The price of Heirloom skins is incredibly disappointing.

[Slayer-.]

7 hours ago, SanZhang said:

I would like to support this topic as well, although it is a late one.

i have been playing warframe for a long time, to a point where i once study the history of DE and warframe, how they had struggled against publishers, and how they gained supporters - to the point where they once made some gacha-like bundles; where they have received reports players been spending too much and they changed the system.

my point is, i respect their ideals so much & seeing DE still striving until today with their ways - although for some times they made mistakes, but still i hold myself to comment cause i believe they'll fix it or make it better - unlike many other devs and or publishers..

but, today is the disappointment is kinda huge. this is the 1st of my voice against DE's decision in this 10 year heirloom pack.

i have been on and off in wf, sometimes short time sometimes longer cause of some irl situations & works related. i just got back around 2 months agk, so i have been missing out the info regarding this pack.

when i saw players wearing frost skin i never seen in market, thats how i end up found out the pack.

still, on the shop page, i failed to see/find the countdown time. until i finally decide that this january 2024, i would like to grab it. then a player told me, its alr gone.

i am using frost as my main for a very long time, 2k hourplay, n 35% usage on frost.. and to know that i cant have this new collection for my fave frame.. is a huge disappointment.

i believe many other players who played longer and using frost as the main, and might be busy this year (2023), and probably didnt know about this matter until they return back to the game, just to find out that these collection is just a dream.

please, DE.. have you forgotten your origin..

 

best regards

I can still see it on PC, did you make sure your Market has the FEATURED tab showing, then in search type Heir, it will list all three of them.

[Ersedu]

9 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

It's still in the market for me and my date is the 2 January 2024, I'd say it will get removed once DE is back from their break.

Have you restarted your game since the removal date? 

It removed it when I restarted 

so it’s probably a bug that it’s still showing and likely won’t let you buy it 

Edited January 2 by Ersedu

[Slayer-.]

24 minutes ago, Ersedu said:

Have you restarted your game since the removal date? 

It removed it when I restarted 

so it’s probably a bug that it’s still showing and likely won’t let you buy it 

My game is restarted everyday, and it's the 2nd of January 2024.

I get the option to buy it at the last stage but I'm not clicking it.

It takes me to STEAM to finalize the Transaction, but I just cancel it.

Spoiler

Edit:
I just restarted again and it's still there and purchasable. 

This is how I see it.

I can still see it on PC, make sure your Market has the FEATURED tab showing, then in search type Heir, it will list all three of them.

Edited January 2 by Slayer-.

[Ersedu]

14 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

My game is restarted everyday, and it's the 2nd of January 2024.

I get the option to buy it at the last stage but I'm not clicking it.

It takes me to STEAM to finalize the Transaction, but I just cancel it.

Edit:
I just restarted again and it's still there and purchasable. 

This is how I see it.

I can still see it on PC, make sure your Market has the FEATURED tab showing, then in search type Heir, it will list all three of them.

Well I can confirm it’s been removed from Xbox , PSN & Switch 

 

Steam probably forgot to remove it but I doubt the purchase would go through if it does good for anyone lucky enough to get it past the end date 

ultimately it is the platform store that is responsible for removing the packs 

[Slayer-.]

3 minutes ago, Ersedu said:

Well I can confirm it’s been removed from Xbox , PSN & Switch 

 

Steam probably forgot to remove it but I doubt the purchase would go through if it does good for anyone lucky enough to get it past the end date 

ultimately it is the platform store that is responsible for removing the packs 

What I found crazy when I looked I couldn't find it either until I set my tab in the Market to show the FEATURED tab, then in search type Heir, it listed them all for myself. 

Also why would the Market even fire up my STEAM if it's dead in the water.

Edited January 2 by Slayer-.

[Ersedu]

1 minute ago, Slayer-. said:

What I found crazy when I looked I couldn't find it either until I set my tab in the Market to show the FEATURED tab, then in search type Heir, it listed them all for myself. 

Also why would the Market even fire up my STEAM if it's dead in the water.

