing in that game is about direct power when a weapon might get additional attachments, it is all about handling for each individual player. Some play better attachmentless with the same gun that someone else might need all attachments on.

It isnt illogical. How on earth can you possibly know if you will like an incarnon form before actually using it? You cant, since it is a new weapon in practice. It's like thinking you'd love Kuva Quartakk just because you love Kuva Hind or Tiberon Prime since it has full auto and burst options, even though the practical use of the two fire modes vary massively between the Quartakk and the other two weapons mentioned.

[Felsagger]

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And they arent unused anymore, so no longer fillers. I would say that is a success of the system and a clear benefit for the game.

For repertoire activation and use of course this works. It works everywhere. No doubt about that. 

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you want weapons that arent even in the current incarnon batch, weapons that dont even need incarnon to be good.

Yes, SKILL WEAPONS. 

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

This isnt just about more open picks, this is about completely different weapons. I support the idea of picking 2 choices freely out of the 30 weapons in total per week,

 

Yes, correct. 

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

but that is not what you propose here. You want completely different weapons that do not even need the system in the first place.

They do. They can get way better. 

We skilled players wants to aim, select targets and show our dexterity. Insta Gib is fun and always be. These weapons REWARDS the skillful player. These weapons REWARDS those playstyles. 

DE can SIMPLY ADD THEM at a later update. 

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, BF wont suddenly turn an AK-74 or Galil into a Nebelwerfer or LAW if you get my point. I mean BF is probably the worst example you can make since nothing in that game is about direct power when a weapon might get additional attachments, it is all about handling for each individual player. Some play better attachmentless with the same gun that someone else might need all attachments on.

This shows that you do not have the game. Buy the game, play it. 

 

Aiming devices increases the PRECISION of a weapon. Recoil devices increases the ACCURACY of the weapon. 

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt illogical. How on earth can you possibly know if you will like an incarnon form before actually using it?

But it is. 

Remember PRETENDING TO BE the unreasonable and stubborn guy in the internet for fun and giggles, LIKE YOU, is nothing new. If you don't want to understand it or refuse it, you are free to do so. 

Priority matters for the player who seeks a style in the game. This produces retention and interest. Again if you do not want to see it, fine. 

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You cant, since it is a new weapon in practice. It's like thinking you'd love Kuva Quartakk just because you love Kuva Hind or Tiberon Prime since it has full auto and burst options, even though the practical use of the two fire modes vary massively between the Quartakk and the other two weapons mentioned.

Again, preferences matters. 

[Felsagger]

Let us resume the solution: 

1. Let the player selects 2 weapons from a stack of 30 each week. 

2. Let the player add the weapon of his own preferences to such stack removing one of that available repertoire. 

3. If we want to extend the life and interest towards Duviri then further sets of weapons with the Incarnon may be ADDED. 

 

I an a Lanka user, I use snipers, I use rail guns and I use precision beam shock weapons. Of course this is my interest. The game doesn't have to respond with my interests. But aimless weapons are not fun because you always hit the target somehow. 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2023-05-07 at 8:06 PM, Felsagger said:

Yes, SKILL WEAPONS. 

They do. They can get way better. 

We skilled players wants to aim, select targets and show our dexterity. Insta Gib is fun and always be. These weapons REWARDS the skillful player. These weapons REWARDS those playstyles. 

And there are already plenty of those in the current batch, from DMRs, semi-auto pistols and projectile based full-auto carbines aswell as bows and throwing weapons. What makes you unable to enjoy those if "skill" weapons is what you seek? If something like Lanka or Opticor (uhm where is the skill in that gun?) were added there is a 99.99% chance they would also be turned into explosive or hose incarnons considering what their base version does.

On 2023-05-07 at 8:12 PM, Felsagger said:

Let us resume the solution: 

1. Let the player selects 2 weapons from a stack of 30 each week. 

2. Let the player add the weapon of his own preferences to such stack removing one of that available repertoire. 

3. If we want to extend the life and interest towards Duviri then further sets of weapons with the Incarnon may be ADDED. 

 

I an a Lanka user, I use snipers, I use rail guns and I use precision beam shock weapons. Of course this is my interest. The game doesn't have to respond with my interests. But aimless weapons are not fun because you always hit the target somehow. 

1 Yes.

2. What exactly do you mean here? Do you mean like a half version of #1, where you get to pick 1 out of 30 but you're still stuck with 5 from a weekly rotation, and one of those 5 are randomly replaced with a weapon you pick out of the total 30?

3. Already confirmed long ago.

[Felsagger]

List replacement. 

Remove one of the 30 weapons and add one of your choice. The total number remains 30. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

List replacement. 

Remove one of the 30 weapons and add one of your choice. The total number remains 30. 

But uhm... how would that even work? They'd have to make an incarnon for each single weapon in the game at that point with a unique animation, weapon mechanic, aestethics and perks. That is 400+ weapons they need to tweak individually for all those different things, even if they were to not allow certain weapons to be used in the system, like kuva versions and so on.

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But uhm... how would that even work? They'd have to make an incarnon for each single weapon in the game at that point with a unique animation, weapon mechanic, aestethics and perks. That is 400+ weapons they need to tweak individually for all those different things, even if they were to not allow certain weapons to be used in the system, like kuva versions and so on.

