The price of Heirloom skins is incredibly disappointing.

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, TeaHands said:

I caved in and bought it lol

I really wanted that Frost Signa.

Honestly, that thing looked fire 

Wait, why are we still talking about this? DE already said they’ll change it in the future… and we can’t complain about the future changes because we have no clue what the changes were…

[Mazifet]

Just now, TeaHands said:

I caved in and bought it lol

I really wanted that Frost Signa.

Those skins do look amazing, along with the signa's. I didn't purchase them, but since I don't play either of those frames I'm not devastated. Sure the signa's would have opened up some fashion potential but I already have plenty of amazing skins like Zephyr Harrier and Equinox Antonym. Now, would I cave in for something like Equinox or Volt heirloom? Absolutely, I'm not that strong lol.

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I get what you are saying (I think), so I won't press this point too much, but you can do more than just say what you think they should do. Or at the very least, understand and acknowledge that other people often frame the future, or various consequences that can happen, not just in what they think should happen, but what can happen regardless, and how that can be different from what they would like to happen. Yes? 

I mean, sure, if you want to frame something as they might do it... so its realistic possibility, and leveraging word meanings against each other? Again sure. It just seems like an odd way to either avoid saying that you don't think they will do something, but maintaining that its possible, in a everything can be possible in the right situation. To me, its almost telling when what can be a simple yes or no answer to something, ends up as more than that. Which again, nothing wrong with that either, especially with wanting to give more context.

I don't know if I entirely follow, but all I'll say is that there's not always a clear-cut yes or no answer. Will Mag and Frost Heirlooms come back? I don't have a crystal ball, so the answer remains "maybe". I'm not sure what's telling about that, other than that I don't have a crystal ball.

8 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Would you sit there and say "nah, not good enough, the Heirloom name is too tarnished, we should all be s critical as last time" or would your stance be softened to the naming convention, because all the other stuff was addressed?

Just like with Prime Resurgence, which I was very critical of on release, if DE actually does address criticisms then I will happily change my tune. DE can salvage the Heirloom name and make it a positive - or at least neutral - thing, just like they did with Prime Resurgence. If they don't want to then it will remain negative and I think it'd be best if DE moved on from the idea as a whole.

8 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

This is what I mean about vague generalisations though as well. If I asked you how many, do hands, does your average healthy human, usually have, according to most medical sources etc, thats relatively simple. You can say two. Of if I asked for fingers on those hands, you could say 10 (or maybe 8, depending on your stance on thumbs). If I asked you how many people play Warframe, you could give me various stats from say Steam. If I asked you how many people brought the Heirloom packs? Or what percentage of Warframe playerbase are negative on them? What would your serious answer be? See, I am pretty open, that I don't know about DE's internal data, or how well Heirlooms sold, its why I use terms like if, and will throw out hypotheticals. A lot of us often frame assertions around data that, plainly they can't actually know, so usually end up just guessing or passing off as fact, or some other sort of appeal, that attempts to cover for the idea, they are just pulling data from nowhere. 

You don't need DE's raw internal data you can't see to draw conclusions from everything else you can see. There's plenty of data we can know and draw from, and none of what I've said is pulled from nowhere. The top Zenith Heirloom Collection currently has a 57% positive "Mixed" rating on Steam. It's only 47% positive by recent reviews. The cheapest Risen collection is 60% positive "Mixed". The middle Celestial collection is 44% positive "Mixed" and only 41% positive by recent reviews. Like, no matter how you split it, by checking reviews, by reading what players say, by listening to what content creators say, by listening to what DE themselves say, yes the reception has been negative. If you want a numerical representation of the sentiment, it seems to be about half and half. It certainly isn't positive, or we wouldn't be here months later still discussing it!

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't know if I entirely follow, but all I'll say is that there's not always a clear-cut yes or no answer. Will Mag and Frost Heirlooms come back? I don't have a crystal ball, so the answer remains "maybe". I'm not sure what's telling about that, other than that I don't have a crystal ball.

 

I can elaborate. Sometimes i meet people who have aversions to certain answers, or guesses. Do you think Warframes are secretly real, and produced by DE, and next year they will send all Warframe fans, trillion dollar futuristic Warframe models, to act as subservient, obedient fun toys? Do you think tomorrow the Moon will wake up, unfurl to be a giant Dragon, and then demand Earth make them the Queen? Maybe, would still be a valid answer, but usually most people will also lean towards either yes or no. No, I don't think that is likely, or yes I don't think that is likely, or it might even be a stronger sense of yes or no. Definitely not, definitely yes. Some yes and no leanings, can still acknowledge maybe as well.

Sure, there is not always a clear cut yes or no answer, but remember, that we are on this current track, because I innocently expressed I didn't think something would happen, and the framing of your response was along the lines of they (DE) should, but what I think will happen, and what DE or anything should do, are two completely different things. Hence some of my responses. You can answer here saying maybe, okay sure. I would almost think you have a slight leaning to either yes or no as well as maybe, but fair enough. Now imagine someone saying "no maybes about it, DE should, therefore you think they should" but maybe, maybe is just more accurate to what you think will happen. Which doesn't reflect any criticisms or points you would make about what DE should do, from what they will do. 