I can confirm it’s not supposed to be available on steam now too 

[Slayer-.]

1 minute ago, Ersedu said:

I can confirm it’s not supposed to be available on steam now too 

I'm not going to STEAM like in your screenshot, I'm going from the warframe ingame Market to do the transaction in my STEAM wallet, so have no idea why I can still get to the last step of buying it.

[Ersedu]

1 minute ago, Slayer-. said:

I'm not going to STEAM like in your screenshot, I'm going from the warframe ingame Market to do the transaction in my STEAM wallet, so have no idea why I can still get to the last step of buying it.

 

the in game store might not have updated yet on pc definitely did on console as it’s nowhere to be found even searching 

so it’s definitely probably a unintended thing

[Slayer-.]

1 minute ago, Ersedu said:

 

the in game store might not have updated yet on pc definitely did on console as it’s nowhere to be found even searching 

so it’s definitely probably a unintended thing

I agree, there is some funky stuff going on. 👍 

If others can do the same process like me, that missed out waiting for the 11th hour, I reckon good luck if it works the way I'm able to.

[TheLyricAinu]

On 2024-01-01 at 2:49 PM, Ersedu said:

Heirloom Bundle is vaulted and gone forever now 

 

so everyone can finally move on 

 

you didn’t miss out on much really

 

they will probably add even better looking Tennogen skins in the ingame store for platinum at some point or something 

 

people that bought the heirloom bundle mostly did it to support the game like me the stuff was extra bonus items 

after 10 years of playing warframe I love the game enough to support it 

they could have just given me a Sigil I still would have bought it because that money goes towards helping the game grow 

and like I said Tennogen will probably release something way better at some point 

 

so everyone relax 

They have confirmed they're going to make more Heirloom packs. Just that they're going to approach it differently.

[PollexMessier]

33 minutes ago, TheLyricAinu said:

They have confirmed they're going to make more Heirloom packs. Just that they're going to approach it differently.

They should REALLY just take the L and abandon the idea. Every time they make a new one everyone is going to be reminded of this complete train wreck and be frustrated that these ones are unavailable forever. They should just put that effort into more deluxe skins. The Heirloom name is permanently tainted. Even if they release future ones for plat I don't think I'd want to touch them because of just how much I utterly despised what they did with this. They slap a time gate on them again and you better believe I'm quitting the game for good.

Completely DEspicable behavior. Doing future ones better isn't going to win them any brownie points, it's just going to re-open the wound. What is going to win them brownie points is stuff like how they treated this last supporter pack, with all the major items being platinum purchasable and having no time gate. Exactly how it should have always been.

[Ersedu]

7 hours ago, TheLyricAinu said:

They have confirmed they're going to make more Heirloom packs. Just that they're going to approach it differently.

They never confirmed anything they said if they ever do heirloom packs again they will do it differently 

quote directly from the heirloom update thread ( if we make more ) key words there 

 

 

meaning it’s up in the air whether it will continue or follow the founders program into the vault 

 

personally I don’t think they will ever do heirloom again after the mess this one was 

Edited January 3 by Ersedu

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

6 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

They should REALLY just take the L and abandon the idea. Every time they make a new one everyone is going to be reminded of this complete train wreck and be frustrated that these ones are unavailable forever.

 

Eh, whilst I get your point and don't disagree. People on the whole? May not behave this way. Consider Regal Aya. Horrible at first, the improved version went over much better. For many, the bad tastes was removed. Whilst I think the "improved version" of Heirlooms was still incredibly lacking, and didn't actually address most of the issues and complaints people had... 

If the next Heirloom pack was significantly improved, less bundling, less FOMO elements, cheaper, etc and had two really really good skins for popular Warframes... A lot of peoples attitudes will probably change, not to mention, a lot of people weren't that bothered in the first place. You will have people who will legitimately think, that "the first Heirlooms were a train wreck, but I am glad they improved the situation now, and we got good skins and in a better way", even if you have a lot of who are still very critical. 

