Thermal Sunder Garuda...

[Qriist]

35 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Reave is unusual though, being "health drain", and might not be representative of normal damage abilities.

Reave does a consistent percentage of the affected enemy's max health. My guess is that's considered ability damage regardless of other non-amplification factors, kinda the same way as the kills from Kullervo's damage web do not count as melee kills despite deleting the triggering enemy with melee.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Qriist

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 1 heure, Tiltskillet a dit :

Shuriken is another  "weapon" damage ability though.

edit: I guess what I'm saying is that the ability tip could be based on a misunderstanding or poor wording by whoever wrote it.  i.e., her passive works on both [her] abilities and [her] weapons, because her abilities happen to be coded as weapons.*

It's impossible to say for sure, but if Traum is right and it works on these odd "weapon" abilities and no other injected abilities, it's at least suggestive that's the case.

_{* Although as a trivial aside, it doesn't apply to her shield bash damage.  Things are never simple with DE. :P}

Yes, it seems to be very confusing things here. 

Eclipse, as an exemple, is intended to work only for weapons, but it also buffs some abilities damage : the same abilities that causes weapon damage. 

In my opinion, most of these things we are discussing about are more Bug Reports (and/or text correction). 

Specially that the "weapon damage abilities" are most of the time bugs : this is the name some use to call abilities that are affected by some weapons multipliers. Regurgitate's explosion, Fire Ball, Smite projectiles, Air burst... but these weapons multipliers get often fixed, as they fixed Theorem Demulcent. 

Citation

Hotfix 32.0.12 (2022-10-12)

Fixed the Theorem Demulcent Arcane applying its weapon damage increase buff to Ember’s Fireball.
Theorem Demulcent is designed to only increase weapon damage and should not be able to affect any Warframe ability.

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[Traumtulpe]

7 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

If your knowledge of the game is better than the the knowledge the devs, who wrote the in game information, have about their own game, you should replace them.

The devs coded Garuda's abilities as weapon damage intentionally so that her passive would buff them, because her passive buffs weapon damage. This is really simple and I'm bored of repeating myself. Have a nice day.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 4 heures, Traumtulpe a dit :

The devs coded Garuda's abilities as weapon damage intentionally so that her passive would buff them, because her passive buffs weapon damage. This is really simple and I'm bored of repeating myself. Have a nice day.

You get bored very fast.

The game codes are not that easy and, as I've shown by some exemples : Xata's Whisper, Breach Surge, Theorem Demulcent,... things can currently work in a certain way and not be intended.

Also, saying that the Devs codded Garuda's abilities as weapon damage to make her passive work on them lacks some references (baseless statement) : how do you know that ??? Ember's Fireball is also "codded as weapon damage", the same for Breach Surge, Desolate Hands, and the Devs themselves fixed a weapon buff working on these abilities : because "Theorem Demulcent is designed to only increase weapon damage and should not be able to affect any Warframe ability" (Hotfix 32.0.12). You see : to the Devs, it doesn't matter if those abilities were "codded to make weapon damage", a weapon buff is not intended to work on them. But one thing we know for sure is that the Devs had the intention to make Garuda's passive work on her weapons and [her] abilities (in game text). This is the Devs explicit intention.

Also, I'm repeating myself again (but I'll never get tired !💪) : Abilities making weapon damage are defined as abilities that are currently affected by some Weapons buffs and this "feature" is most of the time just glitches (some were already fixed). A great exemple is Titania RazorFlies, that used to trigger some headshot arcanes (but did not benefit from them) : they corrected it, as Titania RazorFlies were not supposed to work as weapons.

The way some abilities currently work is not neccessarily the way they should work.

Another exemple : Titania's (let's keep the Fairy queen 🦋) Dex Pixia will be affected by Vigorous Swap buff, but not Diwata, even if the same buff applies to Spectral Scream, Seeking Talons, Final Stand and some other abilities. Have the Devs codded Diwata (a melee weapon) as not making weapon damage (!) to not be buffed by weapons multipliers ??? No, Vigorous Swap affecting some "projectile" abilities it's just a glitch, that will be fixed someday (Soon™😁), it's normal that it doesn't affect Diwata (even though it applies to some melee projectiles and melee throw - Wolf Sledge).