 

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Just like with Prime Resurgence, which I was very critical of on release, if DE actually does address criticisms then I will happily change my tune. DE can salvage the Heirloom name and make it a positive - or at least neutral - thing, just like they did with Prime Resurgence. If they don't want to then it will remain negative and I think it'd be best if DE moved on from the idea as a whole.

 

Yeah pretty much the same on my end as well. Though, for me personally, its sort of a balancing game. DE legit surprised me with how bad Heirloom situation was. I like Warframe, but I like DE and I want them to survive the games industry the way they mostly have been for the last decade. I never really want to see other games fail as comeuppance, but in recent months Warframe, has seen a lot of Destiny 2 players migrate. Personally, I don't really know much about Destiny 2, now do I feel competitive towards it. Maybe Destiny 2 has gotten an influx of Warframe players recently as well, I don't really know. 

Despite being thrown off by how bad Heirloom situation was, everything else from Warframe recently has been great in my eyes. I personally liked Shadows and Duviri this year, plus the QOL updates, a lot of the recent Warframes. Creates almost a frustrating cycle, but of course every individuals cycle can differ a little. If someone hasn't cared for anything or found any recent update good, then the bad starts to stack.

 

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You don't need DE's raw internal data you can't see to draw conclusions from everything else you can see. There's plenty of data we can know and draw from, and none of what I've said is pulled from nowhere. The top Zenith Heirloom Collection currently has a 57% positive "Mixed" rating on Steam. It's only 47% positive by recent reviews. The cheapest Risen collection is 60% positive "Mixed". The middle Celestial collection is 44% positive "Mixed" and only 41% positive by recent reviews. Like, no matter how you split it, by checking reviews, by reading what players say, by listening to what content creators say, by listening to what DE themselves say, yes the reception has been negative. If you want a numerical representation of the sentiment, it seems to be about half and half. It certainly isn't positive, or we wouldn't be here months later still discussing it!

 

Context helps, and data helps context. Otherwise you end up with situations like the Wukong/AOE update, with very misleading "stats", people who aren't good at understanding and interpreting stats, and then many meaningless conversations about stats, numbers, or points that have no bearing in reality and are just the results of speculation, biases and all sorts of faulty pattern seeking humans are extremely liable to. Most people with even pretty normal egos, and general sense of pride, will often mistakenly put too much stock into their own experiences, beliefs, preferences and what they draw on, as far as making conclusions. Not many people are intuitively good at reigning some of those aspects in, usually it requires certain kinds of knowledge, education, critical thinking, to first realise how faulty we can be (well relatively speaking, since comparatively we are also really good as a species, just more in a flat survival sort of way, not as far as being objective). 

I don't doubt none of what you said is pulled from nowhere, just it can also be hard to distinguish various claims and context around some of your statements. For example, there was once a user that fear mongered that Warframe would be a dead game soon, unless they started to create more Kavat armours, since cats were popular, and they really wanted more customisation options. Do you agree that Warframe will be dead soon for that reason? Maybe? Or is it more likely, that particular individual, (assuming they are sincere), does really like Kavats, and desires more customisation, but is also a bit too bias and heavily influenced by they own interests and preferences and projects inaccurate ideas about how much it matters to most other people? 

Like here you just said, it "doesn't matter how you split it", but it literally does matter. You threw a few stats at me, (appreciated) but you should already know, that in a vacuum without context, such data could be relatively meaningless. Good and reliable conclusions from such data, requires a general sort of reference point with Warframe itself and other games. So how do such splits across multiple different ratings and reviews look like. On controversial items are the numbers overall higher. Are the ratings indicative of player frustration animosity or to do with the content itself. For the individual behind the rating is there a difference? How consistent are they in that approach? Do they only habitually negatively rate controversial items/collections.

See, my initial, flawed reaction to some of your stats, as a person critical of the Heirlooms is... disappointed. 57%, 47%, 44%, is a lot more positive than I would hope. I saw flawed because of above, I don't have a lot of context, so maybe some context could modify the following, but generally... I know happy, content, positive people, don't have as much need to affirm how they feel and express it in reviews or ratings. Frustrated, negative, critical, annoyed, etc people generally do though. Like if you were to even take this thread and the other PSA thread, there is a lot more general negativity and criticism. Much higher ratio/percentage of negativity to positivity. So in that context, 57%, 47%, 44% actually looks pretty good. Its "polarising", "split", not a "disaster" or "radioactive" like how some might frame it... Except... Like I emphasised, context. Depending on some other stats, habits, references, you could draw positive or neutral or negative conclusions about them. One of the biggest, will be how much profit DE made off them, whether it was close to projections, whether it was worth the stress and damage control, and how long peoples memories are. For my own guess, I do think people involved, did underestimate how large and severe the negative feedback and backlash would be, and as someone critical of Heirlooms, thats good, as far as loud messages being sent. Since DE isn't a hydra, its also good for any within DE who may have seen it being a sore point but may have been overruled or hushed by others. 