Like not all people think and behave the same. We can all be a bit fickle depending on the situation and observations, perceptions of others. People also often, when critical, like to caution and take a more cynical approach to ideas of the same type. Except cynical isn't always realistic or to put it another way, cynicism can be expressed in various ways. "People" as well as being fickle, also can have short term memories. Or they might simple not feel as strongly or offended and can be more forgiving and easily pleased than others. Its tricky too, because for every example you can have of someone "endorsing bad policies" by ending up "on the other side", you will find people who could potentially accuse you of similar behaviour elsewhere or in some other context. 

For myself personally, if they put them on a long rotation, as in you could only buy then during certain periods, that would alleviate my biggest issue. Though, if they also improved/lessened the bundling aspects, since not all people need to get Plat/Regal Aya if they are just after a nice skin etc, also great. Better options for more people, since on the whole, people can have different issues, struggles etc. 

That all also being said, like I said, I wouldn't blame people for having a perma bad tastes either, regardless of what DE do, even if they did improve the Heirlooms. Totally legit and valid to feel that way.

[PublikDomain]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

If the next Heirloom pack was significantly improved, less bundling, less FOMO elements, cheaper, etc and had two really really good skins for popular Warframes...

Then they'd just be Deluxe skins. Which is all Heirlooms are anyways, but that's besides my point. Why resurface the negativity surrounding the already-tarnished Heirloom name when they could avoid it altogether by just calling them something different? So long as DE refuses to make the Mag and Frost Heirloom skins available for future players the Heirloom label will remain radioactive even if all of the other concerns are addressed.

[NekroArts]

7 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

They should REALLY just take the L and abandon the idea. Every time they make a new one everyone is going to be reminded of this complete train wreck and be frustrated that these ones are unavailable forever. They should just put that effort into more deluxe skins. The Heirloom name is permanently tainted. Even if they release future ones for plat I don't think I'd want to touch them because of just how much I utterly despised what they did with this. They slap a time gate on them again and you better believe I'm quitting the game for good.

Completely DEspicable behavior. Doing future ones better isn't going to win them any brownie points, it's just going to re-open the wound. What is going to win them brownie points is stuff like how they treated this last supporter pack, with all the major items being platinum purchasable and having no time gate. Exactly how it should have always been.

Considering what this and the other thread went through, I suspect most of the same people won't let themselves go through that again. The wound will open, but at best they'll just make a few short post and then "move on". Heirloom-related threads from October to December pretty much shows that most are no longer interested in deeply engaging with it. In retrospect, the time and energy put in during September was a complete waste; if another does come this question will be in their back of their minds: am I going to waste my time and energy on this again?

[Ersedu]

56 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 So long as DE refuses to make the Mag and Frost Heirloom skins available for future players the Heirloom label will remain radioactive even if all of the other concerns are addressed.

Based on the bundle info and the fact it said they were never coming back 

they would legally be unable to bring them back much like founders pack 

As the fact they said they would never come back is a legally binding transaction agreement 

so they are never coming back unfortunately 

them the rules

Edited January 3 by Ersedu

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Then they'd just be Deluxe skins. Which is all Heirlooms are anyways, but that's besides my point. Why resurface the negativity surrounding the already-tarnished Heirloom name when they could avoid it altogether by just calling them something different? So long as DE refuses to make the Mag and Frost Heirloom skins available for future players the Heirloom label will remain radioactive even if all of the other concerns are addressed.

 

Not necessarily. Deluxe skins are brought for Plat. Heirlooms would still be money purchases, in such cases. We can be reductive in lots of ways. Deluxe skins are just regular skins you buy with Plat. Tennogen are just Deluxe Skins that on PC you have to buy with money, and on console, can't be discounted. It should be beside your point, because I am not sure what your argument here is. That they should have just released the Heirloom Skins as Deluxe Skins originally? If so, I agree completely, that would have been nice. I am not a pro Heirloom skin person. I am a "I am interested and like to observe and make generalisations about human behaviour in the context (sales marketing, public perception, damage control, statistics, consumer rights, consumer satisfaction, of such situations" type person.