Calling some abilities "melee damage abilities" because of glitches and then saying that Garuda's passive only work on bugged abilities to conclude that everything is ok, is a nonsense to me : Garuda's passive seems bugged and those weapons multipliers working on some abilities are bugged. That's all folks !😁

Ah ! I've almost forgot : Have a nice and shiny day !☀️

Edited October 17, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[FightingTAKA]

12 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

友よ、私はゲーム自体が言っていることを繰り返しているだけです。ガルーダのパッシブは武器や能力に対して機能します。機能しない場合は、不具合なので修正する必要があります。

だからこそ私は、それは機能するはずだと言いましたし、少なくとも一部の能力では機能します。 

理由が何であれ、能力に効果がないというのは間違いです。 

ゲームに関するあなたの知識が、ゲーム内情報を書いた開発者が自分のゲームについて持っている知識よりも優れている場合は、その知識を置き換えるべきです。

ちなみにサーマルサンダーについては公式からの情報待ちです。

I say this in his honor.
Garuda's passive is updated frequently and buff stats keep changing whether DE intends it or not.
Previously, TS was also valid.
Not valid for TS, at least for now.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 26 minutes, FightingTAKA a dit :

I say this in his honor.
Garuda's passive is updated frequently and buff stats keep changing whether DE intends it or not.
Previously, TS was also valid.
Not valid for TS, at least for now.

Oh ! I wasn't aware of this.

Thanks very much for this precious information.👍

ありがとうございます (I hope this is correctly written).

Edited October 17, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[(NSW)freedycurie]

il y a une heure, (NSW)AegisFifi a dit :

You get bored very fast.

The game codes are not that easy and, as I've shown by some exemples : Xata's Whisper, Breach Surge, Theorem Demulcent,... things can currently work in a certain way and not be intended.

Also, saying that the Devs codded Garuda's abilities as weapon damage to make her passive work on them lacks some references (baseless statement) : how do you know that ??? Ember's Fireball is also "codded as weapon damage", the same for Breach Surge, Desolate Hands, and the Devs themselves fixed a weapon buff working on these abilities : because "Theorem Demulcent is designed to only increase weapon damage and should not be able to affect any Warframe ability" (Hotfix 32.0.12). You see : to the Devs, it doesn't matter if those abilities were "codded to make weapon damage", a weapon buff is not intended to work on them. But one thing we know for sure is that the Devs had the intention to make Garuda's passive work on her weapons and [her] abilities (in game text). This is the Devs explicit intention.

Also, I'm repeating myself again (but I'll never get tired !💪) : Abilities making weapon damage are defined as abilities that are currently affected by some Weapons buffs and this "feature" is most of the time just glitches (some were already fixed). A great exemple is Titania RazorFlies, that used to trigger some headshot arcanes (but did not benefit from them) : they corrected it, as Titania RazorFlies were not supposed to work as weapons.

The way some abilities currently work is not neccessarily the way they should work.

Another exemple : Titania's (let's keep the Fairy queen 🦋) Dex Pixia will be affected by Vigorous Swap buff, but not Diwata, even if the same buff applies to Spectral Scream, Seeking Talons, Final Stand and some other abilities. Have the Devs codded Diwata (a melee weapon) as not making weapon damage (!) to not be buffed by weapons multipliers ??? No, Vigorous Swap affecting some "projectile" abilities it's just a glitch, that will be fixed someday (Soon™😁), it's normal that it doesn't affect Diwata (even though it applies to some melee projectiles and melee throw - Wolf Sledge).

Calling some abilities "melee damage abilities" because of glitches and then saying that Garuda's passive only work on bugged abilities to conclude that everything is ok, is a nonsense to me : Garuda's passive seems bugged and those weapons multipliers working on some abilities are bugged. That's all folks !😁

Ah ! I've almost forgot : Have a nice and shiny day !☀️

Ok. Very nice. I agree with everything, but... wans't Thermal Sunder the topic here ???

[AegidiusF]

Good news !

Today's Update will try to fix the Thermal Sunder Garuda/Harrow thing : the subsumed Thermal Sunder will have a cap.