Oh I see the problem with that idea. 

It's a matter of design per weapon. You are right. A replacement doesn't solve the problem because the item for the weapon should be designed first. 

[wavic]

About that wait a week or more until next time...
I didn't play Styanax yet because of that. That grind now with Duvirri is nothing. You can chose an incarnon adapter and get it the same day. Not even close to compare of grinding for Styanax and the Archon mods. You have one mission per week, fixed points and that's all. Oh, you want to have it among the others and for Helminth too... Double that time. If I force myself to do the necessary amount of missions to get all the parts and craft the frame I will give her to the Helminth and I will never come back to those missions. Same for the weapons there. It will be the last thing left to farm in order to do it. As I see how DE brings more and more items to the game which are more and more time consuming to get that will be never. Despite I have a decent riven mod for Aegrit.

Edited May 12, 2023 by wavic

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

On 2023-05-07 at 12:12 PM, Felsagger said:

Let us resume the solution: 

1. Let the player selects 2 weapons from a stack of 30 each week. 

2. Let the player add the weapon of his own preferences to such stack removing one of that available repertoire. 

3. If we want to extend the life and interest towards Duviri then further sets of weapons with the Incarnon may be ADDED. 

 

I an a Lanka user, I use snipers, I use rail guns and I use precision beam shock weapons. Of course this is my interest. The game doesn't have to respond with my interests. But aimless weapons are not fun because you always hit the target somehow. 

This is definitely the best option I fully agree. Just let us choose any two.

Edited May 12, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[Kaiga]

Games should not punish you for not playing them. Every reasonable person knows this.

Every reasonable person except Digital extremes, who, beginning with the Archon Shard drama, is moving in the direction of time-limited content that punishes players for not having the unlimited leisure time on *that specific week* to farm the thing they want, otherwise it's back into the waiting room void, or cough up IRL money.
They seem to have taken a page out of destiny 2's playbook, who's item and weapon collecting revolves around being online for absolutely critical vendor rotations, FOMO, and content being event and DLC-gated, and even paid content being outright removed at times.


I don't know about you, but i'd rather not have that as the future of our game.

[PublikDomain]

Reminder that there's no reason there couldn't be a mechanism to upgrade/downgrade/convert Shards and that there's no reason Incarnon Adapters couldn't just be a generic item you can get 2 of a week and put on whatever you want. Nor is there any reason there couldn't be mechanisms to convert these kinds of items into other useful things to give them and their accompanying content some longevity once you've finally checked off your checklist. Been saying this from the start of both systems, but if it's really that much better for content to die off and become a ghost town then idk. IDK if I'd take it straight to doom and gloom but things could be so much better and it's not even complicated.

Edited July 27, 2023 by PublikDomain

[TeaHands]

21 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

beginning with the Archon Shard drama, is moving in the direction of time-limited content that punishes players for not having the unlimited leisure time on *that specific week*

Uh, it started wayyyyy before Archon Shards, Baro's been coming around with time-limited content that can only be circumvented by spending money for a pretty long time now.

[kamisama85]

The only punishing happening here is the self-inflicted punishment by your own hand coming here to commemorate every week with a new post about the exact same thing.

[Kaiga]

21 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

The only punishing happening here is the self-inflicted punishment by your own hand coming here to commemorate every week with a new post about the exact same thing.

That's actually a lie. This thread was inactive for about 2 months before the mod staff decided to move one of my posts in another location into here, to ostensibly consolidate negative feedback for DE and make it look like this was the case.

Congratulations, people like you are the reason why the community is incapable of holding our developers to account when they make bonkers decisions.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Kaiga

[(PSN)Unstar]

With respect, there's no punishment happening here.  If you don't play the game, you don't get the rewards.  That's in no way a radical concept.

This is not time-limited content; it's a never-ending rotation of items.  If you couldn't play for a week, you haven't missed the item you want forever; it will be back soon.  And in the meantime, you in no way need Shards or Incarnon Genesis to complete any of the game's content.

My best guess is that you are focusing too much on some kind of min-maxing completionism?  If that's the case, I'd recommend you take a step back, take a few deep breaths, and ask yourself in regards to whatever item you are disappointed you don't have: do I really need this?  And if you're honest, I think you'll find that the answer is no, and that this isn't something worth being upset about.

[Kaiga]

40 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

With respect, there's no punishment happening here

Saying "A 14 week time gate doesn't actually inconvenience anyone, it's all in your head/perception" requires a decent amount of mental gymnastics that's akin to the lack of a war outside ba sing se, for those who get the reference. 

Whether you find it personally inconvenient or not is irrelevant- gigantic time gates for what is meant to be the game's premier, highest level endgame content is plainly bad design, systems that encourage you to not engage with them, and penalize you with another time gate for not having enough lesiure time to participate that week.

Particularly since this is the only thing left to do for a majority of these endgame players. It is difficult to argue this is born out of a completionist mindset, when the entire point of this game is to collect stuff, and this is the featured content being upsold. 

Additionally- do you not need these things to defeat most of the game's content? Of course not. You don't need anything beyond a well modded braton, so why bother criticizing the poor design of anything at all post-braton since hey, you don't need it anyway.

See how ridiculous that point is when it meets reality?