I most explained that in my post. Its a question with potential downsides and upsides. There is always going to be context and framing involved. When we think of negativity, was one hundred percent of the Warframe playerbase negative in an extreme way? Like on a scale of 0 to 10, 10 being most negative, was it 9 to 10? Well no, the Warframe playerbase is hardly ever that in agreement and unison. Was it 60%? If so, out of that 60% what were the ranges of the level of negativity? As far as the scale of 1 to 10. Also at what measure, is it something DE doesn't need to worry or care about? Like hypothetically if it was just 15% of the player base, contrary to some peoples ideas, thats actually still a significant chunk of players, potentially tens of thousands, and even if they are not the majority, its still an important minority to want to appease and reconcile with, especially if it can be done so easily.

One general error, that a lot of people tend to make, when they have negative feelings or critical thoughts against something, is overestimating how much other people feel the same way, or similar, because they often frame the situation as "most people" or the majority feel this way, as a way to heavily insinuate or frame that the people responsible should change to accommodate that. Not necessarily realising that even if its actually a minority and a small minority, many of the same issues, criticisms etc are still valid and important and worth accommodating. However one of the side issues this can also create, is just how they frame and put into context their views with other peoples views, including those with a lot more general apathy and not so strong views, whether positive or negative. Which isn't helped, because often in such discussions, its people with stronger views that often end up clashing and reenforcing perspectives. Anyway. 

So with that, how would you personally frame, the amount of people who feel negative and to what extent as far as thinking the skins are tarnished beyond being redeemable? On what basis as far as lending credit to the accuracy of your assertion? I'm the kind of person, to know enough, to know I don't know enough. I also know that DE has far as more internal tools, for stats, and purchases to likely know much more than I do. They can probably tell how much they mess up or succeed (even if both can occur at the same time too).

Also, on top of all that, it could also be a good idea to try and change the association completely as well. I am not saying they won't. Here's the thing though. If Ember and Mesa get two new Ultimate Deluxe Skins at the end of this year? With pearlescent effects on their bodies, that change with the energy colours you choose, and they both come with Signa... and they cost real money. Then there is a top tier bundle which will give you Regal Aya, Platinum, and some other stuff. You don't think people are going to be like... Oh, so Heirlooms 2.0? This is just Heirlooms but without "whatever they exclude"? 

Alternatively, if enough improvements cover enough of the issues people had against them, despite some individuals beliefs and views, many people will be happy to flip over. Which is, for good or worse, something that happens over and over often enough already. 

You know for some people, the Regal Aya changes weren't enough, and it was still horrible and worse for players and they quit? Did every person who was critical of Regal Aya initially quit? I know I didn't, because for some people, its not as bad or serious as it is for some others. For people, some mountains to die on, are just hills, and so on. 

I doubt this, as much as I would want it, but maybe that could be one of the changes they have planned. As far as Mag and frost Heirloom availability. Maybe they announce two new Warframe Heirlooms, and they make it clear "this bundle will go away after this period, for a long time, but... it will eventually return. In light of that decision, since it would be strange to have some Warframe Heirloom skins, return, and others not, Mag and Frost Heirlooms will also periodically return, as enough of our players made it clear they prefer it this way". For some players, even that wouldn't get rid of the bad taste. For some, its the kind of change that would soften their stance. 

I am not a telepath, I don't know what the magic thresholds or decisions that influence such thresholds will be, of the entire potential playerbase, but there are a few different ideas I know decently well. Like some people are more forgiving than others in such situations, depending on what changes are made. Again, if I have to repeat it for clarity, I am not making any sort of suggestions about what players individually should feel fine with, just emphasising how people can be different. I'm probably going to be the next Dragon Age game when it comes out. I won't preorder it (since I don't agree with preorders, even with games I am sure will be good), even with all my criticisms of Bioware and EA. Since I still like that game series. On the other hand, I also won't ever likely play No Mans Sky. Even though I think what happened with the game is great, as far as how they committed to improving over what was a very questionable start. 