Those ratings and stats should be like 17%, 14%, but also, just because they aren't, doesn't mean they were a very bad idea as well, again, depends on the context. I don't think anything I have said, has implied or suggested that Heirlooms were a positive thing. I'm more about putting things into context. Heirlooms didn't make me mad, or angry, or emotional (not that there is anything wrong with feeling that way in general). I am highly critical of Heirlooms in the context of consumer rights, and being against predatory gaming behaviour and techniques as employed by games companies and developers. So its a bit more ideological and thought driven criticisms and objections. Less emotion filled. Like I said, since I know that, I know that a lot of people who share my general distaste and negativity, won't always be around or care as much, once their emotions run dry. So there are downsides and upsides. One upside, is that often angry emotional people, do tend to get noticed a bit quicker. I suck at writing a quick, angry complaint that will shock DE, which can sometimes be a good thing. As far as consumer and business interactions. That being said, one downside, is those types of people, are usually bad at stats, because they are often thinking emotionally. They over generalise, and make claims they can't back up. The throw out threats and warnings, that have no follow up. As someone who may want real long term consequences and effects, thats bad... but it can also get complicated. 

So we return to square one and what I think was the main point of contention. What happens if/when DE does Heirlooms again. Some of us, are like, they shouldn't, because they will bring on negativity, etc and I agree, especially if they don't change anything (which we already know they intend to, but lets say that the changes aren't that good), but then also so what? DE have already shown that they can survive and live past Heirlooms.

Some posters are like "DE needs to do this, they need to suck up their pride, they need to abandon this, and that" okay, but then what if they don't? What are those people going to do about it? Quit? Some, sure, just like some people quit over Regal Aya, but for many people, even those critical, its never going to be so bad they quit. So I think the posters saying things like "DE needs to do this and that", they are valid takes, and I sympathise with the frustration, but they also seem like really empty threats that are temporary and fleeting and about emotional venting than long term goal setting about motivating DE to be better and actually improve. Its more about comforting the individuals own emotional frustrations than sending a strong consistent message to DE. If people lean onto situations where they are like "DE needs to do this or else" whaat happens when DE calls their bluff? 

Not that I think DE will, because I do think whatever they decide to do around this particular topic, will be improved, but for you example. If they don't make the next "Heirlooms", Deluxe Skins like Mesa and Volt, like we both generally think should (though I am skeptical of actually happening, but would be happy to be wrong), what then? They should, but they didn't/if they don't? This is why I don't personally frame things like that per say. Its not the ultimatum like some of the other posters in this thread, but a lot of critical people have made ultimatums, they can't actually stick to. Generalisations that can hinder their points/feedback rather than strengthen. 

[PollexMessier]

11 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

I find that quote offensive being tarred with the same brush, though yes I can be a pric when pissed off the rest is just wrong, not rich and have no ego so take that toxic attitude and bench it. 

If you're not one of the people that would be mad about DE making the mag and frost heirlooms permanently available and for a reasonable price. Than I'm not talking about you.

If you are. Then offense 100% intended.

[Slayer-.]

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

If you're not one of the people that would be mad about DE making the mag and frost heirlooms permanently available and for a reasonable price. Than I'm not talking about you.

If you are. Then offense 100% intended.

What DE does with it is up to DE, players who can't differentiate your post comment will feed off comments like those and possibly act out on it by adding more posts or passing it on in the game.

I will say this yes DE handled it badly once they realised they did a booboo, they should have released a cheaper pack with just the cosmetics without the extra Aya/Plat but at the time I scraped enough cash together to grab it when it first came out because I like the whole pack overall, yes I would have liked it a bit cheaper but that's what developers do.

 

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-01-04 at 3:10 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Now imagine someone saying "no maybes about it, DE should, therefore you think they should" but maybe, maybe is just more accurate to what you think will happen. Which doesn't reflect any criticisms or points you would make about what DE should do, from what they will do. 

Hmm, I guess I'm not seeing the relationship between "should" and "will", here. I don't think I need to make absolute statements about what DE will do? Again, I have no crystal ball and what will happen isn't my decision to make. All I can say is what I think should happen.

On 2024-01-04 at 3:10 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Context helps, and data helps context. Otherwise you end up with situations like the Wukong/AOE update, with very misleading "stats", people who aren't good at understanding and interpreting stats, and then many meaningless conversations about stats, numbers, or points that have no bearing in reality and are just the results of speculation, biases and all sorts of faulty pattern seeking humans are extremely liable to.

But the context is the "vague generalizations" of sentiment I've been making when referring to the megathreads and so on. If you want data on that context to help further, you can compare how many people leave positive or negative comments and threads, compare upvotes on Reddit and likes on the Forums, compare pack review stats on Steam, listen to DE telling you that the reception was something they regret, etc. But if you won't accept reading feedback to understand the context, and won't accept quantifiable data about that context, or DE's own statements about the negative reception of the packs, or stuff like review data, then what will you accept?

On 2024-01-04 at 3:10 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Like here you just said, it "doesn't matter how you split it", but it literally does matter.

I say "it doesn't matter how you split it", because anything you look at will say the same thing: DE missed the mark. The negative Reddit posts during TennoCon about the packs earned thousands of upvotes. The hundreds of pages of feedback are mostly negative, as you can read for yourself. The packs have low reviews on Steam. DE themselves have said "we missed the mark". What more do you need to accept that they missed the mark?

On 2024-01-04 at 3:10 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

For example, there was once a user that fear mongered that Warframe would be a dead game soon, unless they started to create more Kavat armours, since cats were popular, and they really wanted more customisation options. Do you agree that Warframe will be dead soon for that reason? Maybe? Or is it more likely, that particular individual, (assuming they are sincere), does really like Kavats, and desires more customisation, but is also a bit too bias and heavily influenced by they own interests and preferences and projects inaccurate ideas about how much it matters to most other people? 