 

[Traumtulpe]

27 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Today's Update will try to fix the Thermal Sunder Garuda/Harrow thing : the subsumed Thermal Sunder will have a cap.

RIP Thermal Sunder. This sounds like it will also completely neuter using Thermal Sunder as a kind of Expedite Suffering for Heat procs, which was neat and is now dead. Pity.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 20 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

RIP Thermal Sunder. This sounds like it will also completely neuter using Thermal Sunder as a kind of Expedite Suffering for Heat procs, which was neat and is now dead. Pity.

On the other hand, Pablo said they were going to nerf subsumed Thermal Sunder, not Thermal Sunder in itself, so I think (it's just my opinion) that you were right when you said that Thermal Sunder was working as intended. Specially, that Pablo said that they were going to "nerf" it, not "fix" it.

But don't sing Thermal Sunder Requiem yet : we'll have to try it to see. Perhaps it will be still viable for what you wanted. We still have a couple of hours of hope 👍.

Edited October 18, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

But don't sing Thermal Sunder Requiem yet : we'll have to try it to see. Perhaps it will be still viable for what you wanted.

Haha, no. It'll have a 2000 damage cap or something silly like that.

You'll put a 500k Heat dot on a demolyst, try to double it with Thermal Sunder... and get a completely irrelevant 2000 damage.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[AegidiusF]

il y a 1 minute, Traumtulpe a dit :

Haha, no. It'll have a 2000 damage cap or something silly like that.

You'll put a 500k Heat dot on a demolyst, try to double it with Thermal Sunder... and get a completely irrelevant 2000 damage.

Oh ! Yeah ! That would be bad.

Sorry for your lost.

Requiem aeternam in aeternum dona ei !

[PurpleDraken]

I read 5 page of whining and now it is nerf....people make me laugh so much, let's nerf everything in that case, so many thing do so much damage for way less ressources.
Thank you for the laugh, really

[Aruquae]

It’s not just thermal sunder Garuda

Garuda’s completely fine, it’s thermal sunder that’s the problem

Remember thermal sunder Harrow.

[Seele]

23 hours ago, PurpleDraken said:

I read 5 page of whining and now it is nerf....people make me laugh so much, let's nerf everything in that case, so many thing do so much damage for way less ressources.
Thank you for the laugh, really

I'm flattered you broke your months-long silence to comment this on my thread. I'm sure you'll find some other mind-numbingly boring way to play this generously easy game soon enough, chin up bud.

21 hours ago, Malikili said:

It’s not just thermal sunder Garuda

Garuda’s completely fine, it’s thermal sunder that’s the problem

Remember thermal sunder Harrow.

While Harrow was also capable of abuse, I did not ever encounter a problematic number of thermal sunder Harrows.
Yes, in the process of scrutinizing the issue, it was obvious that the real issue is Thermal Sunder itself (if not, in my controversial opinion, Helminth subsumption in general).

But! Problem solved, hopefully. I look forward to being able to enjoy playing Warframe again.

[Aruquae]

20 hours ago, Seele said:

I'm flattered you broke your months-long silence to comment this on my thread. I'm sure you'll find some other mind-numbingly boring way to play this generously easy game soon enough, chin up bud.

While Harrow was also capable of abuse, I did not ever encounter a problematic number of thermal sunder Harrows.
Yes, in the process of scrutinizing the issue, it was obvious that the real issue is Thermal Sunder itself (if not, in my controversial opinion, Helminth subsumption in general).

But! Problem solved, hopefully. I look forward to being able to enjoy playing Warframe again.

Problem solved indeed!

And yea, you’re right. Only time I’ve ever encountered a thermal Harrow was when my friend did it for affinity farming. Maybe they switched to Garuda for better energy management? Or maybe her fourth has something to do with it? Idk, who cares at this point.

[Waeleto]

HUGE W
Now can we get saryn nerfed too ?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

On 2023-10-18 at 10:29 AM, Traumtulpe said:

You'll put a 500k Heat dot on a demolyst, try to double it with Thermal Sunder... and get a completely irrelevant 2000 damage.

Sunder never doubled heat procs when used against demolishers. That the infused version has diminished effectiveness as an expedite suffering for Heat procs is regrettable but in the end incosequential. Easy enough to shift to the effectively equivalent Sickening Pulse.