 

[Ersedu]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Mag and Frost Heirlooms will also periodically return,

Like I said above that won’t happen as the fact they put in the description that it was going away forever and never coming back was legally binding 

 

people bought the bundle under the understanding these were one time only and by law that’s binding 

 

so due to the transactional agreement the frost & mag heirloom is legally unable to be brought back much like founders packs 

 

DE couldn’t bring those back if they wanted to without landing in legal troubles 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

10 minutes ago, Ersedu said:

Like I said above that won’t happen as the fact they put in the description that it was going away forever and never coming back was legally binding 

people bought the bundle under the understanding these were one time only and by law that’s binding 

so due to the transactional agreement the frost & mag heirloom is legally unable to be brought back much like founders packs 

DE couldn’t bring those back if they wanted to without landing in legal troubles 

 

I am not a lawyer, and I do not know if you are, my apologies if you are, I may have missed that. I don't read every single page in longer threads. Feel free to also let me know if you are, or if you do have relevant legal knowledge in this regard. To my best understanding, such things are more complicated than that. DE have already made claims that they have gone back on or changed. Also in general, the laws regarding what a business can say and be liable over, are... well again, I would say complex is a decent term. In regards to whats self imposed, legally binding, etc. 

So when people in such threads tell me, that "people brought something under the understanding of XYZ and so if that doesn't happen, DE is legally bound" I am a bit skeptical, because it just seems like a random, anonymous, inconsequential, opinion, that might not hold any weight or credibility. It might be true, it might be accurate, it might be from a place and understanding of legal expertise, knowledge, understanding, but then i usually like if those individuals can explain such situations a little bit further, and use their power of explanation and understanding to give weight and credibility to their claims, especially if they wish to remain an anonymous forum user, Often though, I just find out the person is like most other people and just sharing an opinion based on what they think, but usually what they feel, based on their interpretation. 

You get me? 

Based on what little I do know, the various terms and agreements DE require we consent to or sign in order to play Warframe, to myself, they are not so legally limited when it comes to such items, and how they phrase deals and specials. As there is a lot of stuff covering them, disclaimers, conditions, and so on. They have room to be flexible if they want it. That also being said, there are differences between legal bindings, and self imposed bindings, and the idea of public or consumer good will, positive imaging, branding, even as nebulous as some of those latter ideas can be, as far as factors. I am also being general here, because depending on the specific situation or item, there may be differences. Again though, i am not a lawyer, so I would be happy to be better informed or educated by someone who knows such topics better.  In the mean time, I am skeptical of people who try to claim one outcome or another with any sort of degree of certainty or unwillingness to concede they may not be adequately informed or knowledgeable to make such calls. 

[Ersedu]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

I am not a lawyer, and I do not know if you are

Not a lawyer I just know some things from the internet 

 

but yeah like the founders pack it can’t be brought back due to the transactional agreement and the fact it was sold as one time never coming back 

 

it’s the same reason they have refused to bring founders pack items back for years 

 

Heirloom is essentially able to be treated as founders pack 2 

 

everything in it is gone forever 

it even said in the faq page it’s never coming back which kind of legally seals it in Canadian law under the misrepresentation law for example http://www.ontario.ca/page/your-rights-under-consumer-protection-act

The FTC also has its version https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/advertising-marketing-internet-rules-road

 

Edited January 3 by Ersedu

[IggySnow]

42 minutes ago, Ersedu said:

Like I said above that won’t happen as the fact they put in the description that it was going away forever and never coming back was legally binding 

 

people bought the bundle under the understanding these were one time only and by law that’s binding 

 

so due to the transactional agreement the frost & mag heirloom is legally unable to be brought back much like founders packs 

 

DE couldn’t bring those back if they wanted to without landing in legal troubles 

Legal troubles are debatable, but the main issue is DE losing the trust of players. They cant advertise a product as "going away forever after this date" then bring it back and expect people to be okay with it. Especially when they said they messed up with the pricing, so if they did bring it back at a lower cost it would be an extra "#*!% you" to the people who bought it first.