If you had 150 combined pages of feedback from hundreds of people in just two threads who were mostly in agreement about the lack of cat outfits leading to the game's demise? And the developer agreeing that the lack of cat outfits is something they missed the mark on and will improve? Then maybe it wouldn't just be the wants of a single particular individual and might deserve some greater consideration than to be dismissed as simple fear mongering and projection...

[Circle_of_Psi]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And the developer agreeing that the lack of cat outfits is something they missed the mark on and will improve?

So, what you're telling me is

If I get 150 combined pages of feedback from hundreds of people in just two threads alone about a request to allow  Kavats to become anthropomorphic in WF, DE might be like "You are right, we missed the mark, gets what's coming next update!"

😃

 

^{_{This is a joke, DE plz don't}}

Edited January 6 by Circle_of_Psi

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

So, what you're telling me is

If I get 150 combined pages of feedback from hundreds of people in just two threads alone about a request to allow  Kavats to become anthropomorphic in WF, DE might be like "You are right, we missed the mark, gets what's coming next update!"

😃

 

^{_{This is a joke, DE plz don't}}

We got waifu frame, why not catgirl frame?

Spoiler

Give the people what they want, DE!

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

10 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Hmm, I guess I'm not seeing the relationship between "should" and "will", here. I don't think I need to make absolute statements about what DE will do? Again, I have no crystal ball and what will happen isn't my decision to make. All I can say is what I think should happen.

 

Just that they are different, but that they also aren't the only ways to think and talk about the future. Also that you can strictly say more than just what you think will happen. If someone asks you for advice, do you only answer in maybe, since you have no crystal ball? Do you tell them what you think should happen, even if you know its not realistic? 

Having an idea about what might happen, and being open to the possibility you might not always be absolutely correct is something people can do. If I asked you, do you think it will rain tomorrow in your area, and if you answer either yes or no, and if you answer yes or no, and I will give you something either you or someone you really care about wants, but if answer in any other way, you won't get anything... You do have to be sincere though in your guess. Will you still answer maybe? Are you unable to answer because you can't be absolutely certain? Or do you think, well... weather forecast said it will, its also been raining a lot today, and yesterday, and seems like a storm is ongoing, and its late in the day, and even though I can't be absolutely certain, I think it will rain tomorrow... so I will say yes, with the acknowledgement I might be wrong... 

No one has psychic powers to see the future, but every day people distinguish between what they think might happen, and often thats different from what they think should happen. Are you incapable of guessing?

 

11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But the context is the "vague generalizations" of sentiment I've been making when referring to the megathreads and so on. If you want data on that context to help further, you can compare how many people leave positive or negative comments and threads, compare upvotes on Reddit and likes on the Forums, compare pack review stats on Steam, listen to DE telling you that the reception was something they regret, etc. But if you won't accept reading feedback to understand the context, and won't accept quantifiable data about that context, or DE's own statements about the negative reception of the packs, or stuff like review data, then what will you accept?

 

Sure but I have specific points already addressing that, that still remain the same, as I have explained in many past replies. I don't just write a lot because I am paid by the hour. Vague generalisations aren't mutually exclusive to any one position. There are many "pro Heirloom pack" people making vague generalisations in an attempt to frame the situation as favourably to whatever they feel or wish. Then again, there are many people who make vague generalisations because they think it gives credit or weight to their points, arguments, or will somehow ensure they get what they want. 90 percent of scholars agree with me. Which scholars? I am sure I can find a study that isn't relevant at all to what I said, and just pretend and claim it is, then say nah ah, when you call me out on that. Are you persuaded yet? 

I don't want context to help me further, I am making a point about how and why people generalise to suit their purpose, even though often, their lack of understanding and objectivity can end up hurting their own goals, and end up becoming counter productive. Well that and also most people, even smart and intelligent people can be bad at putting statistics and data into context unless they have specifically trained and learned to. Even then... Like this is subjective, but you ever notice how some people are more concerned about rushing you stats and facts, without really establishing framework to provide context, when the subject involved something that they happen to have strong opinions on as well? They are a bit less interested and invested in the process of establishing context and how such data was gathered, the more neutral components, the positive variables and factors overlooked, and then letting people guide to their own conclusions, then offering feedback on potentially flawed conclusions reached? There are lots of subjects, where people can have beliefs and understanding about, that they know, if other people learn, and understand well, they will usually come to similar beliefs or understanding about. Their is no need to try and convince them beforehand.