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Now can we get saryn nerfed too

Again? How many more nerfs does she need? She's just a glorified Corrosive proc at higher levels, and not a good one like Hydriod.

[Seele]

Yeah I don't feel Saryn needs any nerfs at all, at this point.

However the celebrations may have been premature. My first day back in public lobbies saw no change in thermal sunder spam. Most lobbies were just one Garuda but I did have one team comprised of Garuda, Harrow, and Gauss himself. All SP survival, by the by. The 'meta' here is to camp the entrance completely motionlessly and extract at 5, apparently, so the TS spammer(s) would do 89%+ of the damage, get the vast majority of the kills (which limits my ability to stack power strength via my arcane), and then either leave me to solo or force me to extract too.

I didn't expect a perfect solution and was tickled that one was implemented at all, but a second look may be in order.

[FightingTAKA]

6 hours ago, Seele said:

しかし、祝賀会は時期尚早だったかもしれない。公共のロビーに戻った初日は、サーマルサンダースパムに変化は見られませんでした。ほとんどのロビーはガルーダ 1 体だけでしたが、私はガルーダ、ハロウ、ガウス自身で構成されるチームを 1 つ用意しました。ところで、SP全員生存。ここでの「メタ」は、入り口を完全に動かずにキャンプし、5 で抽出することです。そのため、TS スパマーが 89% 以上のダメージを与え、キルの大部分を獲得することになります (これにより、私のスタックパワーの能力が制限されます)私の秘術による強さ）、そしてそれから私をソロに任せるか、私にも抽出を強制するかのどちらかです。

The reason for this is that TS also serves as CC.
TS frames can often cover a wide area, allowing you to CC enemies behind walls and continue to deal damage one-sidedly.
Since the enemy does not move from behind the wall, normal frames have limited ways to attack.
Currently, in a battle style where the platoon does not move, it is natural for the TS frame to do most of the damage.

Furthermore, the problem lies in the fact that the status ailments that give damage Proc also double as CC. The reason why cold air was not used over fire is because CC with fire is sufficient against normal enemies. Isn't there a need for flame damage proc? it's not. So no cold air was used.

[FeRixia]

 

9 hours ago, Seele said:

Yeah I don't feel Saryn needs any nerfs at all, at this point.

However the celebrations may have been premature. My first day back in public lobbies saw no change in thermal sunder spam. Most lobbies were just one Garuda but I did have one team comprised of Garuda, Harrow, and Gauss himself. All SP survival, by the by. The 'meta' here is to camp the entrance completely motionlessly and extract at 5, apparently, so the TS spammer(s) would do 89%+ of the damage, get the vast majority of the kills (which limits my ability to stack power strength via my arcane), and then either leave me to solo or force me to extract too.

I didn't expect a perfect solution and was tickled that one was implemented at all, but a second look may be in order.

It looks like the main problem is everyone leaving at 5. Why is this? TS won't scale as well into endurance anymore, so this is a nonissue. TS is in a good balanced spot now, being viable for base SP but not being able to scale due to the cap. I personally rarely encounter TS users in my many public lobbies. If you are reading this DE, please consider that many use TS as a fun clearing tool and that the current changes are sufficient. Overnerfing is fun for no one and if they are indeed botting the game, punish botters, not the ability.

If you really don't like players leaving at 5, play solo or a premade. TS won't change that.

[Seele]

14 minutes ago, FeRixia said:

 

It looks like the main problem is everyone leaving at 5. Why is this? TS won't scale as well into endurance anymore, so this is a nonissue. TS is in a good balanced spot now, being viable for base SP but not being able to scale due to the cap. I personally rarely encounter TS users in my many public lobbies. If you are reading this DE, please consider that many use TS as a fun clearing tool and that the current changes are sufficient. Overnerfing is fun for no one and if they are indeed botting the game, punish botters, not the ability.

If you really don't like players leaving at 5, play solo or a premade. TS won't change that.

Leaving at 5 is just inconvenient. I much prefer doing survival for extended periods of time because otherwise, other game modes are just more time efficient. When I was a young buck, survival high scoring was the endgame of Warframe and I enjoy doing it.