[PublikDomain]

14 minutes ago, Ersedu said:

Based on the bundle info and the fact it said they were never coming back 

they would legally be unable to bring them back much like founders pack 

 

so they are never coming back unfortunately 

I still find the "legally unable" idea to be pretty flimsy. They EULA says quite clearly that DE can modify virtual goods at their sole discretion without notice or liability to the end user, and that the end user agrees not to make any claims over "an alleged monetary value of game currency or virtual goods lost upon adjustments to the game". DE regularly changes content after it has been sold. For example: through regular balance changes which affect weapons and frames people have bought for plat (which was in turn bought for cash), when they changed the appearance of the Saita Prime Operator suit after people had already paid for the first version, and when they brought back previously "exclusive" "only available with Prime Access" cosmetics in the earliest Prime Unvaultings. They do this kind of thing all the time, and they're allowed to.

But if DE really is legally unable to bring them back, then all the more reason to abandon the Heirloom name and just make plat Deluxe skins with cash Supporter bundles instead. If they can't address criticisms then why open themselves up to those same criticisms over and over again when they don't have to?

33 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

It should be beside your point, because I am not sure what your argument here is.

To me...

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

significantly improved, less bundling, less FOMO elements, cheaper, etc and had two really really good skins for popular Warframes

... means doing the same things as with the Volt and Mesa Sentient skins: a temporary cash-only Supporter-style bundle with the skins and some small things like glyphs alongside plat market bundles and a la carte options that never go away. That's what it means to me for DE to significantly improve Heirlooms. But if...

15 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Heirlooms would still be money purchases, in such cases.

... then I'm not sure we share the same idea of what an improved Heirloom offering would look like. Heirlooms being cash-only is one of the major criticisms of the packs. All plat comes from a money purchase somewhere down the line, so why is the $90 I spent a month before Heirlooms were announced not good enough to buy the contents of the $90 pack? Why are F2P players excluded from participating in these "celebratory" skins even though they work hard for their plat and play an important role in the ingame economy? Etc.

So my overall point is that if DE doesn't address all of the criticisms, then making more Heirlooms is just going to remain a negative affair. If they do address all of the criticisms, but still aren't going to bring back the Mag and Frost Heirloom skins, then they'll just be reopening old wounds and creating more negativity. So if DE truly intends to address the criticisms for future packs, with less bundling, less FOMO elements, cheaper, etc. like you describe, then that's the same as making a Deluxe skin pack like Volt and Mesa's and they should just do that instead. It'd be the same thing but with no baggage.

[Ersedu]

4 minutes ago, IggySnow said:

Legal troubles are debatable

The FTC would disagree they took Fortnite to court over transactions 

[Agall]

9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I still find the "legally unable" idea to be pretty flimsy.

Legal or not, the Heirloom pack is functionally the same as the Founders pack, which remains untouched a decade later. They even gave us bobble heads of Excalibur Prime a couple of years ago for free. DE overall has been shown to be trustworthy to me when they make a promise or correction, especially in comparison to what we've come to expect from video games of any size.

[PublikDomain]

Just now, Agall said:

Legal or not, the Heirloom pack is functionally the same as the Founders pack, which remains untouched a decade later. They even gave us bobble heads of Excalibur Prime a couple of years ago for free. DE overall has been shown to be trustworthy to me when they make a promise or correction, especially in comparison to what we've come to expect from video games of any size.

Then like I said they should abandon the Heirloom name. There's a reason DE won't do any more exclusive weapons and frames like Excal Prime. Maybe that was for a reason?

Regarding trust and promises, I'd much rather DE go back on a bad promise than stick with it out of stubbornness. I'd like to trust that DE will do right by their community, like they did with Prime Resurgence:

Quote

We are opting to adjust our stance for the benefit of the community at large

That is what I want to trust in. Trust that they won't make things right isn't the kind of trust I'd like to have.