For example, and this is more of an interesting observation, than anything more or conclusive, but on Reddit, this topic, and many others like it, though obviously not that many are of this scale. Regal Aya was comparable, but such threads and "negative" sentiment do tend to be very high, and popular, especially in the first few days. The quality of the criticism in initial post can matter as well, but not always. It can remain that way for a time, but usually the better the criticism and points, tends to become a factor. They will still be popular and engaged with. However, what also starts to happen, is poor or heavily echoed sentiment, from any angle, positive or negative, starts to see downvoting after a while. My general speculation with a little bit of evidence based reasoning, is that regardless of how they may feel about the topic, people also often want to talk about other stuff, and grow weary of people shouting stuff all the time. So in months later, people who are negative/critical or pro/apologetic, making threads about the subject, can very often get negative feedback, downvotes, especially if OP is low quality or seems "annoying/pushy". There are a lot of threads about this topic, some that are similar to others, with massive disparities in reaction. It could be very easy for people to cheery pick threads to suit their "side", but there in the value of context and understanding. You need to adjust for factors like peoples patience thresholds, and how they tackle negativity especially if its repeated to them ad nauseam. Depending on whether they were pro critical, neutral or defensive/apologetic etc the effect can differ slightly as well. Which is also something businesses and people working in businesses can often know as well, because many know they can often outlast unpopular reactions and controversy. This is also something they need to be careful around too, since some also can't afford to rest on laurels. I am oversimplifying here of course. 

Back to Reddit. Its why when I have used in, in this thread (or maybe the other), to make points criticising Heirloom, I was quite transparent. I would try to put it into context, and be clear about how it was my observations. I can't personally track every Reddit thread over the course of weeks. I can say, that generally, in the first few weeks, negative sentiment was high, and specifically in the most popular and heated threads. I also know, that at a certain point of saturation, both negative and positive threads created, will see negative feedback. So those threads may need to be taken with a grain of salt. Either someone taking a negative thread thats gotten negative reaction, trying to use that as evidence that the Heirlooms are popular, would be leaving out a whole lot of important context, just as someone trying to make a positive thread, negatively reacted to, would, for the same reason. Likewise, for a subject like the AOE/Wukong nerfs, whilst there was plenty of negativity/criticism, it wasn't so one sided either. Except a similar trend also applies there as well. Then you can think of something like "review bombings", which unless they actually have a tangible effect on people playing, or spending, are often dismissed, because whilst to the uninformed it can seem bad or serious, to the informed, depending on other factors, its often not that serious an issue and more a tactic by a small minority to seem like a larger issue than it actually is. Review bombing also being a symptom of the same flawed and misunderstanding in thinking, that results in people making certain vague generalisations and rhetoric they think gives their own personal standpoint more weight and credibility. 

Do I need to make the same joke again, about saying how lots of people know this and feel this to be the case, and therefore I am just right? How convenient? 

So its not that I am not accepting feedback. I have literally made similar points about Reddit in this thread, to explain to people, how there is a substantial amount of people with critical views about this, and they likely outnumber the positive (with greater context than what I just wrote). Why would I not accept points I have already made myself? I talking about the importance of context in establishing conclusions, and why sometimes the conclusions drawn aren't accurate or credible, based on the amount of context provided. You can't always just take one statistic over a complicated issue, and think that it conveniently supports your personal viewpoint, and doesn't actually have adequate data to make it. Or that it doesn't result in other more nuanced conclusions or interpretations. Or that you can even have a lot of stats to draw on, but how you don't want to cherry pick some numbers, and they may also need to be put in context, and all the other variables that need to be accounted. Or when taking peoples statements, why and how what they mean can be multifaceted, and not just conveniently something to support your view. Or that sometimes a transparent interpretation that acknowledges unknowns or lack of data, but presents a case/conclusion can have more strength, credibility and weight, than a stronger assertion, that doesn't actually seem to account for several issues or context that should be addressed. 

So I will accept a lot, and also aren't rejecting anything of what you have said. I have just pointed out several issues with it as far as data and why/how some of the conclusions you have reached may not be accurate, and the pros and cons of that. Then how similar processes also often lead people to make far more egregious claims, with escalated stakes, that once again, often are hollow. Just because they aren't actually good at being objective with stats and context, and because they try to weaponise stats or sentiment they think stats can give them (or other sources, like appeals to authority or majority), but they think that their opinion will carry more weight. Not realising that their opinion can carry more weight, but it may depend on how well they can establish context, how objective, sincere their audience is, cooperative conversations versus antagonistic arguments etc. 

 

12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I say "it doesn't matter how you split it", because anything you look at will say the same thing: DE missed the mark. The negative Reddit posts during TennoCon about the packs earned thousands of upvotes. The hundreds of pages of feedback are mostly negative, as you can read for yourself. The packs have low reviews on Steam. DE themselves have said "we missed the mark". What more do you need to accept that they missed the mark?

 

Missing the mark is a pretty simple idea, and not one I am disputing. I am not sure you genuinely understand the point I am trying to make here, but hopefully above helped. 

With the review bombing situation, over AOE/Wukong, did you personally think that it carried a lot of weight? Or did you attempt to apply context around it? Do you think 3000 negative reviews is "Warframe missing the mark" or would you try to give context to that situation? 

With the Heirlooms, I would, personally say that DE did miss the mark, but I wouldn't expect anyone to just take my word for it randomly. I have a lot of context, I could give to support my view. That I already have in this thread, including some of the points you have made, but with much additional points as well. I have been in most of this thread. Do you know why I am not accusing you of being a pro Heirloom player? I have read most of your posts, and am familiar. 

DE have said a lot of things, have you taken their word as fact for all of them? Are they gospel to you now? Or does context not matter. 