I was doing relic cracks, so having a full party is obviously preferable for more reward choices. I have no warframe-playing friends anywhere near this timezone, so coordinating a premade is difficult. (Warframe is also not terribly popular here, so my odds at making a new friend who does live in this timezone are not great.)

Again! I recognize that playing only solo or premade solves my entire problem. Not only will I/we leave when I/we want, I/we won't use thermal sunder. But public lobbies are a facet of the game for a plethora of very good reasons, relic cracking not least among them.

[FeRixia]

10 hours ago, Seele said:

Again! I recognize that playing only solo or premade solves my entire problem. Not only will I/we leave when I/we want, I/we won't use thermal sunder. But public lobbies are a facet of the game for a plethora of very good reasons, relic cracking not least among them.

I get it, but let's look at several points that make TS not a problem.

1. Its damage now caps, which means in base sp it won't insta murder everything, even with unlimited energy. The reduced kpm allows other players to contribute. Its damage is also terrible on Overguard and Acolytes. It's not a one size fits all. It suffers especially hard on armor.

2. You need a specific setup. Should players not be rewarded for having creative synergies, automated macros notwithstanding? If they want to manually spam it, more power to them! You need to actively recast other abilities to regain energy.

3. It has a limited 30m range, which means the entire map is not covered, and most maps are well beyond this range.

4. While it may seem prevalent to you, the use rate really is not high. It may be due to the region and times you play in, so I can't speak of everyone's experiences.

5. There are many other ways to "sit in one spot" and either spam abilities or fire something aoe to clear the map. This is not new. TS is just another fun option. Just because you personally dislike it, doesn't warrant another nerf (which as they said did a deep dive on). The nerf was perfect to discourage long amounts of time to spam and keeping its utility as low level clear. There are many abilities out there that don't mesh with others well (e.g. base Harrow, Limbo) who either disrupt kills or force others to adapt to their playstyle or end up conflicting.

This is just to say that TS is fine as is and you get what you get in public matches. TS, while a strong aoe, doesn't prevent others from contributing and is in a good place in the game (arguably even prenerf). Macroers who sit there spamming it are the real issue and ruining the ability to uselessness because of another problem is a bad look.

[Seele]

5 hours ago, FeRixia said:

 

This is just to say that TS is fine as is and you get what you get in public matches. TS, while a strong aoe, doesn't prevent others from contributing and is in a good place in the game (arguably even prenerf). Macroers who sit there spamming it are the real issue and ruining the ability to uselessness because of another problem is a bad look.

I heard similar arguments in defense of maiming strike atterax, back when it was the best thing in the game. The problem wasn't the strength of the mod and weapon in tandem, it was the fact that it was easily automated, they said. And we can see how that ended up.

Easy and strong should have a meaningful gap between them. It's why launchers don't headshot anymore, it's why ignis got nerfed repeatedly. Thermal sunder, for how easy it is, is too strong, even post-nerf. If players are encouraged to use it and nothing else (save energy economy abilities), that is strongly indicative of unhealthy balance.

Let me try to show some objectivity here. I love Frost. He's one of the originals, he was my first Prime, and he reminds me of Kopaka, my favorite Bionicle. Frost has fluctuated from good, to nigh-mandatory for defense but useless besides, to just overall bad and power-crept beyond justification, to now being quite good again. He has survivability, team support, crowd control, armor strip, and decent damage - everything you could want in a warframe. The problem is that all of those cool good things come from Avalanche. His other buttons are pointless. So while I love Frost and am glad he is strong again, he is not balanced. Freeze, snow globe, and especially ice wave are so limited in application that the vast majority of the time they are best left completely unused to save energy for more avalanches.

So when thermal sunder is avalanche, but for everyone, it's a huge problem. Thermal sunder is CC, damage, and armor strip all on a generous AoE that goes through walls, and any warframe can use it, up to and including ones who essentially completely ignore energy costs and spam it for perpetuity. There's a meaningful reason it's thermal sunder and not airburst or fireball or any other subsumible ability, and that reason is thermal sunder is too good.

Macro abusers don't turn bad game pieces into good ones via automation, they simply automate things that are already too good. You'll never see someone using a macro with Grendel, or the Stug, or Akjagara Prime or Nami Solo, so is the macro the real problem, or just a symptom?