Missing the mark like I said, is a really simple way to frame a situation, but its also different from "I went to one Reddit thread last month, and 10 people said they don't like Heirlooms and will quit the game, DE is in big trouble unless they fix everything", and I am not saying that you said the latter, because you obviously didn't. I do hope you can see the difference and see how flawed one is, despite trying to use data. Both are generalisations, one is attempting to give its self more credibility, but not necessarily doing a great job providing context. Even the other, is so generalised as to be vague. One could say something as hollow as "Despite some setbacks, DE has reinforced its overall standing with big updates this year, hitting its stride!" which is just PR speak to sound really good, by being so vague, its almost meaningless. 

Even though I agree they missed the mark, it carries the same energy as the guy who thinks we don't know he reads replies to his bad arguments and frames such subjects as having "winners" and "losers", even though thats the last thing a business like DE would want or claim. Its the context that helps distinguish the two. 

What more do you need to understand? (This is rhetorical, but see how this insinuates that you are ignoring something? Sincere question, do you not understand that I am critical towards the Heirlooms, and if i had to guess, possibly more critical than you? Its the bad framing and application of context poorly, I am critiquing? Also, critiquing because it was pushed on me, as opposed to me looking for it? Since its common enough, its not something I seek, generally, but you know. If people start conversations, I can go with them. 

 

12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

If you had 150 combined pages of feedback from hundreds of people in just two threads who were mostly in agreement about the lack of cat outfits leading to the game's demise? And the developer agreeing that the lack of cat outfits is something they missed the mark on and will improve? Then maybe it wouldn't just be the wants of a single particular individual and might deserve some greater consideration than to be dismissed as simple fear mongering and projection...

 

You don't need 150 combined pages of feedback, DE has already added a few Kavat armours since, but did DE add them because they were afraid of that single users prophecy of being out of business? Also, how many people would generally object to more cosmetics being added to the game? Are those same people, also convinced that Warframe is going to go out of business and be a dead game in less than a year? If DE does go out of business within 2 to 5 years... is it because they attempted too many Heirloom skins, or is it because they didn't add enough Kavat armours? Is 3000 Negative Reviews more significant and influential than 150 pages of combined feedback? Is that 150 pages, filled with 1000 different players? Or 200? 

Is asking questions about them, fear mongering and projection? Isn't that what some of what the pro Heirloom people have been saying about peoples criticisms? 

Here, I will try to make this simple for both of us. In some situations (not this one), bad arguments can as devastating to your own cause, and points, as the "other side" having a good argument. Like in certain political situations. Where good faith are shared goals aren't necessarily valued. In some situations, its less of an issue, if shared goals, and health cooperation is shared, like in a good science lab. Bad arguments aren't good there either, but peoples egos and biases are acknowledged better, usually, and usually left to the side, because the priority is accuracy, validity, understanding and testing for variables, as to consider them, or influence the, for making tests, drawing conclusions and so on. Bad arguments are usually less an issue there, because they are easier to spot, when people are helping each other with a goal and trying to eliminate bad technique and methodology is a priority from everyone involved. However in certain political spaces... bad arguments are actually quite handy, because they can be used as ammo, by those who want to discredit others. Bad arguments can be conflated with bad positions, and bad ideals, and bad objectives. So can good arguments, as far as attempts go, but if the other "side" is already making bad arguments, well that just makes it easier for you. Especially if the people you are trying to appeal to, or win over, aren't necessarily the best at catching on to what you are doing. 

In this thread it doesn't really matter for a few reasons. Its a video game talking about skins, some people might be taking sides, but for most, its... just one topic in one game. Its not some life long ideology. That and DE wants money. Contrary to some apologists views, DE doesn't really care for them defending them, because they aren't really. Not many of them. They are defending their own idea of DE (which, sure). DE ultimately wants money and satisfied players, in a way that best achieves that other goal. However that also doesn't mean they aiming to make every player satisfied. That won't work either, so feedback and what they do with feedback isn't really so simple in a vacuum. Its more complicated. Bad arguments regardless on what the person behind them, feels in this thread, don't really matter in the sense, that to DE, their ideal, is to be able to sift through the bad arguments and rhetoric and distil it, and combine it with other sources of feedback, including some, only they are privy to, to then adjust to that. So its not really a matter of ignoring feedback or taking it all at face value either, They are approaching (ideally), in a less personal, ego driven way, and more of objective based way. Business principals and all that. Not the antagonistic relationship present in say politics (that some fans don't seem to realise), but also not necessarily with the transparency and good faith that might occur in say a good science lab. Business ideals and relationships are its own thing. 

I'm not trying to come at you from an antagonistic, political vantage. To my best understanding, you and I agree on most of the important things, as far as being critical of the Heirlooms and criticisms against unethical or predatory and greedy video game practices. I am more of a science type person, who knows a bit about business. In other situations, talking about the strength and weakness of certain arguments is neutral, and for benefit. Context and accuracy is important, as is the value of being neutral and objective, especially... if you have certain viewpoints (that you may have developed from such data, as opposed to developed emotionally), because they can be vulnerable to the sort of thing, some people do, when they take a sports fan approach or political approach (the side I am on, is always right, no matter what). Even though thats not the situation here, its still how I intuitively tend to communicate. 

So in short, it could be paraphrased as "I think DE missed the mark on Heirlooms, but some of your points were better than some of your.... others. Here's what I mean, and why it matters. Though not even necessarily some of your points, but certain general ideas that overlap, like putting statements and assertions into context.". 

Hope that helps. 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

7 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

So, what you're telling me is

If I get 150 combined pages of feedback from hundreds of people in just two threads alone about a request to allow  Kavats to become anthropomorphic in WF, DE might be like "You are right, we missed the mark, gets what's coming next update!"

😃

 

^{_{This is a joke, DE plz don't}}

 

It worked for Kubrows and Voruna. 

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) not all of them specified the running on all fours thing, so... 

[Circle_of_Psi]

36 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

It worked for Kubrows and Voruna. 

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) not all of them specified the running on all fours thing, so... 

If you look up furry kavats, you should know exactly what I am after :3

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Just now, Circle_of_Psi said:

If you look up furry kavats, you should know exactly what I am after :3

 

I'M NOT BEING TRICKED AGAIN OKAY! 

I already got a life time ban from the Public Library! Sigh. 

[PublikDomain]

12 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

...

Like you summarize, it sounds like we agree about the Heirloom packs themselves so I don't know if there's more to be said there.

But I do still want to ask, why is it you keep asking for me to make a guess about what will happen? Maybe there's some semantic thing we're not on the same page about? For example you ask how I would respond if someone asks me for advice. In that kind of situation I'm certainly not going to tell a person what they will do, as if I can see the future or am ordering them to do something, I will tell them what I think they should do. That's what advice is, isn't it? What they will do is for them to decide and the result is not knowable to me until it happens. So when you ask if I'm unable to make a guess, of course I can make guesses. But why does that guess matter? I don't care what DE will (or in this case, won't) do, I care what they can and should do.

Tangentially, why does this guess have to be a yes-or-no answer? Like where you ask me if it will rain tomorrow. If I can answer honestly I'll tell you "the forecast says there's a 57% chance of rain tomorrow, so it will probably rain". But if you're going to demand that I answer yes or no in order to receive some payment, then I guess I'd give you the answer you want to hear? But it's not going to be an honest or accurate answer and it's going to lack all of the context! What use is there in a prediction like that? That guess is also separate from whether or not I would like it to rain. I can want it to rain tomorrow even if I know that it won't. I can want DE to make changes to Heirloom packs even if I think DE won't do anything, and just because I don't think they won't do anything doesn't mean that my feedback is pointless.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Like you summarize, it sounds like we agree about the Heirloom packs themselves so I don't know if there's more to be said there.

But I do still want to ask, why is it you keep asking for me to make a guess about what will happen? Maybe there's some semantic thing we're not on the same page about? For example you ask how I would respond if someone asks me for advice. In that kind of situation I'm certainly not going to tell a person what they will do, as if I can see the future or am ordering them to do something, I will tell them what I think they should do. That's what advice is, isn't it? What they will do is for them to decide and the result is not knowable to me until it happens. So when you ask if I'm unable to make a guess, of course I can make guesses. But why does that guess matter? I don't care what DE will (or in this case, won't) do, I care what they can and should do.

Tangentially, why does this guess have to be a yes-or-no answer? Like where you ask me if it will rain tomorrow. If I can answer honestly I'll tell you "the forecast says there's a 57% chance of rain tomorrow, so it will probably rain". But if you're going to demand that I answer yes or no in order to receive some payment, then I guess I'd give you the answer you want to hear? But it's not going to be an honest or accurate answer and it's going to lack all of the context! What use is there in a prediction like that? That guess is also separate from whether or not I would like it to rain. I can want it to rain tomorrow even if I know that it won't. I can want DE to make changes to Heirloom packs even if I think DE won't do anything, and just because I don't think they won't do anything doesn't mean that my feedback is pointless.

 

Makes sense to me. 

As far as my questioning, well, one way to reach common ground, is to start with small assumptions and suppositions about reality that we might agree with, and going from there, and also finding common ground can be good for fruitful conversation and dialogue. How we all interpret and frame language and understanding can be important as well, then subsequently help us understand each other more. See in my mind, its almost odd to tell someone what they should do when they ask for advice, because asking for advice isn't always about asking for someone else to just tell you what to do. That being said, I think my example wasn't the best either, and I don't find what you said disagreeable by any means. Different people, give advice differently and all that. 

I thought of a better example, if it might help. Though it depends if you go on walks or not? To save time, I will assume you do. I will also assume, that you may make different decisions, based on what the weather is, and might be? Though feel free to correct any of my assumptions. If you go for a walk, you know its possible the weather will change? Knowing that its possible, do you always say... take an umbrella with you? Or are there situations, where you just consider the likelihood of raining unlikely. Now... considering that rain is unlikely, isn't some psychic claim, or crystal ball assisted certainty. You wouldn't be predicting the future... you are using various tools, to just generally assume something about reality. Right? Or? Of course sometimes, you might also think it could rain and to take extra items with you. There isn't really a should here, but could be. 

Guesses are just estimations and small conclusive assertions that may not be correct or certain. It may lack adequate information or context, but since that can be relative... The ability to acknowledge and distinguish when someone is making an estimation about what could happen, versus the idea of predicting certainty, and distinguishing what people think will happen, versus what they want to happen, is incredibly important being able to understand peoples intent, motives, and attributing values to them, especially ethics. For example, some countries have data around grim/sad statistics, that are tracked, and collected annually. No one should die in road accidents right? Ideally, thats something we can usually all agree with. Does that mean, you think no one will ever die in a road accident again? Maybe as an answer, is sort of potentially valid. Just if you either had to say yes or no, what would you say? Also, you do realise that people who think its likely that more road accidents will happen, aren't claiming to have a crystal ball or any supernatural abilities, and... they also probably don't want that to happen... right? 

It doesn't have to be a yes or no answer, since many answers could also overlap or address a different idea. I think its fine, and even contextually good practice, to not necessarily just limit ones self to yes or no answers. Especially... if they can distinguish the difference between a different persons guesses, versus desires. Just in some contexts it can seem like a forced aversion to commit to, lets say harsh truths or realities. 

I am not personally looking for any sort of answer that will appeal to me, or want to hear. Just your answers to certain questions can seem evasive at times, as if you only frame it around what should happen, even if what should happen isn't likely going to happen. Like do you think children should starve? Again, my assumption is that you don't think they should. Will it probably happen? Well yeah, unfortunately, because starvation and famine are still large issues that effect parts of the world, and even just negligence is a thing. Its also not a matter of having a crystal ball either. Knowing something bad/tragic will happen, doesn't mean a person wants it to happen. Also, in some cases, there is still some guess work, contextually, but also a lot of knowledge, data and information. Yes or no types answers can be useful, but if the answer is yes, then we acknowledge and understand thats a problem, that needs fixing. (Well in the last examples context). 

If DE did what they should, this thread wouldn't exist. Therefore what they should do in the future, might not happen either. Hence why people may make discussion points around that, as I did. 

I want to apologise that some of my examples are a bit grim. Its really hot and humid where I am, so all my examples are a bit morbid for some reason. Also, I could have been more concise, especially because one of your last points, you say "I can want DE to make changes to Heirloom packs even if I think DE won't do anything" you do realise that this is essentially what I said, right? Just the order is changed around a little, in that I lead with the "I don't think DE will do this, but they should", I also don't think your feedback is pointless. I am replying to you, but you quoted me to start this? My general assumption, and correct me if I am wrong, but you interpreted my thinking DE won't do what you suggested, as me endorsing that DE shouldn't? Even though I said they should (albeit, making a distinction between what they should do, and what they probably will do), which is also why we ended up discussing should, could, would etc. 

Hope that makes sense. Cheers. 

[(XBOX)Muevelos]

Personally, it was a 10 year pack, so it's not the standard, price was high but understandable given the circumstances. It isn't the norm. My issue is the price of Regal Aya, that's the real concern.

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2024-01-06 at 5:45 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

I'M NOT BEING TRICKED AGAIN OKAY! 

I already got a life time ban from the Public Library! Sigh. 

[Ersedu]

To be honest this whole thing would be a non issue if people had set aside money for whaling 

it’s what I do most money goes towards bills and stuff some towards savings and then I put 5 or 10 dollars aside each pay in the whale fund so I can whale on games from time to time it builds up over time and people had months for the heirlooms 

 

added bonus being the whale fund can be used as a second emergency fund as well should the need arise 

Edited January 11 by Ersedu
Edited to elaborate

[stormy505]

I wonder if they'll actually change prices. It sounds like a ton of people complained about the price but still caved so... Eh. Voting with your wallet took place and so many people said "I'm disgusted but also shut up and take my money."

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, stormy505 said:

I wonder if they'll actually change prices. It sounds like a ton of people complained about the price but still caved so... Eh. Voting with your wallet took place and so many people said "I'm disgusted but also shut up and take my money."

ngl im somewhat sceptical on whether or not they will even *do* another heirloom pack considering the whole occasion was "warframe is 10 years old now".

if they start doing it every year that kinda defeats the purpose of a time-limited special "10 year anniversary supporter pack" which is what this was supposed to be. kinda like the sequel to the founder's pack. 

[makaloff95]

i managed to get the full pack luckily, and in all honestly the only thing i have a problem with is it being "buy now or its gone forever". I understand its essentially a 2nd Founders package, but i heavily dislike seeing digital assets being removed forever, playing on peoples fomo with digital assets that can be reproduced at any time is extremly predatory and sadly its standard practice in the industry these days. However, im willing to give DE a benefit of a doubt since its very rare for them to pull something like this and i hope it stays that way. Only thing i hope for is that future packs wont be "buy now or gone forever" deal.

[stormy505]

16 hours ago, SDGDen said:

ngl im somewhat sceptical on whether or not they will even *do* another heirloom pack considering the whole occasion was "warframe is 10 years old now".

if they start doing it every year that kinda defeats the purpose of a time-limited special "10 year anniversary supporter pack" which is what this was supposed to be. kinda like the sequel to the founder's pack. 

Not one for one heirloom, but I could definitely see a spiritual successor to heirloom every tennocon. Cause just gauging from talking to people, a lot of people complained, but also a LOT of people bought the pack. There's a definite interest in paying higher prices for good skins. And I wouldn't be shocked if someone at DE saw that and wanted to do something with that.

[Ersedu]

9 hours ago, stormy505 said:

Not one for one heirloom, but I could definitely see a spiritual successor to heirloom every tennocon

That already exists it’s called the Tennocon digital pack 

 

different items every year